IOS account (was RE: Re: Is this a bug ([5 <])?)
[1/14] from: rebolek::seznam::cz at: 14-Nov-2002 14:21
> I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and
> move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
> participate in various projects, etc. Nice Rebol world :-)
-pekr-
Hm, but it's really hard to get IOS developer account so I gave it up :(
I've got only evaluation account and nothing's happening on that server
so I'm not using IOS at all.
Well, bad I know but what can I do?
bb
---
Odchoz=ED zpr=E1va neobsahuje viry.
Zkontrolov=E1no antivirov=FDm syst=E9mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz).
Verze: 6.0.410 / Virov=E1 b=E1ze: 231 - datum vyd=E1n=ED: 31.10.2002
[2/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 14-Nov-2002 14:50
Boleslav Brezovsky wrote:
>>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and
>>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
>so I'm not using IOS at all.
>Well, bad I know but what can I do?
... talk to right ppl ;-) Wait a bit, I will try some magic ;-)
-pekr-
[3/14] from: chalz:earthlink at: 14-Nov-2002 22:12
> >>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and
> >>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
> >>participate in various projects, etc. Nice Rebol world :-)
I'd rather not, personally. I prefer having all of this material in one
area - eg, my mail box - instead of having to load up a dozen different apps
just to go through email :/
[4/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Nov-2002 4:54
Charles wrote:
>>>>I think that if IOS would scale well, we could all leave this ml and
>>>>move to IOS completly. The cooperation there is much closer, ppl can
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>area - eg, my mail box - instead of having to load up a dozen different apps
>just to go through email :/
What email? There would be no email at all. Have you seen IOS working?
It is like development "in Rebol", "for Rebol". You can create custom
reblets, which help you to let project going, and better organised. No
email based system can replace it easily. And as for email - I work on 2
- 3 machines. When I download my email on one of them, it is not
available on another ones. IOS is different - it simply syncs - so where
you go ... your data go with you ...
Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be
finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference
and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your
answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC
or other kind of IM and then - where is your integration?
As I said - one of the drawbacks of IOS is its scalability. If it would
handle hundreds of active users rather than tens, it would be even
cooler experience ....
-pekr-
[5/14] from: chalz:earthlink at: 14-Nov-2002 23:31
> Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be
> finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference
> and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your
> answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC
I am sorry, I thought you meant the /entire/ list. Like, everyone all
together. Rats. My mistake. *sighs* Tired and shouldn't do email when I'm
tired. Damn, I'm sorry.
[6/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Nov-2002 6:00
Charles wrote:
>>Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be
>>finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>together. Rats. My mistake. *sighs* Tired and shouldn't do email when I'm
>tired. Damn, I'm sorry.
:-) No need to apology. I know there is still place for ml, especially
for language newcomers, but I really meant whole list :-) It was just an
idea. So let's forget the list, but at least rebol community projects -
that's where IOS is really usefull ... and I think that advanced
cooperation reblets (white-board etc.) have yet to be born ...
-pekr-
[7/14] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 18-Nov-2002 13:47
Hello Petr,
Friday, November 15, 2002, 4:54:21 AM, you wrote:
PK> What email? There would be no email at all. Have you seen IOS working?
PK> It is like development "in Rebol", "for Rebol". You can create custom
PK> reblets, which help you to let project going, and better organised. No
PK> email based system can replace it easily. And as for email - I work on 2
PK> - 3 machines. When I download my email on one of them, it is not
PK> available on another ones. IOS is different - it simply syncs - so where
PK> you go ... your data go with you ...
PK> Look, we are slowly but working on VID update. It would NEVER be
PK> finished by email way. We already exchanged some 3000 msgs in conference
PK> and as for me, at least 5000 messages in messenger. You need your
PK> answers fast, not waiting for email to arrive. You would have to use IRC
PK> or other kind of IM and then - where is your integration?
PK> As I said - one of the drawbacks of IOS is its scalability. If it would
PK> handle hundreds of active users rather than tens, it would be even
PK> cooler experience ....
PK> -pekr-
Please, don't take this post as a serious arguing but....
...I hope there still will be email. I've seen IOS working and I have
to say that there are still weak parts of it. Just one small
example: there are two apps called "Expert" and "VID-Expert".
