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Who read this mailing list?

 [1/46] from: ale870:gm:ail at: 22-Nov-2007 22:24


Hello, I was following all the discussions made in these days in this mailing list, and... I asked to myself: is there any RT member (official member) that read these emails? I think it could be very important, since I think a company should have to read the suggestions, the opinions of the people that use the product. Well, who follows this email of RT people? //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [2/46] from: tim-johnsons:web at: 22-Nov-2007 13:38


On Thursday 22 November 2007, Alessandro Manotti wrote:
> Hello, > > I was following all the discussions made in these days in this mailing > list, and... I asked to myself: is there any RT member (official member) > that read these emails?
<chuckle> We're waiting to find out with bated breath. </chuckle> The PL that I consider an alternative to rebol is newlisp. If you look at their forum, you will see that Lutz Miller - the developer of newlisp - participates almost daily in the community. Tim

 [3/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 4:42


On Thursday, 22-Novenber-2007 at 13:38:27 Tim Johnson wrote,
>On Thursday 22 November 2007, Alessandro Manotti wrote: >> Hello,
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
>their forum, you will see that Lutz Miller - the developer of newlisp - >participates almost daily in the community.
I had a quick look at its FAQ and the thought struck me. Would it understand this? (hello "world" 9 $80.00 7.6.5.4 3x2 10:20 1-Jan-2001 here-there.not) etc... And of course, is there a View equivalent? --- Carl Read.

 [4/46] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 23-Nov-2007 7:34


Tim Johnson napsal(a):
> On Thursday 22 November 2007, Alessandro Manotti wrote: >> Hello,
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> participates almost daily in the community. > Tim
Noone reads ML this days probably. Don't get me wrong, although we are used to, ML is absolutly arcane way of communication, slow. So, now, in opposite, just tell me, - who speds x hours daily his time communicating with developers on instant messaging with instant file sharing, bugbase, private channels, devbase, checklists, etc.? - Carl. So, those who want, spend their time on much more efficient channel than is ML. And as for ML, there are others, who monitor it, and filter it for Carl, if something important is said. And be sure this thread will get his notice :-) Petr

 [5/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 8:42


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 7:34:18 Petr Krenzelok wrote,
>Tim Johnson napsal(a): >> On Thursday 22 November 2007, Alessandro Manotti wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 16>>
>Noone reads ML this days probably. Don't get me wrong, although we are >used to, ML is absolutly arcane way of communication, slow.
But for discussions, slow is good. Thoughtful responses are those which have been mulled over for a few hours or days. Instant ones are off-the-top-of-the-head ones. Useful if someone's already given the topic a lot of thought, but not if it's a new topic to them. And this ML has a nice, searchable, public archive. (Or 3.) Can you point me to archived discussions on these other channels regarding, say, which OSs get R3 first, and which are to follow. Or one discussing how the 'hybrid' closed/open-source approach was arrived at and why it's thought it'll work. And what the definition of 'working' will be under it. And I'm sure others can think of other discussions they'd like to read through too - if they're available. -- Carl Read.

 [6/46] from: ale870:gma:il at: 23-Nov-2007 8:12


ML or not ML.... I'm obliged to use ML since I have not an account in AltMe, and AleMe does not work well behid firewall and proxies. Even because I work in a company for all the day and I cannot use AltMe (only port 80 (http) is open, and AleMe does NOT use such port). So, ML is my only feasible solution. Maybe, someone could create a simple Altme like system that works in standard http protocol.... On Nov 23, 2007 7:34 AM, Petr Krenzelok <petr.krenzelok-seznam.cz> wrote:
> Tim Johnson napsal(a): > > On Thursday 22 November 2007, Alessandro Manotti wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 29>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [7/46] from: ale870:gm:ail at: 23-Nov-2007 8:13


And... why not forums? THey exist to make discussions.... (and are available to everybody, even to the people that don't know Rebol! Forums are publicity free of charge ;-) ) On Nov 23, 2007 8:12 AM, Alessandro Manotti <ale870-gmail.com> wrote:
> ML or not ML.... > I'm obliged to use ML since I have not an account in AltMe, and AleMe does
<<quoted lines omitted: 49>>
> http://sguish.wordpress.com > http://laccio.wordpress.com
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [8/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 8:42


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 8:13:46 Alessandro Manotti wrote,
>And... why not forums? THey exist to make discussions.... (and are available >to everybody, even to the people that don't know Rebol! Forums are publicity >free of charge ;-) )
There have been forums, but they never really became popular. Hmmm - well... http://www.reboltalk.com/ Seems it's active these days! That do you, Alessandro? -- Carl Read.

 [9/46] from: petr::krenzelok::seznam::cz at: 23-Nov-2007 9:00


Carl Read napsal(a):
> On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 7:34:18 Petr Krenzelok wrote, >> Tim Johnson napsal(a):
<<quoted lines omitted: 25>>
> And I'm sure others can think of other discussions they'd like to read through too - if they're available. > -- Carl Read.
I work as chief of IT, I run various meetings, team meetings/projects for ten years, and what you try to suggest is - we should abandon meetings, because the communication is instat, and you don't have time to think about what you want to say, and you can't have transcript of who said what? :-) Meeting is for those who meet, so sorry for others not being present. The same goes for AltME. You are there, or you are not there :-) (there is some transcript of web-public rebol3 world though, although not threaded ...) Look, historically, although rather young, I remembe BBS, then newsnet, then ML, then IRC, ICQ, IOS, AltME, web forums. Each way of communication has its (dis)advantages. You have to use them for some time to "feel" the difference. E.g., I remember old IOS Developer's time. There is nothing out there even remotely aproaching the collaborative meeting, with auto syncing, private or public. That was whole space to breath. ML is not even 5% of that feeling. Besided that, I am used to be on several MLs, I like email. But, I have friends, who will not subscribe to any ML to just have one question answered. For them it is the same barrier as for some ppl to join AltME. Those ppl will prefer anonymous web forums. Everyone of us has its own preferences, but imo RT, trying to quickly colaborate on R3 development, chose the right channel - ML is too slow. Petr

 [10/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 12:43


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 9:00:58 Petr Krenzelok wrote,
>I work as chief of IT, I run various meetings, team meetings/projects >for ten years, and what you try to suggest is - we should abandon >meetings, because the communication is instat, and you don't have time >to think about what you want to say, and you can't have transcript of >who said what? :-)
No - I was just pointing out email's strength. (Though I fail to see what's wrong with abandoning meetings;) AltME and such I'm sure are good for those who're developing R3 or are communicating with others on REBOL-based projects, but if there's no way for those outside to know what's happening and why, (especially the 'why'), then you'll have to expect a lot of uninformed questions from the uninformed public. Public summaries of any major discussions (that have reached a decision!), perhaps? -- Carl Read.

