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I use this to build Orca on both Syllable and Linux. If your friend 
has Ruby on Ultrix, he might even try to run Builder and let it compile 
Orca. Builder hasn't been tested yet beyond Syllable and Linux, but 
it is very portable

I would say - try to keep compatibility, while you are considering 
it now.

I'll have to try to carve out a bunch of time. I've never compiled 
anything on my Z. Sounds like fun though.

We can't let you in right now


The limit of people who can chat in this account has been reached. 
As people come and go slots may open up.

You can try again at any time.

I'm going to try Bersirc.

but R2 is already dead anyway. R3 introduces lots of new concepts, 
I wonder if Orca will try to adapt ...

What diffs? I have to make changes first. :-) When I do, I'll try 
to do it in the Subversion repository, if that's OK with you

I want to try to compile ORCA for Windows too - I tried briefly once 
in the past, but ran into problems and didn't have time to play with 
it.

if I try to start it using OPEN, it just returns to console immediately

Not really. The main way that I learn a programming platform is to 
view the source, though on platforms where the source is not available 
(as for proprietary platforms like Delphi) or too complex to be of 
use (C++ compilers, office suites, most operating systems) then I 
try to go by the docs and experimentation. If I want to contribute, 
I need to see the source. However, if I learn anything by looking 
at the source, I have to be careful about how I apply that knowledge 
elsewhere if I might violate a license by doing so. So I use Linux, 
Java, OpenOffice and GCC like they are black boxes with no sources 
available, only because they are useful enough to be worth using 
without really learning from them. I wish I could contribute to Boron, 
but it might interfere with my ability to contribute to REBOL and 
Red. And I already have a good enough semi-black box in R3.

In R2, use the catch-an-error trick

      a-function: func [][print ["i am named " get in disarm  try [0 / 
      0] 'where]]
      a-function
      i am named  a-function

Interesting. I remember some talk about it in the past, but I thought 
it was fixed, or it was a different issue. I will try tomorrow at 
my work, our share is called "L:" too :-)

GrahamC, thank you for passing this around.  I did get part way to 
a solution, as noted on your site.  Strange as it may seem, I am 
able to get to the network drives if I run a copy of REBOL that I 
download and leave with the name it came with, namely rebol-view-278-3-1. 
 The copy of REBOL that was giving me trouble was the same rebol-view-278-3-1, 
but I had renamed it to rebview to make a desktop shortcut work. 
 I had the name "rebview" in the shortcut so that I would not have 
to change the shortcut if I ever got an upgraded version of REBOL 
with a different name, like maybe rebol-view-279.  So my first problem 
with WIndows 7, REBOL, and network drives seems fixed.  


I still am not to a full solution to my Windows 7 issues.  I have 
some REBOL scripts that use the "call" command to run powershell. 
 Powershell then runs a powershell script to extract stuff from an 
EXCEL spreadsheet, which then is manipulated by the REBOL script. 
 Actually it's a bit messier.  I run a REBOL program launcher on 
the C drive which runs a REBOL script on a network drive.  The script 
on the network drive calls powershell with parameters to make powershell 
run a powershell script.  The powershell script extracts EXCEL data, 
and the calling REBOL script then makes a report of the extracted 
data.  


When I try to do this, the result from powershell is that I am not 
allowed to run scripts on that computer.  I am aware of this feature 
of powershell, and I have done what has worked for Windows XP (set-executionpolicy 
remotesigned).  I can run powershell directly, and execute scripts 
located on a network drive.  When a REBOL script that worked on XP 
calls powershell on WIndows 7, it won't go.  I am not expecting any 
help with this last issue at this time because the "call" does work 
in some cases (call/shell "notepad") (call/console/show "powershell"), 
so I still have several things to try, and if none work I am plotting 
a work-around.

I appreciate it. I will try a few attempts when running behind the 
firewall.  I want to put together a simple regression package for 
a web site using CURL and REBOL and/or RED.

Thanks I will try out soonest.

