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Licensing, components

 [1/8] from: atruter:hih:au at: 19-Sep-2002 13:33


Just caught up on 5 days of mail, so I'll comment on a few posts at once ;)
> The only reason people will use REBOL these days is because they have
fallen in love with the language and love to explore. RAD. The ability to develop a [relatively] complex GUI-based application without being forced to use a database component from company B, an imaging module from company C, etc is a godsend. Everything can be done in REBOL and it can be done quickly. UI. The user-interface can be made to look exactly the way you choose. In my case, it allows me to deploy apps across Win95, 98, ME, 2000 and XP without worrying about the subtle API and UI changes. Consistency. Even on just one platform, windoze, most software has at least a "Win95, 98, ME" and a "Win2000/XP" install / usage section in the manual. Because REBOL apps use REBOL building blocks as opposed to API building blocks, this is not an issue for REBOL apps. My documentation can use the one set of screen shots and instructions to cover all flavours of windoze.
> I believe that if more people knew of real-world ENCAP uses, they would
be more willing to trust and buy it without trial. I have no idea who uses it, how well it works, what's really involved and cannot even read the docs on it. I can find no examples 'Made with Encap'. Could not be simpler to use. Just run the encap program, enter the source script name (eg. test.r), the target name (eg. test.exe) and hey presto you have a 550K standalone executable. This executable is in fact the REBOL interpreter with your script(s) tacked on the end. As for "made with encap", here we get interesting. In the niche industry I am targeting the UI is *the* selling point of my app and I do *not* want my VB and C based competitors to know "how it was done and how so quick". Encap, for me, is not only the means by which the source code is protected but also the means by which the "production process" is protected. This *commercial* consideration may conflict with my *hobbyist* instincts to tell the world about REBOL, but I figure that spending time trying to sell REBOL-based applications is more beneficial to RT (and me) than talking to end-users about a particular deployment technology. Folks are interested in what your application can do, not what it is written in. Competitors *are* interested in what it is written in as they can then market against it (eg. "that REBOL app over there is really just an interpreted script, while our app is a highly optimised C executable", etc). Sales prospects are rather taken with the concept of a single, optimised 550K executable and no supporting DLL's.
> ftpgadget is the only application that I am aware of that is encapped.
There are others, like mine, that are sold via channels other than the internet. I have just come back from a 5-day trade fair where my encap'ed demo was seen by hundreds of sales prospects, many of whom do not even have an email address let alone buy software over the internet.
> I'd recommend it for software projects of all sizes. Last time I
checked, it was $499 plus 10% commission on all sales of products where Encap was used (or something like that). Note that this fee is a yearly fee and is applied against the 10% owed. ie. if I sell $8,000 worth of software in a year then I owe RT $800 less $499. While I don't suggest the royalty scheme is the best way to gain large developer support, it does have the advantage of a low entry cost ($499) and like any franchise (eg. Macdonald's) if the franchise does well then RT does well and the developer still retains 90%.
> What improvements/changes do you recommend for Encap?
Ability to change icons (it comes embedded with the standard "R" icons at 16x16, 32x32 and 48x48) and "Version" text. While other tools can be used to [interactively] modify the encapped executable, it would be better if encap excepted scripted parameters to do this (ie. a simple and complete build process). Sample install / uninstall scripts that handle pathing, icons, registry entries, etc. While I don't expect the likes of "Install Shield", I do expect an installer that prompts for an installation directory and places an icon on the user's desktop. -Does Encap work across platforms? Each platform requires it's own version of encap. -How do you control that? Purchase encap for each platform you intend to market for. Note that higher sales will effectively let you obtain encap on other platforms "for free". eg. $10,000 in sales covers the cost of encap for two platforms, even if most sales occurred on only one platform. -Any issues with /View None. -Does Encap work with all versions of REBOL? Encap "contains" the REBOL interpreter. Latest encap includes latest release and beta versions. It is not encap itself that is beta, but the interpreter instance it binds to your script(s). -How big is the minimum executable? 550K on windows. After adding 160K of scripts, this went to 554K. I was suitably impressed! -Can you generate Encapped dynamically under Rebol script control? Yes. Roll your own. -Does Encap have any built-in icon features for GUIs? No. DIY. -Double click starting from icon on Win32 and MacOS? No. DIY. -What control for time limiting, password or license key control of executables? DIY. -What sort of docs, examples do you get? Installation and usage manual of about 4 pages, plus a test / sample script to encap. -Does 10% commission apply to non-profit, non-commercial or educational projects? 10% of nothing is nothing. If you charge something, 10% goes to RT. -How is licensing/commission managed? See above. -Is that 10% of the final product price? REBOL based component only (if structured correctly). -What happens if your product is free? You pay $499 per year for Royalty membership. -If you are a developer for a client with end-user customers, is just one Encap license needed? Yes. Encap is a development licence, not a runtime licence. -Who is responsible for the Commission in that case, and how is it assigned and tracked? The seller of the encap'ed program is responsible. -Have you used it with PayPal closely in any way? No. -Does Encap help promote REBOL or is that left entirely up to the developer? Unless modified, the encapped executable retains the REBOL icons and version text. - What have you built with it? Image Management software for the medical industry. - Client and end-user reactions to the product? They love the UI of the application and don't know [or care] that it was written with REBOL. - Client [and end-user] reactions to the license commission? Not their problem. They pay an RRP that includes all third party licence fees, etc. Again, the 10% royalty fee is the concern of the *seller* only.
> Anything else?
Don't go into business without a good accountant and lawyer, and operate out of a company structure. ;) Regards, Ashley

