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teaching rebol

 [1/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 31-Mar-2003 19:17


I'm looking to teach my child how to program in rebol ( for Duke of Edinburgh awards ). Does any one have a set of lessons for absolute beginners? I've given her Rebol for Dummies to read pro tem. -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cerebrus

 [2/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 31-Mar-2003 11:45


Hi Graham and Gregg,
> I'm looking to teach my child how to program in rebol ( > for Duke of Edinburgh awards ). > > Does any one have a set of lessons for absolute beginners? > > I've given her Rebol for Dummies to read pro tem. > > -- > Graham Chiu
Maybe we should write some up. My son is just getting interested as well. He and some friends set up AltME worlds and I think that inspired him. :) One of the best intro books I had (loaned out now it seems), though not REBOL oriented, was 'How Computer Programming Works' by Dan Appleman. Trouble is that REBOL doesn't quite match its "standard" explanation I'g guess. Still some good concepts in it though. -- Gregg That's the reality and while this was also my first motivation to begin writing some beginners course also, I am always reviewing some material as to what would be most useful to include for this first course. I also got Appleman's bok by last december and I agree with you Gregg. I also learned a bit about other start-up books about doing multimedia with Squeak that is using a constructivist approach - which I think is the best in town but seems that REBOL core doesn't qualify for this kind of view since it doesn't support much about sound like Squeak does. I also considered to start something in the way Dr. Scheme does it or even the way Brian Harvey does it too in his Computer science Logo style 3 books series first book since generally these People don't use a numeric apps only approach to programming which I particularly like and I think that goes hand in hand with the way REBOL can help programmers resolve their problems. And now I think to include an object oreinted part as soon as possible as I will be able in the cursus since it seems the most natural approach to begin thing in the right manner and for being able to encapsulate always bigger and bigger systems while keeping small the number of details to manage at any one time. So I have yet to figure exactly what I will consider as the first material to include but this should permit my 2 sons and other students at large to concretely use their new knowledge in any other programming tasks later in their learning. Since I just completed yesterday at 17:00 the last activity in my course to become a massotherapist, I will now be able to find some time but there is a lot of REBOL details to master for me before becoming fluent with such a course. Nevertheless this will not stop me and I will soon embark on some teaching material - even if I am not very good with my english and I thought to first get in in french for validation by my 2 sons, I think that may be we could collectively establish a learning sequence to include for strict beginners and think about some programming examples to feed the new learners about some way to think about doing real thing using REBOL and then asking them to modify the original code to get some other interesting results - that's the way constructivists use Dr. Scheme, Squeak and Logo in their way of teaching programming and algorithms. What do you think about it ? Can we consider to start first some self thought about this project and then start an AltMe World about Teaching REBOL for beginners to put together interesting pieces coming from each one of us and eventually start something that the community or a small interested group could go with ?

 [3/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 31-Mar-2003 8:52


Hi Graham, GC> I'm looking to teach my child how to program in rebol ( GC> for Duke of Edinburgh awards ). GC> Does any one have a set of lessons for absolute beginners? Maybe we should write some up. My son is just getting interested as well. He and some friends set up AltME worlds and I think that inspired him. :) One of the best intro books I had (loaned out now it seems), though not REBOL oriented, was 'How Computer Programming Works' by Dan Appleman. Trouble is that REBOL doesn't quite match its "standard" explanation I'g guess. Still some good concepts in it though. -- Gregg

 [4/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 31-Mar-2003 12:08


Hi Gregg and Graham, I'm back with another discovery I made on the Web last week and that could help us to start some concrete basis for thinking about REBOL teaching in a fun way that would neverthelesss be useful for learners when they go to other languages later as they eventually need them : http://www.skylit.com/syllabi/JavaMethodsSyllabusA.pdf As you will notice this syllabus is based on the use of a recent bokk about Java and it seems much fun even if I didn't get it by now. I plan to acquire it in the next few weeks just to see how they really introduce those concepts in concrete terms. Could this level of concepts - adapted for REBOL - be considered by each of you for teaching to your own sons ? How old are they respectively ? Mine are 13 and 16 now. HTH, Gerard

 [5/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 31-Mar-2003 12:49


Hi Gregg and Graham, and then finally I also found another book about Java that could also serve as a basis to help us to plan the learning concepts sequence if we find it useful too in addition to the first ones submitted. http://knking.com/books/java/content.html I left out a last book written in FRENCH that also pretends to teach JAVA by example - and some apps look much like some already present in the REBOL library so this doesn't present as much interest except again for a comparative pov. HTH, Gerard

 [6/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 31-Mar-2003 12:22


Hi again, As I am just reviewing 2 of the other syllabi suggested by the Java book reader, I thought that may be this learning sequence could be better adapted for younger students since it covers less material and teaches it in less time (15 weeks instead of 30 in the last syllabus I submitted for you to review) while keeping it fun to learn anyway : http://www.skylit.com/syllabi/JavaMethodsSyllabusIntro.pdf For a syllabus based on more advanced material - like not trivial data structures, we could instead think about using this syllabus as our work basis : http://www.skylit.com/syllabi/JavaMethodsSyllabusAB.pdf HTH, Gerard

