[REBOL] Re: Windows GUI apps: Rebol/SDK vs. Visual C++ 2003
From: jjmmes::yahoo:es at: 24-Jan-2003 22:21
Petr, Gregg, Tim, thanks for your input. Here is some
more info to understand my POV.
First, let me say I like everything REBOL but I am
looking at this from a combined business + technical
focus. Also I've spent about 1 year developing in
Rebol and suddenly dig into C++ and like it a lot.
Actually, REBOL has been a great training language to
help me look into C++ with a broad set of
I think it's hard to have an opinion on something that
you don't know much about it. This was the case I had
with C++, seen lots of criticism, complex, etc... but
once I started looking into it I liked it even more
than any scripting language, and found it's the
current language to beat for any serious app, either
client or server.
My requirements are:
* Basic GUI, gfx and networking
* Platform that allows me to evolve the technology in
any direction required - this is key if you want to be
in the business long term
* Good licensing terms and low cost of development
* Some critical mass of developers
* Compliance to broadly accepted standards
* Solid intellectual framework
Everything built with GNU C++ and Linux (no doubts
about this !)
NICE TO HAVE:
* Cross-platform, eventually a must have
I started looking at the nice to have first and found
some C++ cross-platform GUI libraries (wxWindows and
ezWindows) but was not strongly compelled to use them.
This is clearly the requirement that would drive me to
REBOL/SDK, but right now this is a nice to have
I first want to clarify that I do not mean any of this
as a criticism to REBOL, which I really like, but
stating this beforehand will help me be real candid
about the situation I face (I would summarize the
situation I face as: entrepreneur trying to make a
technical choice to build a business long term, not
necessarily a sw business).
* Basic GUI, gfx and networking
Here I am looking at a language that lets me do
anything I want, it's well documented and powerful. I
think lots of languages have this nowadays ! More than
anything I want a tool that I am not stuck with and
that eventually I can code what I want if it's very
expensive to buy or is not available.
I think my whole point of view about languages changed
when I read one Stepanov's interview in the web (C++
STL library inventor, or one of the inventors). He
talks about STL and mentions MOP languages (Money
Oriented Languages) and what limitations those
lenguages entail. Well, you can think of well known
MOP languages: Java, VB, C#, .. and although I am
trying to make a money-oriented decision for a
technical business, I am certainly driven away from
any of those languages.
Platform that allows me to evolve the technology in
No MOP language allows you to evolve the technology
beyond the basic stuff because it's not good for the
owners of the language. C++ complies to an ISO
for the most basic stuff but everything else is open
to lots of people who are building all types of
When I first run into rebol i thought command (with
library access) would let me evolve into anything i
wanted and keep rebol as the glue. Once I found how
unimportant that was to rebol i was compelled to look
into c and c++.
Are you interested in a particular subject, e.g.
finite-state machines, google and you'll find serious
c++ libraries for it. Math requirements, the same ...
Good licensing terms and low cost of development
I really want simplicity, ease of use, low cost of
development, .. bla, bla.. but in the end only NM
languages (non MOP) can really get there because with
MOP you will be stuck with all types of business
problems or decisions that hamper what you can do.
Not sure whether Rebol is MOP or non MOP !
Some critical mass of developers
Rebol's community is the best there is, or the best I
found, but would like to hear from people that are
really facing the situation I do. Again, rebol might
be the best from an academic or IT standpoint but I am
only looking at it from a "for profit" sw developer
Compliance to broadly accepted standards
You might argue that if something is really good who
cares about standards, but standards are very powerful
when they exist. How else can you explain M$ VC7
compiler suddenly being very compliant to C++ std when
VC6 wasn't !
O'reilly: what's new in VC++ 7
There is no cross-platform gui standard, if there was,
I would use it right away, but when you're trying to
make money you have to be pragmatic on this.
Why nobody has built a good cross platform library
(maybe I am not aware) that lets you build a great
looking app in Linux and run it in windows and not be
able to distinguish it from a VC or VB app ? Maybe
rebol will be that, maybe java, maybe stg else !
Solid intellectual framework
I am an electrical engineer but have a biz background.
Started developing 2 years ago, 10 years after
graduating. I'm spending tons of time trying to
understand what is best from a technical standpoint.
After looking at any scripting language I heard of, I
ran into rebol and fell in love. I feel the crush is
gone now, specially after I read tons of research
papers and look at modern c++ design books.
I think it all depends what tool you need, you all
said that. I summarize the requirements as 1) easy to
use client apps and 2) scalable server apps.
I've come to the conclusion that rebol is good as glue
on the server side but not much else (except small
easy to maintain websites -if you build the tools for
On the client side, I am still quite confused, so
thanks for your ideas and comments.
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