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Teaching Rebol => was:{Re: Re: Parsing comment}

 [1/21] from: jason::cunliffe::verizon::net at: 25-Sep-2002 19:27


Hi Carl
> I programmed in Forth and LOGO a long time ago, so REBOL's wordy-ness > is not a new concept to me. While I think it should scale well, I > wonder how easy large programs would be to maintain once the original > programmers have moved on. "Ummm, is that REBOL code in that block, > or someone's dialect?" (:
That is where Python's IDE is great. You can look stuff up many ways, and even get syntax hints on the fly. With conscienscious Docstrings and a 'smart' shell, Rebol could too. There's lots of good IDE ideas around. How about: - colorized syntax for all user functions - status trees in the margin which shows words come from - frequency of use. indicate not only wher but often many times this word has been used. It is very helpful to know say that this is first time a word has appeard since it was defined. Nice to rebolize that of course, like show when a word is used for the first time outside of function or object definition. outside of the current file [has been loaded]
> The console and all those datatypes make your code easy to test and to > trial different ways of doing things. I seem to spend more time > searching for the names of REBOL's native words (which this old brain > has forgotten again:) than I do in tracking down bugs.
My main concern about Dialects is that the new extra vocabulary/syntax to learn and lack of indication. Great for the original deevloper, but alreadyknwo it inside out. But gets harder the further you go from that even though the code looks cleaner and is focused on the applcaition domain closely.
> > What do think about REBOL being used as 'first' > > language and/or for kids? > Tim Johnson would be a better person to ask I think, as he's had some > experience of teaching REBOL to kids. I'd think it would have quite
Thanks. I did not know that.
> The downside would be the lack of documentation, (especially for > View), plus the lack of experienced REBOL programmers to teach the > language. Not a good look when the teacher doesn't know the answer > to a question and hasn't the resources to find it.
Amen. Python is kicking Rebol's ass there. thanks ./Jason

 [2/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 25-Sep-2002 19:41


Hello All: * Jason Cunliffe <[jason--cunliffe--verizon--net]> [020925 18:43]:
> > > What do think about REBOL being used as 'first' > > > language and/or for kids? > > > Tim Johnson would be a better person to ask I think, as he's had some > > experience of teaching REBOL to kids. I'd think it would have quite
My ears were burning .... now I know why! Well.... Despite the comments about documentation I think that rebol's help function is very accomodating for a new programming student. (and BTW I am also teaching python in a similar fashion) just try typing "help split" at the python prompt and see what you get. But seriously, rebol is a very good first programming language. The absense of systems calls in rebol/core is a good thing. I don't have to have the student's parents sign one of those "If you broke it with your program it ain't our fault" kind of contract/disclaimers, as we are doing with python, perl and C.
> > The downside would be the lack of documentation, (especially for > > View), plus the lack of experienced REBOL programmers to teach the > > language. Not a good look when the teacher doesn't know the answer > > to a question and hasn't the resources to find it. > > Amen. > Python is kicking Rebol's ass there.
There is a huge amount of docs on python out there. Partly a function of it being an "older" language than rebol, right? Put rebol documentation has come a *llloooonnnngggg* way since the old days. But .... check this out: Python 2.1.1 (#1, Aug 13 2001, 19:37:40) [GCC 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-96)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> help split
File "<stdin>", line 1 help split ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>>> type? 2
File "<stdin>", line 1 type? 2 ^ SyntaxError: invalid syntax !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REBOL/Core 2.5.0.4.2 Copyright 1997-2001 REBOL Technologies REBOL is a Trademark of REBOL Technologies All rights reserved.
>> help parse
USAGE: PARSE input rules /all /case DESCRIPTION: Parses a series according to rules. PARSE is a native value. ARGUMENTS: input -- Input series to parse (Type: series) rules -- Rules to parse by (Type: block string none) REFINEMENTS: /all -- Parses all chars including spaces. /case -- Uses case-sensitive comparison.
>> type? 2
== integer!
>>
So who's butt is getting kicked here? :-) ((we're talking about students starting out here...) (but I do production with rebol also)) -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [3/21] from: al:bri:xtra at: 26-Sep-2002 16:12