 [7/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 31-Mar-2003 13:03


Hi Gerard, I'll try to find some time to read your posts in detail and look into the things you mentioned. Busy lately though, so don't let me forget about it! :) Thanks! -- Gregg

 [8/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 1-Apr-2003 10:36


Hi Gregg/Gerard, I've taken the posts here and created a wiki thread to develop this further: http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r?selector=display&snip=start See Rebol School. An AltMe world is okay for near real time discussion, but is emphemeral and effectively gone once it has scrolled off the buffer. However, I plan to take over the RIT topic on Rebol World as that is now dead. My girls are 14 and 10. I was thinking of more of a problem solving approach ... but that may be too hard. Give them a few basics, a problem to solve and help them thru it. I was thinking that formal curriculae might be too boring for my 10 year old... though I guess she manages school okay :) -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r

 [9/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 31-Mar-2003 16:45


Hi Graham, GC> I was thinking of more of a problem solving approach ... GC> but that may be too hard. Give them a few basics, a GC> problem to solve and help them thru it. I was thinking GC> that formal curriculae might be too boring for my 10 year GC> old... though I guess she manages school okay :) Thanks for scribing things Graham. My son is 12, and we have a little girl who's almost 8 (and loves Age of Empires :). We home-school, as do many of our neighbors. I think a problem solving approach is exactly the right way to go about it. I have a very crude Logo dialect which we might put to use. I'll have to do some research to refresh my memory on some of those things, but I think we could do something similar, starting with small dialects (for them to work in) and working our way up to raw REBOL. -- Gregg

 [10/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 1-Apr-2003 13:47


On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:45:55 -0700 Gregg Irwin <[greggirwin--mindspring--com]> wrote:
>Thanks for scribing things Graham. My son is 12, and we >have a little >girl who's almost 8 (and loves Age of Empires :). > >We home-school, as do many of our neighbors. I think a
Wow, I don't think I could home school. I just don't have the patience or time.
>problem solving >approach is exactly the right way to go about it. I have >a very crude >Logo dialect which we might put to use. I'll have to do >some research
Actually I tried teaching my 14 year old Amiga Logo ( written also by Carl ) when she was a lot younger, but she tired quickly. I think we want to do more immediately awesome stuff like sending email from command lines, reading web pages, screen scraping, etc. I don't think we should shield them from raw Rebol at the start .. we don't with English do we? What do you think? -- Graham Chiu

 [11/41] from: tbrownell:L3TECHNOLOGY at: 31-Mar-2003 17:23


I have a 9 year old daughter who keeps bugging me to teach her as well. We too home school, and are very happy with the results. Both of our daughters have already skipped a grade, and get straight A's. Here's an interesting clip from an interview of Marvin Minsky (inventor of the first LOGO turtle) on home schooling... In the July 1994 _Communications of the ACM_ there is an interview with Marvin Minsky (former director of the MIT AI lab, widely considered to be one of the fathers of artificial intelligence, and an occasional collaborator of Seymour Papert's). Among other things he says (on page 26): (Interviewer): ...For an older student in a conservatory, we can imagine having to study Gregorian chants for a few months before getting any highly (positive) feedback. But in the case of a five-year-old child learning piano or composing, we cannot depend only on delayed feedback or abstract feedback. Minsky: I'm afraid that's true, at least for most young children, but the evidence is that many of our foremost achievers developed under conditions that are not much like those of present-day mass education. Robert Lawler just showed me a paper by Harold Macurdy on the child pattern of genius. Macurdy reviews the early education of many eminent people from the last couple of centuries and concludes (1) that most of them had an enormous amount of attention paid to them by one or both parents and (2) that generally they were relatively isolated from other children. This is very different from what most people today consider an ideal school. It seems to me that much of what we call education is really socialization. Consider what we do to our kids. Is it really a good idea to send your 6-year-old into a room full of 6-year-olds, and then, the next year, to put your 7-year-old in with 7-year-olds, and so on? A simple recursive argument suggests this exposes them to a real danger of all growing up with the minds of 6-year-olds. And, so far as I can see, that's exactly what happens. Our present culture may be largely shaped by this strange idea of isolating children's thought from adult thought. Perhaps the way our culture educates its children better explains why most of us come out as dumb as they do, than it explains how some of us come out as smart as they do. http://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/ Terry -----Original Message-----s From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]]On Behalf Of Gregg Irwin Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:46 PM To: Graham Chiu Subject: [REBOL] Re: teaching rebol Hi Graham, GC> I was thinking of more of a problem solving approach ... GC> but that may be too hard. Give them a few basics, a GC> problem to solve and help them thru it. I was thinking GC> that formal curriculae might be too boring for my 10 year GC> old... though I guess she manages school okay :) Thanks for scribing things Graham. My son is 12, and we have a little girl who's almost 8 (and loves Age of Empires :). We home-school, as do many of our neighbors. I think a problem solving approach is exactly the right way to go about it. I have a very crude Logo dialect which we might put to use. I'll have to do some research to refresh my memory on some of those things, but I think we could do something similar, starting with small dialects (for them to work in) and working our way up to raw REBOL. -- Gregg

