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[REBOL] Re: Windows GUI apps: Rebol/SDK vs. Visual C++ 2003

From: greggirwin:mindspring at: 24-Jan-2003 16:34

Hi Jose, j> First, let me say I like everything REBOL but I am j> looking at this from a combined business + technical j> focus. Me too. Commercial applications are my target. Some in-house stuff for clients as well, to be sure. j> I think it's hard to have an opinion on something that j> you don't know much about it. This was the case I had j> with C++, seen lots of criticism, complex, etc... but j> once I started looking into it I liked it even more j> than any scripting language, and found it's the j> current language to beat for any serious app, either j> client or server. What you like is very important (at least to me). Different langugages resonate with different minds. I've only been developing software for about 14 years now, so I'm not a real old timer, but I've looked at a lot of langauges over that time. I try to match tools to needs. If I'm going to specialize (and I do), I pick a tool that will be as generally applicable as possible, and have a plan for how to augment it, or know when to direct people somewhere else. I've only been REBOLing for a year and a half now. Also, it's sometimes hard to delineate between what a "language" supports, and what toolkits are available for it, not that it often matters except for the sake of argument. When you say "low cost of development", do you mean the cost of the actual tools, the cost of your time in developing the products, or a combination of the two? Just something to think about. When VB came out, and for a good while after, when I'd propose it as a solution, people would say "But C is 15-200% faster than VB!"; I'd reply that VB was actually much *faster* than an equivalent C app - usually 6-12 months faster. :) j> Are you interested in a particular subject, e.g. j> finite-state machines, google and you'll find serious j> c++ libraries for it. Math requirements, the same ... Yes indeed (and FSMs are near and dear to my heart). For me, as good as REBOL is when compared to other languages directly (i.e. how we use other them today), that's just icing on the cake. The *real* cake for me is how REBOL allows me to think and how I'll build software with it when I really start to "get it". My FSM engine was one of the things that started to open my eyes a bit, but I won't bore everyone here with details; mail me directly and I'll just bore you. :) In any case, most languages aren't concerned with solving the problems that I want to see solved, but REBOL is. j> Not sure whether Rebol is MOP or non MOP ! It's a proprietary language at this time, as I think it should be. j> Rebol's community is the best there is, or the best I j> found, but would like to hear from people that are j> really facing the situation I do. Again, rebol might j> be the best from an academic or IT standpoint but I am j> only looking at it from a "for profit" sw developer j> standpoint. It's a small community, and nobody can say for sure where things will lead. I liken it to the VB community in '91-'92. Other languages have their own loyal following as well, but most languages aren't good for humans. I think BASIC (structured) and REBOL are both good languages for humans, which is why I like them. Hardly a formula for success though. :) I started writing commercial Windows apps in VB1. I'm far from an academic or IT guy, but mine is only one opinion. j> You might argue that if something is really good who j> cares about standards, but standards are very powerful j> when they exist. How else can you explain M$ VC7 j> compiler suddenly being very compliant to C++ std when j> VC6 wasn't ! How can you explain VB's success in that light? No standard there. :) The question is not whether VC7 is compliant, but whether it's better *because* it's compliant. j> Why nobody has built a good cross platform library j> (maybe I am not aware) that lets you build a great j> looking app in Linux and run it in windows and not be j> able to distinguish it from a VC or VB app ? 'cause it's darn hard! :) j> I've come to the conclusion that rebol is good as glue j> on the server side but not much else (except small j> easy to maintain websites -if you build the tools for j> it). My conclusion is *very* different than yours, but our needs are probably different as well. I have about a dozen C++ books on my shelf but only did very minor actual work with it, so I speak from a position of informed inexperience. :) My goal is not to influence you, of course, just to give you my view. -- Gregg