REBOL Books

[1/16] from: rphilipp::suffolk::lib::ny::us at: 21-Jan-2001 7:18

Hello, Has anybody read this book: Rebol by Blanton Goldman Hardcover Published by McGraw-Hill Companies, The, Jan 2000 ISBN: 0072122773 Is it better/worse/same as : Rebol : The Offical Guide by John Blanton, Blanton Goldman Trade Cloth Published by McGraw-Hill International Publishing Group, Jan 2000 ISBN: 007212279X Thanks, Robert P.

[2/16] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 21-Jan-2001 13:50

Hi, they are both identical books imho :-) Cheers, -perk-

[3/16] from: rphilipp:suffolk:lib:ny:us at: 21-Jan-2001 7:45

Never mind, Its apparently the same book.

[4/16] from: rphilipp:suffolk:lib:ny:us at: 21-Jan-2001 8:00

Thanks

[5/16] from: mat:eurogamer at: 21-Jan-2001 16:28

Heya Robert, RP> Is it better/worse/same as : RP> Rebol : The Offical Guide Recommend you skip this, it's nasty. The guide you can get in PDF is a million times better. More of a reference guide, I suppose, but this is basically what you need in conjunction with snooping readymade scripts. -- Mat Bettinson - EuroGamer's Gaming Evangelist with a Goatee http://www.eurogamer.net | http://www.eurogamer-network.com

[6/16] from: mat:eurogamer at: 21-Jan-2001 16:52

Heya Mat, MB> Recommend you skip this, it's nasty. The guide you can get in PDF is a MB> million times better. More of a reference guide, I suppose, but this MB> is basically what you need in conjunction with snooping readymade MB> scripts. I should say, that Rebol users guide the printed version, would be an excellent book. Obviously the PDF is a pain in the arse to refer to. -- Mat Bettinson - EuroGamer's Gaming Evangelist with a Goatee http://www.eurogamer.net | http://www.eurogamer-network.com

[7/16] from: rphilipp:suffolk:lib:ny:us at: 21-Jan-2001 14:21

Thanks Guys, I've already ordered the " REBOL/Core Users Guide " hard copy. "REBOL: The Official Guide " has its good parts, especially the sections on debugging scripts. I also have the "REBOL for Dummies Book" which has a lot of good tips. ALL in all, I think all three books are useful. Robert P.

[8/16] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 21-Jan-2001 16:09

Hello All : Just my two cents worth here: Mat Bettinson wrote: (regarding "Rebol the Official Guide"_

> Recommend you skip this, it's nasty. The guide you can get in PDF is a > million times better. More of a reference guide, I suppose, but this > is basically what you need in conjunction with snooping readymade > scripts.

Tim here: I must respectfully differ with Matt's opinion here. His opinion provides *no* real information as to the content of Elan's book, nor does he do any credit to the enormous amount of work that went into it. If you want to learn how to put together a distributed database system using rebol , AND learn rebol at the same time - this is for you. But it will take some time, and is for the serious student of both rebol AND database programmer. Rebol the Official Guide is a book for the advanced and needs advanced discipline. "Rebol for Dummies" may be for the less adbanced. If I were to make a recommendation to some who wished to earn money with rebol, then I would recommend both books above, as well as the PDF and this mailing list. Regards Tim

[9/16] from: gchiu:compkarori at: 22-Jan-2001 15:02

I have both books - the amount one gets out of them depends upon your level as a programmer, and the target audience is different. You can read sample chapters at http://www.rebolpress.com/rfd/about.html and form your own opinion, or read other opinions at Amazon. Elan and Ralph both post here, and so you can form a further opinion based upon their replies to questions! -- Graham Chiu