I understand the frustration...If it could be added in 2-3 days, 
I would add it now, but a complete support would require much more 
time. I will try next week to make a more accurate evaluation of 
all the additions and changes required in Red/System compiler for 
supporting float numbers.

Just spent my whole day trying to make QEMU work fully, I'm giving 
up that option for now. I will try tomorrow to get my sheeva back 
to life.

I will try your example of including both GTK and ZMQ to see if something 
is going wrong in the preprocessor.

Not on the phone yet, but I'll try that today :)

Good! I'll try to test them on my QEMU instance (at least the non-graphic 
ones).

I will give it a new try to see if I can get Gtk binding working.

Also, TRY could be implemented too, but as Red/System will be used 
from Red, I am not sure, this is necessary to support.

Do you have a value you can return when the value would be undefined, 
which would cause an error to be triggered if you try to use it in 
an expression? If so, CASE and SWITCH could have an implicit default 
case that returned such a value, and the compiler could optimize 
that out if the CASE or SWITCH return value is not used in an expression. 
That would solve the problem without resorting to nullable types.

Do you have a value you can return when the value would be undefined

 Yes, zero. It could work for all current datatypes: 0 for numbers, 
 NULL for pointers and FALSE for logic! (all are implemented using 
 0 as value internally).


...which would cause an error to be triggered if you try to use it 
in an expression?
 No.

I made an implementation for Syllable Desktop based on __cxa_atexit. 
You could try that on ARM Debian

Another thing is that when I actually try atexit, it works but ends 
with a crash

Finally I will be able to help a bit with a donation ... it's done! 
Will do better next time - New year was rough in terms of personal 
expenses - Keep up the good work everybody. For tring things a bit 
I recently ordered a Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 inches android tablet 
- I will receive it shortly and will try to test somewthing with 
it ... Don't know what for now but looking for something. For now 
I'm learning iOS programming in the mean time using Objective-C which 
I also have to learn ... A lot of new stuff going on.

Hmm, your error report looks odd indeed, I'll fire up my Syllable 
image and try to reproduce it.

Yes it is, thanks. Good stuff for 64-bit Mach-o version. The GOT 
handling seems intricated in Mach-o, I will try to avoid the methods 
that involve fixups in code.

Kaj, compatibility can't practically be measured as a whole with 
Boolean algebra. Try fuzzy logic math :)

I currently try to resolve them

Newbies info: well, from all the presentations slides, you can see 
that Red is meant to be a "general purpose" programming language, 
so making any list of possible applications would be restrictive 
and probably also premature as Red is not yet implemented.


GUI is certainly a feature to have, but I wouldn't make it part of 
the "core" language, rather handle it as library. One remark about 
future Red GUI support, there will probably be several GUI frameworks 
available (we already have GTK+, I'll add a native one, and someone 
could contribute a View clone), I'll try to put a common VID-like 
dialect on top of them, so we can quickly switch from one to another 
with minimal changes needed.

You could try to make the Coco/R syntax specific to the Red/System 
dialect or you could make at least the tokenizer general for Red 
code and implement the Red/System dialect in the parse rules. The 
latter would be a more useful approach for REBOL-like languages :)

Kaj: I gave a new try on making the GTK+ binding work on Linux/ARM, 
I was able to track the crash up to the call to `gtk-append-container` 
from `gtk-window` function. The argument values passed are:

    window: 0006C000 value: 12

which results in a Runtime Error 1: access violation (segfault)

Kaj: I gave a new try on making the GTK+ binding work on Linux/ARM, 
I was able to track the crash up to the call to `gtk-append-container` 
from `gtk-window` function. The argument values passed are:

    window: 0006C000 value: 12

which results in a Runtime Error 1: access violation (segfault)

Kaj - that is just an excuse imo. My 3 years old TV played just audio 
plus images. New versions can play namely anything. Ommiting ability 
to display images is a big design flaw imo. Because you can do it, 
or you can't do it. And VLC can't do it. You are also not right, 
that it is only a stream player - it is also a normal player, so 
it should try to display us much content as possible. Imagine you 
want to build small hw media player - will you ommit ability to display 
photos? And if not, it is clear you have to use another kludges to 
combine VLC with something else ...