Jason wrote:
> That is where Python's IDE is great. You can look stuff up many ways, and
even get syntax hints on the fly. With conscienscious Docstrings and a 'smart' shell, Rebol could too. There's lots of good IDE ideas around. I don't think it's possible to get syntax hints for Rebol, unless one tries to execute the code. A Rebol IDE could show that a word refers to a function that takes X arguments of Y type/s. That's a useful hint, but that fails if the script (or a related script) replaces the value for that word when executed! :) It will also fail when looking at a word used in a dialect. For example, in my Wiki script, I use 'form, with two different meanings. One is Rebol's usual 'form, the other is my ML dialect 'form that means create a HTML form with the following block! value. Similarly with 'head as well, one is Rebol's usual 'head, the other 'head means create a head section in HTML from the following block. Looking at a small section of my Wiki script, one could be easily confused! It's not until one sees the entire context that it makes sense. This seems to me to be a force that encourages me to keep scripts short and to have powerful words. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [4/21] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 26-Sep-2002 11:28


Hi Jason, On Thursday, September 26, 2002, 1:27:59 AM, you wrote: JC> My main concern about Dialects is that the new extra vocabulary/syntax to learn JC> and lack of indication. Great for the original deevloper, but alreadyknwo it JC> inside out. But gets harder the further you go from that even though the code JC> looks cleaner and is focused on the applcaition domain closely. Mmm... I think, I should add an 'EXPLAIN keyword to the new, slowly upcoming, layout-pdf that explains what a piece of the layout means. What do you think? Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r

 [5/21] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 26-Sep-2002 1:53


Andrew wrote:
> I don't think it's possible to get syntax hints for Rebol, unless one tries > to execute the code. A Rebol IDE could show that a word refers to a function > that takes X arguments of Y type/s. That's a useful hint, but that fails if > the script (or a related script) replaces the value for that word when > executed! :) It will also fail when looking at a word used in a dialect.
ok.. RIDE ideas I donlt quite undetand why not - what does 'help do? REBOL interpreter is running so it knows as soon as it sees a white space that a word has been entered. It can do several things right then: - lookup the word indicate to the use, perhaps highlight the word in special color. [RIDE user prefs can redefine all this] test if it's a - core word - word defined in this session show so - word defined by import show so When a word is redefined that is useful to know too, even if the RIDE can't tell you at that moment what it is exactly. Just as it knwos about white spaces it knows about words ending in ":" I find at the shell when testing, I face confusion often if a word has a value, for example is holdigg on to 'old' values. For exactly the same reasons one needs to invoke the someword: copy [] idiom inside functions. When one loads an external script in the shell with 'do there are a load of fucntions defined there. The first helpful a new RIDE could do is tell you what functions are named. source help reveals a word 'dump-obj source 'dump-obj reveals 3 functions 'clip-str and 'form-val, 'form-pad Perphaps for system words it is not so relevant. But for externasl user scripts I think it woudl be very helpful. Once can al;ways lok ath source, but the issue is what kinds of dynamic helps are good. importinga script adn immediately getting a remionded of teh fucntion name swuodl be very useful. Proabbly in a parallel window so one does not break the flow of the actual session. I don't knwo if what i sugest is very eays or terribly hard.
> For example, in my Wiki script, I use 'form, with two different meanings. > One is Rebol's usual 'form, the other is my ML dialect 'form that means > create a HTML form with the following block! value. Similarly with 'head as > well, one is Rebol's usual 'head, the other 'head means create a head > section in HTML from the following block.
so would'nt that be good to know ?
> Looking at a small section of my Wiki script, one could be easily confused! > It's not until one sees the entire context that it makes sense. This seems > to me to be a force that encourages me to keep scripts short and to have > powerful words.
Yes the art of REBOL must be to keep it short with well crafted words. Dialects presumably can help do that. But there must be a better way to indicate when one is stepping in or out of a dialect? ./Jason