 [2/8] from: robert:muench:robertmuench at: 19-Sep-2002 13:41


> -----Original Message----- > From: [rebol-bounce--rebol--com] [mailto:[rebol-bounce--rebol--com]]
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> Win95, 98, ME, 2000 and XP without worrying about the subtle > API and UI changes.
Hi, just one question about this: Do you use a Windows compatible GUI layout or do you use the Rebol look? Later you wrote that you don't want to let others know how your app was made. If you use the Rebol look it's clear that this is not a "native" Windows application. Robert

 [3/8] from: ptretter:charter at: 19-Sep-2002 6:56


Ashley, These were good comments and a good read. Thanks for your efforts in giving us this information. Paul Tretter

 [4/8] from: jason::cunliffe::verizon::net at: 19-Sep-2002 2:02


Ashley Thanks. I really appreciate your post. Fascinating and thorough. Good luck with your business...
> RAD. The ability to develop a [relatively] complex GUI-based application > without being forced to use a database component from company B, an imaging > module from company C, etc is a godsend. Everything can be done in REBOL > and it can be done quickly.
Good points on RAD and also the UI cross-platform dsictibution and documentation simplicty. One that that should be very prominent on http://rebol.com
> As for "made with encap", here we get interesting. In the niche industry I > am targeting the UI is *the* selling point of my app and I do *not* want my > VB and C based competitors to know "how it was done and how so quick". > Encap, for me, is not only the means by which the source code is protected > but also the means by which the "production process" is protected.
Yes it is an interesting point. I suspected this.. This was long held truism of much Amiga software, including the revolutionary Video Toaster for some years. People had to keep it secret so clients would not get nervous and/or try to drop reduce the budget. Of course I'd love to hear more here about your application. Can you describe it better in general or Rebol terms without revealing too much to your potential competitors? You mention Medical Imaging.. what quantity of image data are your handling, how big are the files, how fast is it, format?
> This *commercial* consideration may conflict with my *hobbyist* instincts > to tell the world about REBOL, but I figure that spending time trying to > sell REBOL-based applications is more beneficial to RT (and me) than > talking to end-users about a particular deployment technology. Folks are > interested in what your application can do, not what it is written in.
This is very true.
> Competitors *are* interested in what it is written in as they can then > market against it (eg. "that REBOL app over there is really just an > interpreted script, while our app is a highly optimised C executable", > etc). Sales prospects are rather taken with the concept of a single, > "optimised" 550K executable and no supporting DLL's.
I think we all are :-)
> > ftpgadget is the only application that I am aware of that is encapped. > > There are others, like mine, that are sold via channels other than the > internet. I have just come back from a 5-day trade fair where my encap'ed > demo was seen by hundreds of sales prospects, many of whom do not even have > an email address let alone buy software over the internet.
Interesting. What kind of physuical package do you sell? Does this mean your prudct is also not network-oriented either?
> Note that this fee is a yearly fee and is applied against the 10% owed. ie. > if I sell $8,000 worth of software in a year then I owe RT $800 less $499. > While I don't suggest the royalty scheme is the best way to gain large > developer support, it does have the advantage of a low entry cost ($499) > and like any franchise (eg. Macdonald's) if the franchise does well then RT > does well and the developer still retains 90%.
Glad you raised this. The big ongoing debate here is how to stimulate developer needs and growth as well as profitable REBOL sales. Any more thoughts on that?
> > What improvements/changes do you recommend for Encap? > Ability to change icons (it comes embedded with the standard "R" icons at
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
> expect an installer that prompts for an installation directory and places > an icon on the user's desktop.
What kind of dalog do you have with RT? Have you directly suggested improvements like these to them?
> -Does Encap work across platforms? > Each platform requires it's own version of encap.
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> eg. $10,000 in sales covers the cost of encap for two platforms, even if > most sales occurred on only one platform.
Sorry I don't quite follow your point.. What do you think about an attractive bundle Encap price? Any 4 platforms for $ abc? What about enabling limited trial/demo options for Encap?
> - Client and end-user reactions to the product? > They love the UI of the application and don't know [or care] that it was > written with REBOL.
Does anyone else? ./Jason