[10/16] from: mat:eurogamer at: 22-Jan-2001 12:30

Heya Tim, TJ> I must respectfully differ with Matt's opinion here. His opinion provides TJ> *no* real information as to the content of Elan's book, nor does he do TJ> any credit to the enormous amount of work that went into it. <shrug> I wasn't writing a critique. I was writing a recommendation on what books I think he should buy in order to best learn Rebol. TJ> If you want to learn how to put together a distributed database system TJ> using rebol , AND learn rebol at the same time - this is for you. But TJ> it will take some time, and is for the serious student of both rebol AND TJ> database programmer. Well that's true. However it says Rebol the Official Guide on the cover. It doesn't say Rebol and Distributed Databases. I guess that's what annoyed me. It has skimpy documentation of network protocols, pretty much no reference section at all which as an 'Official Guide' I would have thought mandatory. I bought this before that User Guide PDF became available. IE when I wanted to know about X in Rebol, I flipped to the index and tried to look it up and more often than not it wasn't there at all. TJ> "Rebol the Official Guide" is a book for the advanced and needs advanced TJ> discipline. "Rebol for Dummies" may be for the less adbanced. The official guide is for the advanced? Now it's my turn to respectfully differ. Chapter 1. The Rebol Programming language (because you didn't know before you bought the book apparently) Chapter 2. Installing Rebol (yes it's that hard) Chapter 3. Taking the First Steps (which includes such classics such as 'Loading Rebol under Windows' and 'Using Print') Chapter 4. Rebol Basics (etc et etc) It reads like a highschool guide to BASIC (along with how to complete your first project) quite frankly. Granted the entire sections on handling data are good, well that's basically the bulk of the book. Now in *my* opinion there's no way you'd use Rebol for coding a database anyhow - it's just not suitable for that sort of thing. What it *is* good for is advanced data mining of the Web and utility scripting etc especially the native net support. That's not catered for very well here at all. IE it doesn't even tell you how to delete a mail from a pop3 box except to say that you need to use low-level port functions to do it. It's not a bad book at all, it just wont suffice as an only book. Is that a better critique? TJ> If I were to make a recommendation to some who wished to earn money TJ> with rebol, then I would recommend both books above, as well as the TJ> PDF and this mailing list. Fair comment. For an enthusiast, I recommend Rebol User Guide and this mailing list and possibly the Rebol for Dummies as the CGI section example on rebolpress looks good. -- Mat Bettinson - EuroGamer's Gaming Evangelist with a Goatee http://www.eurogamer.net | http://www.eurogamer-network.com

[11/16] from: rebol:techscribe at: 22-Jan-2001 23:46

Hi Mat, As the (main) co-author of RTOG, perhaps I should respond with a word or two? You wrote:

> <shrug> I wasn't writing a critique. I was writing a recommendation on > what books I think he should buy in order to best learn Rebol.

I take it that you mean to make a distinction between a critique, and offering your advice. I don't see why this distinction would have any relevance regarding the statements you make about my book. [...]

> it says Rebol the Official Guide on the > cover. It doesn't say Rebol and Distributed Databases. I guess that's > what annoyed me.

The chapters dealing with the construction of a distributed database are an example for REBOL in action within the context of relatively large, complex and complete application. After we cover the basics of REBOL programming, parsing, debugging, objects, contexts, CGI programming, ports, catching exceptions, making custom errors, and other features, we exercise REBOL's features and demonstrate REBOL's scalability by implementing a traditional application - a dbms. These chapters provide a wealth of code snippets that showcase how REBOL can be used in the real world. DBMSs are traditionally one of the three most widely used classical applications, the other two being spreadsheets and wordprocessors. The console based REBOL interpreter does not allow us to implement a wordprocessor. In the tradition of Turbo Pascal that shipped with an example spreadsheet program, we chose to demonstrate REBOL programming using the third of the three classical mainstream applications. Don't read these chapters as - aha, so this is how you implement a dbms in REBOL. That's not what these chapters are about. Read these chapters as - aha, "thats" how you can accomplish this , and "this" is what you have to watch out for when you do "that". (See for instance work-arounds for storing paths in words, and using paths in objects, converting between paths and blocks (at the time REBOL did not yet support path to block conversion, for instance), stepping through objects, serializing objects, navigating through multi-level objects without knowing their structure, and more.

> It has skimpy documentation of network protocols,

I beg to differ. The network protocols are based on ports, and a) ports are discussed in some length, b) the book shows you how to explore the port-based network protocols implementation, and how to add your own protocols. That's pretty cool!