 [12/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 31-Mar-2003 20:07


Hi Graham, GC> Wow, I don't think I could home school. I just don't have GC> the patience or time. My wife does most of the "daily regimen" stuff, and I just chime in with wacky ideas throughout the day. Life is an education, you just have to pay attention. Right Terry? :) GC> I think we want to do more immediately awesome stuff like GC> sending email from command lines, reading web pages, GC> screen scraping, etc. GC> I don't think we should shield them from raw Rebol at the GC> start .. we don't with English do we? I'm not sure what will be best, but I think that starting with a limited dialect, that is tailored for solving the problems we start them out on, is still priming them for the full power of REBOL. James, my son, is having fun just playing around with stuff - printing in the console and making layouts with View. Tonight he said he wants to learn enough to make a schedule for himself. With a clock and task entries. The computer our kids get to use is pretty old (P133, 32M RAM), and doesn't have net access (though that could be made to happen). I need to look at some old Logo stuff to get ideas. I liked the turtle approach because it makes it easy to see when things go wrong and gives you a model to work with for how to figure them out and fix them. --Gregg

 [13/41] from: Mike:withforesight at: 31-Mar-2003 23:07


Can I add my 2 cents to this thread ... My son is 9 and has shown an interest in learning something about programming. We spent some time playing around with REBOL but quickly came to the conclusion it would take a great deal of work to get him to the point where he could actually do "fun' things. Turns out there are lots of academic folks working in this area and a few good commercial products. On the academic side see, for example John Pane's work at Carnegie Mellon University The Snip below is from http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~NatProg/index.html HANDS: Programming for Children: HANDS is a new programming system for children. HANDS provides a concrete model for computation as an alternative to requiring beginners to learn a whole new set of programming concepts like procedures, variables, parameters, scoping, flow of control, etc. In HANDS, the computation is represented by a character sitting at a table, reacting to events and manipulating cards that contain all of the program's data. ... On the commercial side there is Agentsheets (an outgrowth of work done at University of Colorado) see: http://agentsheets.com/products/index.html (free time delimited demo or $120 to purchase) Snippet ... Agentsheets is a revolutionary authoring tool that allows non-programmers to create agents with behaviors and missions, teach agents to react to information and process it in personalized ways, and combine agents to create sophisticated interactive simulations and models.... Nice set of sample apps for kids to play with but, IMHO, it lacks a good tutorial and is probably suitable for older kids (14 & up). My son and I have used Stagecast ( see http://www.stagecast.com/ from which the following is snipped. In the classroom, Creator gives you and your students the power to create lively interactive simulations for math, reading, science and more. Creator can be used for any subject, for any grade level, by both boys and girls, and by students with a wide variety of learning styles. Children learn by building things. It offers a 3 month free trial and the purchase price is $49.95 USD Stagecraft has a great tutorial and kids are "up and running" in minutes... really remarkable. Notice the end sentence: "Children learn by building things." Perhaps this rule also applies to adults (especially those wanting to learn REBOL). I think it would be great if we could duplicate the stagecraft tutorial using REBOL (View -- no doubt). Something well beyond my ability with REBOL. Make something so that REBOL becomes the language of choice for teaching programming in high school... (where have I seen that strategy before...) thanks for reading this far... Mike Behar [rebolite--withforesight--com]

 [14/41] from: amicom:sonic at: 31-Mar-2003 20:50


Oddly enough, I started teaching my 6-year-old son Rebol right before this thread got started. He is also homeschooled and is working at a very accelerated pace when compared to the norm (but it is his normal pace). I am teaching him raw Rebol. He chose the project he wants to work on and we work in the direction of that goal learning whatever needs to be learned along the way, including typing, spelling, using other applications to create graphics, etc., math, and yes, even some raw Rebol. In some circles, methods such as this are known as "unschooling," but I am not a proponent for "unschooling" as the sole means for learning. I am, however, very much in favor of teaching every child in the method best suited for that child. We have three children being homeschooled right now and they all learn best in different ways. I am very pleased and blessed to have a wife who is so willing and able to homeschool them. Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky Lechnowsky Technical Consulting At 01:47 PM 4/1/03 +1200, you wrote:

