Giving up Rebol?/binary skip
[1/18] from: tim::johnsons-web::com at: 10-Dec-2002 13:36
* pat665 <[reboler--ifrance--com]> [021210 13:15]:
> >so send your feedback in and RT will hopefully tell you, when they'll fix it. > > A few days ago, I send feedback about my problem with email. No response. > So why bother sending. My last problem was this : > > fp: open/direct/binary %file.dat > fp: skip fp 10
Oh brother... don't me started! Oh, oh, here I go! This bug has persisted for over 2 years. I've submitted a report on it. I know others have. It's been discussed on this list more than once. I consider it entirely unacceptable that RT has not fixed this. Given the talent and resources at RT, I don't believe that this should be that difficult for them to fix, given some time and attention. I also want to say that this is an example of an oversight that makes rebol vulnerable to criticism. At one time, I demonstrated rebol to some other IT professionals, (and I'm talking about some major organizations here - not some at-home coder like me) and they declined to go further with rebol for this very reason that Patrick is citing above. IOWS, rebol lost a couple of potentially very big clients... Carl, you should be reading this... -this IS a weakness - less the bug itself than the length of persistance. -tim-
> These lines freeze Rebol. I think this is a bug known as the seek bug. But I'am not sure. > * * * Robert M. Muench said * * *
<<quoted lines omitted: 27>>> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com
[2/18] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 11-Dec-2002 0:24
Tim Johnson wrote:
>* pat665 <[reboler--ifrance--com]> [021210 13:15]: >>>so send your feedback in and RT will hopefully tell you, when they'll fix it.
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>> and they declined to go further with rebol for this very reason that > Patrick is citing above.
Yes, not having proper tech support is nearly suicide nowadays. Even mySQL has its commercial company nowadays and they do sell tech support. I think that RT need proper marketing manager to create network of VARs and OEMs. It is up to us too, to stand in, and as for Czech republic, there is some plan already ;-) I can second your opinion. RT has to realise (and I think Carl is open enough to listen), that if something was killing them in last two years, it was lack of proper tech support. I hope it now changed and situation will get better ... As for big organisations, I am rather skeptic. I work as e-biz manager for very big metal industry company, and I can tell you, there can be some chance. Not all companie are willing to invest into new big expensive solutions each year. One SAP is enough, isn't it? I think that RT is starting to miss another train here. I mentioned SAP e.g. Communication of SAP is changing from RFC to XML stuff, SOAP etc. Other big sw in our company - Lotus Notes platform 6.0 - good XML support too or so I heard. So, as I know many managers, I think I know how do the think. They will look into Rebol spec sheet and ask - what XML support it offers? Well ... that answers everything - status - closed. And it does not really matter, if community has few quick XML hacks flying around. If it will not appear in some spec-sheet/white-paper, it will not be considered. We can object, that Rebol offers easier way of communication, but that's all we can do about it. Our SAP or LN folks will tell me -here's SOAP, ebXML etc., accept it, or go away ... We are going to stay isolated in business area imo, unless we support XML. Some ppl here could object, that DCOM or so is more important, but imo it is not. XML is gonna to become universal cross-app glue, sooner than later ....
> IOWS, rebol lost a couple of potentially very big clients... > > Carl, you should be reading this... > -this IS a weakness - less the bug itself than the length of persistance. >
I believe it is going to change soon enough now ... -pekr-
[3/18] from: al:bri:xtra at: 11-Dec-2002 12:47
> > A few days ago, I send feedback about my problem with email. No
> > So why bother sending. My last problem was this : > >
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> I know others have. It's been discussed on this list more than once. > I consider it entirely unacceptable that RT has not fixed this.
REBOL Developer News - Nov/2002 Here is a quick update on what's happening with REBOL - and, the many changes that you can expect to see during November. 1.. REBOL/Core - Minor release that include bug fixes and changes. Important fixes will include the /skip (file seek) problem, and /direct/read/lines problem, as well as others. Now if only Rebol HQ could update the current versions of Rebol/Core, Rebol/View and so on... :) Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/
[4/18] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 11-Dec-2002 12:36
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Johnson" <[tim--johnsons-web--com]>
> This bug has persisted for over 2 years. I've submitted a report on it. > I know others have. It's been discussed on this list more than once. > > I consider it entirely unacceptable that RT has not fixed this. > Given the talent and resources at RT, I don't believe that this > should be that difficult for them to fix, given some time and attention.