> pretty much no reference section at all which as an 'Official Guide' I > would have thought mandatory. I bought this before that User Guide PDF > became available. > > IE when I wanted to know about X in Rebol, I flipped to the index and > tried to look it up and more often than not it wasn't there at all.

I'm very disappointed with the index. We had negotiated with Osborne to provide the index, and later found out that they had hired a professional indexer instead. I didn't even get to see the index before the book shipped, even though I requested that I get a chance to edit it, before it is included in the book. I take this criticism (even though you do not mean it as a critique) very serious.

> The official guide is for the advanced? Now it's my turn to > respectfully differ. > > Chapter 1. The Rebol Programming language (because you didn't know > before you bought the book apparently)

Thank you. You are very smart! This is part of advice, not of critique, yes? I called this chapter "The REBOL Programming Language" to announce that - unlike the other chapters - this chapter does not deal with some specific aspect of REBOL, but instead provide an overview of the language as a whole. This chapter conversationally covers differet aspects of the complete language. This is the chapter you turn to if you are a seasoned programmer, you're not quite sure if REBOL is for you, and you want to get a feel for the language. What are the goals of this language? Which language features does this language support? What can you do with the language? How does the language feel?

> Chapter 2. Installing Rebol (yes it's that hard)

Perhaps not for you.

> Chapter 3. Taking the First Steps (which includes such classics such > as 'Loading Rebol under Windows' and 'Using Print') > Chapter 4. Rebol Basics (etc et etc) > It reads like a highschool guide to BASIC (along with how to complete > your first project) quite frankly.

REBOL has often been hailed as a user-friendly language. I believe that - besides being a fine tool for any gracefully aged (or ageing) programmer - REBOL, because it really is a user-friendly language, could empower people who have never dreamed of programming, people who are barely computer literate, to make more creative use of their computers, and take control of what their computer can do for them, instead of relying on Bill Gates and his merry gang to provide them with yet another point-and-click off-the-shelf feature that almost - but never quite - does what they need it to do, provided they add another 256MB of RAM, another 10Gigs, and another 500 MHz to their system. Believe it or not, after watching a few real, live people who fall in this category give up as soon as they had to unzip the REBOL distribution, I decided that we'd have to guide these people through that process, if they were ever to advance to the point of finding out just how easy it is to make REBOL do some useful tricks.

> Granted the entire sections on > handling data are good, well that's basically the bulk of the book.

Data handling is at the heart of REBOL.

> Now in *my* opinion there's no way you'd use Rebol for coding a > database anyhow - it's just not suitable for that sort of thing.

Now is *that* so? I guess that's "*my* opinion", is it? Did you EARN the starts you use to point at yourself? I think REBOL is an excellent basis for a multivalue distributed dbms, for small or medium requirements. The dbms we implemented in the book is not quite up to par, because it was written to showcase REBOL coding techniques, and it is not optimized for dbms transactions, nor does it include any "defensive" error detection, trapping, and handling, because they would have distracted the reader from the essential algorithms. (Try, catch and throw are discussed in a different chapter). But - considering today's PC computing power - a REBOL based dbms could easily perform as well as a dbms written in a compiled language for a 4.77 MHz 8088 IBM PC. And guess what, the 4.77 MHz 8088 IBM PCs did some very useful things in their time.

> What > it *is* good for is advanced data mining of the Web and utility > scripting etc especially the native net support. That's not catered > for very well here at all.

Well, chapters 12 and 22 should have come in handy. They discuss parsing in some length and some detail.

> IE it doesn't even tell you how to delete a mail from a pop3 box > except to say that you need to use low-level port functions to do it. > > It's not a bad book at all, it just wont suffice as an only book. >

<shrug> It depends on your needs. If it's only going to be one book, then I'd say it's a pretty good choice. But, in all fairness, as its author, I may be a little biased. Take Care, Elan

[12/16] from: mat:eurogamer at: 23-Jan-2001 11:31

Heya Elan, E> I take it that you mean to make a distinction between a critique, and E> offering your advice. I don't see why this distinction would have any E> relevance regarding the statements you make about my book. Tim said my earlier post was a critique, it wasn't. This post you replied obviously was.

