World: r4wp

Carl couldn't get into Trello, either

Carl tends to run old systems

So do non-geeks

Some people holds to the saying "if it works for you well, dont try 
to fix it"...I belong to them and don't update apps just because 
'update is available'. I got bitten by updating to 'newer and better' 
version many times.

I think, I'm two OS versions behind on my iPhone, and it says, it 
has 26 app updates for me.

I'm one OS X version behind on my MacBook and found out the other 
day, my Xcode is 'old' too. So what? It works.

I haven't updated my Windows and Linux 'machines' in VirtualBox for 
years.


I just can't waste my time on all this updating to "now even more, 
newer, better". It's rubbish! :)

yup ;)

Now go update World! ;P

I tried installing a mail program on my Linode, but the repositories 
for the debian I use are now gone. I'll have to perform a complicated 
day-long upgrade procedure to move to a newer Debian. So, you can 
neglect upgrading to a degree that going forward will be much more 
complicated than simply doing incremental upgrades.

that is an issue with old versions of linux :(

Writing the NLPP program, one of the very biggest challenges was 
to make a no-hassle upgrade procedure. This was one of the hardest 
things to do and also one of the parts that took up most time to 
code and test.

Something is wrong in all this.


I try to see software as tiny bits and pieces, each doing a certain 
task. Like very simple Lego building blocks. So each piece takes 
some input (like a function does) and produces an output. If that 
piece needs to be updated, then it's because it has some error, or 
that there is a faster way to do, what it already does. If new building 
blocks arrive, because new software needs them, then they're just 
added to the system.


If that is done right, then updating should be very simple and only 
include very little data to be transfered to my system.

In the past I've done upgrades by binary diffs
but then you have to track each binary to get the right diff

Geomol, how do you handle changes in configuration structures that 
way?

Couldn't such structures just be small files, each taking care of 
a certain part of the configuration?

Following this thought, maybe all the mezzanine functions in %cortex.w 
(in World) should be separate files in a directory? And the shell 
commands should be separate files in a %libs/shell/ directory.


Reminds me, that I should pick up my database again. It has records 
as separate files.

well, that's black box theory

but things don't exist in isolation

Can't we make them? :)

some-func: func [input1 input2] [...]	; -> produces some output.


That's isolated, and it should work, even if other functions, it 
depends on, get updated. The task is to define each function/object 
as doing one simple thing.

And then implement a system like Erlang, where every piece can be 
hot-swapped.

so you want to distribute source code

each piece needs to be then signed

or virtual machine code
or real machine code

I think, that was what the Elate, that Amiga looked at, what about.

Ok, off topic now ..  can move to ~Chit-chat or ~Humour  :)

:)

Henrik, the package repositories for older Debian versions are still 
available, but you'll have to change the URLs.

They are on archive.debian.org, so use a APT source like the following:

deb http://archive.debian.org/debian/$RELEASE main contrib

(Replace $RELEASE with the codename of your Debian version.)

Yeah, too much work right now, but thanks, anyway. :-)

I'm just wondering (really, just that): is dev capacity (i.e. Cyphre 
GUI. other's on OSX, 64 bit) the limiting factor to accelerate in 
the short term? Or money?

Both, I guess.

We seem to have a somewhat limited dev pool to start with, and most 
of the people capable and willing to work on R3 are also tied up 
elsewhere (to make a living).

Maarten, from my point of view, it's dev capacity.

Yes, but say I'd poor in $1,000,000 today (hypothetically, I'm trying 
to understand what is needed to accelerate), compared to nothing. 
Assuming Android is  the first step (including encap and device access), 
when woud this be done with and without "unlimited money".

A constructive answer to "when would this be done" would require 
realistic planning based on more than a hypothetical offer.

Staying within the hypothetical realm, I think it's very fair to 
say that it would be possible to get it done sooner than without 
"unlimited money".

(That assessment is based on my view that there is quite a bit of 
capacity available which could work full-time on R3.)

Given money, one of the best uses for it would be to give core developers 
stability to commit, and then build the community, which, to me, 
means providing platforms and toolsets that people see as viable 
alternatives to other languages.

Yes, I'm trying to get a handle on "quite a bit capacity available". 
And then attach a pricetag to it to make it happen.

I would want R3 on Android with GUI, GPS, Camera support. And R3 
64 bit Linux server side ("Core").

encappable

 of course. What do we need to make that happen in terms of development 
 time? Then, how much money do we need fo rthat (nt all developers 
 need to be paid full-time, some do it as hobby). Etc.

Do you see my point? For a target, we need to estbalish a time/money 
budget and ratio.

Yes, absolutely. Any good open source projects to use as a model? 
:-\

Because, if I set R3 for development against Scala/Lift/Akka in back 
ends, it's a long way.... Same on mobile: there's Livecode, Corona, 
all of them more mature. So if I treat R3 as an "investment" of sorts, 
the risk/reward ratio needs to be established

Look at the Scala ecosystem (Akka, Lift, Play). Rails. ...

Right, but how did they get funding and support? For Rails, at least, 
they wanted to build the tool for their own use. And they're built 
on top of other infrastructures.

Someone has to say it's worth it to them to pay for some pieces.

Sun paid for Java, IBM paid for Eclipse. They thought they would 
benefit somehow.

And users have to care about what these new tools bring to the table.

Bit of both in my view. Money to support full time development. And 
the knowlegde to know how to is also sparse. A little bit extra on 
info and tutorial like stuff could maybe get some more people started. 
Google's summer of code like the HAIKU project is putting to use 
is beyond reach for the small base of devs for instance.

We are on the other hand lucky to have the enthousiastic giants we 
have now. It is enough to let the projects live on, but not in the 
way blooming as we feel should be the case. 

Yet the progress even in the last weeks is a great accomplishment, 
cannot be said enough..

(that was my answer for Maartens question from 3:23:44 PM