In the "Expert" app there are 6 questions none of them is
answered. (my last question was if someone is reading these
questions and I'm sure that nobody does). On 23.8.2002 I needed
help with the alpha image so I asked in the "VID-Expert" app and there is
still no answer, the same question was sent to ML on 14.11.2002 at
4:44PM the first reply on ML was (from you:) at 7:00PM and since
now I have 10 replies of this thread in my inbox! My conclusion is
that the IOS "Expert" apps are useless!
I know that Carl must be quiet busy so I don't try to spam him by
IOS messenger. Just for the first time, when I wanted to know his
opinion about the "Invalid ..." errors on 19.Aug. but I've no
answer yet:( again
The IOS conference app. has no threading so it's just a chat
with several rooms (one of them is named "chat") not a conference
in the way how discussion boards works.
Your example of no possibility to work with emails on more then
one computer is not correct as well, because if you set your email
client not to delete messages on the email server, your emails will be
available on all computers with access to the email server.
Yes,
IOS uses nice syncs so all data are updated when you connect, but that has
weak point as well because if you would have too many active IOS
users, the ammount of data may be quite large (what if someone adds
one 100MB file to IOS? This file will be downloaded by all IOS
users - if there is no security check to prevent downloads of large files)
For most IOS apps you have to be connected to the IOS server to do
something. So if I want to send new bug report, I've no choice to
write it offline etc. (but that's probably ok because I'm just a
dialup looser without creditcards; rich clients probably have
their good connections)
And the VID project, maybe if cyphre would send some of his styles
to ML some of them would be already in use. I know that it's
important to make standarts but to have more solutions for one
thing is much more better than none. Only real usage may highlight
which of the solutions is the best.
I like Rebol, and I like IOS, hope some of these comments may
help to make IOS better, but I like ML as well and the main reason
is that it's free for everybody, not just for a small community.
cheers Oldes
=( Oliva David )=======================( [oliva--david--seznam--cz] )==
=( Earth/Europe/Czech_Republic/Brno )=============================
=( coords: [lat: 49.22 long: 16.67] )=============================
[8/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 21-Nov-2002 20:42
Hi Oldes,
I'm normally not in the "me too" business, but that'been exactly, what I
always wanted to say about IOS.
Well, the shortcomings of the "experts" are simply that they aren't
used, but I guess they _could_ be usefull.
But you are living right about conference - it doesn't even scale to
busy days among the few people using it. Anything without threading is
useless on larger discussion volumes. It should be easy to add
threading, though. But still, it wouldn't be as accesible as a mailing list.
On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the
developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course this
only hampers their evolution, imo.
And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about, got
no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with "always
on" connections, too sad.
I hope scalability of IOS will improve over time, don't forget its at
1.0 for now.
That's it, I guess.
Kind regards,
Ingo
[9/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 21-Nov-2002 21:53
Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> Hi Oldes,
> I'm normally not in the "me too" business, but that'been exactly, what
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> busy days among the few people using it. Anything without threading is
> useless on larger discussion volumes.
I am not so sure here... It is chat, not some "stupid" off-line ml. I
remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would
completly fail ... Yes, some features are missing, but business related
ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central
knowledge-base usage etc. What I am worried about however, is IOS
scalability - it has really its limits for quite low amount of users.
Some time ago Carl told us, that RT solved that problem, but it was not
introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ...
> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't be
> as accesible as a mailing list.
>
> On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the
> developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course
> this only hampers their evolution, imo.
Who said that? We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest
tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
test, I test, I give a feedback. Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I
will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would
NOT go thru my QA service ;-)
You can await powerfull and auto-resize system in beta hopefully next
week ... we can release to ml, if ppl are interested. I think, that
especially for auto-resize system, ppl should test it, as RT is not sure
about its addition to VID.It would be good to have feedback from more
ppl ...
> And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about, got
> no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with "always
> on" connections, too sad.
>
> I hope scalability of IOS will improve over time, don't forget its at
> 1.0 for now.
IOS, otoh, is targeted mainly to businesses. RT would have set proper
VAR/OEM sales channels, tech support and have clear roadmap for product
development, and something like that costs money. How many new reblets
we saw introduced last year?
Some of us, especially those coming from business sphere, would like to
see IOS grow. I think that some of us will offer its further development
to RT, so it will be up to them to decide. IOS is good product, but if
not developed further (even marketing-wise), well ... who knows what
happens ;-)
-pekr-
[10/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 22-Nov-2002 7:17
Hi Petr,
Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> > Hi Oldes,
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would
> completly fail ...
