[REBOL] Re: Who read this mailing list?
From: ale870:g:mail at: 25-Nov-2007 22:02
Petr,
I think we have a different point of view about open source and commercial
applications.
Just to talk: maybe only Guido is developing python kernel, but there is a
huge community because they share the concept of open source.
Orca? I did not follow the project details, but maybe there are other
reasons because it failed.
You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to
:-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3
for free.
No! Absolutely! You are wrong! How can you think that? There is simply a
different point of view. Again: I only say that commercial apps need
commercial quality structure. It is not feasible creating a commercial
application using volunteers. Furthermore because RT does not offer Rebol
core as commercial product and stop: they offer VID, Oracle drivers,
database drivers, encryption, etc...
Many years ago I bought Amiga (and I lost my money and time) OS/2 (and I
lost my money and time) . Then I bought BeOS (and I lost my money and time),
etc...
I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear
> that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might
> not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you
> will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But
> remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will
> be your answer then?
>
All Rebol code as Open Source? Or a part of it? ALL the code? I don't think.
But... ok. I don't want to continue in this way, because it seems I want to
broke the job of other people. My only problem is I make programs either to
work (I need money to eat, and to let my family eat too!), and for hobby
(not so much time :-( ). If I pay Rebol, and I use it to work, I need to
be sure to get commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... Furthermore I
need to be sure that I'm not spending my time in a dream-project. Else I
will use Rebol just for fun, for hobby.
Bye Petr.
> arguments - do you think that open sourcing R3 nowadays would gain us 10
> of quality R3 coders? If so - go and send them to finish Orca, the clone.
>
> What Gabriele stated here, is very fair. I am not even sure it was
> appropriate to disclose such things in public. But believe him. If he
> says he wrote VID3 prototype in few weeks, he is not probably lying. If
> he thinks that finishing it will take some 3 months, he is probably
> right too. He is now under contract with another party, but If I am not
> wrong, he is on his way to US to meet with Carl and Cyphre to discuss
> further R3 plans.
>
> Now shortly to your questions:
>
> >
> > 1) it seems (but it is not clear) that there are only a few people that
> work
> > on Rebol (you, Carl, and another couple of guys).
> >
>
> yes
> > 2) All Rebol developers do not work at full time to Rebol development.
> >
>
> yes. But - what is your point here once again? How many ppl do you think
> apart from Guido do design work on Python3? Carl himself might be enough
> to work on Cores. Once R3 goes public, it will be community's
> responsibility to actually not complain, but extend the platform. So,
> let's better prepare for that stage ....
>
> > 3) It seems there are more information about the development plans of RT
> > here in this topic than in any other place: it means, maybe, the
> > communication between RT and other people (Rebol fans!) is not well
> > performed.
> >
> Why? What do you know about internal Py3 development process? Once
> again, no matter how hard those of us informed try to inform others
> here, no matter how much Carl blogs, Henrik blogs, no matter what can be
> found on Altme, it still does not seem to be enough. I don't buy your
> arguments about work and being behind proxy - surely you are online even
> at home, no? It seems to me, that some ppl simply refuse to join Altme,
> because once again - it is not crappy web public accessible forum, it
> has to be downloaded, installed, is not open source and other more or
> less psychological nonsenses, rather than accepting the fact, that
> without much closer channel the development would be 10 times slower.
>
> > 4) It seems that there is not any official development plan.
> Be sure there is some concrete strategy, just not probably deadlines set
> ....
> > I think this
> > could be a good method (well... not good... but acceptable) for Open
> Source
> > / free apps (developed by the volunteers in their free-time), but this
> is
> > not acceptable in a professional development. Yes, in fact, sometimes,
> we
> > discuss here as if we are talking about free apps, but we should not
> forget
> > we are talking about commercial application. Imagine that, several years
> > ago, I bought a Command license for my company (they do not allowed me
> to
> > buy further licenses since the development was stalled... that was the
> > impression). Then I bought a personal license (View/Pro) for me.
> >
> I bougth /Pro, 3x /Command, IOS, and believe me, there is probably any
> other person being more critical to some past RT moves. There are even
> some things I don't like nowadays, but I just got to the point to try to
> help, rather than complain endlessly.
> > Again:we should not forget that from RT I do expect a commercial quality
> > program, commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc...
> >
> We don't forget it. Just suggest what to do about it? Just stating RT
> "should" does not magically solve the situation :-)
> > Look at other programs like Real Basic, Runtime Revolution, 3D Game
> Studio
> > (I use it for 3D, and it has an affordable price for an Indie developer,
> > Beyond Virtual, etc....), etc... (I do stop here, but I could proceed
> with
> > many other programs...). All these development tools, have regular
> upgrades,
> > new milestone releases, etc... That's all.
> >
> R3 Alpha is at its 82nd release update, for those who are involved with
> Alpha. Once things are ready in DevBase, you can have as many releases
> as you wish :-)
> > I want to highlight that I like Rebol, but I'm afraid that RT seems to
> > manage it as a product created by some volunteers, not by a commercial
> > company.
> >
> You are right here, and hopefully that changes. It was already
> communicated to Carl, and that is maybe why RT was/is looking for
> marketing guy ...
>
> > During these days I was even thinking to offer me to help in Rebol
> > development. But the problem is this:
> >
> > 1) Since Rebol is not free (and RT gains money from it), I cannot offer
> me
> > as free-of-charge.
> >
> You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to
> :-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3
> for free.
> > 2) If I could work for free, mybe in the future, if Rebol developement
> will
> > be stopped, I will remain with *NOTHING* in my hands, since it is not
> free.
> >
>
> IIRC, REBOL is in escrow, if RT would go under, sources would be
> released, but I don't know details. With R3, it should be also easier to
> "clone" it, as kernels will be better defined, API will exist ....
>
> > Don't forget: I talk in this way because I like Rebol, else I was not
> here
> > to spend my time to talk about it! :-)
> >
>
> I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear
> that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might
> not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you
> will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But
> remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will
> be your answer then? I ask, because I think of those problems daily. And
> I think we should accept bounties. I would pay some few bucks to have
> some feature available, I am not able to code it myself, someone other
> might do it. Company I worked for sponsored development of RebGUI grid
> and Windows SysTray support, which will be probably part of R3.
>
> My whole post was not personal attack to your opinions. It is just that
> I would like to see ppl start to think, of how to help us improve the
> situation with realistic actions, taking into account resources we have
> available. Both you and me would surely like to see RT having tens of
> coders and community being 10folds in size ...
>
> Cheers,
> Petr
> > Ciao Gabriele!
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 25, 2007 5:14 PM, Gabriele Santilli <santilli.gabriele-gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
>
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--
//Alessandro
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