World: r3wp

But I lost some messages on one of the computers, i use to access 
AltMe. 

And I don't mean the common bug, that I do net get the recent messages.

I think we are waiting for Carl to update the DNS records for AltME.

However, if someone else wants to take over this Server, I think 
we are open to that.

Kaj, does altme server run under syallable :)  ?

Need to know some things, if I am to try the server on Linode:


- RAM requirements for server with the current REBOL3 world. My server 
has 384 MB RAM and is already doing other stuff.
- Can I run headless?

- Can I make a copy of this world which people can connect to for 
testing? Just to minimize downtime in case it won't work.

We need Carl to speak up here.

I think that last time Carl told that this world is already too big 
and the best way would be to setup a new one.

I don't see how that would help on a periodic networking problem, 
but... oh well.

It would help that your linode server does not need to handle sync 
of all files for all users. At least.

I guess we should observe whether the problem is worse when many 
users are connected and whether it's self-amplifying, when users 
try to re-connect all the time when the problem is there.

AFAIK, it was a network problem, not a software problem, so the size 
of the world has nothing to do with it.

when the server is instable, I can confirm its not really better 
even when we are alone in the world.  I checked the last time and 
was the only one here a few times and it was as bad as when some 
of you appeared.

I still wonder if there is any log of possible intrusions.

strange - started up altme and ms anti virus reported a trojan virus

file:C:\Altme\worlds\rebol3\chat\380.set->(SCRIPT0001)

must be a false warning

JS ?

There was discussion about a JS exploit a while ago. It could be 
in that file.

6-May-2008, someone posted a bunch of Javascript asking about SQL 
injection code, could that be it?

possibly - that was a suprise

Carl has been finally getting around to attending to this world, 
things should start working again....

I've moved to my new windows 7 laptop and have setup Altme in it's 
own directory at c:\altme

now if I don't run as admin, it says it can't write to the state 
file.

sounds as annoying as vista

Fix the permissions of the directory. AltME (like many REBOL programs) 
doesn't act like a proper Windows app, it acts like a portable app. 
It doesn't put its files in the right place for an installed Windows 
app. Vista and 7 are right to complain.

Wouldn't it be "more right" if Vista let the program be a portable 
application, and in fact supported this "correct" way of doing things?

Chrome works like AltME and works just fine with the Windows 2000 
security model. It does this by putting the program and its files 
in the local settings directory, then checking it before running. 
MySpace IM used to do this to allow students to load the program 
onto half-locked-down computers at their schools without getting 
permission from the admins (I was one such admin, so this was annoying), 
but Chrome seems to be much less of a security hole. AltME could 
quite easily work the same way.

The real problem is that no program in some directory under the Program 
Files directory should be putting its data files (or allowing writing) 
to the same directory as the program files. That's a Win9x thing, 
and insecure. If programs that are running outside of the system 
directories run with less privileges, then all the better.

As it is, Win7 (and to a lesser extent Vista) do exactly that kind 
of workaround for bad programs under Program Files, redirecting their 
data files to another ProgramFiles directory under local settings. 
It's tricky, but not as tricky as trying to make the programs secure 
otherwise. However, if you put your program directory somewhere where 
it can't figure out that aliasing, the system has to assume that 
you know what you are doing and you have to act accordingly and fix 
the permissions on the directory to match what you want to do.

Of course, this is all a consequence of user-based security being 
kind of a bad idea in the first place.

Giving myself write privgs on the altme directory has fixed the issue. 
 Tiresome this.  What exactly is the security problem with storing 
data with programs?

the problem is that windows sucks; the "don't write here" is ms's 
work around that.

The real problem is that no program in some directory under the Program 
Files directory should be putting its data files (or allowing writing) 
to the same directory as the program files.


I don't agree with this.  In fact, I vote that we have sandboxes 
(that are also folders), and a company can do what ever they want 
in their own sandbox.

