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Fw: REBOL/View/Pro licensing

 [1/14] from: ptretter::charter::net at: 14-Sep-2001 14:30


Some licensing clarification for you developers. I responded to Cindy expressing my dissatisfaction with the current licensing model in favor of ENCAP for the same price. I had already bought a personal edition of /Pro and paid the extra $99 for commercial distribution only to learn that if I create a "killer app" that I have to tell the buyer that they must go to RT's website and purchase /Pro. What does that mean? It means the following: I must sell my products at a lower price to remain competitive. I must inconvience buyers by directing them to purchase /Pro for unlocking the /Pro features of my scripts in addition to purchasing my script. What would be the fix - just provide ENCAP to those people purchasing commercial licenses. Its simple, I don't think I will get a good answer for why that isn't the case. I would rather pass the cost of each encapsulated application that I sell onto the buyer than to inconvience them this way. Paul Tretter ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy Sassenrath To: Paul Tretter Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:02 PM Subject: Re: REBOL/View/Pro licensing Hi Paul, The REBOL/View/Pro license you bought is for your own commercial use, not a distribution license. The "key" is what unlocks the PRO features. If your application does not require any of the PRO features, you could sell you application and send a copy of View with it. If your application does require the PRO features then your customers would need a copy of View/Pro. This can be accomplished by either requiring them to purchase a copy or by signing up for our REBOL Royalty program. This program costs $499 per year which is an advance against a 10% royalty on your gross receipts less transaction fees. This allows developers to "give away" evaluation copies of their products and owe us nothing until they make sales. This program gives you a copy of our Encap product that allows you to encapsulate your scripts and REBOL/View/Pro into a single binary protecting your source code and making installation easy. The contract requires that the REBOL API not be accessible through your script. I hope this clears up any confusion. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Sincerely, Cindy Sassenrath REBOL Sales Support At 01:01 PM 9/14/01 -0500, you wrote: Hi Cindy, I have a question regarding the commercial licensing of REBOL/PRO. I purchased a commercial license today. The licensing text says that I cannot distribute the "key" with the any software. My question is how am I able to sell my software and unlock the features of my scripts to the people I distribute the software to? In other words will each buyer of my scripts be required to "purchase" REBOL/Pro? If so, then I'm not sure I needed to buy a commercial license. Please clarify the position on this as I am very confused and would like to "earn", as you do, profits from the programming I do without inconvenience to others that would like to buy my scripts by telling them they must also purchase REBOL/PRO themselves. How is that accomplished? Sincerely, Paul Tretter

 [2/14] from: ammoncooke:yah:oo at: 14-Sep-2001 15:01


Encap has a pretty good lisencing scheme if you ask me. I would try to explain it, but Cindy said it pretty good, "For Developers who want to write REBOL applications for sale we have a program that is called the REBOL Alliance. To become a member costs $499 per year which is used as an advance against a 10% royalty on products sold. The Alliance includes a higher level of support, ability to brand your product, and an encapsulation program which hides the REBOL API and your source code. " Now quoting Carl, "Joining the Alliance will help in many ways, including the source code to VID and other modules. You will also have direct access to us through REBOL/Express, and joint projects can be done." To me that is a great value, & I am running for it! Enjoy!! Ammon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Tretter" <[ptretter--charter--net]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 12:30 PM Subject: [REBOL] Fw: REBOL/View/Pro licensing
> Some licensing clarification for you developers. I responded to Cindy
expressing my dissatisfaction with the current licensing model in favor of ENCAP for the same price. I had already bought a personal edition of /Pro and paid the extra $99 for commercial distribution only to learn that if I create a "killer app" that I have to tell the buyer that they must go to RT's website and purchase /Pro. What does that mean? It means the following:
> I must sell my products at a lower price to remain competitive. > I must inconvience buyers by directing them to purchase /Pro for
unlocking the /Pro features of my scripts in addition to purchasing my script.
> What would be the fix - just provide ENCAP to those people purchasing
commercial licenses. Its simple, I don't think I will get a good answer for why that isn't the case. I would rather pass the cost of each encapsulated application that I sell onto the buyer than to inconvience them this way.
> Paul Tretter > ----- Original Message -----
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> Hi Paul, > The REBOL/View/Pro license you bought is for your own commercial use, not
a distribution license.
> The "key" is what unlocks the PRO features. If your application does not
require any of the PRO features, you could sell you application and send a copy of View with it.
> If your application does require the PRO features then your customers
would need a copy of View/Pro. This can be accomplished by either requiring them to purchase a copy or by signing up for our REBOL Royalty program. This program costs $499 per year which is an advance against a 10% royalty on your gross receipts less transaction fees. This allows developers to give away evaluation copies of their products and owe us nothing until they make sales. This program gives you a copy of our Encap product that allows you to encapsulate your scripts and REBOL/View/Pro into a single binary protecting your source code and making installation easy. The contract requires that the REBOL API not be accessible through your script.
> I hope this clears up any confusion. Please let me know if you have any
further questions.
> Sincerely, > > Cindy Sassenrath > REBOL Sales Support > > At 01:01 PM 9/14/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > I have a question regarding the commercial licensing of REBOL/PRO. I
purchased a commercial license today. The licensing text says that I cannot distribute the "key" with the any software. My question is how am I able to sell my software and unlock the features of my scripts to the people I distribute the software to? In other words will each buyer of my scripts be required to "purchase" REBOL/Pro? If so, then I'm not sure I needed to buy a commercial license. Please clarify the position on this as I am very confused and would like to "earn", as you do, profits from the programming I do without inconvenience to others that would like to buy my scripts by telling them they must also purchase REBOL/PRO themselves. How is that accomplished?