 [11/46] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 23-Nov-2007 10:24


Carl Read napsal(a):
> On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 9:00:58 Petr Krenzelok wrote, >> I work as chief of IT, I run various meetings, team meetings/projects
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>> > No - I was just pointing out email's strength. (Though I fail to see what's wrong with abandoning meetings;)
haha, that made my day, man :-) I will remember that - "what is wrong with abandoning meetings" :-) it would fit for most of them :-)
> AltME and such I'm sure are good for those who're developing R3 or are communicating with others on REBOL-based projects, but if there's no way for those outside to know what's happening and why, (especially the 'why'), then you'll have to expect a lot of uninformed questions from the uninformed public. >
yes, that is that. I can see it as not an AltME problem, but communication problem. Most ppl here might feel excluded from the process. My personal belief was, that Carl's blog should serve that purpose, but those would have to be more frequent. And that is not the only problem. Even if Carl blogs, it just is not enough, because of one factor - you simply don't know WHAT to expect, and WHEN to expect. That is why I was for milestones, and often releases. I think the team understands that, and that they are putting finishing touches to DevBase in order for others to be part of R3 soon ;-) Petr

 [12/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 12:43


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 10:24:54 Petr Krenzelok wrote,
>> No - I was just pointing out email's strength. (Though I fail to see what's >wrong with abandoning meetings;) >> >haha, that made my day, man :-) I will remember that - "what is wrong >with abandoning meetings" :-) it would fit for most of them :-)
Glad to be of service. ;-)
>> AltME and such I'm sure are good for those who're developing R3 or are >communicating with others on REBOL-based projects, but if there's no way for
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
>only problem. Even if Carl blogs, it just is not enough, because of one >factor - you simply don't know WHAT to expect, and WHEN to expect.
Some people are just not natural bloggers, whereas others seem to emit reams of posts to the point where you wonder if it's all they ever do.
>That >is why I was for milestones, and often releases. I think the team >understands that, and that they are putting finishing touches to DevBase >in order for others to be part of R3 soon ;-)
The problem with often releases of a language is that programmers have a shifting target to deal with. There would need to be versions defined as stable releases. Will DevBase be just a REBOL program, or accessable via a web-browser as well? For the casually interested, via the browser is really a must. (Even if only read-only.) -- Carl Read.

 [13/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 23-Nov-2007 12:29


Consider that AltMe is a tool for Rebol people. If (example) I was a new developer, and I wish to know more info about a language, I usually go in the forums, I will not look for AltMe! Forums & co help Rebol to talk about itself to the people that don't know Rebol! Furthermore, if I use (or I want to use) Rebol only for hobby, or I have problems to be in internet all over the day (more: what happen if I'm to the other side of the globe? 10 hour before or later than you...) I will never be able to follow real-time discussions in AltMe. Meetings? Well I do the meetings with my colleagues, but we are in the same location, and we take an appointment, and we make the meeting for 1 hour or more, not for 24x7. Even if Altme is a powerful tool, I think it creates a kind of isolation, a kind of barrier, a block for every other user (new programmer, causal developer, developers that cannot use internet for all the day, people that are to the other side of the Earth, etc...). I follow Carl's blog (even if the news are very few, it is not frequently updated), but I even want to discuss, say something, etc... I say again that RT should have to open an official forum, used by everybody, with several items ("What's new", "Carl's information", "beginner area", etc....). On Nov 23, 2007 11:44 AM, Carl Read <carl-cybercraft.co.nz> wrote:
> On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 10:24:54 Petr Krenzelok wrote, > >> No - I was just pointing out email's strength. (Though I fail to see
<<quoted lines omitted: 35>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [14/46] from: wang:rebol:it at: 23-Nov-2007 12:54


> Even if Altme is a powerful tool, I think it creates a kind of isolation, a > kind of barrier, a block for every other user (new programmer, causal > developer, developers that cannot use internet for all the day, people that > are to the other side of the Earth, etc...). >
...or you have a 64 bit processor with Linux! The new computers out there are all 64 bit and a few people will invest money in a 32 bit processor based out of pruduction/support PC. In medio stat virtus (the virtue is in the average/middle), the ideal solution should be a full featured client with the chance to use web or mail just to read and submit messages. Anyway I understand that the disadvantage of this solution is lack of a trusted authentication and security over web/email. As this topic was met too: threading in AltMe could be done if double clicking a message a reference to it is inserted in the typed message but this will probably need big changes both server and client side and, last but not least, in the existing messages archives spread around all those clients out there. Zaijian, Mario

 [15/46] from: ale870::gmail::com at: 23-Nov-2007 13:14


64 bits... good point! To rebollist and RT: do you know if a R3 version for 64 bit will exist? On Nov 23, 2007 12:54 PM, Mario Cassani <wang-rebol.it> wrote:
> > Even if Altme is a powerful tool, I think it creates a kind of > isolation, a
<<quoted lines omitted: 22>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [16/46] from: dhsunanda:gma:il at: 22-Nov-2007 1:41


Alessandro:
> I was following all the discussions made in these days in this mailing list, > and... I asked to myself: is there any RT member (official member) that read > these emails?
I'm not sure who counts as offical, but Gregg, Petr, and Gabriele all have close connections with RT, and they are the three most frequent posters to this mailing list: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-author-ranking.r You'll need to be logged onto REBOL.org to see that list. And note that it may not show a *person's* most recent postings: it shows postings by munged email address, and most of us have had different ML email addresses at various times. ***
> I will never be able to follow real-time discussions in AltMe.
Nobody can! We all have to sleep. What you can do is read the "web public" groups of the REBOL3 Altme World (that's the main developers' Altme world -- nothing to do with the R3 development). Those groups are archived here: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/aga-groups-index.r?world=r3wp And if you want to ask a question about any of the issues raised there, please do so on the ML. Plenty of us are on both, so discussions should be able to drift happily between the various REBOL community channels. *** Worth noting too that the ML is archived on REBOL.org.... http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-index.r ....And you can have an RSS feed when new postings get published on the archive -- so even non-ML members can easily stay abreast of ML discussions. http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=rss-help *** There are a range of REBOL Community communication channels -- Altme, ML, REBOLtalk. GoogleGroup, (probably more), because we are a diverse group with different priorities and expectations. The channels that thrive will be the ones that contain the more fascinating discussions....So ask intriguing questions on the ML, and watch the community flock to answer them :-) Sunanda.