 [15/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 1-Apr-2003 18:21


On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:07:37 -0500 4Sight <[Mike--withforesight--com]> wrote:
>My son is 9 and has shown an interest in learning >something about
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> to the point where >he could actually do "fun' things.
I wonder where the stumbling block occurred.
>Stagecraft has a great tutorial and kids are "up and >running" in minutes...
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>(especially those wanting >to learn REBOL).
I looked at this, and it is cute .. and beyond my View skills, but in the end, I want my daughter to know a programming language specifically Rebol, and I don't see this as helping much.
>Make something so that REBOL becomes the language of >choice for teaching >programming in high school... (where have I seen that >strategy before...)
Yep ...and I agree that the visual side is the way to go. Perhaps start with a basic VID screen, and add buttons, actions etc to achieve this aim. I learnt Rebol from the necessity of having to do certain tasks, and I think it's a good way though not the comp sci way of learning things. -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r

 [16/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 1-Apr-2003 18:54


On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:50:48 -0800 Bohdan or Rosemary Lechnowsky <[amicom--sonic--net]> wrote:
>We have three >children being homeschooled right now and they all learn >best in different ways. >
I think we have to remember that this not going to be a single best way for any single child. But if there is a selection of material or experiences that we can select from it will help in not replicating the design of the wheel. -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r Rebol school for dummies :)

 [17/41] from: gschwarz:netconnect:au at: 1-Apr-2003 17:30


I have noticed that many on this list home school (We have started with our 5 year old son). Is there a large % of Rebol users are home schoolers, compared with the general population? Regards, Greg

 [18/41] from: bry:itnisk at: 1-Apr-2003 11:13


Maybe one should have a LOGO-like dialect. Teach the dialect, then start to teach how the dialect is put together, how to add to the dialect.

 [19/41] from: ingo:h-o-h at: 1-Apr-2003 13:05


Hi Gerard, and all interested, as coincidences go, I just had the idea to write something up in the style of the "little Schemer", so here it is "The Little Reboler". Tell me what you think about it so far (I know, it's only 4 and a bit pages, but anyway ...) http://www.h-o-h.org/little_Reboler.pdf (not linked from anywhere, so far) Kind regards, Ingo

 [20/41] from: steve:shireman:semaxwireless at: 1-Apr-2003 6:51


Draw is a very logo-like dialect....even with the same name that Logo uses... looking for the link... http://www.rebol.com/docs/draw.html Gregg has a small logo he has written a while back. Might try the kids on the How-To Tutorials http://www.rebol.com/how-to.html from the Rebol Website. Those online documents are better than most books, just in case anyone hasn't noticed. Core document is crisp and full of simple examples to illustrate points. Another Intro: http://www.rebol.com/rebolintro.html Most have probably seen these, but just in case...I have trouble finding this great writing at the bookstores Steve Shireman www.efishantsea.com why shouldn't computing become eFishAnt? bryan wrote:

 [21/41] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 1-Apr-2003 15:04


Hi Ingo, On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, 1:05:03 PM, you wrote: IH> http://www.h-o-h.org/little_Reboler.pdf I get a 403 Forbidden... Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r

 [22/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 1-Apr-2003 9:07


Steve, Mike, Bo et al Wow! This topic seems to have struck a chord! Thanks for all the input and thoughts Mike. I have to be on site today, but will try to find time, maybe next week, to look into things some more. In the meantime, let's keep brainstorming. I like the idea of starting with a small dialect. I don't think it shields them entirely Graham, as you would still be working with basic concepts that exist in REBOL (e.g. datatypes) but I don't want to scare them off with the concepts of words which may or may not be variables, mutable vs. immutable values, etc. right away. Also, I agree that they will want to do something concrete. That's very important. My son just likes playing with LAYOUT and trying different values for colors and sizes, then he wanted to change the text on in a face when you clicked a button, etc. VID is almost like a turtle for GUI layouts. :) -- Gregg

 [23/41] from: ingo:h-o-h at: 1-Apr-2003 18:45


Thanks Gabriele, Maarten (in alphabetical order), the fun of using ftp ... the rights have been updated to let you actually read the file ;-) Kind regards, Ingo Gabriele Santilli wrote:

 [24/41] from: steve:shireman:semaxwireless at: 1-Apr-2003 13:26


Moi aussie, maybe we are not meant to partake of the tree of knowledge? Steve Shireman www.efishantsea.com ... throw them a fish and they eat for a day. teach them to be eFishAnt and they Sea the way computing should be in their lifetime Gabriele Santilli wrote:

