Who read this mailing list?

<chuckle> We're waiting to find out with bated breath. </chuckle> The PL that I consider an alternative to rebol is newlisp. If you look at their forum, you will see that Lutz Miller - the developer of newlisp - participates almost daily in the community. Tim

I had a quick look at its FAQ and the thought struck me. Would it understand this? (hello "world" 9 $80.00 7.6.5.4 3x2 10:20 1-Jan-2001 here-there.not) etc... And of course, is there a View equivalent? --- Carl Read.

Noone reads ML this days probably. Don't get me wrong, although we are used to, ML is absolutly arcane way of communication, slow. So, now, in opposite, just tell me, - who speds x hours daily his time communicating with developers on instant messaging with instant file sharing, bugbase, private channels, devbase, checklists, etc.? - Carl. So, those who want, spend their time on much more efficient channel than is ML. And as for ML, there are others, who monitor it, and filter it for Carl, if something important is said. And be sure this thread will get his notice :-) Petr

But for discussions, slow is good. Thoughtful responses are those which have been mulled over for a few hours or days. Instant ones are off-the-top-of-the-head ones. Useful if someone's already given the topic a lot of thought, but not if it's a new topic to them. And this ML has a nice, searchable, public archive. (Or 3.) Can you point me to archived discussions on these other channels regarding, say, which OSs get R3 first, and which are to follow. Or one discussing how the 'hybrid' closed/open-source approach was arrived at and why it's thought it'll work. And what the definition of 'working' will be under it. And I'm sure others can think of other discussions they'd like to read through too - if they're available. -- Carl Read.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

There have been forums, but they never really became popular. Hmmm - well... http://www.reboltalk.com/ Seems it's active these days! That do you, Alessandro? -- Carl Read.

I work as chief of IT, I run various meetings, team meetings/projects for ten years, and what you try to suggest is - we should abandon meetings, because the communication is instat, and you don't have time to think about what you want to say, and you can't have transcript of who said what? :-) Meeting is for those who meet, so sorry for others not being present. The same goes for AltME. You are there, or you are not there :-) (there is some transcript of web-public rebol3 world though, although not threaded ...) Look, historically, although rather young, I remembe BBS, then newsnet, then ML, then IRC, ICQ, IOS, AltME, web forums. Each way of communication has its (dis)advantages. You have to use them for some time to "feel" the difference. E.g., I remember old IOS Developer's time. There is nothing out there even remotely aproaching the collaborative meeting, with auto syncing, private or public. That was whole space to breath. ML is not even 5% of that feeling. Besided that, I am used to be on several MLs, I like email. But, I have friends, who will not subscribe to any ML to just have one question answered. For them it is the same barrier as for some ppl to join AltME. Those ppl will prefer anonymous web forums. Everyone of us has its own preferences, but imo RT, trying to quickly colaborate on R3 development, chose the right channel - ML is too slow. Petr

No - I was just pointing out email's strength. (Though I fail to see what's wrong with abandoning meetings;) AltME and such I'm sure are good for those who're developing R3 or are communicating with others on REBOL-based projects, but if there's no way for those outside to know what's happening and why, (especially the 'why'), then you'll have to expect a lot of uninformed questions from the uninformed public. Public summaries of any major discussions (that have reached a decision!), perhaps? -- Carl Read.

haha, that made my day, man :-) I will remember that - "what is wrong with abandoning meetings" :-) it would fit for most of them :-)

yes, that is that. I can see it as not an AltME problem, but communication problem. Most ppl here might feel excluded from the process. My personal belief was, that Carl's blog should serve that purpose, but those would have to be more frequent. And that is not the only problem. Even if Carl blogs, it just is not enough, because of one factor - you simply don't know WHAT to expect, and WHEN to expect. That is why I was for milestones, and often releases. I think the team understands that, and that they are putting finishing touches to DevBase in order for others to be part of R3 soon ;-) Petr

Glad to be of service. ;-)

Some people are just not natural bloggers, whereas others seem to emit reams of posts to the point where you wonder if it's all they ever do.