 [17/46] from: tim-johnsons:web at: 23-Nov-2007 7:36


On Thursday 22 November 2007, Carl Read wrote:
> >The PL that I consider an alternative to rebol is newlisp. If you look at > >their forum, you will see that Lutz Miller - the developer of newlisp - > >participates almost daily in the community. > > I had a quick look at its FAQ and the thought struck me. Would it > understand this? (hello "world" 9 $80.00 7.6.5.4 3x2 10:20 1-Jan-2001 > here-there.not) etc...
PLs each have their own strengths and weakneses, and one of rebol's strengths is the variety of datatypes and how they can be applied, one of newlisps strengths is the involvement of the developer IMHO
> And of course, is there a View equivalent?
of course there is and it appeals to me more than view (I never have used view) My needs are to a great degree based on the fact that I own and operate a small business with two partners. What I do has to in some degree mesh with my partners and I have a business plan that takes that into account. My choices come down to the mixture of the pragmattic, the contractual and the aesthetic and should they differ from yours, they don't make mine better than yours or vice versa, just different. My needs and my opinions should they differ from someone else here are because my needs and my opions are different, not to be construed to be better. However: I have always got the impression that RT promises more than it delivers and sometimes I get the feeling that someone has come down from a mountain with some golden tablets, dropped them at our feet for all do decipher and them gone back into the clouds. Newlisp *seems* more democratic to me. IMHO That's all I have to say on this subject. tim

 [18/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 23-Nov-2007 17:46


I'm studying newLisp and seems quite interesting. There are a lot of concepts similar to Rebol and, obviously some pro and cons. But it seems quite interesting.... On Nov 23, 2007 5:36 PM, Tim Johnson <tim-johnsons-web.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 22 November 2007, Carl Read wrote: > > >The PL that I consider an alternative to rebol is newlisp. If you look
<<quoted lines omitted: 29>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [19/46] from: moliad::gmail at: 23-Nov-2007 12:48


> > So, those who want, spend their time on much more efficient channel than > is ML. And as for ML, there are others, who monitor it, and filter it > for Carl, if something important is said. And be sure this thread will > get his notice :-)
hum... I believe you just did ;-) -MAx

 [20/46] from: moliad:gmai:l at: 23-Nov-2007 13:00


bottom line for me... is.... drum roll... it has to be someone's job to handle all the i/o between RT inside and out. Marketing, web, channels, community, etc. Maybe an evangelist, maybe an official marketing person, but someone who can multithread discussions, network people on either side of one, reply to questions, and then resume those replies into new content, FAQs, Docs, and all. if its not someone's job (or responsability) then its no one's. Officially, an eon ago, when RT had money to hire employes, it used to be like this... they even had official support personel - RT which helped, even send snippets... or network with the people inside to find real answers, even things like "Holger says NO, don't ask again". ;-) The fact that the people inside only have one channel to speak to in order to receive and reply questions from hundreds of sources, makes it extremely effective. the front guy filters and keeps only the new questions, and accumulates all the rest for further reference. how many times have people here answered the same question on a few topics, when we can all point new people to the rebol.org archives instead. -MAx On Nov 23, 2007 12:48 PM, Maxim Olivier-Adlhoch <moliad-gmail.com> wrote:

 [21/46] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 23-Nov-2007 19:20


> However: I have always got the impression that RT promises > more than it delivers and sometimes I get the feeling that
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> democratic to me. IMHO That's all I have to say on this subject. > tim
I have the same impression but I think that REBOL is refocusing to a different business model just to comply with the expectations of the userbase and to get some help. I do not know how many people are still developing rebol at Rebol Tech but my feeling is that few people are there and Carl must face the common problem which all of us have: make money. Few resources mean that Carl must move them back and forth to different projects to avoid that the whole ship sinks. The new business model includes many foreign cooperations and openess to not be slowed by the low resources of the main company. The programming world, the devices, the software in the year 2007 are so different that RebolTech could not keep the step without this change. I believe in Carl and his vision, I found now elsewhere many concepts he talked about years ago. Differently from many people I have know he created something and despite being constantly in late with the official track he release and he is going to release a great product. As users we have only to keep the faith in those moments where we feel empty and we have the desire to move avay. Obviusly I won't do like I did with Amiga anymore: I'll take a look to the other world just in case the whole project will fail (for this reason I am reading about NewLisp) but I feel it won't. Giuseppe Chillemi

 [22/46] from: tim-johnsons:web at: 23-Nov-2007 9:48


On Friday 23 November 2007, Giuseppe Chillemi wrote:
> > However: I have always got the impression that RT promises > > more than it delivers and sometimes I get the feeling that
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> different business model just to comply with the expectations of the > userbase and to get some help.
I believe that Carl S has a business plan that is going to work for him. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Rebol is going to be in my future for a long time. tim

 [23/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 23-Nov-2007 20:47


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 7:36:53 Tim Johnson wrote,
>On Thursday 22 November 2007, Carl Read wrote: >> >The PL that I consider an alternative to rebol is newlisp. If you look at
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
>strengths is the variety of datatypes and how they can be applied, one of >newlisps strengths is the involvement of the developer IMHO
It's open-source, (and probably has been from day one?), which I'm sure changes completely where the stress is applied to the creator of a language. But regardless, their personality (and world-view) will always effect how they interact with the community that builds up around their language.
>> And of course, is there a View equivalent? >of course there is and it appeals to me more than view (I never have used >view)
Well, so far, the only two screenshots I've found are the two on the front page. I've since found this... http://newlisp.org/guiserver/ which gives a list of its GUI/graphic modules, but not a screenshot among them. Are they just calls to the OS's GUI resources? As if so, then they're not a View equivalent. As to View, it's where I start any REBOL program that's to use it for its GUI. Developing it in tandem with the main code helps to ensure they don't get out of synch with each other.
>My needs are to a great degree based on the fact that I own and >operate a small business with two partners. What I do has to in some
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>else here are because my needs and my opions are different, not to >be construed to be better.
Needs can differ and still all be valid, but not necessarily opinions! (See the 'Looking up the power continuum' thread.) My rule of thumb with discussions along these topics is that "The customer is always right." Which doesn't quite mean what most think it means, but instead that if your product or service isn't reaching the market-share as you hoped it would, then it's not the customers who're wrong, but your product or service or its marketing or something you (and not the customers) control.
>However: I have always got the impression that RT promises more than >it delivers and sometimes I get the feeling that someone has come down >from a mountain with some golden tablets, dropped them at our feet for >all do decipher and them gone back into the clouds. Newlisp *seems* more >democratic to me. IMHO
You're right there, customer...
>That's all I have to say on this subject.
Quitter! ;-) -- Carl Read.