 [25/41] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 1-Apr-2003 12:11


Hello Rebols: I haven't followed this thread closely, but I noted earlier that I believe that it started with a posting from Gerard Cote, who had contacted me at an earlier time because he know that I had designed and taught an intro to programming class using rebol. Let me share some of my observations after building the course and "teaching" 3 semesters of rebol and 1 of python: Let me point out also that this is an "online" school. 1)Distinguish between Teaching programming using rebol - and - Teaching rebol programming. ==>> As we know, rebol has some unique features 2)Consider some custom features to make the command line more interesting and user-friendly. ==>>MIT Scheme is a good example. I believe that some of the features reside in works that rebol gurus have contributed to the library, include console history features. 3)Consider your targets: If your targets are programmers who want to learn to use rebol productively, start with 'words..... take it from someone who's been there, if you don't understand 'words thoroughly (and I must confess that I still don't as much as I would like) you don't thoroughly tap the power of rebol and set yourself up for hard-to-trace errors. If your targets are youngsters just learning programming - is it fair to just train them to use rebol? Or is it fair to make clear distinctions between variables and 'words. In my class, (which is a very basic intro), I treated 'words as variables. Although, I did info some of the more advanced that there were distinctions. 4)My experience is that in the high school system (Alaska, USA) there is a very low completion rate among students. The conclusion that I came to after teaching 3 semesters of rebol and one of python, (in an online venue) is that online courses should be used to support trained instructors who teach real "brick and mortar" classes. It is a different situation for a motivated adult who might see learning rebol or any other programming language is part of career path. My two cents worth. "get 'em while they're young" :-) -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [26/41] from: ingo:h-o-h at: 2-Apr-2003 0:32


Hi Steve, I admit I musta have messed my rights on the first upload, but it should work now (at least, *I* was able to read the link, now ;-) Kind regards, Ingo Steve Shireman wrote:

 [27/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 2-Apr-2003 12:36


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:11:27 -0900 Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> wrote:
> I haven't followed this thread closely, but I noted >earlier that I believe that it started with a posting >from >Gerard Cote, who had contacted me at an earlier time
Actually it was I who started the thread this time round as I want to teach my child.
>Let me share some of my observations after building the >course >and "teaching" 3 semesters of rebol and 1 of python:
What's the URI for the instructional material?
> If your targets are youngsters just learning >programming > - is it fair to just train them to use rebol? Or is
Not going to teach them anything else!
>The > conclusion that I came to after teaching 3 semesters >of rebol > and one of python, (in an online venue) is that online > courses should be used to support trained instructors > who teach real "brick and mortar" classes.
Yes, that's the intention .. to build up a repository of teaching material that we can teach our youngsters with .. not to create an online class. That is a task more suited for adults and part of the Rebol Institute of Technology initiative also at http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r -- Graham Chiu

 [28/41] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 1-Apr-2003 16:42


Hello Graham: * Graham Chiu <[gchiu--compkarori--co--nz]> [030401 16:20]:
> On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:11:27 -0900 > Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> Actually it was I who started the thread this time round > as I want to teach my child.
:-) I stand corrected!
> > > >Let me share some of my observations after building the > >course > >and "teaching" 3 semesters of rebol and 1 of python: > > What's the URI for the instructional material?
I'm very sorry, but it is not available. The work was done under a copyright, and the content is not available for me to share. (but read on)
> > If your targets are youngsters just learning > >programming > > - is it fair to just train them to use rebol? Or is > > Not going to teach them anything else!
Please understand that my thoughts were generic and and meant for general dicussion. But now speaking not as a parent (I have 6 children) but as an owner of a business - I would *never* hire someone who was not willing to learn a language other than rebol - even 'though I use rebol the majority of the time myself. I would strongly recommend that any young person interested in programming be willing to learn more than one language. <wink>God forbid, they might settle on perl</wink> -- I wouldn't want my partner to read this hahah!....
> >The > > conclusion that I came to after teaching 3 semesters
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> Rebol Institute of Technology initiative also at > http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r
Graham: very nice! When I have time, I will look at this more closely. (I do have the freedom to release portions of the content for the course I mentioned above.) Regards -tim- -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [29/41] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 2-Apr-2003 17:26


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:42:38 -0900 Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> wrote:
> But now speaking not as a parent (I have 6 children) > but as an owner of a business - I would *never* hire > someone who was not willing to learn a language other > than rebol - even 'though I use rebol the majority > of the time myself.
Hi Tim, Not quite what I said. Would you hire me when I am unwilling to *teach* another language apart from Rebol ? :)
> I would strongly recommend that any young person > interested in programming be willing to learn > more than one language.
No disagreement there, but let them learn a first class language first before corrupting their minds with something ancient. -- Graham Chiu http://www.compkarori.com/cgi-local/vanilla.r Rebol Institute of Technology organiser

 [30/41] from: Al:Bri:xtra at: 2-Apr-2003 19:31


Bryan wrote:
> Maybe one should have a LOGO-like dialect. Teach the dialect, then start
to teach how the dialect is put together, how to add to the dialect. I'm against creating a dialect purely for teaching purposes. It's better to create a dialect that's useful, instead. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [31/41] from: antonr:iinet:au at: 2-Apr-2003 17:55


Yeah! How about a teaching dialect, so we can just write: teach little blighters how to code Anton.