 [3/14] from: holger:rebol at: 14-Sep-2001 13:01


On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:30:40PM -0500, Paul Tretter wrote:
> What would be the fix - just provide ENCAP to those people purchasing commercial licenses. Its simple, I don't think I will get a good answer for why that isn't the case. I would rather pass the cost of each encapsulated application that I sell onto the buyer than to inconvience them this way.
Encap is what you get as part of the REBOL Royalty program Cindy described. It provides you with a commercial distribution license. The commercial use license for View/Pro and other products is not related to this in any way. -- Holger Kruse [holger--rebol--com]

 [4/14] from: ptretter:charter at: 14-Sep-2001 15:16


Well Ammon, I think you described it better. My problem is I already was paid $49 and then $99. If that went towards the Royaly program then I might do it, but right now I'm just baffled as I didn't know I had those options before. I'll wait, as right now I'm just dissatisfied. Thanks for the info. Paul Tretter

 [5/14] from: ammoncooke::yahoo at: 14-Sep-2001 15:32


I didn't know about the royalty program until just a couple weeks ago... I don't know how long ago you paid for you products, but the chances are that the royalty program isn't perfected far enough to turn loose on the general public. Enjoy!! Ammon

 [6/14] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 14-Sep-2001 23:32


Hello Holger! On 14-Set-01, you wrote: HK> Encap is what you get as part of the REBOL Royalty program HK> Cindy described. It provides you with a commercial Is it possible to buy Encap without having to pay royalties? (I.e. I pay once and for all.) Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/

 [7/14] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 14-Sep-2001 23:37


Hello Ammon! On 15-Set-01, you wrote: AC> Encap has a pretty good lisencing scheme if you ask me. I As long as you don't have a "boss" that tells you that VisualBasic costs much less than that. Should I program in VB, I would change my job. Regards, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli <[giesse--writeme--com]> - Amigan - REBOL programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/

 [8/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Sep-2001 14:16


----- Original Message ----- From: "Ammon Cooke" <[ammoncooke--yahoo--com]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:01 AM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Fw: REBOL/View/Pro licensing
> Encap has a pretty good lisencing scheme if you ask me. I would try to > explain it, but Cindy said it pretty good, > > "For Developers who want to write REBOL applications for sale we have
a
> program that is called the REBOL Alliance. To become a member costs $499 > per year which is used as an advance against a 10% royalty on products
sold.
> The Alliance includes a higher level of support, ability to brand your > product, and an encapsulation program which hides the REBOL API and your > source code. " > > Now quoting Carl, > > "Joining the Alliance will help in many ways, including the source
code
> to VID and other modules. You will also have direct access to us through > REBOL/Express, and joint projects can be done."
Oh well, joining alliance has some advantages, but 499 USD per year? You can buy QNX dev. seat starting from 500 USD, adn we are talking full fledged embedded os here ... Source codes to VID? We can print them even now, no? I would VERY like to know, what does extended support mean, if RT will employ another ppl, as currently there in NO person working as feedback. We saw many dissappointing situations, where ppl were left guessing and talking on ml, when even one single reply from RT would solve the situation. I think that I am far from being only one, who never got reply from feedback or something like that. So my question is - what are we going to get for those 500USD, if my company, paying 700 USD for two /Commands, has not get single reply to fastcgi doc bug? ;-) And yes, it is serious doubt on my and others side, as RT will hopefully grow, companies will buy Express etc. Can 5 RT programmers handle all of that? I would like to hear clear statement here. Now: 1) letting customer to buy rebol products - it's applicable for big companies, but not small developers, as many of use are. Customers care of final solution, I can't imagine someone telling customer - hey, to run my scripts, go and buy Rebol first - or am I missing something here? 2) Royalties - maybe more acceptable, but it reminds me of so much hated Amiga Inc.'s licensing model .... So, in regards to 1) and 2) - is there any way to buy RT development package (e.g. Rebol/Command/View) for some concrete price (final price), and being able to distribute encapsultated .exes? What is that price, and how is multiplatform model adressed? I think that many ppl here will be interested in Rebol as just another tool to VB, Delphi, all of them being able to produce roylty FREE, executable code, in whatever amount of sold applications. If RT will not adress similar model - we are doomed ... Thanks, -pekr-