 [6/21] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 26-Sep-2002 1:12


Hi Tim
> Despite the comments about documentation I think that > rebol's help function is very accomodating for a new > programming student. > (and BTW I am also teaching python in a similar fashion) > just try typing "help split" at the python prompt and see what > you get.
Yes that was precisely the initial point I made to Python Edu-Sig. They tried to show me sophisticated Python help is. And of course it is. My point was how direct and freindly rebol's help is, largely becuae it bundles a search function. I'd like to hear more about your Rebol teaching experiences... What age? What kind of stuff you do? ..students reactions. Do they use their programs together? What probelms do they have? Is this their first prgarmmnig experience? What is easy? What is hard? What sort of materials you'd like to see to help your efforts?
> But seriously, rebol is a very good first programming language. > The absense of systems calls in rebol/core is a good thing. > I don't have to have the student's parents sign one of those > "If you broke it with your program it ain't our fault" kind > of contract/disclaimers, as we are doing with python, perl and > C.
Thanks. A good point. ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yep I know the feeling. thanks ./Jason

 [7/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 26-Sep-2002 7:49


Hello Jason: * Jason Cunliffe <[jason--cunliffe--verizon--net]> [020926 03:59]:
> Hi Tim > > Despite the comments about documentation I think that
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> I'd like to hear more about your Rebol teaching experiences... > What age?
Eighth grade through senior.
> What kind of stuff you do?
Intro basics, but finishes with ftp email and cgi
> ..students reactions.
Completion is a problem...
> Do they use their programs together?
No. Not so far
> What probelms do they have?
Did I say that this is an online class? Anyway, that's really the main obstacle, how to proctor a motivate without physical presense.
> Is this their first prgarmmnig experience?
It is designed as a first programming class, but some students have had html, a little C++
> What is easy?
Teaching the class .... no commuting :-)
> What is hard?
Motivating them.
> What sort of materials you'd like to see to help your efforts?
I've considered a couple of things: 1)A tutor program like TCL uses. 2)Some simple chat bot routines But they are simple add-ons. The main issues really aren't specific to rebol. They are a factor of what is (to us here) a new medium.
> > But seriously, rebol is a very good first programming language. > > The absense of systems calls in rebol/core is a good thing.
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> > C. > Thanks. A good point.
And to tell the truth, certain sysops and ISPs like that feature too....
> ^ > > SyntaxError: invalid syntax
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [8/21] from: al:bri:xtra at: 27-Sep-2002 8:23


Jason wrote:
> Andrew wrote: > > I don't think it's possible to get syntax hints for Rebol, unless one
tries
> > to execute the code. A Rebol IDE could show that a word refers to a
function
> > that takes X arguments of Y type/s. That's a useful hint, but that fails
if
> > the script (or a related script) replaces the value for that word when > > executed! :) It will also fail when looking at a word used in a dialect. > I don't quite understand why not - what does 'help do?
Basically the same as what I've indicated as above. I was under the impression you wanted a RIDE to do more than 'help does.
> test if it's a > - core word
Uhm, what are those? I "redefine" and add quite a few of them on startup in my %user.r file.
> - word defined in this session show so
set to-word input 123 What word is set to the vale of 123? I wouldn't know until the script is executed. RIDE would have to understand the script at near AI levels! It would be easier if the script was evaluated, but what if the script was designed for interaction with the user or interacting with another machine? If the word's value was loaded earlier, then 'help is certainly very effective.
> - word defined by import show so
I'm unsure what you mean here.
> But there must be a better way to indicate when one is stepping in or out
of a dialect? I think we're all still learning about dialects. Best practices will only come out when we keep designing and using dialects and see what works and what doesn't. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [9/21] from: al:bri:xtra at: 27-Sep-2002 8:37


