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Do you see my point? For a target, we need to estbalish a time/money 
budget and ratio.

Bit of both in my view. Money to support full time development. And 
the knowlegde to know how to is also sparse. A little bit extra on 
info and tutorial like stuff could maybe get some more people started. 
Google's summer of code like the HAIKU project is putting to use 
is beyond reach for the small base of devs for instance.

We are on the other hand lucky to have the enthousiastic giants we 
have now. It is enough to let the projects live on, but not in the 
way blooming as we feel should be the case. 

Yet the progress even in the last weeks is a great accomplishment, 
cannot be said enough..

shure, as long as you have a precise end-result with milestones, 
 time estimates, and realistic goals.

but would it actually end up working?

Maarten, some thoughts about all this. IMO R3 or what it's than called 
is not the end product. It's an enabeling technology to make good 
products in a very short time.

I haven't seen Brian Tiffin on SO for quite some time.

Maarten - well, some ppl might ask just the reverse - why to continue 
with Red, if/when R3 got open-sourced? R3 is closer to completion, 
Saphirion invested time/money into it. Difficult to suggest one or 
the other side, to shut down the project. I am curious, what chat 
with Carl during the devcon will reveal ....

When I have talked to Carl about Red, he is very interested in it, 
but wishes he had more time to delve into it.  He has great respect 
for Doc and his abilities.

I simply believe, that during the Devcon, it will be the right time 
to exchange some ideas and explanations. Looking forward to the outcome 
of the meeting :-)

I would if I had the time and knew more about webdesign.

If I get some time I might do that.  One thing that confuses me is 
the top portion on the left it has the logon, control panel etc.. 
but at the bottom left it has a place to login.  Seems some of that 
might be redundant and might be better to also consolidate the options 
in one place on the left.

REBOL is an interpreted, internet messaging language. Highly flexible, 
REBOL 

saves time by reducing the amount of code you need to write. Code 
and data are 

the same. You can find and collapse repetitive patterns in data or 
code. Write 

your own dialects. Very easy to install, test and debug. Use the 
text editor you 
like.

Now that 1.3 is out, perhaps all of us who have scripts in the library 
should take the time to check them for compatibility, and update 
them if required.

So, time to ask Sunanda if we should now do that.

Time to implement Captcha ?

Yep, we have our  own sort of flood detection running. I call it 
RID (rampaging intruder detection)


Problem with a captcha tyope solution is that we may need View to 
generate the random images. But our CGIs currently can only run under 
Core. Plus it disadvantages the visually disabled.

Each time I see an attack like this, it gives some more ideas for 
tightening up. Most of the time (like tis time) were one step ahead 
of the vandals.

Really? I thought the probe system hang was fixed a long, long time 
ago, no stack overflow for me here. Besides it is better to just 
use 
save %system.txt system

Graham in the All group asked:

<<Is it not true though that you are limited in what you can do with 
rebol.org ? >>
Yes and no.

It's a shared server with the usual sort of quote limits, so that 
stops some of the wilder plans.

On the other hand, the limits are fairly generous. Right now, we 
do these sorts of numbers:
* 150,000 CGI executions per month
* 2.5 gigabytes of data served per month

* 70 megabytes of hard disk used (mainly for the Mailing List archive)


Of course some sort of bandwidth quota would exist with a dedicated 
server too -- that one comes from the ISP, not the box.
---- 

We've had the same problem most of us have had with servers at one 
time or another: REBOL going feral and failing to close tasks. That 
brought down the server once, and got us suspended for about 30 minutes 
until I beseeched forgiveness. Of course, that could happen with 
a dedicated server (no one quite knows why it happens).


Similarly, we get some leak-through from what are supposed to be 
the chinese walls; and that has caused the odd problem: mainly file 
permissions going askew.
---

As Peter said, the main limitation is manpower. There are several 
things under development at rebol.org right now; there is room for 
many other improvement projects too.

:-)  I did wait a looong time to publish the Reversi script here 
(first version was made for /View 0.10) - It's strange to have a 
script who plays a game better than its author...

haven't looked at rebol.org for quite some time. It is starting to 
become really good source of rebol related info ...

I guess Sunanda is too busy extending Rebol.org to have time to hunt 
for news.