 [24/46] from: ale870:gma:il at: 23-Nov-2007 22:38


I want to use Rebol in my future, but I want to hear not promises, but a specific pragmatic plan. I will "believe" in Rebol but RT must give me some reliability :-) On Nov 23, 2007 7:48 PM, Tim Johnson <tim-johnsons-web.com> wrote:
> On Friday 23 November 2007, Giuseppe Chillemi wrote: > > > However: I have always got the impression that RT promises
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [25/46] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 23-Nov-2007 23:22


Alessandro, this is the behaviour of Rebol Tech. It is a fact and you must not fight it. Carl has kept many promises, it didn't in the promised time frame but he did. Accept this fact. The only thing you can do otherwise is to start to cooperate into programming using DevBase. Don't be negative, it does not help the project or us. Using an american phrase, I think Rebol has "The Pedal on the Metal": low money and few developers. They can't accellerate anymore without our cooperation. If you love Rebol help them the way they need. Giuseppe Chillemi

 [26/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 23-Nov-2007 23:35


Hello Giuseppe, I offered my help to RT in order to help them to make publicity to Rebol in Italy, and this is the reason I opened a blog some moths ago (see http://sguish.wordpress.com), and now I "expanded" it creating "http://www.sguish.net". So I was starting to create a Rebol reference portal in Italy. I directly wrote to Carl in order to propose a collaboration, but I got no answer. So, what do you suggest? On Nov 23, 2007 11:22 PM, Giuseppe Chillemi <gchillemi-aliceposta.it> wrote:
> Alessandro, this is the behaviour of Rebol Tech. It is a fact and you > must
<<quoted lines omitted: 70>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [27/46] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 24-Nov-2007 1:08


I have already read about your gentle offer but problably is not what they actually need. R3 needs developer and after that promoters. I suppose you offered you cooperation to early but your blog is just a good start. There is a Sicilian phrase eplaining this situation: "If you bring the horse to the water when the horse does not ask for water you will have to bring it there again", in Italian Words "Se porti un cavallo a bere quando non ha sete glielo dovrai riportare". I have read everywhere to have a personal opinion about the release date: Rebol 3 won't be complete for another one and half year. Expect a alpha/beta during the end of the winter/start of the spring; all protocols will be ready by the end of 2008/start of 2009 and then the new VID will see the light. In 2009 rebol will face the major debugging work and in 2010/2011 many external modules will be integrated into Rebol new open architecture. If you want we can bet on my release dates and If we will be into the Mailing List in 2011 and I'll be right you will owe me a beer and pizza ! (Only italian pizza, ok ?) Are you aware about how many years Rebol took to reach 2.7.x ? Giuseppe Chillemi

 [28/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 24-Nov-2007 0:48


On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 23:35:52 Alessandro Manotti wrote,
>Hello Giuseppe, I offered my help to RT in order to help them to make >publicity to Rebol in Italy, and this is the reason I opened a blog some
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>collaboration, but I got no answer. >So, what do you suggest?
My suggestion would be to keep doing it for yourself and the few readers it may have, and just hope that R3 will appear reasonably soon and will be good and make your time in the wilderness, so-to-speak, worth it. Such things take time to gain momentum. I'd say re-evaluate it after you've been blogging a year. Now there either will be a bit of buzz around REBOL when R3 appears, or there won't be. But let's assume there is, in which case you'll already have a site and blog up and running that'll both benefit from the buzz as well as being able to contribute to it. There's no guarantees of success when you start something like you're doing. A few of us here have done similar things. (Petr for instance partly ran a Czech/English news-site about the Amiga in that computer's dying days. Nothing they could do either about the way the Commodore was steering the ship!) Now you mightn't get any obvious support from RT, but there's nothing wrong with independant news sources/sites, (and they're in fact the preferred type), and it's nice to feel you can openly speak your mind, yes? Much harder to serve two masters - as in readers as well as the company you're blogging about. -- Carl Read.

 [29/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 24-Nov-2007 0:48


On Saturday, 24-Novenber-2007 at 1:08:04 Giuseppe Chillemi wrote,
>I have read everywhere to have a personal opinion about the release >date:
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>many external modules will be integrated into Rebol new open >architecture.
That's a very long three months... -- Carl Read.

 [30/46] from: anton:wilddsl:au at: 24-Nov-2007 13:24


Hi Alessandro, Maybe this will help you to use AltME. I paraphrase Steeve from 18-Oct-2007 in AltME Rebol3 world: "To use Altme behind a proxy (which uses user/pass authentication) is use 2 linked apps: "Proxifier" [Windows shareware] to force Altme to use a proxy and "HTTP Tunnel" to bypass the local restrictions of the company's proxy." Regards, Anton. Alessandro Manotti wrote:

 [31/46] from: ale870:gmai:l at: 24-Nov-2007 15:49


Giuseppe, I hope you are wrong. If you are right I will pay you an italian pizza, and I will even offer a wonderful Sicilian icecream for dessert (or you prefer a "granita con brioche"?) (then choose the beer!). But I can say that I cannot wait so much time to create a good RIA, since the time goes, and I haven't so much time. If you are right, I will not here on 2010/2011. For now, I bought a Rebol command license (more than 300$) some years ago (no need to upgrade, since no new product was in the market to be upgraded :-( ) and I'm using it to make some script to simplify my job. My dream was RIA, and my dream is not yet realized. I'm waiting for... (tic-tac-tic-tac....) On Nov 24, 2007 1:42 AM, Carl Read <carl-cybercraft.co.nz> wrote:
> On Saturday, 24-Novenber-2007 at 1:08:04 Giuseppe Chillemi wrote, > >I have read everywhere to have a personal opinion about the release
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [32/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 24-Nov-2007 16:15