The problem with often releases of a language is that programmers have a shifting target to deal with. There would need to be versions defined as stable releases. Will DevBase be just a REBOL program, or accessable via a web-browser as well? For the casually interested, via the browser is really a must. (Even if only read-only.) -- Carl Read.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

...or you have a 64 bit processor with Linux! The new computers out there are all 64 bit and a few people will invest money in a 32 bit processor based out of pruduction/support PC. In medio stat virtus (the virtue is in the average/middle), the ideal solution should be a full featured client with the chance to use web or mail just to read and submit messages. Anyway I understand that the disadvantage of this solution is lack of a trusted authentication and security over web/email. As this topic was met too: threading in AltMe could be done if double clicking a message a reference to it is inserted in the typed message but this will probably need big changes both server and client side and, last but not least, in the existing messages archives spread around all those clients out there. Zaijian, Mario

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

I'm not sure who counts as offical, but Gregg, Petr, and Gabriele all have close connections with RT, and they are the three most frequent posters to this mailing list: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-author-ranking.r You'll need to be logged onto REBOL.org to see that list. And note that it may not show a *person's* most recent postings: it shows postings by munged email address, and most of us have had different ML email addresses at various times. ***

Nobody can! We all have to sleep. What you can do is read the "web public" groups of the REBOL3 Altme World (that's the main developers' Altme world -- nothing to do with the R3 development). Those groups are archived here: http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/aga-groups-index.r?world=r3wp And if you want to ask a question about any of the issues raised there, please do so on the ML. Plenty of us are on both, so discussions should be able to drift happily between the various REBOL community channels. *** Worth noting too that the ML is archived on REBOL.org.... http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-index.r ....And you can have an RSS feed when new postings get published on the archive -- so even non-ML members can easily stay abreast of ML discussions. http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/boiler.r?display=rss-help *** There are a range of REBOL Community communication channels -- Altme, ML, REBOLtalk. GoogleGroup, (probably more), because we are a diverse group with different priorities and expectations. The channels that thrive will be the ones that contain the more fascinating discussions....So ask intriguing questions on the ML, and watch the community flock to answer them :-) Sunanda.

PLs each have their own strengths and weakneses, and one of rebol's strengths is the variety of datatypes and how they can be applied, one of newlisps strengths is the involvement of the developer IMHO

of course there is and it appeals to me more than view (I never have used view) My needs are to a great degree based on the fact that I own and operate a small business with two partners. What I do has to in some degree mesh with my partners and I have a business plan that takes that into account. My choices come down to the mixture of the pragmattic, the contractual and the aesthetic and should they differ from yours, they don't make mine better than yours or vice versa, just different. My needs and my opinions should they differ from someone else here are because my needs and my opions are different, not to be construed to be better. However: I have always got the impression that RT promises more than it delivers and sometimes I get the feeling that someone has come down from a mountain with some golden tablets, dropped them at our feet for all do decipher and them gone back into the clouds. Newlisp *seems* more democratic to me. IMHO That's all I have to say on this subject. tim

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

hum... I believe you just did ;-) -MAx

I have the same impression but I think that REBOL is refocusing to a different business model just to comply with the expectations of the userbase and to get some help. I do not know how many people are still developing rebol at Rebol Tech but my feeling is that few people are there and Carl must face the common problem which all of us have: make money. Few resources mean that Carl must move them back and forth to different projects to avoid that the whole ship sinks. The new business model includes many foreign cooperations and openess to not be slowed by the low resources of the main company. The programming world, the devices, the software in the year 2007 are so different that RebolTech could not keep the step without this change. I believe in Carl and his vision, I found now elsewhere many concepts he talked about years ago. Differently from many people I have know he created something and despite being constantly in late with the official track he release and he is going to release a great product. As users we have only to keep the faith in those moments where we feel empty and we have the desire to move avay. Obviusly I won't do like I did with Amiga anymore: I'll take a look to the other world just in case the whole project will fail (for this reason I am reading about NewLisp) but I feel it won't. Giuseppe Chillemi

I believe that Carl S has a business plan that is going to work for him. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Rebol is going to be in my future for a long time. tim

It's open-source, (and probably has been from day one?), which I'm sure changes completely where the stress is applied to the creator of a language. But regardless, their personality (and world-view) will always effect how they interact with the community that builds up around their language.