You get into problems when companies dictate that pre-installed apps 
are on a read only partition, or there is a disk quota.

to me the problem is that MS should have created a real application 
framework... actually, only Apple with OSX seems to be really close 
to this.


there should be THREE root directories and only three dirs for each 
application.  windows has dozens, which is crazy.
1. Application SOURCE data (.exe, libs, datafile, etc)
2. Application STORAGE data (game saves, defaults
3. Application Temporary data, flushed on program quit by the OS.


within Storage, you'd have application and user-based storage and 
that's it.


The os refuses to execute any file not within application source 
dir, so you have already clamped down on a lot of security issues. 
 a list of approved .exe is stored whenever you launch an application 
for the first time.


for a bit more flexibility, several application dirs could exist, 
so that you can do stuff like compile items and run them locally 
within your dev environment, but these dirs would be explicitely 
registered within the os.


on install the Application should be required to ask permission (like 
flash) in how much space will be stored within STORAGE if it exceeds 
a max default, independently of SOURCE.


The implementation of MyXxxx folders is completely horrendous, and 
should be a simple and ubiquitous form that has one entry for each 
media type, and a browser where you want to put your stuff (which 
might not be user-specific).


IIRC this was addressed in Vista, but then they went and added aliases 
to everything, which raises errors in the explorer, cause you can't 
use them.  They alias core windows directories in other languages, 
the result being that explorer and actual disk info are different! 
 this completely fucks up many applications (like rebol).


windows has a hard time "fixing" things... they always just patch 
it... its worse since they have a hard time starting with any good 
implementation of anything to begin with.

I agree with Maxim...


But will extend a concept, which is that there should also be a Shared 
space, for example, where a given application ALLOWs anyone (or specific 
other apps) to change the data.

From what I understand this is only a problem under Windows 7 for 
non-themed applications. Themed applications use a "virtual" location. 
(Perhaps some Windows expert can confirm this).


I guess it is unlikely that AltME will be converted to a themed application.

Reichart, i agree with you, but that doesn't work with user-based 
security. That is application-based security, something that Windows 
doesn't support. You can argue with what the security model should 
have been, but that doesn't affect what is.

PeterWood, that distinction isn't between themed applications and 
non-themed - that distinction is unrelated.

Maxim, the changes to Vista just make it work more like OS X and 
some Linux distributions. You can use similar methods to deal with 
the confusion to the ones that work on those platforms.

more like OSX? in what way?

A hidden legacy filesystem hierarchy with a user-friendly one overlaid 
on top. And the sensible one to use depends on what you want to do, 
but command line tools (like REBOL) can quite easily access both, 
if you know what you're doing.

Public posts in the REBOL3 AltME world have just topped 125,000.....
   http://www.rebol.org/aga-index.r

.....Add in non [web public] posts and the world is twice as large.


Carl replaced the original REBOL AltME world because it had grown 
too large. And that was with just 80,000 posts in total. We may be 
seeing an application of Moor's Law here :)

...Or Moor's laziness? :)

I hope AltME will support Unicode soon. I have a REBOL Chinese group, 
And I would like to move it here.

Altme is not developped anymore

i fear

Well.. Since Reb2 don't have Unicode it would be really hard to do 
Unicode support into AltME .. After version 3, who knows.. Though 
I have to say that I have no idea of the AltME status. Earlier I 
though it belongs to some 3rd party company that just Used Rebol 
as a devtool.

AltME is sort of "replaced" by R3 chat on R3, in that Carl usually 
doesn't visit this place very often and prefers R3 chat. The practical 
implementation of R3 chat is different and the outcome makes it serve 
a different purpose than AltME.

On IOS, it was the dreaded recycle bug .. here it is "internet busy 
..."  :(

Some info that I hope clarifies...

1. AltME is from Safeworlds, independent of REBOL Tech.
2. AltME is still being developed, but is waiting for R3.
3. AltME may be updated before R3. So, be sure to report bugs.

4. IOS was traded to Safeworlds. But, it may still be possible to 
get a trial release for users.

5. I use AltME quite often, but I must avoid lengthy conversations 
in order to get work done.

6. R3 Chat is a backend prototype for AltME 3.0 -- which in final 
form will be more like IOS (allow user-built reblets.)