 [5/8] from: rebologue:y:ahoo at: 19-Sep-2002 6:52


Thanks Ashley! I've been following REBOL for a long time, and keenly interested in Encap. Your responses to Jason's questions are a goldmine of information. Encap isn't mentioned anywhere on Rebol.com (did I miss it?), and I see no information on the Alliance, Royalty and Distribution programs. Roughly a year ago I exchanged some e-mails with Cindy, and I got the sense that many of the details were still being worked out. When only the Alliance program appeared on the Purchase page, I figured the other programs had been consolidated into Alliance. $500 USD seems like an attainable price for this feature, although of course royalty/license issues still apply. Thanks for the info. Very helpful. // Ed

 [6/8] from: carl:cybercraft at: 20-Sep-2002 9:08


On 20-Sep-02, Ed O'Connor wrote:
> Thanks Ashley! > I've been following REBOL for a long time, and keenly > interested in Encap. > Your responses to Jason's questions are a goldmine of > information. Encap isn't mentioned anywhere on > Rebol.com (did I miss it?),
Very likely. Even a search for "Encap" on the site won't find any reference to it, but it does get a mention in the recently updated FAQ... http://www.rebol.com/faq.html I think Ashley's post is probably the best source of public info about Encap now. Which suggests REBOL's apparent lack of uptake isn't entirely due to the commercial REBOLs not being freely distributable. Still early days for REBOL I think. -- Carl Read

