World: r3wp

I'm using your experience with rebol to inspire a friend at work. 
He's shown some interest but I think your the look of your app will 
impress him.

Very cool indeed Steve! Man, I feel like a slow learner now. ;-)

I think Steve should move out of the "I'm New" section. Nice app.

========================================================= 
Perspectives of a newbie! By Steve Thornton (SteveT) 


Hi everyone, just got up and running this morning (think I've found 
a bug in Vista when used on dual-screen Doh!!)


Thanks for everyones very kind comments on my main menu. I'm learning 
masses about Rebol 

(mainly due to hours of reading - and you guy's), I think I will 
be a 'newbie' for quite some time though!


While I love databases and user interface design (yep I literaly 
have sat at customers watching how they work! ;-) I know 'get a life!' 
) I have no formal computer science education so I'm weak on some 
of the theoretical stuff.  We don't all nead to know the theory of 
how search engines etc work, as long as they work!  I look at some 
of the code in the messages on here and think OMG, what a load of 
scientific formulae that is ! :-/ 


I think an overview of some of the 'heavy' stuff would help some 
of us to get the most from Rebol, perhaps some of you 'heavy' guy's/gal's 
could 'volunteer' to post an article on their particular forte. 

One last thing... 


I have a table that holds several bits of [optional] data .. tax 
ref, employer, vat no etc.. and also a flag that the user can set 
as to wether that field is to be displayed. Can I use the following 
structure? Or am I asking for trouble?

Table...

 DETAILS [dRec dRef [dTitle d1] [dTaxref d2] [dVatno d3] [dEmployer 
 d4]]
	
I think I just heard Henrik tutting! :-0

By for now

The code for my reflected icons is below  (with icon). It's nearly 
right just need to get rid of some jaggies.  Just load any 72x72 
icon you want to display.

image image-logo %your-pic.png

main: layout [

    box 72x72 image-logo [alert "You've clicked!" ] 
	   	feel [over: func [face act pos] [
    			face/size: either act [82x82][72x72] show face
   				ref/size: either act [82x50][72x40] show ref

      helper/text: either act ["Click me now!"]["Highlight an icon"] show 
      helper 
    		] 
    	]
    below

    ref: box image-logo 72x40 effect [gradcol 0x1 0.0.0 80.80.80 flip 
    0x1 fit blur]   	
    below
    helper: text "Highlight an icon" silver / 1.5
]

main/size: 150x200
main/effect: [gradient 0x-1 0.0.0 120.120.120]
view/new main
do-events

Sorry first line should be image image-logo load %your-pic.png

Steve, the standard way to signify optional values in REBOL is the 
none value - you can use it like the null value in SQL. If you are 
not reducing your records you can write none as #[none]. The ANY 
function is like the SQL COALESCE function.

If you want to do keyword-based records, put the keywords and values 
in the same block and use
    select/skip data key 2

Put each record in its own block: with variable length records you 
will need to track the end of the record otherwise. This method will 
be slower, but take less space when at least half of the fields are 
usually missing.

Thanks Brian, I've noticed a lot of examples use 'reducing'

In general, fixed-length records with none for missing values is 
the fastest and easiest.

It gets easier in R3, where the behavior of some standard functions 
has been changed to be more in keeping with the none-means-missing-data 
principle. For now you have pick, find, select, and all of the conditionals.

In R3 you add the ordinals (first, second, ...) and the map! type 
to that collection.

Cool , in SQL et al , null can be useful for finding where say a 
JOIN has no corresponding RIGHT side.

Hi all, is there an EASY way of changing this :-

	[ fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4
	  fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 ]
into this

	[ [fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4]
	  [ fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 ] ]

Thanks
Steve

If you are happy to copy the data to a new structure....

    newblock: copy []

    foreach [a b c d][ fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 ] [
      append/only newblock reduce [a b c d]
      ]

Thanks Sunanda, it's cos some of the data (lists) I pick up may be 
in form one or form two. But either may be quite large lists - obiously 
if it's in memory doubling it may be a problem!

if you are willing to, it may be possible to manipulate the block 
itself, but I think it's slower. otherwise make sure you allocate 
the necessary space for newblock. that makes garbage collection easier 
for REBOL.

newblock: make block! divide length? oldblock 4

is that faster than Sunandas foreach?