 [32/41] from: lmecir:mbox:vol:cz at: 2-Apr-2003 11:12


Hi Ingo, in http://www.h-o-h.org/little_Reboler.pdf you wrote: {Numbers are so small, that they can be easier saved "in the word" ...} This may depend on the implementation. But it is at least questionable - see aliases. Regards -L

 [33/41] from: ingo:h-o-h at: 2-Apr-2003 17:46


Thanks Ladislav, what I really wanted to do was hint to the difference of a: b for a and b being numbers opposed to a and b being, e.g. strings, will have to think about it again, maybe it will become clear with time, anyway. Kind regards, Ingo Ladislav Mecir wrote:

 [34/41] from: lmecir:mbox:vol:cz at: 2-Apr-2003 19:19


Hi Ingo, ...
> what I really wanted to do was hint to the difference of > > a: b > > for a and b being numbers opposed to a and b being, e.g. strings, will > have to think about it again
... you are right. There is a need to explain some "unusual" properties. A lot of explanations tries to point at the difference between simple datatypes and "container" datatypes, like a: 0 b: 0 versus c: "" d: c e: "" Unfortunately, the cases are more similar, than many are admitting. 1) Even an integer can be considered to "contain" some properties (eg. the values of its 32 bits or a datatype) 2) For the same reason why you cannot change the value of an integer, it isn't possible to change the index of a string or its type. Of course, this has nothing to do with your ability to "create/obtain" a new value having different properties than the original had. Regards -L

 [35/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 2-Apr-2003 10:18


Hi Tim, TJ> But now speaking not as a parent (I have 6 children) TJ> but as an owner of a business - I would *never* hire TJ> someone who was not willing to learn a language other TJ> than rebol - even 'though I use rebol the majority TJ> of the time myself. TJ> I would strongly recommend that any young person TJ> interested in programming be willing to learn TJ> more than one language. I agree that a willingness to learn pretty much anything is a good quality, but I also think it's good to have specialists as well as generalists just as other fields of endeavor have. I don't think this is any different than any other skill a job might require. I.e. if I get a job at a steel fabrication plant and someone says "you need to learn to weld; don't worry, we have a training program", OK, I need to learn to weld, and I should be happy for the opportunity. However, you might also run into "First, you need to learn to weld, then we *might* hire you", which isn't so cut and dried. There could also be "You know, we've heard that a some other people who do this kind of work also know how to do timber framing. We don't have any plans to do that kind of thing, but you should know how to do it anyway." -- Gregg

 [36/41] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 2-Apr-2003 10:07


Hi Andrew, AM> I'm against creating a dialect purely for teaching purposes. It's better to AM> create a dialect that's useful, instead. It would be useful, if it helps to teach concepts though, no? To me, the experts who are the best at explaining advanced concepts to normal people (i.e. people out of the know) are able to distill the important principles and elements and express them in ways that may have no "real value" beyond that context. Would you agree or disagree with that statement? -- Gregg

 [37/41] from: Al:Bri:xtra at: 3-Apr-2003 19:17


Andrew wrote:
> > I'm against creating a dialect purely for teaching purposes. It's better
to create a dialect that's useful, instead. Gregg wrote:
> It would be useful, if it helps to teach concepts though, no?
I think a worked example would be better. I'm against creating something that's purely intended to be learnt and then discarded. It's a waste of time for the teacher and the student.
> To me, the experts who are the best at explaining advanced concepts to
normal people (i.e. people out of the know) are able to distill the important principles and elements and express them in ways that may have no real value beyond that context.
> Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
I think that important principals can be learned in one area and applied to another out of that context. For example, learning carpentry and applying the knowledge to samurai sword duels. See Miyamoto Mushashi's Book of Five Rings for more on this. As one acquires bodies of knowledge, one's ability to learn more bodies of knowledge becomes better -- one learns more of how to to learn more! That probably means I disagree with the statement. :) Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [38/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 3-Apr-2003 19:53