FYI, I'm on trip until Saturday, so I won't be able to work much 
on Red until there. I will try anyway to release the version 0.2.4 
that includes floats support this week.

I am trying to wrap our LED screen control dll. I am not sure how 
well it is defined, as LED Studio and surrounding SW is rather weak 
and sometimes crashes, but I tried in R2, thinking I again reached 
some R2 DLL interfacing limit/bug, and am trying now in Red/System. 
Well, my first attempt to wrap some DLL functions here. So - I can 
turn-on/off led screen, even if I don't set COM port, open-sending-card, 
etc. But when I try to call functions to get e.g. brightness, contrast, 
it crashes. Those funcs are defined as e.g.:

typedef int	 (WINAPI *LSN_GETBRIGHT)();       // 0..100
typedef bool (WINAPI *LSN_SETBRIGHT)(int);
typedef int (WINAPI *LSN_GETCOLORTEMP)(int);//ScreenNumb

typedef bool (WINAPI *LSN_SETCOLORTEMP)(int,int);//ScreenNumb,nColorId 
0,1,2,3


None of above functions work for me, although above code is from 
sources to LEDSet application, where those funcitons work, those 
are just being set via dialog boxes (which I can invoke even from 
Red/System, so those are part of DLL ...

My definitions are:

      led-get-brightness: "LSN_GetBright" [
         return: [integer!]
      ]           

      led-set-brightness: "LSN_SetBright" [
         brightness [integer!]
         return: [integer!]
      ]

      led-get-color-temperature: "LSN_GetColorTemp" [
          screen-number [integer!]
          return: [integer!]
       ]                 


etc. So what coul be causing run time error? I am running on a PC, 
where I don't have internal LED screen communication card. I thought, 
that DLL functionality might check for the screen, can't find it, 
and so the app returns error, which does not fit return value - e.g. 
some error code/string, or a dialog box. But moving the exe to the 
PC where the card is, it i just the same - some functions work, I 
can see LED screen being turned on/off, but those brightness etc. 
don't ....

If it would be upon me, I would better try to stay consistent with 
the Red level - so if Red will have make!, Red/System should have 
make too, no matter how C users will aproach it. Those who will use 
Red/System, are going to use Red most probably too, so I can not 
see much reasons to differ, just because we can state - Red and Red/System 
are two different things :-) I am curious how you will keep up with 
such a differences in future, once Red layer becomes available :-)

Never mind, I just wanted to try it in Red. Good way to become familiar 
with the system trying to use it for practical purpose. I might try 
to continue investigatin COM communication, but R2 serial communication 
is also not much to be desired :-)

I think I understand what you think, but I got lost in translation 
:-) I will have to think about it few times and try to do some experiments.Thank 
for putting some time into the topic ...

Not sure if the Windows symbol tables work like I said, so you'll 
have to try

I used that, I changed it later to give it a try ...

R2 and World crash. In fact I think that those functions just try 
to write to serial port ...

I haven't try. There are their Ex variants, imo related to dialog 
boxes. In fact I haven't tried anywhere in the source call to those 
funcs. So maybe those are called from dialog boxes.

The sample code uses the Ex functions. There may be a bug in the 
simple functions, so you should try the Ex functions instead

They give no pros, and give only slowdown of a translator and also 
much greater complexity of a code (try to analyse it metaprogrammatically 
and you will understand what I tell about!) and they also give a 
redundant extra layer of complexity.

As for the return value - I was switching between R2, Red, World, 
so not sure, but ommiting return clause raised an error. Not sure 
it was Red or other environment. Will try that ...

LedCtrl.dll (from ledset-source package): 

1) How is it supposed to react if a board is not connected?


2) The DLL is a C++ program with static functions (acting as wrappers 
I guess). Have these static functions been compiled with an "extern 
C" directive? If not, there's no chance it can work with anything 
other than a compatible C++ compiler.