4 being the number of elements in each row ( So that must be known!) 
If you don't know how many elements (columns) could that be achieved 
using the newl-line?  ?

sorry new-line?

it's a supplement to sunanda's example. if you use newblock: copy 
[] you are correctly creating a new block, but every time you then 
append to that block, REBOL has to spend a little time allocating 
new space for the block as it grows. if you preallocate space with 
say:

newblock: make block! 10000


REBOL won't have to do that. This means that when REBOL must garbage 
collect or when you use 'recycle, it knows that there's one big block 
there that it can just remove. Easier for REBOL. Having more blocks 
inside that block makes the case a bit more complex, but since each 
block inside is only created and manipulated once, there may not 
be an issue.

my way was just a simple way of allocating exactly the space you 
need. if you can get the length of the input block and the number 
of items you want to split it in, then you can correctly determine 
the necessary length of the output block.

How fast is REBOL in processing this (I know it's processor/memory 
dependent) but could you manage say 100,000 rows ?

in REBOL it's generally a good idea to reuse blocks, if you are doing 
buffers. make your buffer global:

buffer: make binary! 4096  ; 4 kb buffer

loop [
  insert buffer *some stuff that needs to be buffered*

  *use buffer for something*

  clear buffer
]

100000 is easy

but... it's a good idea to study some things here about which loop 
functions are faster than others.

great - I don't think anything I would pull thru would contain more 
than 100,000  rows x 15 cols

Thanks Henrik.....For large blocks, you can help REBOL's memory managemeny 
by pre-allocating the needed space. So, applying Henrik's optimisation:

    oldblock: copy [ fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 fld1 fld2 fld3 fld4 ]
    newblock: make block! (length? oldblock) / 4

    foreach [a b c d] oldblock [
       append/only newblock reduce [a b c d]
      ]

some functions can give simple code, but are slower, because they 
are mezzanines based on other loops.

in sunanda's example, APPEND is actually a mezzanine. if you wanted 
a tiny speed up, INSERT/ONLY TAIL is a little faster than APPEND/ONLY

You could do an easy timing test by creating some test data:
    loop 1000000 [append oldblock random/secure "abcdefghijklm"]

....My computer took about a second to reformat the test data. Fast 
enough?

Brilliant, thanks Sunanda. you guys answer questiions faster than 
I can ask them ;-)

you can explore this yourself by studying the source for various 
loop functions.


 http://www.hmkdesign.dk/rebol/files/385cc7420409fa08f768a537a52ce4d8-76.html

That blog post might be of help.

be aware that pretty code is not always fast, even in REBOL. :-)

Thanks Henrik for the append vs insert optimization too!

Thanks Henrik, I was a bit confused by looking thru the core and 
dictionary functions - the examples don't really show advantages/disadvantages 
for real world apps

one thing that amazes me is that PARSE is very fast, despite being 
one of the most complicated functions to understand in REBOL. if 
you learn how to use it, it can perform some quite amazing tasks.

and once again, we'll be turning this upside down for REBOL3. :-) 
there are a lot of new functions to aid in the creation and manipulation 
of blocks with simple code that also performs very well.

Yes I've only used it for my licence creator applet - I't's one of 
the core items I need to master. At the moment I'm trying to get 
blocks/series to fit into recursions I have created in legacy apps

I don't mind re-learning these for R3, I thnk I need to learn R2 
to master R3

sorry this wireless keyboard has a stutter ;-)

So the immediate thing I've picked up is as you use append Rebol 
has to re-form the block on each iteration! Is that right?

generally about speed: I rarely worry about REBOL/Core speed. I made 
a database once that was mainly about in memory block manipulation 
in REBOL. On an old 500 Mhz Celeron laptop, I couldn't saturate it, 
when throwing queries at it from 3 fast PCs over a 100 MBit LAN. 
I think it was about 100-1000 times faster than a MySQL database, 
but of course with the price that it's in-memory and that it had 
very few features.

be careful about wording, as 'reform is a function in REBOL. :-) 
all it has to do, is allocate more space. Just imagine a cramped 
desk and you want to put some things on the desk. Which is faster? 
Is it to remove one item at a time from the desk to place a new one 
there, or just swipe the desk clean in one go in order to free all 
desk space immediately?

The processing seem's amazing compared to say one of my c# apps.

yes, and they say interpreted languages are slow, right? :-)

Yep sorry Henrik, I meant allocate more space