Well, so far, the only two screenshots I've found are the two on the front page. I've since found this... http://newlisp.org/guiserver/ which gives a list of its GUI/graphic modules, but not a screenshot among them. Are they just calls to the OS's GUI resources? As if so, then they're not a View equivalent. As to View, it's where I start any REBOL program that's to use it for its GUI. Developing it in tandem with the main code helps to ensure they don't get out of synch with each other.

Needs can differ and still all be valid, but not necessarily opinions! (See the 'Looking up the power continuum' thread.) My rule of thumb with discussions along these topics is that "The customer is always right." Which doesn't quite mean what most think it means, but instead that if your product or service isn't reaching the market-share as you hoped it would, then it's not the customers who're wrong, but your product or service or its marketing or something you (and not the customers) control.

You're right there, customer...

Quitter! ;-) -- Carl Read.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

My suggestion would be to keep doing it for yourself and the few readers it may have, and just hope that R3 will appear reasonably soon and will be good and make your time in the wilderness, so-to-speak, worth it. Such things take time to gain momentum. I'd say re-evaluate it after you've been blogging a year. Now there either will be a bit of buzz around REBOL when R3 appears, or there won't be. But let's assume there is, in which case you'll already have a site and blog up and running that'll both benefit from the buzz as well as being able to contribute to it. There's no guarantees of success when you start something like you're doing. A few of us here have done similar things. (Petr for instance partly ran a Czech/English news-site about the Amiga in that computer's dying days. Nothing they could do either about the way the Commodore was steering the ship!) Now you mightn't get any obvious support from RT, but there's nothing wrong with independant news sources/sites, (and they're in fact the preferred type), and it's nice to feel you can openly speak your mind, yes? Much harder to serve two masters - as in readers as well as the company you're blogging about. -- Carl Read.

That's a very long three months... -- Carl Read.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

Carl (And Alessandro), I want to support my opinion: Rebol is currently on Alpha, or pre-Alpha Stage. The modules structure and documentation has just been released (see http://www.rebol.net/r3blogs/0105.html) DevBase, the most importan collaboration structure for developing Rebol 3 is just here (see http://www.rebol.com/article/0344.html) There is only one protocol ready: the http protocol The new VID is on only on Carl's mind We are at the end of year 2007. Rebol is a Big project, a programming language that should be build to be intefaced with the current software scenarios available in the world. In this situation Rebol3/Core will need at least 3 months to leave the pre-alpha stage and go alpha. Then will come the time for the other protocols to be implemented and debugged. This mean another 5-7 months. We are at the end of the summer 2008. Thinking in parallel, VID will be structured and engineered during this time. A first implementation of the new VID will start after core with protocols will go beta. Should we think that 1 month is enough for a full GUI system ? No, it will take surely 6 months to reach the beta stage. We are in the year 2009. In the meantime core will be debugged and reach a release state. Modules, as you have read in the blog, are still a prototype. Expert people will start experiencing with them during the alpha/beta stage. Fully modules won't be ready until 2009. Then "normal people" will start interesting into moudules. They will need to learn how to use them and start programming. Modules from the masses will come at start of 2010 and 2011. This big project will need a debugging stage, isn't it ? The first available year I see after the beta stage of core/vid system is 2009. Don't forget that it will be the time for other projects to start: - Unicode - Parallel Tasks - XML - Firefox/Internet Explorer R3 Plugin - Fully Documentation For Core/VID/SOA Architecture and examples - Full SDK/Command/Encap - Multi Platform releases The year 2009 will end and we are in 2010. The project starts to be mature for the release of components for Rebol and software based on the new system. 2010-2011 Seems the time-frame for the firsts maturity and usabilty of Rebol3 in big projects. Rebol Users will be very happy in 2011 and olimpic games of 2012. No sooner, no later. What we can do until then ? We must user Rebol2 for the projects it is suited for. If there is another programming language more suitable for our projects use it and avoid moaning about Rebol3 not being here. If we believe in Carl and Rebol3 help him and don't abandon the guru if his dream will need more time than we think. Use our experience with other programming software to bring to rebol new ideas and projects. Don't be negative with Carl and the Team: they are humans and needs our respect and support. We are mature enough to leave to Daddy and make for some time another street without stressing him until he will end his work (Which will happen sooner and happyer without our conmplains) To answer to Alessandro: in 2011-2012 I will still be here but with more ideas and experience than before. Giuseppe Chillemi