The first stage of having community links at REBOL.org would be meaningful 
content in personal pages.

We could the time them together or pull out highlights to make some 
overview pages.


If someone wants their website (etc linked to from REBOL.org), the 
first move is up to them.

There is a bug in Repack script.


Each time I use it and I try to set the target directory, then clicking 
OK in the selection window terminate the script !!
ANNOYING !!!

seems the "+" is a problem? (Overlokked that message the first time)

Just installed Ubuntu Linux for the first time. REBOL/View's font 
rendering is correct on it. I hope that will still be the case with 
the new version that will be released in a month

So what's needed:

1. We need a way to continually parse the SSHD log-file, something 
like tial

2. We extract the IP address and add it to some firewall, to block 
it for some time
3. We need to remove the IP from the firewall

Anyone interested in such a project?

I already started 2 years ago with my irc-core-client :) I just would 
like to make it async, but don't have time now

4th of July (a good time for me to do project work) but wanted to 
say thanks for the Statue of Liberty you gave us many years back.

Can anyone give me a tip how to filter/drop IP addresses for a specific 
time-range if there are illegal login attempts? IMO this would be 
a really cool admin tool for Linux.

Actually I'm playing with festival on linux  ;) REBOL festival Client 
 with visual interface to feed the festival software running in server 
mode only take 10 lines  I love REBOL :))). So now on linux I can 
make my Computer speech me  the Carl's blog content while I'm in 
the mean time reading the French forum new posts ;)

I have not spent 3 seconds looking into it yet. just hoping to spend 
my time some other way :)

Alan: that happens the first time AltME syncs up.

Robert, you may find the right glibc rpm here: http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/index.html

Be sure to read about the different ones, so you get the right one.

You should be able to have more than one version of glibc installed 
at the same time (so everything will work). There are programs with 
GUIs in RedHat Linux to install rpms, or you can use the rpm command 
from the command line.

It's been a while, since I used Linux, and it can be a hazzle to 
update sometimes.

we have looked at it and at the same time looked at phpsavant 
 http://phpsavant.com/yawiki/index.php?page=StartExample


for us, our key concerns is maintenance from the developer point 
of view. We want the team to stick to one language (or markup)... 
there will be times in a project, that you may not have the luxury 
of a designer...so the developer still end up working on the apps 
GUI (or look-n-feel).

think Gab has 'Temple', some time back... can't remember the exact 
name

Smarty uses some kind of "precompiling", so they don't need to process 
the template each time. Can anyone explain me, what does it mean? 
How does the technique work?

time...

it just needs time...

well anyone wanting to pull up his sleeves a little and who doesn't 
mind getting started by chatting over the course of a week, to figure 
out things is welcome to try it out.   Remark is my most finished 
tool of all.  It has been release level for a long time...

I have some patent work started on an internet keyboard some time 
back...if there is some seriousness, I am interested to start a joint 
project/business with a few interested people.

this throws your whole body off center  for hours at a time-- this 
becomes eight more serious problem if you put the keyboard in your 
lap

wrt speech recognition: I use Dragon Naturallyspeaking quite some 
time, and it works very well. Takes some training but after a few 
horus it is really good. http://www.scansoft.com

Yesterday I talked to one web designer, let's say he is not too much 
experienced - he is good in graphics, but not so good at understanding 
all webdesign/browser related tricks. However - he told what I am 
thinking for some time already and Chris will not eventually agree 
- css is fine, but why do all .css based pages look the same?

If there's a boxy-limitation, it isn't in CSS.  HTML currently only 
supports rectangular boxes.
Spend a bit of time at
http://www.csszengarden.com/
to see how different CSS can be with the HTML.


Not to say that CSS doesn't have limitations -- lack of variables 
and calculations is an obvious one.

re workflow - interesting - I will order Zeldman's book too .... 
Alistapart seems to be a good resource too. I never build large site, 
just few webpages, generated by script or using DreamWeaver 4 long 
time ago. My mine problem right now is - how to start to think of 
a design. From typographics area I know I should divide page into 
some sections. I did so using tables extensively, now I wonder, if 
I should use css columns, simply using "div" tags ...

yes petr, i add things as i need them. i just don't have the time 
to polish it up and design a dialect for it

hmm, it is long time ago I looked at Temple sources, but it seemed 
to me, that first phase generates block of blocks ... then you use 
some functions, e.g. find-by-id, etc., which does lookup in rebol 
block structure and then it replaces/adds data to it. Now once you 
generate html content, how does it know about its original formatting? 
You would have to store pointers to certain sections of original 
template to fill-in releavant data, but maybe I just was looking 
wrong into it ...

no time now, so no plans.