 [7/8] from: atruter:hih:au at: 20-Sep-2002 16:22


Thanks for all the positive feedback. Now some responses to responses (is this turning into a Q&A or what? ;) ).
> These were good comments and a good read. Thanks for your efforts in
giving us this information. - Paul Tretter Thankyou. Also thanks to Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky for actually answering Jason's questions first! ;)
> Hi, just one question about this: Do you use a Windows compatible GUI
layout or do you use the Rebol look? Later you wrote that you don't want to let others know how your app was made. If you use the Rebol look it's clear that this is not a "native" Windows application. Robert I use the REBOL look (most notably the btn's) but with my own "dialog management" interface. Basically a title-bar with "Info", "Help" and Close btns right-aligned. Clicking on the title-bar makes the client area disappear which is handy when dealing with images (it lets you quickly see the underlying image without dismissing the active dialog). Anyone familiar with REBOL would recognise the UI for what it is, but that does not make for too many people at this time so I don't needlessly volunteer that bit of information. As REBOL and / or my product gain market share then this becomes less important to hide. Someone, somewhere will eventually say, "Aha, you wrote that in REBOL and *that* is why your development cycle is quarter the time of ours.". By that stage I should have a two-year lead on the market (albeit a small one), and as easy as REBOL is to learn and use, it takes at least a year (IMHO) to tool-up to the level where you can write decent-sized applications.
> Of course I'd love to hear more here about your application. Can you
describe it better in general or Rebol terms without revealing too much to your potential competitors? Sure. I'm not that worried by my competitors as I have a reasonable technical (both hardware and software) lead on them and the intangible advantages (marketing, agency agreements, backing of industry and field leaders) counts for more in the long run. In general terms the software is an Image Management system that enables a practitioner (Optometrists at the moment) to capture high resolution digital images (~5 megapixel) and assign them to a patient and a consultation. These images can then be searched, compared, annotated (both graphically and textually). The system allows images (and their "effects") to be cross-referenced to each other and reports generated via a sophisticated pdf-maker.r interface (with due credit and copyright acknowledged). It is a pure REBOL app (apart from some aspects of the PDF interface) and could not have been done without the help / knowledge gained from this list! This is why I am more than happy to "give back" my fledgling commercial experiences ... if it helps others commercialise REBOL then we all win.
> You mention Medical Imaging.. what quantity of image data are your
handling, how big are the files, how fast is it, format? I should have said "Healthcare Imaging" as "Medical Imaging" means something else to most folks, ;) Images are ~5 megapixel JPEG with an image quality of ~95% (about 1.2mb on disk, 15mb in memory). Each practitioner generates 25-75 images per day. Most image processing (zoom, grayscale, annotation, next, prev, etc) is instantaneous given a decent FSB (Celeron / Duron are *slow* for this reason). Emboss and drawing [on the image] tend to be slower, but still tolerable.
> Interesting. What kind of physuical package do you sell?
Software - CD plus printed manual in a box. Hardware add-ons include "Image Processing" PC, Digital Camera, Camera adaptor, Slit-lamp, Beam-splitter, USB / Remote switcher. The hardware tends to sell the software and vice versa, but the software is the main game.
> Does this mean your prudct is also not network-oriented either?
Fully network capable. Includes a concurrent licence manager and a semaphore locking facility (for DB and log operations). I used to work for Oracle so this sort of stuff is pretty close to my heart. ;)
> The big ongoing debate here is how to stimulate developer needs and
growth as well as profitable REBOL sales. Any more thoughts on that? I could have written the app in Delphi (I'm not a C guy, although my PERL is pretty hot, and Kylix lets me write to Linux if need be). Main reasons for going with REBOL were: 1) The language allows me to implement a large variety of functionality without recourse to external libraries, add-ons, modules, API's, etc. Having the entirety of the solution implemented in REBOL means that I can focus my expertise in one area (REBOL) and have the ability to control and rectify any functional / logic problems (ie. I don't have to delve into other peoples code / binaries). 2) The interpreter / compiler must be stable and any bugs must have simple work-arounds. If it crashes or leaks memory I'm not interested. Fortunately, the few minor bugs that REBOL does have are easily worked-around. 3) It lets me develop applications in about quarter the time I am used to. With REBOL I often find the line between proto-typing and development quite fine. As the NIKE saying goes, "just do it". 4) The highly compact and readable code size lets me change and fix code orders of magnitude faster than I could before. Being able to implement a major functional change hours after it is suggested tends to astonish most folks (both IT and non-IT alike). 5) A "support area" with a low noise to signal ratio. This ml is probably the best I have ever come across. 6) A low entry cost for commercialisation. I actually like the royalty agreement as my exposure in the case of failure is just $499, while 90% of any success is pretty reasonable to me if the previous points hold true. Moral issues aside, I would not even consider 10% on a VB or Access app as the "value" proposition (subjective I know) is different. I believe "my market" wants something that: 1) works and works well 2) is simple / intuitive to use (KISS) 3) is smart (eg. autosave, postcode completion, etc) 4) runs out of the box on any PC 5) runs on any flavour of windoze without *any* changes / differences 6) integrates seemlessly with application required devices (eg. a digital camera) 7) generates professional looking printed matter that can faxed, emailed directly to clients / peers 8) uses common data-storage standards (eg. JPEG) to ensure ready access to data over the years 9) is secure This reflects my market. Your market may be Mac (Academics), Linux (Geeks) or whatever. The more technical your market the greater the functional expectations.