That seems about right for the 2008 part, but VID3 will be available with the first alpha according to the current plan as approved by Carl. Having monitored the progress closely (I helped testing the prototypes), I think it took only a few days to build the first prototype, about a week more to develop the second one and in about 4 weeks, we got to where we are now with extending the second prototype. But development has stopped right now, because Gabriele has been busy elsewhere for about 2 months and it's not certain when he will return, because he keeps being pulled back to work on something unrelated to R3. He's crucial for moving VID3 forward. We also need to develop at least one more prototype before the design can be deemed good enough. It doesn't take long for Gabriele to do it, but he is unfortunately busy. So why can't someone else, perhaps a lazy guy like me do that? All coders and contributors are specialists in their own area with me working on VID3 GUI appearance, DevBase GUI, generic testing and the Cookbook list for DocBase. This is the best I can do and if I were to try to work on VID3, I'd be ruining Gabriele's work with inferior code, because VID3 is a pretty good design so far and I can't carry that torch, so to speak. My face turns white, every time I look at the VID3 code. :-) Cyphre is the specialist in low level graphics, GOBs and WinXP graphics integration. He knows how to bring the best performance out of AGG. Brian Tiffin works on DocBase and knows things about MediaWiki that we others don't. And so there are great people working in each narrow field. The truth right now is that RT needs hard core expert coders, not PR. From where I'm sitting, it looks to me that all the best coders are strained very hard to make stuff for R3 right now. They are under contract for doing unrelated work and that delays all the juicy parts of R3 for a few months. That's unfortunate, but PR will not help that. In fact it will make it worse I think, to attract curious people to R3 at this time, people who are not qualified to work on these crucial parts and will ask questions that aren't timely to ask right now. People who are qualified to make critical design reviews, who write great REBOL code and understand the inner workings of R2 to be able to judge what would be good code for R3, are needed for R3. Also people who are able to do a lot of boring tests are needed. Carl is asking for tests to new code all the time and we are currently underdelivering, because it's time consuming and boring work. :-) In order to get to do that, the best thing one can do, is to be a proven R2 coder and try to get into the AltME world for R3 development. R3 development only happens there, not on forums or mailing lists or in blogs. It may take some time to get in, because you need to be approved by Carl and he's busy all the time. Right now, DevBase is "easier", because it's "just" REBOL code and more people can directly contribute to that and over 230 code submissions have been made to its database already, some to R3, some for DevBase improvements and some to improving REBOL/Services (something that also benefits R/S under R2). But yes, REBOL development generally suffers from delays, because one single coder can hold it all up, due to family or contractual obligations elsewhere. Had Gabriele been available for the past 2 months, VID3 would be in the late debugging phase now, rocking our socks off even more than it does now. That's the price to pay, when the contributions must be top notch. About the rest of the time table posted above, you are not taking DevBase into account: As we move further towards completion, simpler, upper level parts will be accessible to anyone through DevBase, so the debugging work won't last that long. Combining DevBase with a bug tracker and a discussion system like AltME works very well. At that point, it's very much up to you, how fast development goes, so if I were you, I'd free up some time in 2008 for testing, learning how to use DevBase and begin some REBOL code scrutinizing. :-) I'm fairly sure that by the end of 2008, R3's core with all advertized features are largely done and ready for the really big expansions that will require a large number of developers. -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

Well it's not PR I was wanting, but more realistic timeframes like you (and Giuseppe) are providing here. But they should really be on rebol.com somewhere, so can be considered official. The problem for those already using REBOL (but outside of the inner circle) is we get comments on the mailing list here along the lines of "R2 is obsolete", yet we don't know how long it'll be before its replacement appears in a form that's good enough to actually be used as a replacement. Of course we continue using R2, but it's hard to imagine starting something with it that's supposed to have a long shelf-life. Many thanks for this response. -- Carl Read.

