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ANN: 3D game engine

 [1/13] from: roland:hadinger:arcor at: 11-May-2004 11:06


http://www.errru.net/rebol/fun/rdm.r Right now, this is just a nonviolent and incomplete demo, which needs the latest view beta. Some features: - everything 100% REBOL - no texturing (no OpenGL), but changing the wall drawing code is easy. - 3 DOF with fast hidden line removal (front to back occlusion test) - adaptive time step physics - can be rewritten for 4 DOF (no up/down or tilting rotations) - can be rewritten for rooms with arbitrary, but convex 2D outlines - can be rewritten for graph-like room topology (right now it's a grid) - can be rewritten for OpenGL rendering - no room-over-room capability It will still take a lot of time to make a fun game out of this :/ It would be interesting to see if REBOL can do real-time streaming of game state over networks. PS: REBOL/view rendering speed isn't so slow, is it? -- R.

 [2/13] from: reblist:codeconscious at: 11-May-2004 20:32


Impressive :-)
> PS: REBOL/view rendering speed isn't so slow, is it?
On my 300mhz with 16mb graphics card - it works quite well :-) Regards, Brett

 [3/13] from: carl::cybercraft::co::nz at: 11-May-2004 23:08


>=== Original Message > >http://www.errru.net/rebol/fun/rdm.r
<<quoted lines omitted: 14>>
>streaming of game state over networks. >PS: REBOL/view rendering speed isn't so slow, is it?
No - not too slow in this case! :-) I tried changing viewport-size to 800x400, but it only made the window bigger... All in all, it looks very promising. -- Carl Read

 [4/13] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 11-May-2004 14:14


Very nice! But I must admit that Rebol/View engine rendering is still slow(and it is not due to your coding style). I never consider such performance as 'fast' for ~1Ghz machines. There are lots of C/C++ SW renderers on the web doing really fast 2d/3d gfx(and I mean not only plain vectors) so why Rebol is so slow??. Hope View get some improvements in this area soon so we can make some nice 3D games for upcoming Rebol/Plug-in ;-) anyway, keep up the cool work! Cyphre PS: I did few simmilar experiments with raycasting and simple flat polygon 3D engine too but still have little time to continue :-/ you can check http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/raycasting.html if you have IE or http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/raycasting.r also here you can see some screenshots from my (sometimes realtime, sometimes not - depends on number of polys ;) ) experiments with pure Rebol 3D stuff http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/3d-lite.html

 [5/13] from: roland:hadinger:arcor at: 11-May-2004 14:59


On Tuesday 11 May 2004 13:08, Carl Read wrote:
> I tried changing viewport-size to 800x400, but it only made the window > bigger...
Ah yes, I overlooked that. f-canvas/effect must be given as [fit draw[]] instead of just [draw []], otherwise only part of the effect gets drawn in the presence of a background image. Strange...
> All in all, it looks very promising.
Thanks, I'll try to publish a plugin version once multiplayer is (or is not) working. -- R.

 [6/13] from: roland:hadinger:arcor at: 11-May-2004 15:55


On Tuesday 11 May 2004 14:14, Cyphre wrote:
> Very nice!
Thanks :)
> But I must admit that Rebol/View engine rendering is still slow(and it is > not due to your coding style). I never consider such performance as 'fast' > for ~1Ghz machines. There are lots of C/C++ SW renderers on the web doing > really fast 2d/3d gfx(and I mean not only plain vectors) so why Rebol is so > slow??. Hope View get some improvements in this area soon so we can make > some nice 3D games for upcoming Rebol/Plug-in ;-)
You are right - speed of rendering could be better (and as that would benefit almost any kind of rebol application, fast is never fast enough). I think part of the problem is that every face is first composited in memory, then converted and passed to the OS by not thoroughly optimized code (which hasn't been compiled for newer processor generations like P3/P4 and does not use MMX/SSE). And I guess some of the algorithms are not suited well in terms of raw performance (I may be wrong, but it looks like filled polygons are still outlines which are flood-filled instead of being rendered by a scanline rasterizer?). Change a few things here and there and performance flies. But I hope a 20 frames per second demo is fast enough to show around :) -- R.