I don't know, I never chatted. But I'm not able to follow the conference
on busy days. And the stupid remark is from you - does this mean
anything? :-)
> Yes, some features are missing, but business related
> ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central
> knowledge-base usage etc. What I am worried about however, is IOS
> scalability - it has really its limits for quite low amount of users.
> Some time ago Carl told us, that RT solved that problem, but it was
> not introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ...
Hope to see it soon.
>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't
>> be as accesible as a mailing list.
You would need to be "in" to be "in" - use Rebol to some extent to be
able to get to the list, use something additionally to your mailer (I
guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email).
> > On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the
> > developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course
> > this only hampers their evolution, imo.
>
> Who said that?
users/cyphre/style-set/readme.txt
> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest
> tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
> test, I test, I give a feedback.
Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around july.
They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I don't
pay much attention any more.
After all, I'm only toying around with Rebol in some personal projects.
So I don't feel expert enough to be of much help - though testing would
be possible, but see above.
> Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I
> will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> sure about its addition to VID.It would be good to have feedback from
> more ppl ...
I've seen some of the examples: I like it! It should be added to vid, imo.
>> And missing offline usability is something I once told Carl about,
>> got no answer, though. But I guess they are targetting those with
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> Some of us, especially those coming from business sphere, would like
> to see IOS grow.
I don't come from a business standpoint, but I'd like it to grow, too.
If I didn't bother - well, I wouldn't ;-)
> I think that some of us will offer its further development to RT, so
> it will be up to them to decide. IOS is good product, but if not
> developed further (even marketing-wise), well ... who knows what
> happens ;-)
Weeell, I've seen aggressive marketing win too often over good products,
I won't sjpeculate on that.
Kind regards,
Ingo
[11/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 22-Nov-2002 8:34
Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> Hi Petr,
> Petr Krenzelok wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 19>>
> conference on busy days. And the stupid remark is from you - does this
> mean anything? :-)
Yes, it means something. I used "stupid", in quotes, as compare the
feeling one gets from being long time chat user vs long time ml user.
Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to someone,
who admits he "never chatted"? ;-))
Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was
available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel.
Ppl are in-touch one with each other. But the experience comes, only if
you try it ...
>> Yes, some features are missing, but business related
>> ones ... e.g. ability to flag message to some topic for central
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>> not introduced to IOS yet. Maybe on other servers, I don't know ...
> Hope to see it soon.
Yes, I would like too, if Carl could possibly drop a note here :-)
>>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't
>>> be as accesible as a mailing list.
>>
>
> You would need to be "in" to be "in" - use Rebol to some extent to be
> able to get to the list, use something additionally to your mailer (I
> guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email).
So you comment your own words? ;-)
>> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest
>> tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
>> test, I test, I give a feedback.
>
> Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around
> july. They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I
> don't pay much attention any more.
It should not happend. Why do you give up? Are you talking about
Evaluation or Developer server. There is plenty of developers from here
in the Developer server area and noone reporting problems like you
describe ... Yes, if you have not logged for too long, it will take some
time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all about - to
get to actual state of things ....
>> Romano and Cyphre can tell you, that I
>> will not agree to something less than realtime. Said that, AltMe would
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> I've seen some of the examples: I like it! It should be added to vid,
> imo.
IMO too ... and we will propose resize system once again to RT ....
cheers,
-pekr-
[12/14] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 22-Nov-2002 10:45
Hi Ingo, Pekr, Oldes
> > > On Cyphres styles, there's a remark to not spread them outside the
> > > developers server - that's why I'm not really using them. Of course
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> > Who said that?
> users/cyphre/style-set/readme.txt
It looks you are putting two different stuff into one bag ;-) Bu this is
probably my mistake because the readme file you mentioned has not much
informative value(although there is said you can contact me if you have any
qustions ;-) )
As you can see from the IOS file path you mentioned above, this style-set is
my personal user folder not in VID/prototype folder. I'm developing this
style-set for one commercial project. I put in this *lot* of energy and free
time so you cannot expect I'll release it for free public usage. I published
this work on IOS to offer it to other developers for their commercial
projects. So if you or anyone on IOS is interested in using it for a few
shareware bucks just contact me privately. Also those people who will be
actively betatesting this stuff could use it in their projects for a
discount. For all who aren't on IOS but interested and willing to support my
efforts you can see some screenshots here:
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles.jpg
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles2.jpg
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/styles3.jpg
But his style-set is not that one I'm also doing for VID1.3 project which
will be ofcourse free even when RT won't be interested in including the code
in the upcomming Rebol/View release. There is also a possibility to make a
Pro style-pack for a small shareware fee but only in case RT won't be
interested to add it in the VID.