The only problem with it, is that the schedules are rather shaky, for example with Gabriele's and Cyphre's temporary departure of still unknown duration. We weren't aware of those from the beginning. Making such things public might make it even more difficult to keep an image of a company that delivers. Not that there already is a good record for that, but talking publicly about schedules and not keeping them, just throws away the last bits of credibility that RT has left. It would probably be simpler to make a time table, if we all worked at RT in-house on a payroll.

Well, my personal opinion is that R2 is not going away any time soon. I have products under development for R2 and don't expect to start working on R3 products until some time after beta release. DevBase runs only under R2 currently. But when R3 goes beta for true public scrutiny, it will really obsolete R2 in so many ways, that you only want to use R2 for those very large, complicated scripts that depend very much on VID or View.

Glad to be of help. :-) -- Regards, Henrik Mikael Kristensen

That's not really correct. I think it's 90% done (though we're going to re-evaluate the design soon, and I may need to rewrite some parts), even though the remaining 10% is the one that takes the longest (the details)... so it would probably need 3-4 weeks of work (which can mean two months real time because I may also be doing other things in the meantime, like protocols, testing, R/S on R3, and so on). (Keep in mind that 90% required less than 3 weeks, done over about a month - we started working on VID in mid July and I had to go back to Qtask in mid August.)

That may be true as there are many things that still need to be done (tasks etc), however most of these features are not that critical, so you can call it alpha even if tasks are not 100% done and so on. I think it already qualifies as "alpha" since you can already write useful apps with it (and I did).

It can be done in parallel. Carl works on the "kernel" (the actual interpreter, the datatypes, etc.), I work on VID and protocols (with many others contributing mezz code, eg. thru DevBase), Richard works on View and so on.

That's not correct - we're at the second implementation already and don't think the third will take much (I think the current code is flexible enough for the changes Carl wants to make, so there's not much to rewrite. It was asked that we have "css like skinning", and although I don't think we need all the complexity of "css like", we can do something like that by just using the way VID3 handles style options - you can write button "Click" options [rounding: 6] for example, so we can just make the options names more "css like" and there's not much more code to write).

No, about 2 are needed, but it might have been less if I was not interrupted. Then of course we still have to refine the edges after that, and maybe it will take 6 months or so to call it "release candidate", but it's not that hard. It's REBOL we're talking about, not Java. :)

It may be true that it will take a few years for it to be as mature as R2 is; but, keep in mind R2 was done in like 6 months, and about one year later we got View (2000). In 2001 I was already writing commercial applications with it - some are still in use today even though they run in View 1.2.10 or so. Even though RT may be much smaller now, I think you are a bit too pessimistic. OTOH, since many things will be left to the community, it's hard to predict when we'll have a "critical mass" of modules and plugins available. Anyway, that was a good post, and I completely agree with the idea - there's no need to wait for R3, and even if it's going to take some 3 years more, the world won't fall in the meantime. Regards, Gabriele.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

yes

yes. But - what is your point here once again? How many ppl do you think apart from Guido do design work on Python3? Carl himself might be enough to work on Cores. Once R3 goes public, it will be community's responsibility to actually not complain, but extend the platform. So, let's better prepare for that stage ....

Why? What do you know about internal Py3 development process? Once again, no matter how hard those of us informed try to inform others here, no matter how much Carl blogs, Henrik blogs, no matter what can be found on Altme, it still does not seem to be enough. I don't buy your arguments about work and being behind proxy - surely you are online even at home, no? It seems to me, that some ppl simply refuse to join Altme, because once again - it is not crappy web public accessible forum, it has to be downloaded, installed, is not open source and other more or less psychological nonsenses, rather than accepting the fact, that without much closer channel the development would be 10 times slower.

Be sure there is some concrete strategy, just not probably deadlines set ....

I bougth /Pro, 3x /Command, IOS, and believe me, there is probably any other person being more critical to some past RT moves. There are even some things I don't like nowadays, but I just got to the point to try to help, rather than complain endlessly.

We don't forget it. Just suggest what to do about it? Just stating RT should does not magically solve the situation :-)

R3 Alpha is at its 82nd release update, for those who are involved with Alpha. Once things are ready in DevBase, you can have as many releases as you wish :-)

You are right here, and hopefully that changes. It was already communicated to Carl, and that is maybe why RT was/is looking for marketing guy ...