 [9/14] from: ptretter:charter at: 15-Sep-2001 10:07


I agree. I just want ENCAP and would be happy! However, the /Pro licensing in my opinion is almost useless. Paul Tretter

 [10/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 15-Sep-2001 18:47


----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Tretter" <[ptretter--charter--net]> To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: [REBOL] Re: Fw: REBOL/View/Pro licensing
> I agree. I just want ENCAP and would be happy! However, the /Pro
licensing
> in my opinion is almost useless.
I think, that most ppl here will feel the same. Now we have to deal with RT ability to hear our voices. As you can see, RT's website is silently being updated on several places: http://www.rebol.com/company.html http://www.rebol.com/reblets.html http://www.rebol.com/security.html http://www.rebol.com/products.html As you can see, Rebol products page is new too. Express reference page contained some little bit updated info as of August 23. But alarm my friends - soud capabilities are once again mentioned in regard to View/Pro product. So - the question is - is it RT's decision to let it be that way, or new product page is quick hack, so noone properly looked at its content? Well, later on - I got to following page, so it seems sound is really going to be freed? http://www.rebol.com/prod-view.html (btw: what is "block translator", and "anonymous functions (lambda)"? :-) RT's product policy, licensing schemes change so often, that many of us probably feel unstable about Rebol. RT now has new marketing manager in charge - Scot M. Sutherland, so let's hope we will get licensing schemes suitable for all of us. Currently however, the only one "channel" to rebol programmers, users, is this ml. While RT claims they listen to us, I can bet they will get things out without asking us for our opinions, so let's just hope we will not see folks here leave their rebol related projects, because of unsuitable licensing terms ... -pekr-

 [11/14] from: ammoncooke::yahoo at: 16-Sep-2001 13:35


<snip...>
> Oh well, joining alliance has some advantages, but 499 USD per year? You
can
> buy QNX dev. seat starting from 500 USD, adn we are talking full fledged > embedded os here ... Source codes to VID? We can print them even now, no?
I
> would VERY like to know, what does extended support mean,
When I find out, I will let you know. ;))
> if RT will employ > another ppl, as currently there in NO person working as feedback. We saw > many dissappointing situations, where ppl were left guessing and talking
on
> ml, when even one single reply from RT would solve the situation. I think > that I am far from being only one, who never got reply from feedback or > something like that. So my question is - what are we going to get for
those
> 500USD, if my company, paying 700 USD for two /Commands, has not get
single
> reply to fastcgi doc bug? ;-) >
Sounds like a pretty roten deal. I never heard about that one.
> And yes, it is serious doubt on my and others side, as RT will hopefully > grow, companies will buy Express etc. Can 5 RT programmers handle all of > that? I would like to hear clear statement here. >
No, they cannot, as we all well know. It seems to me that if IOS really does what they say it does, (& I expect it does) They could hire any one of you gurus now on the list to be THE fedback person, without you moving to another location. Of course, none of us really know what goes on behind the scenes, or what RT is thinking as far as hiring someone. From the resumes of the current RT crew it appears that they will only hire the best. ;)) Long live RT!!
> Now: > > 1) letting customer to buy rebol products - it's applicable for big > companies, but not small developers, as many of use are. Customers care of > final solution, I can't imagine someone telling customer - hey, to run my > scripts, go and buy Rebol first - or am I missing something here?
Well, if you *think* you might be missing something, send an email to [cindy--rebol--com] she seems very glad to help, & is very informative on just what is going on with lisencing.
> 2) Royalties - maybe more acceptable, but it reminds me of so much hated > Amiga Inc.'s licensing model ....
Yes, I dislike royalties too, but everyone must find an acceptable balance between bancruptcy, & happy customers. To me the royalties is much more acceptable than $1000, or more, for a decent developement environment for C/C++ or java or anything else, it gets me in for half of what it would otherwise cost. Once I was a flurishing software company I might want to be able to pay that extra money for a version of Encap that will then allow me to produce all of the exes that I want until the version of Encap that I own is too outdated to use. ;))
> So, in regards to 1) and 2) - is there any way to buy RT development
package
> (e.g. Rebol/Command/View) for some concrete price (final price), and being > able to distribute encapsultated .exes? What is that price, and how is > multiplatform model adressed? I think that many ppl here will be
interested
> in Rebol as just another tool to VB, Delphi, all of them being able to > produce roylty FREE, executable code, in whatever amount of sold > applications. If RT will not adress similar model - we are doomed ...
I probably shouldn't have done it, but I cut out one little piece of the email Cindy sent me. I don't have it right at my fingertips, or I would quote it, but basically she said we (RT) are more like Java than C/C++, Delphi, or the others so the lisencing is closer to Java. I can't verify this, I don't know how Java is lisenced. Just FYI. Enjoy!! Ammon