 [7/13] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 11-May-2004 9:06


Hi Roland, Wow! That's great stuff! I'm always amazed at what people like you, Cyphre, Oldes, and others are able to coax out of the current REBOL interpreter. Nice work. -- Gregg

 [8/13] from: moliad:aei:ca at: 11-May-2004 22:40


> PS: REBOL/view rendering speed isn't so slow, is it?
depends... when setting view port to 1200x1000 game is at about 3-4 fr/sec... (no scientific calculations... just a rough visual estimate) considering a c compiled source might run at around 2000-4000 fr a second for a similar display (with your typical one/two-year old gfx card) rebol is not very fast... it would benefit greatly by using OpenGL internally for most of its raster drawing, simply because all modern gfx cards support it in hardware. you know OpenGL isn't just a 3d engine... I know I'm always complaining... that's my lot, I just like to keep myself realistic less than optimistic. There are things that ARE and things that could be... fast view is still of the later... BUT YOUR DEMO KICKS ASS !!! it definitely shows that rebol's DATA processing is extremely efficient if used properly :-) -MAx

 [9/13] from: moliad:aei:ca at: 11-May-2004 22:43


Hi Roland, would you consider posting it to rebol.org... I'd really like this app to be part of the rebol collective. its really worth it !!!! Rebol.org is missing games... and demos -MAx

 [10/13] from: rebol-list2:seznam:cz at: 15-May-2004 15:13


Hello Roland, Tuesday, May 11, 2004, 11:06:00 AM, you wrote: RH> http://www.errru.net/rebol/fun/rdm.r it's really nice:) Best regards, rebOldes -----------------[ http://oldes.multimedia.cz/ ]

 [11/13] from: roland:hadinger:arcor at: 11-May-2004 14:59


On Tuesday 11 May 2004 13:08, Carl Read wrote:
> I tried changing viewport-size to 800x400, but it only made the window > bigger...
Ah yes, I overlooked that. f-canvas/effect must be given as [fit draw[]] instead of just [draw []], otherwise only part of the effect gets drawn in the presence of a background image. Strange...
> All in all, it looks very promising.
Thanks, I'll try to publish a plugin version once multiplayer is (or is not) working. -- R.

 [12/13] from: roland:hadinger:arcor at: 11-May-2004 15:55


On Tuesday 11 May 2004 14:14, Cyphre wrote:
> Very nice!
Thanks :)
> But I must admit that Rebol/View engine rendering is still slow(and it is > not due to your coding style). I never consider such performance as 'fast' > for ~1Ghz machines. There are lots of C/C++ SW renderers on the web doing > really fast 2d/3d gfx(and I mean not only plain vectors) so why Rebol is so > slow??. Hope View get some improvements in this area soon so we can make > some nice 3D games for upcoming Rebol/Plug-in ;-)
You are right - speed of rendering could be better (and as that would benefit almost any kind of rebol application, fast is never fast enough). I think part of the problem is that every face is first composited in memory, then converted and passed to the OS by not thoroughly optimized code (which hasn't been compiled for newer processor generations like P3/P4 and does not use MMX/SSE). And I guess some of the algorithms are not suited well in terms of raw performance (I may be wrong, but it looks like filled polygons are still outlines which are flood-filled instead of being rendered by a scanline rasterizer?). Change a few things here and there and performance flies. But I hope a 20 frames per second demo is fast enough to show around :) -- R.

 [13/13] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 11-May-2004 14:14


Very nice! But I must admit that Rebol/View engine rendering is still slow(and it is not due to your coding style). I never consider such performance as 'fast' for ~1Ghz machines. There are lots of C/C++ SW renderers on the web doing really fast 2d/3d gfx(and I mean not only plain vectors) so why Rebol is so slow??. Hope View get some improvements in this area soon so we can make some nice 3D games for upcoming Rebol/Plug-in ;-) anyway, keep up the cool work! Cyphre PS: I did few simmilar experiments with raycasting and simple flat polygon 3D engine too but still have little time to continue :-/ you can check http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/raycasting.html if you have IE or http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/raycasting.r also here you can see some screenshots from my (sometimes realtime, sometimes not - depends on number of polys ;) ) experiments with pure Rebol 3D stuff http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/3d-lite.html

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