Hi everybody,
> Hi Graham, > GC> I was thinking of more of a problem solving approach ...
<<quoted lines omitted: 11>>
> and working our way up to raw REBOL. > -- Gregg
I agree too that this the problem solving approach is the way to go. You can also look at the following article about problem solving : http://www.cs.ukc.ac.uk/moved/stork/Html/Courses/probSolving.html if some doubts lie in your spirit (Which I don't think so anyway). But it seems that here in Quebec City the math teachers of my 2 sons already use this approach and do it well. Seems to me like this fact has changed for the better from the time I was myself studying my maths. Furthermore this other language can be a useful reminder as to how we could (or should) consider small languages as a useful mean to help youngsters to learn programming : http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~plb/papers/minilang.html In fact what fools me is what kind of problem I have to select for really being helpful to them at home while at the same time keeping their interests high too and later being useful in their way of using the computer at work. I have to admit that except for spending most of time alone some fun time with my computer I don't really see how tu use it quickly for many of the home tasks I have at hand - except may be for writing letters and msgs for correspondence with friends, create interesting birthday cards, manage home finance, etc... Most of the time I'm experimenting some programming concepts that don't really interest any of my family members or even friends and that are not really useful to anybody else even if I would like to do much more - but time is at premium and programming as it is now is not to be considered a help in this way... and this has not changed a lot since I did my first program on my first computer : a Commodore PET with its own 8k RAM back in 1977 !!! I feel myself like a hobbyist doing something for himself most of the time instead of being really useful to others ... and keeping inside instead of going outdoors - but the two can't easily be mixed I think. It's a matter of personal taste and life is definitely too short for me to fulfill both ... satisfactorily! Coming back to what you expressed before, what would you like to consider now as a basis of experiment for the problem solving approach, some LOGO style (see the following links http://caesar.elte.hu/~eurologo/lectures/koutlis.htm and http://www.thrace-net.gr/bridges/koutl.html where is driven Logo these days!) or a more natural current life situation ? (See : http://www.edweek.org/sreports/tc99/articles/tools.htm). I must admit that I would favor the last one but this is also prone to getting too much details to cope with for true beginners - so I'll do my best in this way since my children are now playing some advanced video games and they no more maintain interest while keeping up with the required effort to do somethning useful in a short time. In this way Graham, I found your reference (or does it come from someone else ?) to Stagecast's Creator suggestion very interesting. I personally think the visual way of doing things as used by stagecast's Creator represents some part of the solution necessary to decrease the TIME bottleneck currently associated with programming. Even somewhat limited as it is in its current use, I see it as some kind of a code generator paired with a macro recorder. That is by applying to the visual objects selected to appear on the screen some predefined canned actions that the stagecast team called RULES, everyone can create some kind of program related to many of the required tasks to solve without having to rebuild again and again the basic blocks used for similar tasks - instead instantly reusing old knowledge already canned for us. If we could come up with a similar product using REBOL and translate these underlying actions into some corresponding DIALECT that could then be extended to open at large the canned effect, the reuse could be more efficient than if everybody had to learn the DIALECT in the first place instead of using a visual metaphor like stagecast did with its Creator. Only later - if necessary to study them - the CODING produced could be studied by interested ppl and worked on directly, but in this case there must exist some bilateral link that should also permit to see the evolving piece into its visual counterpart for others to see and use it again as it is now evolved. See the update about this old link I visited some years ago : http://www.thrace-net.gr/bridges/koutl.html I personnaly think this is the only sure way we will be able to pave the future of programming in the context of reusing what has already been done - putting aside many details for end-users. Here is what some experts have to say about it : http://e-slate.cti.gr/Resources/IEEEComputerArticle.pdf And I also think REBOL is actually one of the best platforms to render this concept as universal and dynamic as it could be - that is distributive and true multi-platforms. For the moment E-Slate educational components are programmed using Java. While I'm touching components, if you want get a refreshing view about a real case regarding the development and implementation of components and their reuse, look at : http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/jrnl/2000-IST-Components/html/comp.html There you'll see how those developed reusable components can now provide real interoperability amongst many existing programming languages. It could be a dream come true for REBOL too if some parts were put in place by RT or some knowledgeable team. I must say that this is not in my competency field however and this is missing me a lot... For sure before the advent of stagecast Creator, many other ppl already tried in some way to apply the same visual approach for teaching youngsters programming as for example: Tha many flavors of Logo and the use of "microworlds" or turtle but this generally falls short of real apps outside the Academic World. Squeak Alice (look at http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/1861) is another which was also implemented with the Squeak programming language but that seems too complicated to me to be of real use for youngsters because of the 3D world coordinates and then what kind of use can we do with it. Lego (Mindstorm) robotics system and other similar games are other potential members where fun can be associated with future usefulness but nevertheless I can't see this as very useful for day to day app. (See also how some students learn how to program their own customized robotized car for racing against others' one using this simulator program before trying their real car constructed around the Lego RCX at : http://www.mindrover.com/mindrover/Education.htm Even if this is a bit complex for youngsters, this can sustain some interest in programming with an implicit goal ... having his own car to be the winner of the many different races available!!! Sorry for being lengthy ... Thank you again Graham for publishing your REBOL School Vanilla web site. I already submitted some references to other articles and plan to offer many others soon. The important thing is the momentum your post suddenly created. I hope we'll be able to put something useful for teaching first programming concepts for youngsters using REBOL and may be REBOL programming too while keeping it fun and useful ... (See Tim Johnson ML post!) -- Gerard