I think that the crash has nothing to do with Red/System, the "unknown" 
error might be caused by the DLL functions corrupting the data segment 
of the Red/System binary where the runtime error data is located. 
I will try to track it anyway, just to be sure, it's not a missing 
code in the Red/System runtime error processing routine.

just a note - solved the ledctrl problem. I noticed it generated 
system.con configuration file, but this file was just 210 bytes. 
So I copied over the larger one from real set-up, and those affected 
functions started to work. Tomorrow I will try directly with the 
ledscreen. So, although the library is said to be C++ only, it now 
works even from R2.

Logic! is stored as an integer (so 32-bit). The specification document 
is not supposed to describe the implementation (that's why I try 
to put implementation-specific details in special notes). Logic! 
uses 1/0 internally to represent true/false values, so if the imported 
function is not conforming to that convention, type casting to logic! 
won't work and a manual test would then be required.

The issue of parens: i think that no matter what the precedence rules 
are, you'll find cases where you need parens.


Now, one of the things I want to try doing in Topaz is TCO, so maybe 
parens will have less overhead in the future than in REBOL, but it's 
hard to predict whether this is possible at all in the interpreter. 
They will probably not have significant overhead if you compile.


I vote we worry about readability first though, there's always going 
to be alternatives when performance is required. (Eg. the fact that 
something is available as an op! does not mean that it is not also 
available as a regular function; like in REBOL you have both AND 
and AND~. In fact, Topaz requires that you pass a function! or native! 
to make op! - so such function version has to exists anyway.)

You can play with it at http://www.colellachiara.com/soft/topaz/try-topaz.html

I'll try to report the Topaz and Red talks here tomorrow

we also have SFD in the Singapore National Library. If u could share 
the slides by tomorrow, I would try to prepare myself for a talk 
also.

If anybody's willing to try: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/bbd615d3a9d2db678fba2997f6775604ee6ddfb9?hl=it&authuser=0#

Let's try to pick a good day in October... suggestions welcome.

I clicked, but have no webcam and don't have Google voice set up. 
I will try to prepare for the next one.

I was there training some italian :) .. I will try to come by when 
you are around .. but I don't know if I have any smart questions. 
I am just working and working, not thinking about more abstract things 
at the moment

I can try to keep the hangout open all day. James, I'd guess my late 
evening - your morning would be the best chance.

Reminder, i'll try to keep a G+ Hangout open all day tomorrow (Nov. 
3rd).

Peter, you may try to convince the others to show up earlier instead. 
;)


Endo: it was very informal, so it's hard to write a written summary 
or anything like that... though, Hangouts with extra has a note thing, 
next time we can try to use that. In any case, if you have a preferred 
date / time for next month, we can try to be there.

Oldes in Other languages group - "Hm.. i gave it a try and must say 
that Topaz is much more interesting." So, I would like to ask - is 
there any progress lately? Is Topaz already usable for real-life 
code? An what is an speed overhead in doing some app in Topaz in 
comparison to direct JS execution?

How can I try topaz in Windows? Is the try-topaz.html page the only 
method? Is there a way to write a topaz program with a text editor 
and then execute it in some way?

It appears to be standard (it's the one in IE, so if you have IE9 
it is as standard as V8). However, it doesn't seem to have one of 
the objects or functions that Topaz's bootstrap depends on. Some 
time I'll try to do a proper port. In the meanwhile, Node just requires 
installing a package on Windows (at least as of the last couple months), 
so any Cygwin-related criticism can be ignored now :)

missing object: look at the source of try-topaz.html. what you need 
is probably there.

Also, you only really need to install node etc. if you want to work 
*on* Topaz, otherwise you can use any web browser to just *use* Topaz, 
like in the try-topaz.html example.

I wonder if it makes sense to allow REBOL to call try-topaz.html, 
although it would be calling JS code? Then you could mix Topaz with 
REBOL for tests, etc.

henrik, do you mean something like? :

topaz: func [ block ][

 load read/custom http://server/try-topaz.htmlreduce ['POST  mold 
 block]
]


(where the post data above is replaced by whatever is required to 
properly fill in the form)

Maxim, certainly not, as there is no server side whatsoever to try-topaz.html

Topaz runs in any JS interpreter; I use node.js because it's convenient. 
try-topaz.html uses the JS interpreter in your browser to run Topaz.