 [12/14] from: ptretter:charter at: 16-Sep-2001 15:30


I still think ENCAP should be released to commericially licensed users. After all, RT will be the only company selling REBOL products as long as the current marketing stradegy is in place. If ENCAP is release to those that purchase commercial licenses then you can play with the commercial pricing more and the flood gates would open. Consider how many people on this list would buy commericial licenses if they knew they would finally be able to distribute their apps for profit. How about waiving the royalities if the developer creates a RT splash screen as distro with their product - consider it Marketing. I can bet that everyone would come running to dev with REBOL. Paul Tretter

 [13/14] from: cribbsj:oakwood at: 18-Sep-2001 10:03


On Saturday 15 September 2001 08:16 am, you wrote:
> Oh well, joining alliance has some advantages, but 499 USD per year? You > can buy QNX dev. seat starting from 500 USD, adn we are talking full
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> Thanks, > -pekr-
Oh, boy. I'm getting that sinking feeling again... I've spent $400 on Rebol and also can't get support from the company. I think the fact that there is such a helpful and dedicated Rebol user community, in spite of the lack of communication, direction, and helpfulness that comes from RT, is a clear sign of how great the language is. I WANT to use Rebol for most if not all of my programming projects. But, I don't feel comfortable enough with the support structure around the language. In the past, a lot of my concerns could be explained away by saying that RT was a young company and Rebol was a young language, give it time. I don't think that excuse is going to work much longer. It's funny because I remember reading messages from Pekr a year ago and strongly agreeing with him. Here I am today, still reading messages from Pekr, and still agreeing with him. Nothing seems to have changed...and that's sad. Jamey.

 [14/14] from: tim:johnsons-web at: 19-Sep-2001 13:11


> Oh, boy. I'm getting that sinking feeling again... > > I've spent $400 on Rebol and also can't get support from the company.
Ask me why I have only licensed /core ..... and here is the answer
> I think the fact that there is such a helpful and dedicated Rebol user > community, in spite of the lack of communication, direction, and helpfulness > that comes from RT, is a clear sign of how great the language is. I WANT to > use Rebol for most if not all of my programming projects. But, I don't feel > comfortable enough with the support structure around the language.
Yep, the mailing list is rebol's best asset.
> In the past, a lot of my concerns could be explained away by saying that RT > was a young company and Rebol was a young language, give it time. I don't > think that excuse is going to work much longer.
I have no doubt that RT is targeting some major users, I do hope that insures their success, but for someone to put out as much money as Jamey has deserves a direct answer from RT
> It's funny because I remember reading messages from Pekr a year ago and > strongly agreeing with him. Here I am today, still reading messages from > Pekr, and still agreeing with him. Nothing seems to have changed...and > that's sad.
I have yet to see a clear message from RT on licensing, etc. The one thing I do agree with Larry Wall on is that RT's policies are murky.
> Jamey. k > To unsubscribe from this list, please send an email to > [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the > subject, without the quotes.
-- Tim Johnson <[tim--johnsons-web--com]> http://www.johnsons-web.com

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