Thank you Anton, but the company where I work makes a monitoring of the connections. If they "see" that I use https tunnelling over a specific server, they could decide to close it. Tunnelling is a technique that some people use to bypass the proxies. Just a question: do you know why Altme does not use port 80 (standard http)? Note: I wll get more info about shareware application ;-) Thank you! On Nov 24, 2007 3:24 AM, Anton Rolls <anton-wilddsl.net.au> wrote:
> Hi Alessandro, > Maybe this will help you to use AltME.
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [33/46] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 24-Nov-2007 17:09


> >I have read everywhere to have a personal opinion about the release > >date:
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> >Rebol new open = architecture. > That's a very long three months...
Carl (And Alessandro), I want to support my opinion: Rebol is currently on Alpha, or pre-Alpha Stage. The modules structure and documentation has just been released (see http://www.rebol.net/r3blogs/0105.html) DevBase, the most importan collaboration structure for developing Rebol 3 is just here (see http://www.rebol.com/article/0344.html) There is only one protocol ready: the http protocol The new VID is on only on Carl's mind We are at the end of year 2007. Rebol is a Big project, a programming language that should be build to be intefaced with the current software scenarios available in the world. In this situation Rebol3/Core will need at least 3 months to leave the pre-alpha stage and go alpha. Then will come the time for the other protocols to be implemented and debugged. This mean another 5-7 months. We are at the end of the summer 2008. Thinking in parallel, VID will be structured and engineered during this time. A first implementation of the new VID will start after core with protocols will go beta. Should we think that 1 month is enough for a full GUI system ? No, it will take surely 6 months to reach the beta stage. We are in the year 2009. In the meantime core will be debugged and reach a release state. Modules, as you have read in the blog, are still a prototype. Expert people will start experiencing with them during the alpha/beta stage. Fully modules won't be ready until 2009. Then "normal people" will start interesting into moudules. They will need to learn how to use them and start programming. Modules from the masses will come at start of 2010 and 2011. This big project will need a debugging stage, isn't it ? The first available year I see after the beta stage of core/vid system is 2009. Don't forget that it will be the time for other projects to start: - Unicode - Parallel Tasks - XML - Firefox/Internet Explorer R3 Plugin - Fully Documentation For Core/VID/SOA Architecture and examples - Full SDK/Command/Encap - Multi Platform releases The year 2009 will end and we are in 2010. The project starts to be mature for the release of components for Rebol and software based on the new system. 2010-2011 Seems the time-frame for the firsts maturity and usabilty of Rebol3 in big projects. Rebol Users will be very happy in 2011 and olimpic games of 2012. No sooner, no later. What we can do until then ? We must user Rebol2 for the projects it is suited for. If there is another programming language more suitable for our projects use it and avoid moaning about Rebol3 not being here. If we believe in Carl and Rebol3 help him and don't abandon the guru if his dream will need more time than we think. Use our experience with other programming software to bring to rebol new ideas and projects. Don't be negative with Carl and the Team: they are humans and needs our respect and support. We are mature enough to leave to Daddy and make for some time another street without stressing him until he will end his work (Which will happen sooner and happyer without our conmplains) To answer to Alessandro: in 2011-2012 I will still be here but with more ideas and experience than before. Giuseppe Chillemi

 [34/46] from: henrik:webz:dk at: 24-Nov-2007 17:27


On 24/11/2007, at 1.42, Carl Read wrote:
> On Saturday, 24-Novenber-2007 at 1:08:04 Giuseppe Chillemi wrote, >> I have read everywhere to have a personal opinion about the release
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
>> architecture. > That's a very long three months...
That seems about right for the 2008 part, but VID3 will be available with the first alpha according to the current plan as approved by Carl. Having monitored the progress closely (I helped testing the prototypes), I think it took only a few days to build the first prototype, about a week more to develop the second one and in about 4 weeks, we got to where we are now with extending the second prototype. But development has stopped right now, because Gabriele has been busy elsewhere for about 2 months and it's not certain when he will return, because he keeps being pulled back to work on something unrelated to R3. He's crucial for moving VID3 forward. We also need to develop at least one more prototype before the design can be deemed good enough. It doesn't take long for Gabriele to do it, but he is unfortunately busy. So why can't someone else, perhaps a lazy guy like me do that? All coders and contributors are specialists in their own area with me working on VID3 GUI appearance, DevBase GUI, generic testing and the Cookbook list for DocBase. This is the best I can do and if I were to try to work on VID3, I'd be ruining Gabriele's work with inferior code, because VID3 is a pretty good design so far and I can't carry that torch, so to speak. My face turns white, every time I look at the VID3 code. :-) Cyphre is the specialist in low level graphics, GOBs and WinXP graphics integration. He knows how to bring the best performance out of AGG. Brian Tiffin works on DocBase and knows things about MediaWiki that we others don't. And so there are great people working in each narrow field. The truth right now is that RT needs hard core expert coders, not PR. From where I'm sitting, it looks to me that all the best coders are strained very hard to make stuff for R3 right now. They are under contract for doing unrelated work and that delays all the juicy parts of R3 for a few months. That's unfortunate, but PR will not help that. In fact it will make it worse I think, to attract curious people to R3 at this time, people who are not qualified to work on these crucial parts and will ask questions that aren't timely to ask right now. People who are qualified to make critical design reviews, who write great REBOL code and understand the inner workings of R2 to be able to judge what would be good code for R3, are needed for R3. Also people who are able to do a lot of boring tests are needed. Carl is asking for tests to new code all the time and we are currently underdelivering, because it's time consuming and boring work. :-) In order to get to do that, the best thing one can do, is to be a proven R2 coder and try to get into the AltME world for R3 development. R3 development only happens there, not on forums or mailing lists or in blogs. It may take some time to get in, because you need to be approved by Carl and he's busy all the time. Right now, DevBase is "easier", because it's "just" REBOL code and more people can directly contribute to that and over 230 code submissions have been made to its database already, some to R3, some for DevBase improvements and some to improving REBOL/Services (something that also benefits R/S under R2). But yes, REBOL development generally suffers from delays, because one single coder can hold it all up, due to family or contractual obligations elsewhere. Had Gabriele been available for the past 2 months, VID3 would be in the late debugging phase now, rocking our socks off even more than it does now. That's the price to pay, when the contributions must be top notch. About the rest of the time table posted above, you are not taking DevBase into account: As we move further towards completion, simpler, upper level parts will be accessible to anyone through DevBase, so the debugging work won't last that long. Combining DevBase with a bug tracker and a discussion system like AltME works very well. At that point, it's very much up to you, how fast development goes, so if I were you, I'd free up some time in 2008 for testing, learning how to use DevBase and begin some REBOL code scrutinizing. :-) I'm fairly sure that by the end of 2008, R3's core with all advertized features are largely done and ready for the really big expansions that will require a large number of developers. -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