> > We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest
> > tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
> > test, I test, I give a feedback.
>
Yes, that's true....The only reason why all the style stuff is "hidden" on
IOS is that all my work for VID project is still work in progress and I
don't want to publish it before it will reach some state of quality to
prevent future style usage incompatibilities among wide range of Rebol
community...so please be patient...things are moving ;-)
regards
Cyphre
[13/14] from: ingo:2b1 at: 22-Nov-2002 10:47
Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> > Hi Petr,
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> >> Ingo Hohmann wrote:
> >>
<...>
> >> I am not so sure here... It is chat, not some "stupid" off-line ml. I
> >> remember my heavy usage of IRC and threading in on-line chat would
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to
> someone, who admits he "never chatted"? ;-))
Well, for me the offline usage and delayed mode of working are the big
pros for an ml. Having to pay internet access by the minute does not
encourage usage of chats.
The one time I peeked into a chat, "stupid" seemed to be the word to
describe the communication going on, seemed not to be worthwhile to try
again.
> Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was
> available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel.
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> > Hope to see it soon.
> Yes, I would like too, if Carl could possibly drop a note here :-)
Carl? Are you listening? ;-)
> >>> It should be easy to add threading, though. But still, it wouldn't
> >>> be as accesible as a mailing list.
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> > guess nearly everyone with access to the web uses email).
> So you comment your own words? ;-)
Yup, sometimes, if I later on think my previous words weren't all that
clear - I'm not sure my comment was an improvement, though :-)
> >> We just need to stabilise a bit. Some developers invest
> >> tens of hours into the stuff, as free time permits them to do so. They
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> take some time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all
> about - to get to actual state of things ....
Well, I'm syncing quite regularly at the moment, and I seem to get
conference messages all right. But most of my files show the "not in
sync" red. I renamed my 'developer dir this morning (A tip sent by Carl,
at a time someone mentioned exactly the same problem) - after some time
of syncing I had a look again, and I got "file is different locally"
again. (I had "file is missing locally" before, so I guess the
respective file had been synced, then.
This is link 1.0.2.4.2, the latest I know about.
Where should I look for up to date files?
Kind regards,
Ingo
[14/14] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 23-Nov-2002 13:57
Hello Petr,
Friday, November 22, 2002, 8:34:54 AM, you wrote:
PK> Yes, it means something. I used "stupid", in quotes, as compare the
PK> feeling one gets from being long time chat user vs long time ml user.
PK> Both system have its place here, but why should I explain it to someone,
PK> who admits he "never chatted"? ;-))
PK> Well, I do remember few IRC sessions, moderated, where even Carl was
PK> available. It was some big Amiga event, hundreds of ppl at IRC channel.
PK> Ppl are in-touch one with each other. But the experience comes, only if
PK> you try it ...
I can say that I was a long time advanced chat user as I was some time
creator and administrator of one of the oldest MultiUserDungeon in the
CzechRep. and so understand that I'm not so impressed with the IOS conference,
but that's normal - I'm missing a lot of things event in IRCs channels
(all these toys, emotions, whispering, shouting, yelling and
different channels) --[ that reminds me that I could spend some time
on the R-mud project again :]
ML is different approach as you have more time to express your
opinions and I don't see any reason why to continue in this 'bad-or-good'
discussion, because the more comunication channels for Rebol dedicated
discussions we will have, the better it will be.
>> Could be a problem with my install - all my files are from around
>> july. They _are_ flagged as "not in sync" but that happens so often, I
>> don't pay much attention any more.
PK> It should not happend. Why do you give up? Are you talking about
PK> Evaluation or Developer server. There is plenty of developers from here
PK> in the Developer server area and noone reporting problems like you
PK> describe ... Yes, if you have not logged for too long, it will take some
PK> time to sync-up once again, but that's what is syncing all about - to
PK> get to actual state of things ....
I didn't reported it but I have also problem with IOS - all older
files are red since the last daylight saving. But looking into the Bug
report list - it's reported with id 245
=( Oliva David )=======================( [oliva--david--seznam--cz] )==
=( Earth/Europe/Czech_Republic/Brno )=============================
=( coords: [lat: 49.22 long: 16.67] )=============================
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