Gabriele wrote:
> Mmm... I think, I should add an 'EXPLAIN keyword to the new, slowly
upcoming, layout-pdf that explains what a piece of the layout means. What do you think? I wouldn't. Instead why not a function called 'help-layout-pdf ? That way it's like Rebol's 'help function. Also, it might be better to call the dialect 'PDF instead, so making the help function's name: 'help-PDF. Then it could be used something like: help-PDF square ; or some other PDF dialect keyword. Unfortunately, this approach doesn't help much with those dialects that don't have keywords. For example, my ML, CSS, Fixed, eText & Build-Tag dialects. :( Instead, there'll just have to be loads of examples to learn from. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [10/21] from: laurent::giroud::libertysurf::fr at: 26-Sep-2002 23:21

Re: defining words ==> was:{Re: Teaching Rebol => was:{Re: Re: Parsing c


Thursday, September 26, 2002, 10:23:24 PM, Andrew Martin wrote :
>> test if it's a >> - core word > Uhm, what are those? I "redefine" and add quite a few of them on startup in > my %user.r file. >> - word defined in this session show so > set to-word input 123
Do you really have such line in your %user.r file ? This has nothing to do with the previous subject but I am very interested in knowing how this is useful to you, could you explain it a bit ? Thanks, Laurent -- Laurent Giroud [laurent--giroud--libertysurf--fr]

 [11/21] from: carl:cybercraft at: 27-Sep-2002 10:38

Re: Teaching Rebol => was:{Re: Re: Parsing comment}


On 27-Sep-02, Tim Johnson wrote:
> * Jason Cunliffe <[jason--cunliffe--verizon--net]> [020926 03:59]: >> I'd like to hear more about your Rebol teaching experiences... >> What age? > Eighth grade through senior.
Those are ages? (; (We used to have primers, standards and forms here in NZ, but now the kids talk of being in "Room 6" and so on when you ask the class they're in. Totally meaningless:)
>> What probelms do they have? > Did I say that this is an online class? Anyway, that's > really the main obstacle, how to proctor a motivate > without physical presense.
Is it just Core they use, or View too? Eye-candy could help, as does having a personal reason to use the language. In an interview I found by following one of Jason's links a student mentioned having used Python to put up a website. Building a plain, vanilla website is nothing to kids these days, but building a dynamic one might be another matter, and Core's all you need for it. Maybe that's where a REBOL class should start? It'd give quick and visual feedback and an obvious use for what they're doing, compared to just outputting text to the console or a file or whatever. Though you have the problem of having to teach HTML as well... -- Carl Read

 [12/21] from: al:bri:xtra at: 27-Sep-2002 10:59

Re: defining words ==> was:{Re: Teaching Rebol => was:{Re: Re: Parsing c


Laurent wrote:
> This has nothing to do with the previous subject but I am very interested
in knowing how this is useful to you, could you explain it a bit ? Perhaps a more useful example:
>> do ask "Please enter an example script: "
Please enter an example script: set 'Foo "Hello!" print Foo Hello!
>> foo
== "Hello!" Which is a primitive Rebol console written in Rebol. Here's another more useful example, for a database using Rebol block! values to hold name values pairs.
>> X: [ ; Only one record.
[ Name "Andrew" [ Email [Al--Bri--NoSpam--xtra--co--nz] [ ] == [ Name "Andrew" Email [Al--Bri--NoSpam--xtra--co--nz] ]
>> foreach [Name Value] X [set Name Value]
== [Al--Bri--NoSpam--xtra--co--nz]
>> Name
== "Andrew"
>> Email
== [Al--Bri--NoSpam--xtra--co--nz] Usually the 'foreach would be 'do-ne inside a object! which is the context for all words stored in the database. That object is the prototype for the stored records. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [13/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 26-Sep-2002 17:11