Carl mentioned this bug on AltME. Although it was initially scheduled for the November fix, it has been delayed again as I think he said that the bug goes deeply into Rebol and will require alterations to other parts of Rebol which are not ready to be released yet. --Graham http://www.compkarori.com/cerebrus
[5/18] from: carl:s:rebol at: 10-Dec-2002 20:31
At 01:36 PM 12/10/02 -0900, you wrote:
> > A few days ago, I send feedback about my problem with email. No response. > > So why bother sending. My last problem was this : > > > > fp: open/direct/binary %file.dat > > fp: skip fp 10
No... you won't be getting a response. As we've stated here and on our website, feedback must be posted to us using http://www.rebol.com/feedback.html. This is the only way we can answer and prioritize feedback (i.e. fixed format submission as opposed to freeform submission). 95% of web-based feedback gets answered in about 1-2 days on average, and it is cross-posted to our bug database as necessary. If you do not get a reply... it's because you did not provide a valid email address, or your email bounced for some other reason (invalid user, account cancelled, exceeded email storage, ISP is gone, etc., we've seen them all). WRT this bug (binary skip) it has been fixed for a while; however, problem of getting it to you is complex. As we've stated before, we plan to integrate the fix into upcoming releases of SDK (no, it won't make it into Beta 1 which ships today, but perhaps Beta 2), IOS, and Command, then eventually the free products. If you require faster response for your larger customers, please contact us to setup a consulting/support contract. We can provide a rapid 24 hour response, depending on the level of cash compensation. -Carl REBOL Chief
[6/18] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 11-Dec-2002 10:36
Carl at REBOL wrote:
> WRT this bug (binary skip) it has been fixed for a while; however, > problem of getting it to you is complex.
[speculation on] Is that "complexity" problem related to hopefully upcoming async networking stuff? :-) And if so, when is Beta 2 planned approximately? [speculation off] -pekr-
[7/18] from: reboler:ifrance at: 11-Dec-2002 9:17
No, Carl It's too easy to blame network, ISP, or invalid email address ! A few days ago, I unsubscribe from this list for technical reasons (then subscribe again with another email address). Doing this, I have received from your team the following: Thank you for participating in the discussion of our product. We hope that you return soon! If you are leaving this list because of a specific reason, please email a description of the issue to [feedback--rebol--com] and we will attempt to correct it. Thanks for visiting, The REBOL Team Basically I have done as told. And when you say :
>If you require faster response for your larger customers, >please contact us to setup a consulting/support contract. >We can provide a rapid 24 hour response, >depending on the level of cash compensation.
I think it is offensive, and disrespectful. (Je n'ai malheureusement pas assez de mots en anglais pour exprimer à quel point cette attitude méprisante me consterne. Quelle déception ! quel gâchis ! ) -Patrick Rebol user
[8/18] from: chalz::earthlink::net at: 11-Dec-2002 14:14
Re: <rant> Re: Giving up Rebol?/binary skip
> I think it is offensive, and disrespectful. > > (Je n'ai malheureusement pas assez de mots en anglais pour exprimer > à quel point cette attitude méprisante me consterne. > Quelle déception ! quel gâchis ! ) > > -Patrick > Rebol user
Ya know, they DO have a business to run. See how much free help you get from Microsoft with personal problems with their products! When you've got people doing JUST tech support, if you're paying them, you're taking money from the programmers' hands to pay for that tech support. It's vastly common for pay-support contracts. Even most ISPs offer free help, but also require you pay extra for support on certain advanced topics. And sometimes, that's why a product or service is costs more somewhere than elsewhere - because of the support they offer. No one who starts a business is doing it to benefit the human race, man. It's to make money, so you can survive, so you can do something you don't despise forever. And yes, ultimately, when it comes down to it, life is basically about money in our nice little global community, because you need money to pay bills and buy food. Have you purchased any REBOL products? If so, then you might have some reason to complain there. I haven't paid, and I don't make undue demands on them. I would LIKE to buy some of their products, but I can't afford to. Not because the prices are unreasonable, but simply because I'm just a hobbyist, I don't make money using REBOL. It's WONDERFUL as a free tool - I love