Framework for building Rebol apps?
[1/4] from: slok00::yahoo::com at: 19-Jul-2001 9:25
Hi,
I'm new to Rebol and is still learning the basics.
Perhaps this has been covered in some other
discussions.
I'm just wondering whether there is some form of
framework when building Rebol applications.
Example. Some time back, I posted looking for "tabs"
and came across "Tabpanels" by DocKimbel.
As Rebol grows, I think we will see more examples of
such "extension" of Rebol. We might have other addons
like "Tabpanels", "Tables", "CGILib", "Rebol Expect"
etc.
As extensions grows, it will be good if we can put in
place some kind of framework of how or where we should
put 3rd party Rebol scripts/libraries etc.
Also, it will be good to think about how do we
know what Rebol will call if we have 2 extensions by
the same name. Maybe a "Table" (for HTML) and a
Table
for View is different. Is there some form of name
space
handling around.
Just a thought
YekSoon
[2/4] from: max:ordigraphe at: 19-Jul-2001 15:15
Hi,
I am interested in becoming a resource person for this kind of work.
There are currently a few threads involving getting a "map" of what's
available and who's doing what. I think it will be a funky period as
different people will try different approaches and eventually some will
work and some wont. what I ask for those of you who do spend the time
do share scripts and all, is to still use this list.
The reason I favor mailing lists over most of the advanced and arcane
systems is that the learning curve is -FLAT-. Everyone knows how to
receive mail and send some. So everyone has access to it and
it -ALWAYS- works. No downtime, (well, ok, very little downtime ;-).
As most have noticed, I am new to the list (less than two weeks). But
Have been a programmer since The TRS-80 (The very first one which looked
like a big calculator ;-)... If you don't know what a TRS-80 is... just
realize how long a time that makes it...
Anyways I like to participate and help out. I have been programming with
rebol for quite a time, so I hope I can be useful. I am working on some
files to share out (they are almost available)... probably will be
published tomorrow.
I'd like it if there was a simple web-site where people could "reserve"
certain pseudo-rights to names and words. and then the person can say
that his code is valid under that banner... so that anyone using his
libraries won't conflict with anyone else writing stuff under that
banner.
something like "REBOL Third-party approved" or whatever.
what do you guys/gals think?
I would not mind handling this "registration". I would not mind
categorizing and managing a site where approved code, manuals, trick,
FAQS, gets posted.
The only restrictions I want to impose are the following:
------------
-that your code MUST work without conflict with all other tools
previously posted (simple scripts could verify and enforce this, I'd
make these).
-that your code have an associated manual, with a name defining it as
minimal, partial or complete.
-that you supply at least one source code which demonstrates the useage
of EVERY item within your library (code itself does not need to be
documented).
-that you identify yourself clearly in the rebol header, so that the
code gets proper credit.
I'd post approved code once a week (but there could be other admins),
and anyone could download files, no membership or any of that nonsense.
I'd also send mail to anyone who wants to be notified of this or that
file, as the libraries get upgraded. I would send ONE mail a week to
this list describing what's new and what's changed.
and the most important thing, is that THIS LIST would serve as the
common grounds for any news, questions, improvement suggestions, etc,
of any kind. a simple mail with simple questions sent once a week
(along with the upgrades). The most votes wins... simple.
two mails a week is a reasonable amount of traffic I think
This way, its a peer-to-peer ring, no bullshit, everyone is equal and
everyone gets a say. Its not a little closed group of people who want
to make themselves larger than reality by choosing for every one ;-)
eventually, workgroups could emerge so that common libraries get
integrated into one library (credits always following, of course).
oh yeah and... I get the last say on everything (no, no, just joking....
;-)
anyone willing to embark?
if you think its a good idea tell me about it by giving it a name...
send ideas DIRECTLY TO ME... right now! ([max--ordigraphe--com])
Maybe someone like the excellent Rebol-forces wants to join-up? I'm all
ears. I just want things to happen.