 [35/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 25-Nov-2007 0:55


On Saturday, 24-Novenber-2007 at 17:27:12 Henrik Mikael Kristensen wrote,
>On 24/11/2007, at 1.42, Carl Read wrote: >>
<<quoted lines omitted: 45>>
>of R3 for a few months. That's unfortunate, but PR will not help >that.
Well it's not PR I was wanting, but more realistic timeframes like you (and Giuseppe) are providing here. But they should really be on rebol.com somewhere, so can be considered official. The problem for those already using REBOL (but outside of the inner circle) is we get comments on the mailing list here along the lines of "R2 is obsolete", yet we don't know how long it'll be before its replacement appears in a form that's good enough to actually be used as a replacement. Of course we continue using R2, but it's hard to imagine starting something with it that's supposed to have a long shelf-life. Many thanks for this response. -- Carl Read.

 [36/46] from: henrik:webz:dk at: 25-Nov-2007 1:41


On 24/11/2007, at 22.18, Carl Read wrote:
> Well it's not PR I was wanting, but more realistic timeframes like > you (and Giuseppe) are providing here. But they should really be > on rebol.com somewhere, so can be considered official.
The only problem with it, is that the schedules are rather shaky, for example with Gabriele's and Cyphre's temporary departure of still unknown duration. We weren't aware of those from the beginning. Making such things public might make it even more difficult to keep an image of a company that delivers. Not that there already is a good record for that, but talking publicly about schedules and not keeping them, just throws away the last bits of credibility that RT has left. It would probably be simpler to make a time table, if we all worked at RT in-house on a payroll.
> The problem for those already using REBOL (but outside of the inner > circle) is we get comments on the mailing list here along the lines
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> hard to imagine starting something with it that's supposed to have > a long shelf-life.
Well, my personal opinion is that R2 is not going away any time soon. I have products under development for R2 and don't expect to start working on R3 products until some time after beta release. DevBase runs only under R2 currently. But when R3 goes beta for true public scrutiny, it will really obsolete R2 in so many ways, that you only want to use R2 for those very large, complicated scripts that depend very much on VID or View.
> Many thanks for this response.
Glad to be of help. :-) -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

 [37/46] from: santilli:gabriele:g:mail at: 25-Nov-2007 17:14


2007/11/24, Giuseppe Chillemi <gchillemi-aliceposta.it>:
> The new VID is on only on Carl's mind
That's not really correct. I think it's 90% done (though we're going to re-evaluate the design soon, and I may need to rewrite some parts), even though the remaining 10% is the one that takes the longest (the details)... so it would probably need 3-4 weeks of work (which can mean two months real time because I may also be doing other things in the meantime, like protocols, testing, R/S on R3, and so on). (Keep in mind that 90% required less than 3 weeks, done over about a month - we started working on VID in mid July and I had to go back to Qtask in mid August.)
> In this situation Rebol3/Core will need at least 3 months to leave the > pre-alpha stage and go alpha.
That may be true as there are many things that still need to be done (tasks etc), however most of these features are not that critical, so you can call it alpha even if tasks are not 100% done and so on. I think it already qualifies as "alpha" since you can already write useful apps with it (and I did).
> Then will come the time for the other > protocols to be implemented and debugged. This mean another 5-7 months.
It can be done in parallel. Carl works on the "kernel" (the actual interpreter, the datatypes, etc.), I work on VID and protocols (with many others contributing mezz code, eg. thru DevBase), Richard works on View and so on.
> Thinking in parallel, VID will be structured and engineered during this > time. A first implementation of the new VID will start after core with > protocols will go beta.
That's not correct - we're at the second implementation already and don't think the third will take much (I think the current code is flexible enough for the changes Carl wants to make, so there's not much to rewrite. It was asked that we have "css like skinning", and although I don't think we need all the complexity of "css like", we can do something like that by just using the way VID3 handles style options - you can write button "Click" options [rounding: 6] for example, so we can just make the options names more "css like" and there's not much more code to write).
> Should we think that 1 month is enough for a full GUI system ? No, it will
No, about 2 are needed, but it might have been less if I was not interrupted. Then of course we still have to refine the edges after that, and maybe it will take 6 months or so to call it "release candidate", but it's not that hard. It's REBOL we're talking about, not Java. :)
> 2010-2011 Seems the time-frame for the firsts maturity and usabilty of > Rebol3 in big projects.
It may be true that it will take a few years for it to be as mature as R2 is; but, keep in mind R2 was done in like 6 months, and about one year later we got View (2000). In 2001 I was already writing commercial applications with it - some are still in use today even though they run in View 1.2.10 or so. Even though RT may be much smaller now, I think you are a bit too pessimistic. OTOH, since many things will be left to the community, it's hard to predict when we'll have a "critical mass" of modules and plugins available. Anyway, that was a good post, and I completely agree with the idea - there's no need to wait for R3, and even if it's going to take some 3 years more, the world won't fall in the meantime. Regards, Gabriele.