it! And if I were using it to make money, then certainly I would buy their software - because I would really love a copy of Command. Like with my blacksmithing - I just use it as a hobby, so I haven't subscribed to the local chapter, all of $35/yr. But I don't make enough from the hobby to warrant the expense, so I don't complain about what they do or don't offer, when I /do/ get free stuff from them. *pant pant* Sorry, going off track. Basically, they are a business. They have employees to pay, bills to pay, taxes to pay, contracts to pay. Sure, they could use a nice Geocities website for free instead of that god awfully expensive dedicated server, and rely upon donated assistance from the community *snickers*, and beg people to send them donations to help support the movement. Course, then they'll have to do all of this /alongside/ their normal lives and jobs, as opposed to *being* their jobs. Lots of people have expressed they'd love to be able to code REBOL for a living, because they enjoy it. But you still can't do it full time, because income is required, no matter how much fun it is. Anyways, sorry, </rant>. Go for PHP or Python or whatever completely free and miserably undocumented and complicated other products there are with "maybe you'll get a response from the developer in 36hrs if it's direly important, but don't bet on it" support. Be happy. --Charles REBOL Hobbyist
[9/18] from: reboler:ifrance at: 11-Dec-2002 21:46
Hi Charles, Sorry, but you missed my point. I already know that RT has to make money. However it's RT decision to make free products and I think they getting their payback with the List: bêta testing, reporting bugs (when it works), doing "no pay but glory" stuff. By the way, the day I decided to go for Rebol I bought my /PRO licence and I have not used any /Pro feature since then. I bought the french book to. I am too a hobbyist on the Rebol side (I am a Tech Support for a computer software company). My point was about respect. R*E*S*P*E*C*T . And I am certainly not willing to pay anything to be respected. I think Carl response was disrespectful. That's all. But maybe it's a *cultural* thing. Patrick
[10/18] from: tomc:darkwing:uoregon at: 11-Dec-2002 13:28
without addressing the intent of Carl's response I can say from past experiance that atleast one French national has become infuriated at something I wrote in an email, he thought I was angry and being rude. But nothing could have been further from my intent in that case. From my point of view I was only trying to help someone who had asked for the help. His reaction left me confused and sadened. I never could determine if it was cultural misunderstanding or if he was just unstable. On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, pat665 wrote:
[11/18] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 11-Dec-2002 15:50
Hi Pat, p> My point was about respect. R*E*S*P*E*C*T . p> And I am certainly not willing to pay anything to be respected. p> I think Carl response was disrespectful. That's all. p> But maybe it's a *cultural* thing. I don't know Carl personally, but he seems like a nice enough guy. I didn't read any disrespect in his response, and I'm 99.9% sure he didn't intend any. He would have to be stupid to openly alienate people in this forum, and we all know he's about as far from stupid as you can get. :) If anything, he's pressed for time and trying hard to make his presence known here, which we all appreciate; maybe that led to some wording that was misinterpreted. He's said in the past that email is the worst way to reach them, so I think he was just trying to make clear that direct email is not a valid support channel to help explain why you may not have gotten a response from them. I think RT values us quite a bit, even when they disagree with us. :) -- Gregg
[12/18] from: anton:lexicon at: 12-Dec-2002 13:22
Alright guys, let's get on with it. There is much to discover in rebol, so get to it. I don't want to read pages of arguments - who does? Better invest that effort in discovering and documenting rebol internals so we can all benefit. And remember, this email list is being archived. Let's make sure that the searchable archive is as useful as possible. I want to see more CODE from you guys, and less talk. Here's my latest idea - a tool for reminding me the order of layers on a pizza: view center-face layout [ backdrop effect [gradient] h1 400 yellow "Pizza Layers" center h1 400 "Vegetarian" center green pad 0x20 space 0 style layer box 400x20 layer wheat "cheese" layer pewter "mushrooms" layer gold "pineapple" layer khaki + 0.10.0 "oregano + basil" layer olive * 2 / 3 "olives" layer leaf "capsicum" layer silver "onion" layer wheat "cheese" layer brick "tomato sauce" layer 400x40 main-color "base" ] Anton.