Re: Teaching Rebol => was:{Re: Re: Parsing comment}


* Carl Read <[carl--cybercraft--co--nz]> [020926 15:08]:
> On 27-Sep-02, Tim Johnson wrote: > Is it just Core they use, or View too? Eye-candy could help, as does
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> to the console or a file or whatever. Though you have the problem of > having to teach HTML as well...
Carl, I did a lot of thinking about the eye candy. I decided to to train them in 'view' but to keep the rebol command-line mode only. Part of it is that I'm not all that interested in 'view .... my partner and I respectively designed python and perl course as a second semester using the respective langauge tk interfaces (tkinter and tkperl). I felt (and was supported by the teachers of record) and there was enough eye candy around and that it was better to start them out in a way that would get them started in focusing on the small details that really are what makes programming work. What I would like to do is develop a scheme where even the starting students could render in CGI as well as the command line.... I think understanding how to use the command line is more important than visual programming. Once one knows how to best utilize the command line, the visual stuff become easier to hack and troubleshoot. I think a personal reason is a more "honest" hook. I just tell them about my son-in-law who makes over a hundred grand a year for working 20 hours average a week. Who's treated like a god by his contractees, who wouldn't give Eminem, Steven Seagal or Michael Jordan a second look. That gets their attention... ;-) And I will reiterate - teaching online needs to overcome the lack of direct personal contact that can reinforce initiative. That is the largest issue in my mind. -tim-
> -- > Carl Read > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to > [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [14/21] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 27-Sep-2002 15:16


Hi Andrew, On Thursday, September 26, 2002, 10:37:57 PM, you wrote: AM> I wouldn't. Instead why not a function called 'help-layout-pdf ? That way AM> it's like Rebol's 'help function. Also, it might be better to call the The advantage of an 'EXPLAIN keyword is that you can take a piece of code written by someone else, put 'EXPLAIN inside it and see what it is doing. I.e. something like: layout-pdf [ [ explain line 10 10 20 20 ] ] which should print: Draws a line between the points (10, 10) and (20, 20) Anyway, that's just a wild idea, maybe it isn't useful at all. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer Amigan -- AGI L'Aquila -- REB: http://web.tiscali.it/rebol/index.r

 [15/21] from: carl:cybercraft at: 28-Sep-2002 9:40


On 27-Sep-02, Tim Johnson wrote:
> Carl, I did a lot of thinking about the eye candy. I decided to to > train them in 'view' but to keep the rebol command-line mode only.
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> start them out in a way that would get them started in focusing on > the small details that really are what makes programming work.
My feeling is is that visual feedback is the quickest way to notice if something's right or wrong. It's why we convert a mass of numbers into a graph. The graph and the numbers are the same thing, it's just that we need to see the graph before we can understand the numbers.
> What I would like to do is develop a scheme where even the starting > students could render in CGI as well as the command line....
That would be a good approach. Wouldn't a local server on the students' machine be one way of doing this? It could be one written in REBOL so you'd have control of what it could and couldn't do. (Until the kids hacked it;)
> I think understanding how to use the command line is more important > than visual programming. Once one knows how to best utilize the > command line, the visual stuff become easier to hack and > troubleshoot.
Of course, but they each pull the other up...
>> view layout [b: button "A button"] >> probe first b
[self type offset size span pane text color image effect data edge font para feel saved-area rate show? options parent-face old-offset old-size line-list changes face-flags action state style alt-action facets related words colors texts file var keycode reset styles init multi blinker pane-size dirty? help user-data flags effects] == [self type offset size span pane text color image effect data edge font para feel saved-area rate show? options parent-face old-...
>> probe b/text
A button == "A button"
>> probe b/color
44.80.132 == 44.80.132
>> probe b/colors
none == none
>> probe b/feel
make object! [ redraw: func [face act pos /local state][ face/edge/effect: pick [ibevel bevel] face/state if face/texts [face/text: face/texts/1] all [face/state face/texts face/text: any [face/texts/2 face/texts/1]] state: either not face/state [face/blinker] [true] if face/colors [face/color: pick face/colors not state] if face/effects [face/effect: pick face/effects not state] ] detect: none over: func [face action event][ if all [face/font face/font/colors] [ face/font/color: pick face/font/colors not action show face face/font/color: first face/font/colors ] ] engage: func [face action event][ switch action [ time [if not face/state [face/blinker: not face/blinker]] down [face/state: on] alt-down [face/state: on] up [if face/state [do-face face none] face/state: off] alt-up [if face/state [do-face-alt face none] face/state: off] over [face/state: on] away [face/state: off] ] cue face action show face ] cue: none blink: none ]
> I think a personal reason is a more "honest" hook. I just tell them > about my son-in-law who makes over a hundred grand a year for > working 20 hours average a week. Who's treated like a god by his > contractees, who wouldn't give Eminem, Steven Seagal or Michael > Jordan a second look. That gets their attention... ;-)
I can see that working with older students who're having to start thinking about future employment, but I can't see it being much motivation for kids under 14 or so.
> And I will reiterate - teaching online needs to overcome the lack of > direct personal contact that can reinforce initiative. That > is the largest issue in my mind.
I'd think it'd need tutors online 24/7 to be really effective, plus instant messaging and the ability to share desktops. Tutors online 24/7 is the hard part there I would think. -- Carl Read