You either want to offer yourself free-of-charge, or you don't want to :-) That is just a bit of disrespect to all those who collaborate on R3 for free.

IIRC, REBOL is in escrow, if RT would go under, sources would be released, but I don't know details. With R3, it should be also easier to clone it, as kernels will be better defined, API will exist ....

I think that in few months you will be able to contribute. I just fear that even then you might feel uncomfort with situation, becase RT might not just commercially release module you would like to have, and you will probably remind us, that Python, PHP, Perl, Ruby all have it. But remember - at that time those part will be open source. So - what will be your answer then? I ask, because I think of those problems daily. And I think we should accept bounties. I would pay some few bucks to have some feature available, I am not able to code it myself, someone other might do it. Company I worked for sponsored development of RebGUI grid and Windows SysTray support, which will be probably part of R3. My whole post was not personal attack to your opinions. It is just that I would like to see ppl start to think, of how to help us improve the situation with realistic actions, taking into account resources we have available. Both you and me would surely like to see RT having tens of coders and community being 10folds in size ... Cheers, Petr

All Rebol code as Open Source? Or a part of it? ALL the code? I don't think. But... ok. I don't want to continue in this way, because it seems I want to broke the job of other people. My only problem is I make programs either to work (I need money to eat, and to let my family eat too!), and for hobby (not so much time :-( ). If I pay Rebol, and I use it to work, I need to be sure to get commercial quality upgrades, assistance, etc... Furthermore I need to be sure that I'm not spending my time in a dream-project. Else I will use Rebol just for fun, for hobby. Bye Petr.

-- //Alessandro http://sguish.wordpress.com http://laccio.wordpress.com

What I think they need to have sorted out by the time R3 is released is a solid (and public) business plan explaining where RT intends to take REBOL in the future. As no amount of spin will be enough to get a decent number of developers creating the upper-levels of code R3 will need to become truely functional. The developers will need to feel they're coding for something that's going somewhere and is worth their while. So any such business plan will need to be rock-solid and believable. REBOL as a platform, (and core renamed kernel:), will probably be half the battle, but the other half will be the need to convince people that REBOL the platform will actually get deployed. There's a chicken and egg problem there. -- Carl Read.

Petr, this message is really open mindend and honest. It is clear you have understood the situation of our community and Rebol Tech. Carl is giving every single penny and personal force into his project which is Rebol but also the syster company because if Rebol failed as commercial success he needs a form of revenues too. I don't think too that releasing the core as open source would help the development. As you pointed in this message, "Give 10 developers to Orca" and you will have the free Rebol. The most important thing is to keep the faith and be positive. If there is the need for a "Full Scale Commercial Company", as Alessandro think it for its Projects, Rebol is not the right choice at the present time. But I suppose, excuse me Alessandro, that he his simply unsatisfied of the actual state of the situation. I understand this but I don't agree with the position of constant complaining. People are humans and Gabriele, Cyphre, Carl and all the other involved deserve our respect for the amount of work done as gift for the community. If I was Carl I would even consinder giving up Rebol at all because I suppose it does not generates the revenues expected in the business plan but he is still here for personal reason and emotive involvment into the project; it is his son.

The community is so small that we can consider ourself part of a Family, and it is Carl's family. To be honest I could give up Rebol too and concentrate on other languages and products but I will follow Rebol because R2 is still a productive programming enviromnent and because I feel in someway part of the group. Now we all know the situation and I repeat myself: complaining is only a way to sink the whole project bringing to the people negative sensations and the willingness to depart from it. The best thing we can do is cooperate into the development (if it possible and in our potential) and keep the faith. Develpers need this to continue their work.

. . .

I quote this part of message only to agree with you and repeat again: Alessandro, stop complaining and start be positive, use R2 is you need it ! It is not an attack to you but to provide another way of viewing the situation which is more productive for all of us. Giuseppe Chillemi

Carl has responded in his blog: http://www.rebol.com/article/0346.html Sunanda

Thought I'd post the reference Tim, in case you didn't know of it... http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20071108.html :-) -- Carl Read.