-Max
[3/4] from: mario:cassani:icl at: 20-Jul-2001 9:10
Hi Maxim,
> I am interested in becoming a resource person for this kind of work.
> There are currently a few threads involving getting a "map" of what's
> available and who's doing what. I think it will be a funky period as
> different people will try different approaches and eventually
I was promoting a similar thing, what about joining efforts?
> The reason I favor mailing lists over most of the advanced
> and arcane
> systems is that the learning curve is -FLAT-. Everyone knows how to
> receive mail and send some. So everyone has access to it and
> it -ALWAYS- works. No downtime, (well, ok, very little downtime ;-).
Well, I am writing a mail-filter.r library that should work with
news too, but it's taking a lot of my (few) time to finish...
A good demo script for the library can be the one that handles
this mailing. ;)
> like a big calculator ;-)... If you don't know what a TRS-80
www.trs-80.com
> Anyways I like to participate and help out. I have been
> programming with
> rebol for quite a time, so I hope I can be useful. I am
> working on some
> files to share out (they are almost available)... probably will be
> published tomorrow.
You mean on the list or on your rebsite?
What about making a standard announce.r /view script (something
like the feedback.r but to send news and publish sharable scripts in
an easily and automatically processable format)?
Format can be something like (not necesarily the same):
8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------
Short: Library to handle
Author: [dmxcas--tin--it] Mario Cassani
Uploader: [Mario--Cassani--icl--com] http://thor.prohosting.com/~lavoro/
Type: mail/processing
Requires: Rebol/Core v.r.s or Rebol/View v.r.s
I made this script in order to...bla bla..., long description
on many lines..bla bla...
### BEGIN Script
REBOL [
]
halt
### END Script
### BEGIN Demo Script
REBOL [
]
halt
### END Demo Script
### BEGIN make-doc format Manual
Mail Filter Library
Can a standard format for manuals be useful?
=== Purposes
=== Status
Minimal, Partial or Complete
=== Global Variables
--- Variable 1
NAME: ...
CONTENT: ....
--- Variable 2
NAME: ...
CONTENT: ....
=== Functions
--- Function 1
NAME: ...
PARAMETERS: ...
SYNOPSYS: ...
--- Function 2
NAME: ...
PARAMETERS: ...
SYNOPSYS: ...
### END make-doc format Manual
8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------
The only limit I see is the word wrapping of long lines in the
scripts. The announce.r should make
> I'd like it if there was a simple web-site where people could
> "reserve"
> certain pseudo-rights to names and words. and then the person can say
What about my site? When I told that only a few people should have
the admin password I was not saying that others can't publish thing on
the site... If a good CGI script (in REBOL, of course) is made to submit
data (something like a wiki?) every REBOL programmer can go there and
change the list...
> that his code is valid under that banner... so that anyone using his
> libraries won't conflict with anyone else writing stuff under that
> banner.
In the manual the NAME: ... field contains the 'word so this can
be automatic. ;)
> I would not mind handling this "registration". I would not mind
> categorizing and managing a site where approved code, manuals, trick,
> FAQS, gets posted.
If a standard format similar to the above is used no site is
needed, you just need a script to download mail end extract
announcements' data.
But I think that newcomers to REBOL should find a site with
archives/summaries because they can't download the full mailing list
archive to be up to date... This is the idea behind the CRANe site,
not an "elite" place, but a place to point new REBOL programmers to
quickly startup.
> The only restrictions I want to impose are the following:
> ------------
> -that your code MUST work without conflict with all other tools
> previously posted (simple scripts could verify and enforce this, I'd
> make these).
An announce-datacollector.r? ;)
> -that your code have an associated manual, with a name defining it as
> minimal, partial or complete.
>
> -that you supply at least one source code which demonstrates
> the useage
> of EVERY item within your library (code itself does not need to be
> documented).
The format above can handle (expects) these two things...
> -that you identify yourself clearly in the rebol header, so that the
> code gets proper credit.
It's up to submitters...
> I'd post approved code once a week (but there could be
> other admins),
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> file, as the libraries get upgraded. I would send ONE mail a week to
> this list describing what's new and what's changed.