I have a problem with some layout.


Trying to align an output of 'processingtime' and some 'footer' on 
the same line.. but I always end up wiht the footer a line below. 
The left-right alignment is correct though.

---
.footer {
	text-align: right;
	font:10px verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	color: #666;
	background: transparent;
}

.processingtime {
	text-align: left;
	font:10px verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	color: #666;
	background: transparent;
}
--

--
<div class="processingtime">some processing time</div>
<div class="footer">some trademarks stuffs</div>
--

Try putting the footer inside the other div:
<div class="processingtime">some processing time
<div class="footer">some trademarks stuffs</div></div>
and as inline or (in this case) <span>

I manage to get it looks with this..

--
.footer {
	display:inline;
	font:10px verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
	color: #666;
	background: transparent;
             position:absolute;
             right:0; 
}



<span class="processingtime"><? echo round($current_time, 3) ?></span>

<span class="footer">&copy;&nbsp; NEUSTEPS TECHNOLOGIES PTE LTD, 
2003-2005</span>
--


not too sure if it is logically correct... but it looks the way I 
wants..

Could anyone help me to understand following? We currently don't 
have time write own webshop, so few of our dealers offered us to 
be hosted. We simply want, that ppl visiting our hosted website would 
still see only http://www.xidyscomp.czin the url bar and not - http://xidys.ekatalog.biz/katalog.aspx

some time ago I used some meta redirect tag syntax, but I can't remember 
it right now ...

Nice, Henrik!


I do that sort of stuff all the time, and I am sure others do too. 
So to have it as a single item is a good thing.


One small point -- your way of extending the existing object works 
only for single-level values....I often have configuration objects 
that have sub-objects. A field added to a sub-object would be missed 
by your code.  Take a look at:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/view-script.r?script=extend-an-object.r
Which was created for this sort of purpose.

Another comment : it's better to remove the offset at the pane creation 
rather than each time you show one. So use :

If I built a little page to create cookbook entries in wiki style, 
would you use it? It could be useful to have cookbook entries fixed 
quickly this way as I'm too pressed for time to release my tutorials.

Tom started this group with a reference to
http://www.rebol.net/cookbook/requests.html

It's a set of outstanding requests for cookbook entries -- ie examples 
that people would like to see.

As he says.some have been done independently of the request, and 
published on the REBOLn Altmes or the Mailing List.

It'd be a great collective community New Year's resolution to clear 
some of the cookbook request by the end of the month (and that leaves 
plenty of time to enter the competition too)

I don't have so much time to write docs, I rather do something in 
my dialect

There's been some swf2fla tools out for quite some time now.

At least, that's what he's telling me all the time... ;)))

I'm going to study your sites for more great ideas! Thanks for your 
help. After all ths time RSWF is coming alive for me. I realize though 
that one has to have artistic talent. You obviously do. Thanks again.

I've just updated the dialect to be able override the default settings 
for maximum recursion depth and ActionScript time-out: http://box.lebeda.ws/~hmm/rswf/index.php?example=162

Oldes' dialect  is something I always wanted to study, but never 
managed. Adobe's products are very interesting as well to study, 
so I delved more time in learning actionscript directly. Next on 
my list is Flex. But Oldes' dialect is a feat on itself.

good Rebolers don't wait

 ... well said. There's a lot of juice left in R2. I'll personally 
 be using it at least for 12-18 months more for commercial projects. 
 Full time.

And I have Import-swf command in the dialect (not documented yet 
as I still change it a little bit). I'm using it to include large 
animations made in IDE. As I have a caching mechanism already, I 
can include it in my dialect and control it in miliseconds, don't 
have to wait many seconds to compile all the animation in the IDE 
every time when I change a bit of a code.