[13/18] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 11-Dec-2002 23:08
Re: Giving up Rebol?/binary skip
Bonjour Patrick, (sorry for most of you on this ML but like Patrick I also express a lot better in my native language and I really think this is needed here) Cher cousin francophone, je me permets de souligner quelques passages de ton récent échange avec cette ML au sujet de ce que tu considères être un manque de respect de la part de Carl. Ce n'est qu'une opinion personnelle, donc sens-toi bien à l'aise d'en disposer à ta guise comme il te conviendra.
> And when you say : > >If you require faster response for your larger customers,
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>> à quel point cette attitude méprisante me consterne. > Quelle déception ! quel gâchis ! )
Je peux comprendre ta frustration par ce qui "te" semble être un ton quelque peu arrogant de la part de Carl. Maisa je crois bien que Carl était un peu exaspéré lui aussi de recevoir tant de "remarques" qui bien que n'étant pas "destructives" sur le fond des choses, ressemblent néanmoins - de par leur ton le plus souvent assez "négatif" à une critique généralement "acerbe" de la part de plusieurs "fidèles et loyaux" lecteurs, dont tu es toujours et j'espères que tu le resteras, une fois cette "crise" émotionelle passée - je ne veux pas ici prétendre non plus qu'il ne s'agit que de "vaines" remontrances sans fondement - loin de là car je crois que plusieurs des requêtes formulées sont bel et bien justifiées et en droit de l'être comme les développeurs que nous sommes ou aspirons pour beaucoup à devenir... donc pour revenir à ce qui me semble être l'essentiel "pour toi" ici, le ton de Carl, je crois simplement qu'il t'a répondu après avoir épuisé tous les autres moyens dont il disposait - en plus de la bonne foi dont il fait vraiment preuve dernièrement en lisant et en répondant (malgré ses autres tâches qui sont aussi lourdes que ce qu'on peut imaginer ...) à presque tous les courriels de la ML qui le et nous concernent, en utilisant ces dernières possibilités, sans s'imaginer que cela pourrait être pris sur ce ton qui, selon moi il n'a pas vraiment eu avec toi, ou à tout le moins, comme tu l'as senti et exprimé. Je crois qu'il a fait de son mieux avec les ressources limitées dont lui et son équipe disposent et qu'il continue de le démontrer plus que jamais - pour le reste tu es peut-être un peu dans le vrai quand tu dis que c'est peut-être aussi "Culturel" - en fait j'en suis sûr, c'est culturel ;-) et chez nous aussi cela nous arrive de grossir "démesurément" les événements jusqu'à ce qu'ils nous soinet alors perçus comme presque des insultes et attaques personnelles. Mais je crois sincèrement qu'ici, Carl fait preuve de beaucoup de générosité - tant en temps qu'en paroles qui se veulent rassurantes et enfin en actes posés qui me semblent néanmoins des améliorations tangibles et "bien réelles" malgré les longues listes de "souhaits" et "d'attente" passée et à venir. Donc je ne peux que t'encourager, cher Patrick, à prendre un peu de recul comme je le fais moi-même désormais devant des situations qui me semblent souvent infranchissables mais qui au fond demeurent pourtant des incontournables - tant avec mon coeur qu'avec mon esprit - pour en arriver ensuite à "apprécier" de nouveau avec toute la quiétude dont je peux faire preuve alors, les "révélations" merveilleuses qui me sont données sur cette Terre pour tantôt m'aider à améliorer ma condition de vie réelle, tantôt me permettre d'atteindre plus facilement - que ce soit en partie ou en totalité - un de mes rêves, ceci généralement en réduisant mes efforts et mon temps de travail, donc en étant plus productif et généralement avec moins de soucis que cela ne le serait autrement ... L'Objectif ultime étant de s'amuser tout en travaillant - ce que j'ai aussi perdu de vue trop longtemps et que je m'efforce dorénavant de ramener en priorité dans ma vie de tous les jours, même lorsque contrainte hors de mon contrôle il y a et continuera d'y avoir!!! C'est avant tout une attitude "intérieure" qui ne peut venir que de soi, indépendamment de ce qui se passe à l'extérieur. Désolé si je déborde un peu mais ces temps-ci mon cheminement personnel va bon train et grâce à lui je me retrouve ainsi que mon équilibre, malgré une baisse "apparente" de rendement, vue de l'extérieur - mais celle-là aussi je n'y ai aucun contrôle - sauf sur ce que j'en pense moi personnellement et cela même mes patrons n'y pourront jamais rien y changer, car j'en ai le plein et entier contrôle, cela ne leur déplaise. Amicalement et respectueusement ;-) Gérard Mais il ne faut pas oublier
[14/18] from: carl:cybercraft at: 12-Dec-2002 19:42
Re: <rant> Re: Giving up Rebol?/binary skip
On 12-Dec-02, Gregg Irwin wrote:
> Hi Pat, >> My point was about respect. R*E*S*P*E*C*T .
