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why don't we just follow Saphirion guys? They concentrate very fine rebollers, it is just that as a business entity, they implement, what they need most. But - everybody can influence it via donations imo, so I did, sent few dollars to R3 droid port, and R3 GUI on droid.
in fact, it is even worse - GUI is done for quite some time, yet no new styles/skins appear, so nothing to complain here about - anyone of us can contribute. I just somehow don't believe, that yet-another-fork will make situation any better ....
In regards to above remark, I e.g. don't understand e.g. Nick requesting R2 being released, as R3 GUI is superior to R2, we just somehow magically don't start using it, dunno why.
What imo R3 misses is some built-in protocols, databases. OTOH Cyphre created TLS scheme .....
Well, and if no leadership for some fork comes up - here comes the Red ;-)
Rebol 3 Bazaar is Saphirion Rebol 3, at the moment. Saphirion wanted to go on GitHub, but htey ahve not time to do it. Now everybody can contribute and speed up Rebol 3 devolpment.
Because Rebol 3 stopped a month ago...
well then, I consider Saphirion's work being a de-facto standard nowadays, unless Carl reappears actively reviewing new stuff ...
Be realistic, Rebol could be 1000 times better than Livecode or Java; but is wasn't supported. Rebol 3 closed source stopped in 2011, Rebol 3 open source stopped a moth ago. If ReBol 3 Bazaar will not take off, start to buy the tombstone for Rebol.
Red is total another type of programming language, it has to be compiled.
I pushed Facebook Rebol group from 100 to 263 users now, but people is loosing interest in Rebol, I write the Rebol blog quite every day; and I'll dedicate my time also to Rebol Bazaar. I don't know why Rebol software is orphan and I don't care. I'll try to rise again it in the Olympus of best software (since nobody else do it), if you are with me you are welcome. I have no enemies, just friends.
MaxV: you might have missed the announce, but Red has an interpreter and a console since new year.
You might want to check this: http://static.red-lang.org/console-pro.png
Max you have to understand that most users already use Altme, and Stack overflow these days. rebol.org and Github are there for source sharing. R3 is not dying, its not Carl's job of moving it forward. R3 is now on Android, for example, this wasn't available just a month ago.
In my humble opinion there is an immense wall between users and developers, that is not the open source way. Altme is inaccessible to most user, nobody know it and the procedure to register is hidden somewhere and too complicated; here we have no more than 50 readers. Rebol.com site seems a dead site. Curecode seems a secret society (it's impossible to reach if don't know the correct link, who is working on it?). Stack overflow is the only way at the moment users have to discover somenthing about Rebol, but it's not the appropriate site. We cold multiply 1000 times users with a good support. Rebol must be more partecipative, but I don't see around anything about it. Everytime I write a post about Rebol, I feel like an archaeologist with a dead language. Searching information about Rebol is a huge quest. What did you do for Rebol? What can you do now for Rebol? Do you want to build an open working infrastructure or you want remain sat on your chair looking Rebol going in ruin? We have finally Rebol and Rebol VID source working, now we have to attract developers from all around the world. I''m not starting a new Rebol, just making attractive for normal people, the bones and muscles of every good open source project.
Regarding the "portal", I fear I have to agree with sqlab so far. The approach of just wholesale copying in or duplicating information from other primary sources strikes me as particularly bad. For example: http://rebol.informe.com/wiki/view/REBOL_2_Guide This just copies over the "REBOL Programming" wikibook: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/REBOL_Programming However, it does so, without _any_ attribution at all, giving people no hint where as to the primary source for that information. Second, it is a one-off import which is not being kept up to date, so really just muddies the information out there. For example, Ladislav recently updated the "mold" article , but where is that reflected in the rip-off?  http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/REBOL_Programming/mold I strongly suggest that this wholesale importing of other information is stopped or maybe even undone. Otherwise you'll just create more stale information. Just a link to to the primary sources really is the better approach. If you want this site to take off, create _new_ information; this way, you'll actually _add_ value.
Sorry if that is harsh, but this approach of just blindly copying stuff around seems to hit a nerve (for me).
Well to me it looks like there is just way too much happening to follow it all. Then one github repository for R3 is enough unless you really need another one to test and fool around with completely. The source being on Github is nice because I now have a copy, but it hinders me to contribute because I do not have the time nor the will to find out how to contribute changes, and when I tried I found it puzzling enough, so I decided it is too much trouble for now and to only look at the sources and not to contribute. (This goes for the Red github situation as well).
Max, no need, we're already on it. For someone making a community site, you seem to have done so by fiat without consulting the community first.
(That was to MaxV, btw, not Maxim.)
transmitted by HostileFork - "Good points, all of them. Let us discuss r3bazaar... on SO chat.
No need. We've already been dealing with this issue on SO chat, and in the other communication venues where the relevant developers are, for the last week, and we already have a plan. Like I said, we're already on it.
While I'm against blind copying, I think MaxV is simply trying to build some momentum. He's been very active, and I appreciate all his past efforts. If we open a dialog, we'll either come together or disagree in a friendly manner. :-) As much as I believe in talking first, sometimes that stalls efforts as well. Now at least we have something to look at and use for further discussion. And while I don't like having too many channels, and use only a few consistently, his new portal looks nice and incorporates a lot of functionality already.