 [39/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 3-Apr-2003 21:01


Hi Ingo,
> Hi Gerard, and all interested, > > as coincidences go, I just had the idea to write something up in the > style of the "little Schemer", so here it is "The Little Reboler". > > Tell me what you think about it so far (I know, it's only 4 and a bit > pages, but anyway ...)
This remembers me the Little Lisper I bought back in the 70s. A nice form of learning based on questions and answers - like an interview. I looked at your work from the ref. posted on the RIT Vanilla web site by Graham. I didn't review it all but I can do it for you and the REBOL community in the next few days for letting you get some feedback about it. Nice work, Ingo Keep up the good work, -- Gerard P.S. Personnally this learning style didn't do very well for me in the past with Lisp learning. Since at this time I had no access to any Lisp system I couldn't figure out very well all what Lisp 1.5 had to offer to me and at the time I found this language had some parts that were hard to understand when compared with FORTRAN which I learned before during my college years. Even APL that I also touched later was hard to live with at first with its own cryptic greek screen and keyboard symbols and then I didn't recognize much resemblance for the 2 beasts. Now it could be different but now is another time too... and some 30 years later ...

 [40/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 4-Apr-2003 2:38


Hi again, For those of you who would be interested by the computer as it is sometimes used in our education system and don't know about some of the most exciting educational resources available that are computer based, here is some feed : 1- A welcome background about current educational research work : http://www-jime.open.ac.uk/98/6/roschelle-98-6.pdf 2- Tools of the trade from the ESCOT web site : http://www.escot.org/resources/components/overview.html 3- An idea of what can be done about MATHS teaching using programming with components-based tools availables from ESCOT : http://www.cecm.sfu.ca/~tstanway/java_wshop.html 4- From the CTI in Greece (E-Slate developers) : http://www.cti.gr/RD3/Eng/EduTech/index.html 5- with a sample view of the "Geometric helper" component available in E-Slate : http://www.cti.gr/RD3/chronis/ 6- And the main site of E-Slate : http://e-slate.cti.gr/ That's all for now, I must go to bed ... --Gerard

 [41/41] from: gerardcote:sympatico:ca at: 4-Apr-2003 13:24


Hi Andrew, and also to others interested in REBOL as a teaching tool, or should I say interested in REBOL as a learning object instead of a tool used to help others to learn or may be both ... But in this case the game to play doen't not necessary have exactly the same rules to play with but some aspects could help in both cases however... Just in case you were interested in any one of the above activities, see the last part of this email and look at what can be done by 4th graders using E-Slate - also named as ComponentLogo. It seems that could also be done pretty well using REBOL if we add some graphical tools to it. I can say that because I having seen some graphical demos circulating here from a couple of years... but work has to be done to isolate the tricky part of the process and getting it available for the masses ! But first to answer Andrew's remark about the usefulness of creating a dialect - reproduced below - just for the sake of teaching I would say what follows this extract :
> Andrew wrote: > > > I'm against creating a dialect purely for teaching purposes. It's better
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> I think that important principals can be learned in one area and applied to > another out of that context.
Perhaps it doesn't really matters to create something new - even a dialect - for any reason except if the usefulness of a computer and as such an accompanying programming language is really questionable at the task at hand. And this can be referred to one of the following reasons that are generally invoked to justify or not the necessity to use such tools : 1- Complexity of the problem to resolve 2- Speed necessary to accomplish the task at hand (Here this means a very small time - Real-Time or a great number of items to handle all in the same precise way - Looping) 3- Reduce the errors and/or minimize error prone situations (Reliability) 4- Reduce the health risks and/or minimize risk prone situations (Security) 5- Ease the task process and even doing it instead of leaving it done by humans (Simplification of a process often means a combination or the above and an apparent greater life level - but many ppl are now without jobs...) Similar to the automation done in the past by way of mechanics, using electricity and computers Other than for any of these main reasons, computer use is not really justified except for fun motivation and even the learning/teaching combo can find a niche inside the former reasons I think. Until recently however and even nowadays, computer was/is used in most part to fulfill the 2nd and 5th reasons above because of the complexity (and cost of development) to replace entirely the human brain while he is brightly teaching - or should we say while he brightly tries to help ppl. learning (some ppl. even don't use the computer in this sense anyway but instead as simple exercisers) and mainly because of the fact that the complexity of identifying and programming the required apps was a big wall that has yet to be jumped over in many if not most areas. ----------------------------------------- And for the first part of this email, follow these links and observe for a few moments a) the nature of projects done by youngsters and the tools they use to do so : http://www.cti.gr/RD3/chronis/Schools.htm#Psychico College --> look under the many Projects sections - one is available for each school b) the creations done by the 4th graders of the Larisa school using many tools including the E-Slate tool (doc and product available at : http://e-slate.cti.gr/) : http://www.cti.gr/RD3/chronis/4th_Larisa_projects.htm#The Wall Finally, as the World is so small, here is a list of other current E-Slate related projects, many of them having been listed already somewhere else in this ML : http://e-slate.cti.gr/Resources.htm Particularly get an eye on this one - may be this will trace our future a bit too, who knows : http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/graphics/research/exploratory/ Regards, -- Gerard

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