> What kind of dalog do you have with RT?
Nothing mysterious here, just a few emails back and forth with Cindy on royalty / licence / encap issues. Trying to start my own company has made me realise what "time poor" is all about. There is no time to waste. For this reason I try to keep my correspondence with RT to a concise minimum. Neither they or I can afford the time. RT's attitude to changes in REBOL itself are that the more you bring in the easier (cheaper) it is to get changes. I have no problem with this, I don't expect my $499 to get me much input into where REBOL goes ... make a million though and the relationship changes. This is no different from Macdonald's listening to its bigger franchises in preference to it's smaller ones.
> Have you directly suggested improvements like these to them?
Yes, mostly encap related.
>> Purchase encap for each platform you intend to market for. Note that
higher
>> sales will effectively let you obtain encap on other platforms "for
free".
>> eg. $10,000 in sales covers the cost of encap for two platforms, even if >> most sales occurred on only one platform. > Sorry I don't quite follow your point..
My fault. Let's say I purchase encap for windoze ($499). I can sell $4,990 worth of software before having to hand over additional licence fees. Say sales reach $4,000 and look set to triple. Say I also wish to purchase encap for linux. Well if those two things do happen ($12,000 in sales and purchase encap for linux) then I have paid $1,200 to RT. Whether this was one encap for windows licence and $701 dollars in commission or two encap licences (one windows, one linux) and $202 in commission is a moot point. In both cases I have handed over 10% of my sales proceeds ($1,200) but in the 2nd case I have two encap licences for my troubles. My original point was that multiple OS encap licences don't "cost" anything (just like the original licence) so long as your software sales are 10 times the net amount you spent on encap licences.
> What do you think about an attractive bundle Encap price? Any 4 platforms
for $ abc? Good idea as the current scheme encourages you to focus on one platform only (at least until you can "cover" the cost of another one).
> What about enabling limited trial/demo options for Encap?
Probably not a good idea as there are so many ways to implement this, ignoring the variable policy requirements (expires after 30 days, or 20 runs, or on 1-Jan-2003, etc) I imagine most people will want this feature (if used) to be exposed through their own UI with their own processing branches (online register, email, phone, fax, etc).
>> They love the UI of the application and don't know [or care] that it was
written with REBOL.
> Does anyone else?
Had a competitor at the trade show get a stooge to pose as a sales prospect and ask, "What was this written in?", to which I responded "C", then, Which vendor? . My answer was mostly truthful (I believe the REBOL interpreter is written in C, which accounts for 99% of the executable size), but demonstrates that people want to know how the distinctive "look & feel" were achieved. Remember that most folks writing windoze apps with windoze tools aren't graphics artists and find it difficult to create a non-native looking UI. Your typical Optometrist however much prefers an application with a few clearly labelled buttons as opposed to another windows like application. They want to show their patients an impressive looking diagnostic tool not another piece of PC software, I can't stress how important it is that people want to buy and use simple tools that work reliably ... no-one is impressed with complex menu structures that offer a multitude of options and choices of which only 20% are regularly used. KISS.
> Roughly a year ago I exchanged some e-mails with Cindy, and I got the
sense that many of the details were still being worked out. - Ed O'Connor RT are doing *something* with their licence arrangements (I don't know what) so are probably not pushing encap / royalty agreements as hard as they could. I needed something ASAP (so an agent could demo our executable) so I went for the Royalty Agreement instead of waiting until "things get sorted out". I have believe that RT will act in good faith whatever happens and if different commercial licence arrangements come out in the future then I would seek to standardise on them regardless of whether they were more or less favourable than the present ones. My view is that the current arrangements are interim to a certain extent (heck, my demo uses VIEW/Beta when it comes to that, but RT Betas are better than most vendors Production releases anyway).
> I think Ashley's post is probably the best source of public info about
Encap now. Which suggests REBOL's apparent lack of uptake isn't entirely due to the commercial REBOLs not being freely is atributable. - Carl Read Thanx. I hope RT steps in if I have inadvertently misrepresented anything or anyone! ;) Regards, Ashley

 [8/8] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 20-Sep-2002 10:22


Thanks for taking the time to write your views down Ashley. They are very helpful. A project I'm working on is getting ready to move to the next demo phase, where encap will be used, so I recently contacted RT about it. Cindy sent me the current licensing info for encap and said they would be trying to get it on the web site soon. --Gregg

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