Pekr, I suggested R2 because there is an enormous pile of useful code, and productive applications, that will likely never get ported to R3. R3 will be great for developing new apps, but it's a darn shame to throw away all the work that's come before.
MaxV, I also agree that your involvement has been positive, and I always enjoy reading your posts :) I also agree that it's great to offer more open channels of communication, but I think Andreas is 100% correct - links are preferrable to copied content. Setting up a portal could certainly be helpful for anyone who prefers using that interface, but pointing to original content is critical. The more sites that pop up and point to other important sources, the more easily people will be able to find what they need, no matter how they find their way into the community. Helping to organize and guide people to the right places is helpful, but copying has all the problems Andreas pointed out.
sqlab, the fact that the "average Rebol user is just to much individualist to join" has always been a curiosity to me.
This community seems to need strong leadership and techical support by an established entity which replaces Carl. Saphirion and Doc both appear to be in potentially good positions to achieve that role. They're capable and willing to provide new REBOL tools to the community. Perhaps they'll be able to fund the development of those tools with commercial work they expect to see down the road, but I have no idea how strong their business models are. Donations are helpful, but somehow supporting a business model that encourages leadership efforts, should be an important goal for this community. It seems necessary that REBOL achieve some sort of real foot hold - a clear reason for use - in industry, education, etc. For my own purposes, I'd like to implement the "business programming for non-programmers" idea as a course at business schools (not CS departments). To me, that's REBOL's most relevant potential mainstream use. How else could the REBOL ecosystem potentially grow in a way that encourages others to become involved in supporting REBOL, and in ways that financially sustain new leadership? I'd love to see that topic discussed in more detail. I don't think community growth will happen without a business plan that addresses the problem.
Yup. Except for the "business plan" part. There will be community participants who have business plans, but we need to support business competition between community members. As a community though, we need a development plan for Rebol and also for the community, but not necessarily a business plan since the community is not itself a business.
Unless you mean a plan for business adoption :)
Perhaps a business plan for a foundation, the purpose of which is to enable business adoption :)
There were some fleeting comments about a foundation. Has there been any organized discussion about it?
I don't know the answer about what's best, just rustling the bushes a bit.
We haven't needed one yet. Foundations tend to do better when they're for well-established projects, since otherwise they don't tend to get enough funding to cover even their own overhead. So the first part of a foundation-building plan would be to grow the community to the point where a foundation would be a good idea :)
As an observer of open source projects since there were open scource projects, I see some challenges that no open source community that in my opinion have yet to be overcome, outside a limited vertical or academic market. 1. Self-interest: Each person views the code as their own opportunity to promote their own goals. Since it costs nothing except time and effort and there is no remuneration, people develop forks that suit themselves. When the need for them disappears, the support for them vanishes. Result: Whether a company owns the source or a company makes money with the source you are always dependent upon somebody who has more at stake than you do. Right now that means Sapphirion. 2. Money: Even with open source projects it takes money to push them forward. If a company can make money they will pay for it themselves. if somebody else needs the port or feature, they donate if there are enough people interested. So you either pay a company or pay into a project, either way you pay. 3. Leadership: Usually a company ends up taking leadership because the original leaders begin to tire of the constant promotion and hard work.
I haven't seen a community able to sustain an open source effort for very long before it 1) forks into dozens of splinters 2) Loses or lacks leadership (which includes people willing to follow). 3) or is taken up by a company and exploited for its own purposes.
The solution to this would a very radical idea, one that isn't easy for a group of people to do. Think of others as more important than themselves. In this case I believe that R3 could become a movement against technology squeezing people into its own mold. It could become technology that makes us smarter and better, rather than less adequate and worse. It could become an enabling technology, but only if its people are devoted to enabling other people.
First enable programmers, then teachers, business people, artists. Donald Norman does a nice job of articulating this vision in "Things that Make us Smart." Human centered technology could become the clarion call of R3.
You'd have to use gen technology to change human nature
However, the new humans would morph back into the old ones in some generations
Does gen technology = nature, human or otherwise?
NickA, as Rebol is not mainstream, a programmer has to be independent or at least to think that. Otherwise he would not be keen enough, to use such an exotic language. At least I think that.
exotic is probably the wrong term, maybe unknown
exotic is the good word. especially since it goes against the mainstream trend of many things.
It's not everyones language, although it sounds like used by many.)
The only place I've seen othermindedness happen has been inside companies with strong leaders. The results are always powerful. The Humana Healthcare organization went from 4 rural hospitals to the second largest HMO in America that way. Waste Management also became the largest waste disposal company in America that way. There is one part of Oracle that is experiencing a 4 fold increase in sales as a result of an othermined culture establish by the general manager of that department. NewTek was another company that started out that way. It can be done, but I've never seen it in an open source community.
Never forget the talk I heard by Joe Green the former CEO of Humana. He showed us an organizational chart written upside down with his name at the top. He flipped over the chart which put himself at the bottom with the lettering now right side up. He said, "When I realized that my job was to love the four people above me in the chart, the organization really took off."
Did they do away with self-interest and money?
Of course not, Kaj!