 [38/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 25-Nov-2007 19:19


Hello Gabriele, I agree with you: this topic is taking the light on a lot of things. I think this topic is taking on surface some other things related to Rebol that let me a little bit baffled: 1) it seems (but it is not clear) that there are only a few people that work on Rebol (you, Carl, and another couple of guys). 2) All Rebol developers do not work at full time to Rebol development. 3) It seems there are more information about the development plans of RT here in this topic than in any other place: it means, maybe, the communication between RT and other people (Rebol fans!) is not well performed. 4) It seems that there is not any official development plan. I think this could be a good method (well... not good... but acceptable) for Open Source / free apps (developed by the volunteers in their free-time), but this is not acceptable in a professional development. Yes, in fact, sometimes, we discuss here as if we are talking about free apps, but we should not forget we are talking about commercial application. Imagine that, several years ago, I bought a Command license for my company (they do not allowed me to buy further licenses since the development was stalled... that was the impression). Then I bought a personal license (View/Pro) for me. Again:we should not forget that from RT I do expect a commercial quality program, commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... Look at other programs like Real Basic, Runtime Revolution, 3D Game Studio (I use it for 3D, and it has an affordable price for an Indie developer, Beyond Virtual, etc....), etc... (I do stop here, but I could proceed with many other programs...). All these development tools, have regular upgrades, new milestone releases, etc... That's all. I want to highlight that I like Rebol, but I'm afraid that RT seems to manage it as a product created by some volunteers, not by a commercial company. During these days I was even thinking to offer me to help in Rebol development. But the problem is this: 1) Since Rebol is not free (and RT gains money from it), I cannot offer me as free-of-charge. 2) If I could work for free, mybe in the future, if Rebol developement will be stopped, I will remain with *NOTHING* in my hands, since it is not free. If I partecipate for free to develop a GPL (LGPL or similar) product, if the main development group will stop development, I could get the source code of the product self. In Rebol... no. Look at similar cases: Commodore Amiga (you know very well), OS/2, BeOS (do you know? It was really incredible and a revolutions OS, but it failed), several Smalltalk versions (Dolphin Smalltalk, IBM SmallTalk). More: Microsoft J++, Borland Kylix (sigh... I like Delphi!), etc.... Don't forget: I talk in this way because I like Rebol, else I was not here to spend my time to talk about it! :-) Ciao Gabriele! On Nov 25, 2007 5:14 PM, Gabriele Santilli <santilli.gabriele-gmail.com> wrote:
> 2007/11/24, Giuseppe Chillemi <gchillemi-aliceposta.it>: > > The new VID is on only on Carl's mind
<<quoted lines omitted: 57>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [39/46] from: ryan:practicalproductivity at: 25-Nov-2007 11:00


Lets not forget that for certain types of applications, rebol is far more productive and flexible than many other languages. Its simply efficient and very well thought out. I think many developers just like using it, and like myself dont mind contributing to the cause because rebol and its community has enabled us to do wonderful things. I personally look forward to the chance to contribute to R3 in the future, my way of giving back, and adding some great features that I think everyone will benefit from. Godspeed RT! ---Ryan Practical Productivity 707-245-8226 Alessandro Manotti wrote:

 [40/46] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 25-Nov-2007 20:59


Allessandro, I think the problem is in somewhere else. No matter what we say, you seem to be still disappointed. :-) There is dozens of blog posts, diagrams, which show R3 product family strategy. That strategy should be clear even to very average developer. Is is clear to me, and I am not a good developer :-) Don't get me wrong, but I think you should decide for yourself, if REBOL is the right (safe) tool for you? Look - we can agree upon the fact, that RT should have more developers. You know, it, I know it, others might know it. But - does it help to just state it? Do you think RT can magically contract 10 developers full time? I believe that if Carl would have that resources, he would do so. And - I don't buy that open-source arguments - do you think that open sourcing R3 nowadays would gain us 10 of quality R3 coders? If so - go and send them to finish Orca, the clone. What Gabriele stated here, is very fair. I am not even sure it was appropriate to disclose such things in public. But believe him. If he says he wrote VID3 prototype in few weeks, he is not probably lying. If he thinks that finishing it will take some 3 months, he is probably right too. He is now under contract with another party, but If I am not wrong, he is on his way to US to meet with Carl and Cyphre to discuss further R3 plans. Now shortly to your questions:
> 1) it seems (but it is not clear) that there are only a few people that work > on Rebol (you, Carl, and another couple of guys). >
yes
> 2) All Rebol developers do not work at full time to Rebol development. >
yes. But - what is your point here once again? How many ppl do you think apart from Guido do design work on Python3? Carl himself might be enough to work on Cores. Once R3 goes public, it will be community's responsibility to actually not complain, but extend the platform. So, let's better prepare for that stage ....
> 3) It seems there are more information about the development plans of RT > here in this topic than in any other place: it means, maybe, the > communication between RT and other people (Rebol fans!) is not well > performed. >
Why? What do you know about internal Py3 development process? Once again, no matter how hard those of us informed try to inform others here, no matter how much Carl blogs, Henrik blogs, no matter what can be found on Altme, it still does not seem to be enough. I don't buy your arguments about work and being behind proxy - surely you are online even at home, no? It seems to me, that some ppl simply refuse to join Altme, because once again - it is not crappy web public accessible forum, it has to be downloaded, installed, is not open source and other more or less psychological nonsenses, rather than accepting the fact, that without much closer channel the development would be 10 times slower.
> 4) It seems that there is not any official development plan.
Be sure there is some concrete strategy, just not probably deadlines set ....
> I think this > could be a good method (well... not good... but acceptable) for Open Source
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> buy further licenses since the development was stalled... that was the > impression). Then I bought a personal license (View/Pro) for me.
I bougth /Pro, 3x /Command, IOS, and believe me, there is probably any other person being more critical to some past RT moves. There are even some things I don't like nowadays, but I just got to the point to try to help, rather than complain endlessly.
> Again:we should not forget that from RT I do expect a commercial quality > program, commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... >
We don't forget it. Just suggest what to do about it? Just stating RT should does not magically solve the situation :-)
> Look at other programs like Real Basic, Runtime Revolution, 3D Game Studio > (I use it for 3D, and it has an affordable price for an Indie developer, > Beyond Virtual, etc....), etc... (I do stop here, but I could proceed with > many other programs...). All these development tools, have regular upgrades, > new milestone releases, etc... That's all. >
R3 Alpha is at its 82nd release update, for those who are involved with Alpha. Once things are ready in DevBase, you can have as many releases as you wish :-)
> I want to highlight that I like Rebol, but I'm afraid that RT seems to > manage it as a product created by some volunteers, not by a commercial > company. >
You are right here, and hopefully that changes. It was already communicated to Carl, and that is maybe why RT was/is looking for marketing guy ...
> During these days I was even thinking to offer me to help in Rebol > development. But the problem is this: > > 1) Since Rebol is not free (and RT gains money from it), I cannot offer me > as free-of-charge. >
You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to :-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3 for free.
> 2) If I could work for free, mybe in the future, if Rebol developement will > be stopped, I will remain with *NOTHING* in my hands, since it is not free. >
IIRC, REBOL is in escrow, if RT would go under, sources would be released, but I don't know details. With R3, it should be also easier to clone it, as kernels will be better defined, API will exist ....
> Don't forget: I talk in this way because I like Rebol, else I was not here > to spend my time to talk about it! :-) >
I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will be your answer then? I ask, because I think of those problems daily. And I think we should accept bounties. I would pay some few bucks to have some feature available, I am not able to code it myself, someone other might do it. Company I worked for sponsored development of RebGUI grid and Windows SysTray support, which will be probably part of R3. My whole post was not personal attack to your opinions. It is just that I would like to see ppl start to think, of how to help us improve the situation with realistic actions, taking into account resources we have available. Both you and me would surely like to see RT having tens of coders and community being 10folds in size ... Cheers, Petr