 [16/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 28-Sep-2002 9:35


Hi Carl; * Carl Read <[carl--cybercraft--co--nz]> [020927 14:07]:
> My feeling is is that visual feedback is the quickest way to notice if > something's right or wrong. It's why we convert a mass of numbers > into a graph. The graph and the numbers are the same thing, it's > just that we need to see the graph before we can understand the > numbers.
We have thus far a lot of eye candy in the course content. I think it would be neat to have some view scripts that could be easily modified by a beginning student to give them some feedback...
> > What I would like to do is develop a scheme where even the starting > > students could render in CGI as well as the command line.... > > That would be a good approach. Wouldn't a local server on the > students' machine be one way of doing this? It could be one written > in REBOL so you'd have control of what it could and couldn't do.
The problem is infrastructure and the attitude of systems adminstrators, trying to solve that lllloooonnnngggg story!
> (Until the kids hacked it;)
<sigh>I only wish they could ...</sigh>
> > about my son-in-law who makes over a hundred grand a year for > > working 20 hours average a week. Who's treated like a god by his
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> thinking about future employment, but I can't see it being much > motivation for kids under 14 or so.
I beg to differ, even eight graders get that one, we need good looking programmers and techies of both genders coming in to talk to kids here. Girls especially are infected with this weird idea that being into computers is very unsexy....
> I'd think it'd need tutors online 24/7 to be really effective, plus > instant messaging and the ability to share desktops. Tutors online > 24/7 is the hard part there I would think.
For those of you reading this, Carl took part in a mailing list that was set up for this class a year ago. It was terribly dead, we are trying a chat room now, but it will be staffed by the teacher of record and myself only one hour a week <sigh> and paranoid school sysops aren't letting anyone else in (so far). Progress, not perfection.... -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [17/21] from: carl:cybercraft at: 29-Sep-2002 9:35