This sounds familiar... Admins for (public) site, weekly
notification... The notification can be sent to this list and not to
each one is asking.
> and the most important thing, is that THIS LIST would serve as the
> common grounds for any news, questions, improvement suggestions, etc,
> of any kind. a simple mail with simple questions sent once a week
> (along with the upgrades). The most votes wins... simple.
Two mails are. But what about the votes? Should think about this.
>This way, its a peer-to-peer ring, no bullshit, everyone is equal and
>everyone gets a say. Its not a little closed group of people who want
>to make themselves larger than reality by choosing for every one ;-)
It looks like you think I wanted to make such a site, maybe my
explanation was not good and was misunderstood. My goals are the same
as yours.
> anyone willing to embark?
Me, of course!
> if you think its a good idea tell me about it by giving it a name...
What do you mean with "giving it a name"?
> send ideas DIRECTLY TO ME... right now! ([max--ordigraphe--com])
I'm sending a copy to the list too... no elite means also this.
Zaijian
Mario
[4/4] from: max:ordigraphe at: 20-Jul-2001 12:02
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cassani Mario
> Subject: [REBOL] Re: Framework for building Rebol apps?
> I was promoting a similar thing, what about joining efforts?
SURE! :-)
> Well, I am writing a mail-filter.r library that should work with
> news too, but it's taking a lot of my (few) time to finish...
> A good demo script for the library can be the one that handles
> this mailing. ;)
Yep! What I'd do is a parser which extracts data from the mail or a cgi
form. Any missing information is then asked for by the script. It asks
by sending back a mail to the submitter.
> > files to share out (they are almost available)... probably will be
> > published tomorrow.
> You mean on the list or on your rebsite?
yep. published on my rebsite with a mail sent with a link to reb/web
site for the actual downloads.
> What about making a standard announce.r /view script (something
> like the feedback.r but to send news and publish sharable scripts in
> an easily and automatically processable format)?
it could be done, but I'd also offer a cgi-form on a web-site... this
way the person does not need to setup anything, just browse to the site
and enter the data...
I want to cater to the advanced AND to the newcommers!
what do members of this mailing-list prefer?
> Format can be something like (not necesarily the same):
> 8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> on many lines..bla bla...
> ### BEGIN Script
[...]
> ### END SCRIPT
that's ok, I'd just replace Short: by Name: and add a field to identify
the manual's completeness, so that its identified clearly on the site.
usually, better manuals will provide better popularity
> The only limit I see is the word wrapping of long lines in the
> scripts.
Don't the receiving applications create the wrapping? I remember
parsing mail files and having long lines... anyone correct me if I'm
wrong...
well, if there is indeed a problem (after implementation and testing)
the sender of the data (wether a cgi-form or submit.r script) should
ensure a proper way of encoding the files, in order to make them fail
safe.
> > I'd like it if there was a simple web-site where people could
> > "reserve"
> > certain pseudo-rights to names and words.
>
> What about my site?
do you have a method to collect and display this data already
functional?
> If a good CGI script (in REBOL, of course) is made to submit
> data (something like a wiki?) every REBOL programmer can go there and
> change the list...
That's what I meant. a Form CGI-tool. I already have a system which
handles any number of form fields and querries the user until the
required fields are filled up. I'd just have to make it a little bit
more generic or make a version for this site specifically.
> > that his code is valid under that banner... so that anyone using his
> > libraries won't conflict with anyone else writing stuff under that
> > banner.
>
> In the manual the NAME: ... field contains the 'word so this can
> be automatic. ;)
I don't know, I'd rather it be a distinct field in the code submissal or
make name registration a completely separate area on the site. In a
sense, this name almost becomes a user-name... it must be pre-fixed or
post-fixed to any object, function or variable used globally.
I'd impose a format to this naming so that things dont get out of hand
(I'd say a three to five letter acronym a nice compromise)
When code is submitted, The following things would be done:
-A copy sent to the admin(s), who proof the files are not conflictual
(with other libraries) and no unauthorized shit happens.