>> Chapter 1. The Rebol Programming language (because you didn't know >> before you bought the book apparently)

E> Thank you. You are very smart! This is part of advice, not of critique, E> yes? Ahh, I see you've taken this to heart and are charging in blindly in defence of your book. Why did I get into this? <sigh> Tim claimed this book was for an advanced user and I'm replying. Had you read the thread you would see this - obviously my statements are not news to you. I said it was not for the advanced user and you are seemingly agreeing with me. I've covered the critique thing. I notice you don't quote my line at the end saying "Is that a better critique?" :)

>> Chapter 2. Installing Rebol (yes it's that hard)

E> Perhaps not for you. I would hardly describe myself as an advanced user. I had no problem with these sections - you are taking my comments out of context.

>> Now in *my* opinion there's no way you'd use Rebol for coding a >> database anyhow - it's just not suitable for that sort of thing.

E> Now is *that* so? I guess that's "*my* opinion", is it? Did you EARN the E> starts you use to point at yourself? I assume this lost something in the typing. I can't exactly see how you can find fault with me offering an opinion and making it clear that it is only that. It's probably just easier to call me an arsehole :)

>> It's not a bad book at all, it just wont suffice as an only book.

E> <shrug> It depends on your needs. If it's only going to be one book, E> then I'd say it's a pretty good choice. But, in all fairness, as its E> author, I may be a little biased. Well quite, so I rather hoped you'd be a little more level headed about my opinion on the matter. After all I paid cash for it. To be perfectly frank, I fear for anyone after advice here on what book(s) to get. IMO it's not optimal having the author's prowling the list trying to skew the third-party opinion. -- Mat Bettinson - EuroGamer's Gaming Evangelist with a Goatee http://www.eurogamer.net | http://www.eurogamer-network.com

[13/16] from: tim::johnsons-web::com at: 23-Jan-2001 8:33

Re: [REBOL]REBOL Books/Database programming

Hello; Mat Bettinson wrote:

> Now in *my* opinion there's no way you'd use Rebol for coding a > database anyhow - it's just not suitable for that sort of thing.

I do *mostly* database programming. I recently rewrote a project that I support for a local chamber of commerce membership listing. It was originally done in C++ w/ Borland Database engine. I've been programming in C for 10 years. Using rebol was far easier, took a fraction of the code, and is portable without recompilation. I am convinced through "my" own experience that rebol works *very* effectively for small-to-medium database projects. On a larger scale, rebol would be just as effective as the front end to a dedicated server, IMHO. I'm also doing some math here: If I bill $50.00 per hour for my sevices and have to "eat" my R&D time, then if I buy all of the existing rebol books, and save myself 3 or more hours of R&D, I will have paid for them. Elan's book illustrates and teaches rebol by developing one large project, with the presumption of (as an example) a literate non-programmer building a do-it-yourself DDBMS for a video store. Works for me. But maybe not for everyone. I guess that if I were to think of a way to complement the exisiting set of rebol books, I might say that it would be nice to see a "Rebol Cookbook", with - say - a dozen to twenty "recipes". It's good to see a vigorous discussion around this topic, I *do* hope that it doesn't get personal. Regards Tim

[14/16] from: rebol:techscribe at: 23-Jan-2001 10:35

Re: REBOL Books

Hi Matt, thank you for your opinion. Take Care, Elan

[15/16] from: steve:shireman:semaxwireless at: 24-Jan-2001 13:00

I was reading about 100 pages in the Dummies book, and happened upon the definition for mezzanine functions. I had guessed that mezzanine functions were maybe something like static classes in Java, like the Math library which has to be accessed by lots of classes. But the Dummies book said that they are code written in Rebol but included in the main executible. (p. 73 when discussing the special type, Native) Is the book correct? ;-) The more you learn, the less you know. Steve Shireman

[16/16] from: larry:ecotope at: 24-Jan-2001 18:53

Hi Steve Yes, that is correct. The mezzanine functions are those which are written in REBOL, but built-in. They sometimes provide a higher-level interface to some underlying native functions which may be dangerous or undocumented or just plain inconvenient. In other cases, they are just handy shortcuts. In any case, you can examine them with SOURCE. Cheers -Larry