On 29-Sep-02, Tim Johnson wrote:
>> > What I would like to do is develop a scheme where even the >> > starting students could render in CGI as well as the command
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> The problem is infrastructure and the attitude of systems > adminstrators, trying to solve that lllloooonnnngggg story!
Well, I was thinking of it being just another script the kids would run on the computers they were using so they could test any CGI they did themselves by looking at it with a browser. I wrote such a script so I can test the CGI I do locally before sticking it on a real server. I just have two REBOL consoles open, one for the server and one for the script I'm working on.
>> (Until the kids hacked it;) > <sigh>I only wish they could ...</sigh>
(:
>>> about my son-in-law who makes over a hundred grand a year for >>> working 20 hours average a week. Who's treated like a god by his
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>> motivation for kids under 14 or so. > I beg to differ, even eight graders get that one,
And I still don't know how old an eight (eighth?) grader would be. This is one area where numbers win out over words in an international forum Tim. (:
> we need good > looking programmers and techies of both genders coming in to > talk to kids here. Girls especially are infected with this > weird idea that being into computers is very unsexy....
Girls ain't dumb. (; If you were trying to attract kids to writing as a profession, would you bring in writers of fiction or writers of car manuals or adverts as examples? In other words, would you chose a writer of accounting software over a games programmer to inspire the kids?
>> I'd think it'd need tutors online 24/7 to be really effective, plus >> instant messaging and the ability to share desktops. Tutors online >> 24/7 is the hard part there I would think. > > For those of you reading this, Carl took part in a mailing list > that was set up for this class a year ago. It was terribly dead,
Yes - it didn't really get started. It would really need at least two enthusastic posters amongst the students to start the ball rolling I think, but that didn't happen.
> we are trying a chat room now, but it will be staffed by the > teacher of record and myself only one hour a week <sigh> and > paranoid school sysops aren't letting anyone else in (so far).
I'm wondering if the reason you only got an Australian and a New Zealander as the REBOL "mentors" had anything to do with the less litigious nature of Downunder culture? I can imagine those in the US and probably elsewhere not considering it worth the risk to get involved. Sad. Do kids think lawyers are sexy by any chance? -- Carl Read

 [18/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 28-Sep-2002 15:04


* Carl Read <[carl--cybercraft--co--nz]> [020928 13:52]:
> Well, I was thinking of it being just another script the kids would > run on the computers they were using so they could test any CGI they > did themselves by looking at it with a browser. I wrote such a > script so I can test the CGI I do locally before sticking it on a > "real" server. I just have two REBOL consoles open, one for the > server and one for the script I'm working on.
Ahh... talking about a simple socket server..
> > I beg to differ, even eight graders get that one, > > And I still don't know how old an eight (eighth?) grader would be. > This is one area where numbers win out over words in an international > forum Tim. (:
Sorry: Eighth grade is middle school - the eight of 12 grades and would precede freshmen high school. 13 - 14 years of age or so
> Girls ain't dumb. (; >
You're preaching to the converted ... Grace Hopper (Admiral Grace Hopper at that) developed COBOL, and my niece Jessica interned at RT two years ago.... Besides I married one....
> If you were trying to attract kids to writing as a profession, would > you bring in writers of fiction or writers of car manuals or adverts > as examples? In other words, would you chose a writer of accounting > software over a games programmer to inspire the kids?
I'd take what I could get in this limited area .... and I show them some of my CGI sites built with rebol. We are inviting them to download 'view to play with, and maybe there's some rebol/view scripts online for them to run?
> > For those of you reading this, Carl took part in a mailing list > > that was set up for this class a year ago. It was terribly dead, > > Yes - it didn't really get started. It would really need at least two > enthusastic posters amongst the students to start the ball rolling I > think, but that didn't happen.
Yeah, couldn't even get a good argument going....
> > we are trying a chat room now, but it will be staffed by the > > teacher of record and myself only one hour a week <sigh> and
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> and probably elsewhere not considering it worth the risk to get > involved. Sad. Do kids think lawyers are sexy by any chance?
<sigh>We are going beyond the school district here... I'm disheartened to report that the Human Services profession here is very anti- technology and has turned down many opportunities for tekkies to help them. Example: We have a very high suicide rate among teen-agers here, and when several of us local programmers offered to build software to help crisis line staffers, we got no takers ... just one sad example </sigh> -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [19/21] from: al:bri:xtra at: 29-Sep-2002 11:50