Its too bad but http://world-lang.orgcannot be accessible from Turkey 
:( I'll try with a VPN.

I'm writing on the QA right now, and I'll try answer those questions 
too.

If you want to compare to a source interpreter, try old versions 
of TCL before it switched to bytecode interpretation. That was *slow*, 
not like REBOL at all.

If so, I'd probably try splitting immediate complex-loads into two 
insns. Then reduce insn size to 128-bit (if possible) and check the 
effect on code size.

I need to get things done, and get things rolling, so I won't answer 
any more questions at this point. You get the last countdown tomorrow, 
and the intro and being able to try it out yourself in 2 days, if 
all goes well.

Again thanks for the interest! And remember to have fun!

About range!, I haven't thought of what you describe. We can talk 
more about it, when you're able to try World.

so try to click on it using left button:) https://github.com/Geomol/World/blob/master/world_win32.exe

Just try to download .raw - it is not runnable

I have got first crash. Try code like:

for i 1 1000000 1 [print "ahoy"]

... and press ctrl c

Defining routines is on page 10 in cortex_alpha.pdf. I just updated 
that doc.

Oldes, you can try putting in the [typecheck] special attribute.

Try Google "Word".

Try Google "World" :-) Anyway - that's not important, it just came 
to my mind ...

And then it should try to guess it from the return-type?

There also is a /usr/bin/clang
Maybe I should try compile with that.

John, you may want to try -Os. Optimising for size often leads to 
best speed, too, on modern architectures due to caching efficiency. 
OS X is also compiled that way

Thanks, Kaj. I will try that.
Steeve, it was just to try another compiler.

(Well, I can just try that myself :)

Better error! implementation is high on my list. Also needed to implement 
TRY.

Difference: Based on a virtual machine, that source can compile to. 
Many different design decisions, but many of those can be redone 
to be REBOL compatible by defining words. This is what %rebol.w is 
for.


Improvements: Faster in many cases because of the VM. I try to make 
it better in all those areas, where I find REBOL not good enough. 
Datatypes like complex! and more in the future. I also try to cut 
into the bone and only create that at the core, that is really needed. 
I see that as an improvement.

I just thought of another way to help. Make a list of REBOL functions 
missing. There are many missing from %rebol.w

And there already is a wiki started with differences from REBOL at:
https://github.com/Geomol/World/wiki/Differences-from-REBOL

I don't have time to write it. But everybody can write in that wiki.

Now, go try World out. And remember to have fun!

If LOOP becomes a native, we can just move it in the dictionary. 
I try to create as few natives as possible to keep World simple, 
but my need for good performance too might lead to a few mezzanines 
becoming natives.

- Added native function: TRY
- Added set-path! notation to set values in structs (POKE)
- Added support for: to string! handle
- Added context: system/words
- Added helper function: ROUTINE
- Added mold support for routines (SOURCE)
- Added debugging function: ??
- Bugfixes

Does TRY have an /except option?

Geomol, what would happen if you evaluate something like

    try [return 1]

World is free to use and can be found at https://github.com/Geomol/World

Why don't you try those things out yourselves? I would like to comment, 
but I feel, you get most from it by trying it.

Ladislav, if you did try and mean having that code inside a function, 
then there was a bug, which will be fixed in next release.

Another try to close the topic on openness: So you expect to get 
man-years of work open-sourced for free? And this in a situation, 
where I get nothing from doing so? Please, be serious! World is not 
a hobby-project for me. I have invested a lot of time and money in 
this.

I have my hands full, and the World project do very good progress 
right now. I see no business benefit from making World open source 
at this point in time.

Case closed. :)

First try on a World Map:
http://www.fys.ku.dk/~niclasen/world/World_Map.html

Made with FreeMind and exported as Flash.

Oh and also try "Auto Layout" under Format menu, it makes it nice, 
but make a copy before use it.