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>> didn't read any disrespect in his response, and I'm 99.9% sure he > didn't intend any.
The first sentence was a bit blunt and is probably what's caused the offence. Take it out of the email and it becomes a normal, good, informative post. That said, email feedback is what we've been using for years with RT, so a switch to using a webpage could take time to catch on, even if we have been informed we should do so. The simplest way to train us would be to have an automatic reply to any emails we sent to feedback telling us to use the webpage instead. -- Carl Read
[15/18] from: reboler:ifrance at: 12-Dec-2002 11:09
Hi Tom, Gregg, Anton, Carl and Gérard Let's end this thread, if you want... Tom said
>I can say from past experiance that atleast one >French national has become infuriated at something I wrote
Hi Tom, I hope it was not me. Gregg said
>He would have to be stupid to openly alienate >people in this forum
Hi Gregg, I hope you are right. Anton said
>Better invest that effort in discovering and documenting rebol >internals so we can all benefit.
Hi Anton, you are right... (double cheese pizza, hum). And I too much prefer coding than arguing. Carl said
>The first sentence was a bit blunt and is probably what's caused the >offence. Take it out of the email and it becomes a normal, good, >informative post.
Hi Carl, I am taking it out for the moment. Gérard said
>Donc je ne peux que t'encourager, cher Patrick, à prendre un peu de recul
Salut cousin, ton message est rempli de remarques justes et je t'en remercie. -Patrick Rebol user
[16/18] from: ammon:addept:ws at: 12-Dec-2002 3:08
Hi, Carl Read said: That said, email feedback is what we've been using for years with RT, so a switch to using a webpage could take time to catch on, even if we have been informed we should do so. The simplest way to train us would be to have an automatic reply to any emails we sent to feedback telling us to use the webpage instead. Uhm, did you submit that to feedback? ;-) Enjoy!! Ammon Johnson --- CIO Addept ------------------ (www.addept.ws) 435-616-2322 -------- (ammon AT addept.ws)
[17/18] from: chalz:earthlink at: 12-Dec-2002 18:05
Anton: Is why I posted <rant> in the subject, so it could be avoided by those who would so wish. Anton: Why only veggie? No option for meat in the script. *sniff sniff*
> My point was about respect. R*E*S*P*E*C*T . > > And I am certainly not willing to pay anything to be respected. > I think Carl response was disrespectful. That's all. > But maybe it's a *cultural* thing. > > Patrick
I love the insinuation here. That Americans are a collective culture of disrespectful louts. I won't say anything personal about the French. I am French, though 200 years removed. However.... No. I wrote a page-length here using round-about language to disparage a certain individual, without being too direct about it. Among such language as the above being crude and disrespectful in and of itself, to suggest it's a "cultural" thing. Perhaps it is - the French, in general, it seems, are a sensitive culture, one which takes anything the wrong way at all possible instances. But, no, I'll tame myself, for the sake of the list, bandwidth, and general inter-personal representations presented via the list. However, should you dare to insult either one of my cultures - my centuries' old French culture, my newer American culture, or any of the others I claim as My Own - before me, I will not hold my tongue - or fingers, in this case. Since you don't know which cultures I am comprised of on a whole (I am an American Mutt, after all, though I can claim 5 distinct origins from the past 100-200 years), it would be prudent to make no such attacks at all. Wouldn't you agree? --Charles Proud to be American, AND French, despite the popular image these days of both.
[18/18] from: reboler:ifrance at: 13-Dec-2002 8:50
>> But maybe it's a *cultural* thing.
I was speaking of *my* culture, not yours. It was a self-criticism introducing that I had maybe over-reacted. Now, it's clear that we are both able to over-react. So our cultures are not so different ! Sorry for the misunderstanding. -Patrick
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