Tim wrote:
> <sigh>We are going beyond the school district here... I'm disheartened > to report that the Human Services profession here is very anti-
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> sad example > </sigh>
For the local high school where I work in the school term (Y9 - Y13, 13 - 18 year pupils), I'll be installing a "Worry Web Site", which will be my Rebol/Wiki (once I've got it's subdirectories working consistently well). I got the idea from a NZ teenagers book, where the computer literate maths teacher set up a Wiki-like software to assist students by providing a space for anonymous cries for help, with a place for other students and counsellors to respond. I'm lucky to have computer literate principal who can see clear virtues for teachers and students, as well as money making opportunities! One really has to show schools how new software will save them money (or even make them money!) and enable them to meet the legal obligations, and assist teachers, parents, students. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://valley.150m.com/

 [20/21] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 28-Sep-2002 16:31


> Tim wrote: > > <sigh>We are going beyond the school district here... I'm disheartened
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> > sad example > > </sigh>
* Andrew Martin <[Al--Bri--xtra--co--nz]> wrote
> For the local high school where I work in the school term (Y9 - Y13, 13 - 18 > year pupils), I'll be installing a "Worry Web Site", which will be my
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> even make them money!) and enable them to meet the legal obligations, and > assist teachers, parents, students.
Here it is more than that I think. Money is only part of the issue. Another part is a sort of mindset that thinks of information technology in very narrow boundaries. Those conceptual boundaries must expand and the administrators have to feel comfortable about the legal and control issues. But Andrew's concept is similar to something that I (along with Elan Goldman) attempted to provide for a "Services to Young and Pregnant Women" department in a local non-profit. The project was reject with prejudice, the department failed to get funding and it was closed. With a well-received technological aid similar in part to what Andrew is discussing, the department may have attracted funding. A similar system I put together here attracted $125,000 in grant monies. -- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com http://www.johnsons-web.com

 [21/21] from: carl:cybercraft at: 29-Sep-2002 13:53


On 29-Sep-02, Tim Johnson wrote:
>> Well, I was thinking of it being just another script the kids would >> run on the computers they were using so they could test any CGI
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
>> server and one for the script I'm working on. > Ahh... talking about a simple socket server..
I guess - I'm no expert on servers or the Net. But I'd see it as a safe place for kids to develope CGI scripts. Then, if they wanted them put on the Web, that could be your job - to vet the scripts and do the uploading.
>> Girls ain't dumb. (; >> > You're preaching to the converted ... Grace Hopper (Admiral Grace > Hopper > at that) developed COBOL, and my niece Jessica interned at RT two > years ago.... Besides I married one....
And none have married me. As I said... (;
>> If you were trying to attract kids to writing as a profession, >> would you bring in writers of fiction or writers of car manuals or
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> download 'view to play with, and maybe there's some rebol/view > scripts online for them to run?
Try rebsearch to search what's available on the Reb... do http://proton.cl-ki.uni-osnabrueck.de/REBOL/rebsearch.r or you can get to it from the FX5 site via the Desktop. (Though I'm getting a timeout with it at the moment - hopefully it's still there...) Not sure which scripts to suggest. (No bookmarks with the Desktop, so they don't get bookmarked...) I just launch the Desktop every so often and have a look at what's in the Sites' folder - and check out any sites I don't think I've seen before. Often there's not much in a site, (some seem just to be place-keepers), but many have quite a lot of scripts in. Run them and if you like them, look at the scripts. I'm terrible at remembering the names of sites, so to be fair I won't mention the one or two I know have good stuff in. (; Just go exploring... On second thoughts, let's throw this open to the rest on the list. Which are the Rebsites you'd recomend people?
> We are going beyond the school district here... I'm > disheartened > to report that the Human Services profession here is very > anti-technology
Lots are anti-technology. Having to deal with technology is like having to be a mechanic or electrician - ideally you pay someone else to do that kind of stuff. But computer-literacy to my mind means being able use /and/ write programs, same as you expect the literate to be able to both read and write. The trouble is, something badly written doesn't crash, so lots of badly written prose gets put out without it causing too much harm. A badly written program becomes very obvious to everyone very soon though, and probably to the programmer before anyone else sees it. So technology's a very harsh judge, hence people's dislike of it. -- Carl Read

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