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[REBOL] Re: Opening a new blog about Rebol?

From: petr:krenzelok:seznam:cz at: 16-Nov-2007 8:35

Hello Alessandro, I would like to have few comments to your remarks: Alessandro Manotti napsal(a):
> Yes Henrik, I agree with you. > Some popular languages have A LOT OF sites dedicated, but everyday many > others are created. > I think the only problem regarding Rebol popularity is: > 1) it is not open source >
Open source holy grail. Well, that is old topic, and we came thru various phases. My current conclusion is, that open sourcing whole REBOL would NOT automatically mean any rise in its popularity. I think that each new thing has its momentum. And REBOL momentum is gone. It was one somewhere in 2001 - 2003. Orca, REBOL clone is good example - it is open sourced, it is Core clone, yet it did not gain any special attraction. But - some ppl preach to open-source as a holy grail. I have one friend, who uses REBOL but constantly blames it for not being open sourced. He uses also Python. So I asked him, if he EVER even looked into Python sources. The answer was what I expected - even if some problem would arise, he would NOT be able to fix it himself, having sources or not. That is some false feeling of "security". But I understand where it does come from. When RT turned into IOS (solution) company, we waited for some fixes for years to come, and noone but RT could fix them. The situation with R3 is going to be completly different, and that is what we should start to market about REBOL, as R3 is close, and R2 is nearly a history ....
> 2) Rebol Technologis (the company) does not make enough publicity, and does > not support the people that try to spread the Rebol-word. >
Yes, that was true. Sometimes we could not hear or "push" them to do some action for months. But - RT is open to ideas nowadays. You remember the material, where they are looking for a marketing guy, full time job? Remember - that person must know, who "pekr" is :-) Currently there is a "secret" group on AltME channel, whose purpose is to redefine websites. We had nearly one week of chats, to define strategy, where does REBOL want to go, etc. Slow process, but we will get there. And Carl is there of course, and marketing is one of his main tasks for overall R3 release. So don't worry, this time, we will try to make it better than with R2. We also agreed on (amongst many other things) one point - let's not hype R3 features, unless we can deliver describe product capabilities "as-is". OTOH there is a community. This thread is called "Opening a new blog", and I say - go for it, absolutly! There are already some guys doing good public work. First guys responsible for - it is not easily visible, but many features there. Then Brian Tiffin encouraging everybody to rock! :-) And finally Henrik - reading his blog you feel much better about things coming. Of course I would not like to forget about collective effort of rebolweek ... So - go for your blog.
> I asked to a friend of mine to try to use (learn) rebol. She told me (she is > a very good programmer) that she does not want to use rebol because... > > 1) on server-side there are MANY programming languages, and they are all > free (and open source), like PHP, Pyhton, Perl, Java, ASP, c#, visual > basic#, ruby, etc... So... why paying to use Rebol (since in server side, > for example, DB is a must, and one cannot use DB (odbc, oracle, etc,...) if > one does not buy command version. >
Well, I am not here to argue, but she surely would put JAVA on that list even one year ago, even when JAVA was not open source. C# is counterpart for .NET, private technology. Those who seek solutions, would find one - odbc socket server, which enables core to talk to any ODBC database. But I get her point, no need to explain it further. I just would wait, and tried to talk to her later, maybe showing her elegant few liner rebol code solution, with free R3 database access :-)
> 2) client side: it could be great, but GUI is not yet at highest level (it > is not the "best of breed"). >
It is not, but it will be. View will rock! I can guarantee you, that apart from Flash/Flex and maybe Silverlight a bit, NONE of other languages has anything close to View. Most of them link to external toolkits - SDL, Qt, Tk, GTK+, etc. The thing is, even REBOL could integrate to those, the work just was not done. But once again - we will concentrate upon our advantage - View and its browser plug-in. You should know, that one of three Ruby's main bounties few years ago was REBOL/View clone ... guys tried it, but were disappointed because of its "speed" :-) Besides that, RebGUI is pretty much decent toolkit, much better than what VID2 provides us with recently. Besides that - all of those above toolkits push their old sh*tty aproach on you - objects, objects, etc., down to user level. But - VID user is not supposed to be a good programmer. So - I hope that with VID3 we continue being mostly declarative in user level. JAVA guys were also fed-up with all that stuff, so they brought us JavaFX, and one must laugh, how it is similar to VID definition - so - so much for cool overobjected methods of nowadays.
> I think rebol really needs a lot publicity since it is really a great > language, but I think Rebol Technologies should have to "help" the people > (aka "promote rebol") to use it, with a license that best fits the current > market, considerring that their competitors are Python, PHP, M$, Ruby, Java > & JavaFX, etc... >
I should now explain strategy a bit. We have two targets here: - current world, full of other technologies. It will be a tough call, to get into the group of python, ruby, php, perl league. But there are some guys interested in further linkage of REBOL to .NET etc technologies. It will be long way to go, but infrastructure of R3 should allow this (plug-ins) - more important target is to concentrate upon what REBOL is good etc - distributes lightweight computing, using rebol services. Along with Flash/Flex there might not be other lightweight technology to fill the market. And once ppl see few nice demos in browser plug-in, see their nice declarative (readable) source code, those might come. There is always new generation, which looks for their first language, and we might attract them. We will probably not easily win you friend programmer, as you can't teach old do new things easily. Such ppl will always compare it to aproach they are used to ... Alessandro - just sit, blog, and watch the show :-) Cheers, -pekr-