-A linking of the file to that user's reserved name if he already has
one.
-A verification to attempt to link this file with any existing file
(thus creating an upgrade "event").
> > I would not mind handling this "registration". I would not mind
> > categorizing and managing a site where approved code,
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> needed, you just need a script to download mail end extract
> announcements' data.
yes.
Do you have free mail address which can be poped? I am changing jobs in
a short while and might not have unlimited to a pop server acces at that
time. (I am currently mail admin so its not an issue right now, for
doing my tests).
> But I think that newcomers to REBOL should find a site with
> archives/summaries because they can't download the full mailing list
> archive to be up to date...
And even if there were an archive its tedious and boring to browse
through. And I want the site to be mirrored on the Reb, so that
experienced users need only lookup the latest ".info" file to see what's
changed this week or this month.
> This is the idea behind the CRANe site,
> not an "elite" place, but a place to point new REBOL programmers to
> quickly startup.
Actually I was suspecting that I'd hear that line about CRANe :-)
I didn't mean to point to any project in particular (living or dead ;-),
just the concept.
> > The only restrictions I want to impose are the following:
> > ------------
> > -that your code MUST work without conflict with all other tools
> > previously posted (simple scripts could verify and enforce this, I'd
> > make these).
>
> An announce-datacollector.r? ;)
an prove-cleanliness.r script ;-) which compares ALL other words used
so far. The script should also alert those words which aren't pre or
post fixed with the person's reserved word.
> > I'd post approved code once a week (but there could be
> > other admins),
The actual mailing-list post would not contain the code. I don't want
to embarass people on this list with a several hundred line mail and all
of that. (cause I wouldn't like receiving it myself).
just a simple and brief letter to the comunity explaining what has
changed what's, new what's removed with links to each of these changes.
> > this list describing what's new and what's changed.
>
> This sounds familiar... Admins for (public) site, weekly
The site IS private (in the sense that we're doing the work, making sure
nothing goes queer), but is managed by public opinion.
> > and the most important thing, is that THIS LIST would serve as the
> > common grounds for any news, questions, improvement
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> Two mails are. But what about the votes? Should think
> about this.
The votes are sent privately to the site's address, compiled, and then
the results are announced in the next weekly posting. Lobying is kept
to a minimum and the vote is private... true democracy... no?
> >This way, its a peer-to-peer ring, no bullshit, everyone is equal and
> >everyone gets a say. Its not a little closed group of
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> explanation was not good and was misunderstood. My goals are the same
> as yours.
No, not reacting to anything sent or said before, just implying that my
efforts (along with anyone in the team I join, of course) isn't going
down that path.
> What do you mean with "giving it a name"?
What is the branding we give to the collection of libraries assembled
under this effort?
Free-booters
ropen group
rebolection
reboltools
rebolibs
fREBwork
rebol public framework
RUG - Rebol User Group
PRPG - public Rebol Propgrammer's g
PRL - Public Rebol Libraries (this is a joke... btw ...read it quickly)
SRI - Shared Rebol Initiative
FORT - Free Open Rebol Tools
etc.?
any name like this, nothing too flashy, descriptive.
Or it could also be a nondescript code name:
medusa
draco
live metal
> > send ideas DIRECTLY TO ME... right now! ([max--ordigraphe--com])
>
> I'm sending a copy to the list too... no elite means also this.
Yep that's what I want ... discussion! I just dont want to litter the
mails of everyone, just for this last querry!?
Thanks for the interest, I'll respond to any inquiry this group has
about this project.
Mario, lets join and see if we can help each other out. If we agree on
most things and can complement the other's work, then its a done deal.
I just need to know if you really have the energy and time to devote to
the project. what is it exactly, that you'd be willing to do? Admin,
create scripts, handle cgi, etc, etc. For my part, I have a good suite
of tools to handle the web aspect, being a webmaster myself.
I am going to start concrete work on this, next week for sure.
-Max
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