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[REBOL] Re: Who read this mailing list?

From: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 25-Nov-2007 20:59

Allessandro, I think the problem is in somewhere else. No matter what we say, you seem to be still disappointed. :-) There is dozens of blog posts, diagrams, which show R3 product family strategy. That strategy should be clear even to very average developer. Is is clear to me, and I am not a good developer :-) Don't get me wrong, but I think you should decide for yourself, if REBOL is the right (safe) tool for you? Look - we can agree upon the fact, that RT should have more developers. You know, it, I know it, others might know it. But - does it help to just state it? Do you think RT can magically contract 10 developers full time? I believe that if Carl would have that resources, he would do so. And - I don't buy that open-source arguments - do you think that open sourcing R3 nowadays would gain us 10 of quality R3 coders? If so - go and send them to finish Orca, the clone. What Gabriele stated here, is very fair. I am not even sure it was appropriate to disclose such things in public. But believe him. If he says he wrote VID3 prototype in few weeks, he is not probably lying. If he thinks that finishing it will take some 3 months, he is probably right too. He is now under contract with another party, but If I am not wrong, he is on his way to US to meet with Carl and Cyphre to discuss further R3 plans. Now shortly to your questions:
> 1) it seems (but it is not clear) that there are only a few people that work > on Rebol (you, Carl, and another couple of guys). >
> 2) All Rebol developers do not work at full time to Rebol development. >
yes. But - what is your point here once again? How many ppl do you think apart from Guido do design work on Python3? Carl himself might be enough to work on Cores. Once R3 goes public, it will be community's responsibility to actually not complain, but extend the platform. So, let's better prepare for that stage ....
> 3) It seems there are more information about the development plans of RT > here in this topic than in any other place: it means, maybe, the > communication between RT and other people (Rebol fans!) is not well > performed. >
Why? What do you know about internal Py3 development process? Once again, no matter how hard those of us informed try to inform others here, no matter how much Carl blogs, Henrik blogs, no matter what can be found on Altme, it still does not seem to be enough. I don't buy your arguments about work and being behind proxy - surely you are online even at home, no? It seems to me, that some ppl simply refuse to join Altme, because once again - it is not crappy web public accessible forum, it has to be downloaded, installed, is not open source and other more or less psychological nonsenses, rather than accepting the fact, that without much closer channel the development would be 10 times slower.
> 4) It seems that there is not any official development plan.
Be sure there is some concrete strategy, just not probably deadlines set ....
> I think this > could be a good method (well... not good... but acceptable) for Open Source > / free apps (developed by the volunteers in their free-time), but this is > not acceptable in a professional development. Yes, in fact, sometimes, we > discuss here as if we are talking about free apps, but we should not forget > we are talking about commercial application. Imagine that, several years > ago, I bought a Command license for my company (they do not allowed me to > buy further licenses since the development was stalled... that was the > impression). Then I bought a personal license (View/Pro) for me. >
I bougth /Pro, 3x /Command, IOS, and believe me, there is probably any other person being more critical to some past RT moves. There are even some things I don't like nowadays, but I just got to the point to try to help, rather than complain endlessly.
> Again:we should not forget that from RT I do expect a commercial quality > program, commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... >
We don't forget it. Just suggest what to do about it? Just stating RT should does not magically solve the situation :-)
> Look at other programs like Real Basic, Runtime Revolution, 3D Game Studio > (I use it for 3D, and it has an affordable price for an Indie developer, > Beyond Virtual, etc....), etc... (I do stop here, but I could proceed with > many other programs...). All these development tools, have regular upgrades, > new milestone releases, etc... That's all. >
R3 Alpha is at its 82nd release update, for those who are involved with Alpha. Once things are ready in DevBase, you can have as many releases as you wish :-)
> I want to highlight that I like Rebol, but I'm afraid that RT seems to > manage it as a product created by some volunteers, not by a commercial > company. >
You are right here, and hopefully that changes. It was already communicated to Carl, and that is maybe why RT was/is looking for marketing guy ...
> During these days I was even thinking to offer me to help in Rebol > development. But the problem is this: > > 1) Since Rebol is not free (and RT gains money from it), I cannot offer me > as free-of-charge. >
You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to :-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3 for free.
> 2) If I could work for free, mybe in the future, if Rebol developement will > be stopped, I will remain with *NOTHING* in my hands, since it is not free. >
IIRC, REBOL is in escrow, if RT would go under, sources would be released, but I don't know details. With R3, it should be also easier to clone it, as kernels will be better defined, API will exist ....
> Don't forget: I talk in this way because I like Rebol, else I was not here > to spend my time to talk about it! :-) >
I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will be your answer then? I ask, because I think of those problems daily. And I think we should accept bounties. I would pay some few bucks to have some feature available, I am not able to code it myself, someone other might do it. Company I worked for sponsored development of RebGUI grid and Windows SysTray support, which will be probably part of R3. My whole post was not personal attack to your opinions. It is just that I would like to see ppl start to think, of how to help us improve the situation with realistic actions, taking into account resources we have available. Both you and me would surely like to see RT having tens of coders and community being 10folds in size ... Cheers, Petr