 [41/46] from: ale870::gmail at: 25-Nov-2007 22:02


Petr, I think we have a different point of view about open source and commercial applications. Just to talk: maybe only Guido is developing python kernel, but there is a huge community because they share the concept of open source. Orca? I did not follow the project details, but maybe there are other reasons because it failed. You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to :-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3 for free. No! Absolutely! You are wrong! How can you think that? There is simply a different point of view. Again: I only say that commercial apps need commercial quality structure. It is not feasible creating a commercial application using volunteers. Furthermore because RT does not offer Rebol core as commercial product and stop: they offer VID, Oracle drivers, database drivers, encryption, etc... Many years ago I bought Amiga (and I lost my money and time) OS/2 (and I lost my money and time) . Then I bought BeOS (and I lost my money and time), etc... I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear
> that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might > not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you > will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But > remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will > be your answer then? >
All Rebol code as Open Source? Or a part of it? ALL the code? I don't think. But... ok. I don't want to continue in this way, because it seems I want to broke the job of other people. My only problem is I make programs either to work (I need money to eat, and to let my family eat too!), and for hobby (not so much time :-( ). If I pay Rebol, and I use it to work, I need to be sure to get commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... Furthermore I need to be sure that I'm not spending my time in a dream-project. Else I will use Rebol just for fun, for hobby. Bye Petr.
> arguments - do you think that open sourcing R3 nowadays would gain us 10 > of quality R3 coders? If so - go and send them to finish Orca, the clone.
<<quoted lines omitted: 130>>
> To unsubscribe from the list, just send an email to > lists at rebol.com with unsubscribe as the subject.
-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

 [42/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 26-Nov-2007 13:13


On Sunday, 25-Novenber-2007 at 20:59:01 Petr Krenzelok wrote,
>> I want to highlight that I like Rebol, but I'm afraid that RT seems to >> manage it as a product created by some volunteers, not by a commercial
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>communicated to Carl, and that is maybe why RT was/is looking for >marketing guy ...
What I think they need to have sorted out by the time R3 is released is a solid (and public) business plan explaining where RT intends to take REBOL in the future. As no amount of spin will be enough to get a decent number of developers creating the upper-levels of code R3 will need to become truely functional. The developers will need to feel they're coding for something that's going somewhere and is worth their while. So any such business plan will need to be rock-solid and believable. REBOL as a platform, (and core renamed kernel:), will probably be half the battle, but the other half will be the need to convince people that REBOL the platform will actually get deployed. There's a chicken and egg problem there. -- Carl Read.

 [43/46] from: gchillemi:aliceposta:it at: 26-Nov-2007 20:25


> Don't get me wrong, but I think you should decide for > yourself, if REBOL is the right (safe) tool for you? Look -
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> sourcing R3 nowadays would gain us 10 of quality R3 coders? > If so - go and send them to finish Orca, the clone.
Petr, this message is really open mindend and honest. It is clear you have understood the situation of our community and Rebol Tech. Carl is giving every single penny and personal force into his project which is Rebol but also the syster company because if Rebol failed as commercial success he needs a form of revenues too. I don't think too that releasing the core as open source would help the development. As you pointed in this message, "Give 10 developers to Orca" and you will have the free Rebol. The most important thing is to keep the faith and be positive. If there is the need for a "Full Scale Commercial Company", as Alessandro think it for its Projects, Rebol is not the right choice at the present time. But I suppose, excuse me Alessandro, that he his simply unsatisfied of the actual state of the situation. I understand this but I don't agree with the position of constant complaining. People are humans and Gabriele, Cyphre, Carl and all the other involved deserve our respect for the amount of work done as gift for the community. If I was Carl I would even consinder giving up Rebol at all because I suppose it does not generates the revenues expected in the business plan but he is still here for personal reason and emotive involvment into the project; it is his son.
> What Gabriele stated here, is very fair. I am not even sure > it was appropriate to disclose such things in public. But
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> his way to US to meet with Carl and Cyphre to discuss further > R3 plans.
The community is so small that we can consider ourself part of a Family, and it is Carl's family. To be honest I could give up Rebol too and concentrate on other languages and products but I will follow Rebol because R2 is still a productive programming enviromnent and because I feel in someway part of the group. Now we all know the situation and I repeat myself: complaining is only a way to sink the whole project bringing to the people negative sensations and the willingness to depart from it. The best thing we can do is cooperate into the development (if it possible and in our potential) and keep the faith. Develpers need this to continue their work.
> I just got to the point to try to help, rather than complain > endlessly.
. . .
> My whole post was not personal attack to your opinions. It is > just that I would like to see ppl start to think, of how to > help us improve the situation with realistic actions, taking > into account resources we have available. Both you and me > would surely like to see RT having tens of coders and > community being 10folds in size ...
I quote this part of message only to agree with you and repeat again: Alessandro, stop complaining and start be positive, use R2 is you need it ! It is not an attack to you but to provide another way of viewing the situation which is more productive for all of us. Giuseppe Chillemi

 [44/46] from: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 26-Nov-2007 22:16


Thanks for the encouragement, Giuseppe, appreciated. I do agree with you in every point. It should not be understood as that we are both living out of reality, let's just hope for it :-) It is like accepting the state we are in and trying to improve in small steps ... Best regards, Petr

 [45/46] from: dhsunanda:gm:ail at: 25-Nov-2007 1:30


Alessandro:
> I was following all the discussions made in these days in this mailing list, > and... I asked to myself: is there any RT member (official member) that read > these emails? > > I think it could be very important, since I think a company should have to > read the suggestions, the opinions of the people that use the product. > > Well, who follows this email of RT people?
Carl has responded in his blog: http://www.rebol.com/article/0346.html Sunanda

 [46/46] from: carl:cybercraft at: 28-Nov-2007 5:23


On Wednesday, 28-Novenber-2007 at 17:03:50 Carl Read wrote,
>On Friday, 23-Novenber-2007 at 7:36:53 Tim Johnson wrote, >>However: I have always got the impression that RT promises more than
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>>That's all I have to say on this subject. >Quitter! ;-)
Thought I'd post the reference Tim, in case you didn't know of it... http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071108.html :-) -- Carl Read.

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