[REBOL] Re: Windows GUI apps: Rebol/SDK vs. Visual C++ 2003
From: tim:johnsons-web at: 24-Jan-2003 14:00
Jose:
Have you looked at the cygwin project?
Have you looked at OOP approaches to C
(as opposed to C++)?
Do you know about Dynace?
> Actually, REBOL has been a great training language to
> help me look into C++ with a broad set of
> requirements.
Not enough as been discussed (IMHO and within
earshot) about how to use rebol as a prototyping
tool and for transformational programming.
(Using rebol to write code for other, more
verbose languages like C/C++)
-tim-
* jose <[jjmmes--yahoo--es]> [030124 12:36]:
> Petr, Gregg, Tim, thanks for your input. Here is some
> more info to understand my POV.
>
> First, let me say I like everything REBOL but I am
> looking at this from a combined business + technical
> focus. Also I've spent about 1 year developing in
> Rebol and suddenly dig into C++ and like it a lot.
>
> I think it's hard to have an opinion on something that
> you don't know much about it. This was the case I had
> with C++, seen lots of criticism, complex, etc... but
> once I started looking into it I liked it even more
> than any scripting language, and found it's the
> current language to beat for any serious app, either
> client or server.
>
> My requirements are:
>
> MUST HAVE:
> Client requirements
> > * Basic GUI, gfx and networking
> * Platform that allows me to evolve the technology in
> any direction required - this is key if you want to be
> in the business long term
> * Good licensing terms and low cost of development
> * Some critical mass of developers
> * Compliance to broadly accepted standards
> * Solid intellectual framework
>
> Server requirements
> > Everything built with GNU C++ and Linux (no doubts
> about this !)
>
> NICE TO HAVE:
> * Cross-platform, eventually a must have
>
> I started looking at the nice to have first and found
> some C++ cross-platform GUI libraries (wxWindows and
> ezWindows) but was not strongly compelled to use them.
> This is clearly the requirement that would drive me to
> REBOL/SDK, but right now this is a nice to have
> requirement.
>
> I first want to clarify that I do not mean any of this
> as a criticism to REBOL, which I really like, but
> stating this beforehand will help me be real candid
> about the situation I face (I would summarize the
> situation I face as: entrepreneur trying to make a
> technical choice to build a business long term, not
> necessarily a sw business).
>
> * Basic GUI, gfx and networking
> >
> Here I am looking at a language that lets me do
> anything I want, it's well documented and powerful. I
> think lots of languages have this nowadays ! More than
> anything I want a tool that I am not stuck with and
> that eventually I can code what I want if it's very
> expensive to buy or is not available.
>
> I think my whole point of view about languages changed
> when I read one Stepanov's interview in the web (C++
> STL library inventor, or one of the inventors). He
> talks about STL and mentions MOP languages (Money
> Oriented Languages) and what limitations those
> lenguages entail. Well, you can think of well known
> MOP languages: Java, VB, C#, .. and although I am
> trying to make a money-oriented decision for a
> technical business, I am certainly driven away from
> any of those languages.
>
> Platform that allows me to evolve the technology in
> any
> >
> direction required
> >
> No MOP language allows you to evolve the technology
> beyond the basic stuff because it's not good for the
> owners of the language. C++ complies to an ISO
> standard
> for the most basic stuff but everything else is open
> to lots of people who are building all types of
> serious libraries.
>
> When I first run into rebol i thought command (with
> library access) would let me evolve into anything i
> wanted and keep rebol as the glue. Once I found how
> unimportant that was to rebol i was compelled to look
> into c and c++.
>
> Are you interested in a particular subject, e.g.
> finite-state machines, google and you'll find serious
> c++ libraries for it. Math requirements, the same ...
>
> Good licensing terms and low cost of development
> >
> I really want simplicity, ease of use, low cost of
> development, .. bla, bla.. but in the end only NM
> languages (non MOP) can really get there because with
> MOP you will be stuck with all types of business
> problems or decisions that hamper what you can do.
>
> Not sure whether Rebol is MOP or non MOP !
>
> Some critical mass of developers
> >
> Rebol's community is the best there is, or the best I
> found, but would like to hear from people that are
> really facing the situation I do. Again, rebol might
> be the best from an academic or IT standpoint but I am
> only looking at it from a "for profit" sw developer
> standpoint.
>
> Compliance to broadly accepted standards
> >
> You might argue that if something is really good who
> cares about standards, but standards are very powerful
> when they exist. How else can you explain M$ VC7
> compiler suddenly being very compliant to C++ std when
> VC6 wasn't !
> O'reilly: what's new in VC++ 7
> http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/11/18/everettcpp.html
>
> There is no cross-platform gui standard, if there was,
> I would use it right away, but when you're trying to
> make money you have to be pragmatic on this.
>
> Why nobody has built a good cross platform library
> (maybe I am not aware) that lets you build a great
> looking app in Linux and run it in windows and not be
> able to distinguish it from a VC or VB app ? Maybe
> rebol will be that, maybe java, maybe stg else !
>
> Solid intellectual framework
> >
> I am an electrical engineer but have a biz background.
> Started developing 2 years ago, 10 years after
> graduating. I'm spending tons of time trying to
> understand what is best from a technical standpoint.
>
> After looking at any scripting language I heard of, I
> ran into rebol and fell in love. I feel the crush is
> gone now, specially after I read tons of research
> papers and look at modern c++ design books.
>
> I think it all depends what tool you need, you all
> said that. I summarize the requirements as 1) easy to
> use client apps and 2) scalable server apps.
>
> I've come to the conclusion that rebol is good as glue
> on the server side but not much else (except small
> easy to maintain websites -if you build the tools for
> it).
>
> On the client side, I am still quite confused, so
> thanks for your ideas and comments.
>
> Regards
> jose
>
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--
Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]>
http://www.alaska-internet-solutions.com
http://www.johnsons-web.com