If I can throw my two cents here. Terry is right to complain, because 
you can feel he cares, it's not destructive criticism. Pekr is saying 
he's a realist, but to me he sounds more like a dreamer (no offense).Flash 
is a Virtual Machine that lives in the browser. Rebol is a VM that 
lives on several OSes. Flash VM is present on 99% of the browsers. 
Rebol VM is not present  on browsers (plugin doesn't count because 
last time I tried it wouldn't install, and last version is more than 
a year old), and it is present on OSes of a small number of creative 
developers and hobbyists. If I had to develop a commercial app for 
the web, Flash and Flex give me extensive documentation, and a whole 
framework. Rebol can't compete with Adobe, and should not. Last week, 
I developed a GUI in Rebol and Rebgui that would have taken me four 
times longer in any other graphical toolkit, and I had a knack at 
it. But this app is for internal use. Rebol is a great language, 
and I would like to see it evolve as a computer language, not as 
a throw it all in kind of gizmo. It should go Open Source, because 
RT doesn't have the means to provide versions for all platforms. 
Where is the rebol for NetBSD? Last version is 2001. If RT hasn't 
the resources, let the developers do it. I want to run rebol on an 
internet tablet. I had wanted to run rebol on a palm (not anymore 
because Palm is deas, sort of). But the Nokia tablet run debian linux. 
There is no reason for the unabailability of rebol. It is just a 
matter of building it and packaging it. Who has the time for this? 
Plenty of people, they're just not at RT, because there people are 
busy with more important things (like developing the product).

flash is on zero browsers until installed...I've set up machines 
at work for guys in the firehouse to use. Every computer there gathers 
so much adware/spyware/viruses that I can never keep up cleaning 
them. I've had to re-install windows so many times and each time 
I have to re-install the latest flash player. I resorted to setting 
up puppy linux and running off a bootable cd..(with the typical complaints 
about it not being windows) Anyway...rebol plug-in is easire to download 
than flash so what's the bigdeal. I install active-x controls all 
the time when I find a site that interests me and needs the control.

Yes, that's what I will do, but I wanted to completely replace the 
phone without having my computer on all the time.

just what does Apple think? I hate their quick-time crap ...

Pekr, "why I am looking into mini-itx stuff". I have been waiting 
for nano-ITX for the last two years ... and in that time Apple have 
released Mac mini and announced Mac mini for x86.


I've done the sums, even with the wholesale prices I can get on most 
of the PC components (Via board, laptop HDD, RAM, Case plus time/cost 
of assembly), and the current Mac mini still comes out cheaper and 
quieter even with all the Mac software pre-bundled.


If Apple can release the new Intel-based Mac mini at the same or 
better prices, with the same or better specs, then why would anyone 
wait for Via to get their act together when they can buy a cost-effective 
off-the-shelf solution today, even if it means ditching OS X for 
Linux or Windows?!

pekr, of course all these things are already available for OSX and 
have been for a long time. One thing that kind of surprised me is 
how many apps surpass Windows equivalents in quality, simply because 
the underlying foundation with Cocoa is incredibly strong. You can 
tap into a lot of amazing functions and the OS itself can do things 
where Windows would need third party software to do the same.

For example, look at Jaime's presentation from the REBOL conference. 
It was done in Keynote which is a presentation program made by Apple 
which makes Powerpoint look like a silly joke. It uses full 3D hardware 
acceleration and can apply pixel shader effects to the presentation 
through Core Image. By having a very strong set of video functions 
as well, presentations can be exported to a lot of different videoformats 
from DV to H264 or MPEG4, etc. in any size or framerate. You can 
also convert parts of it to a PDF document or a bitmap image. All 
this is possible, because OSX does this in Cocoa and is available 
at the developer's fingertips. This is also what made apps like iMovie 
possible, because they integrate into OSX.


Often the wrong question to ask is "Does program X exist for OSX?", 
because the programs are different and often of much higher quality. 
A lot of programs don't even have Windows equivalents. The community 
reminds me a bit of what bedroom programmers did during the old days 
of the Amiga, when they used the hardware and made beautiful demos. 
There are a lot of small, free apps available that do 2-3 things.

usb design sucks even more :-) compared to firewire at least, which 
allows various devices to talk together. But usb won big time. usb 
was saven only because faster version appeared ...

YEs, USB pisses me off  big time.

Joe, Mac mini does have a CPU fan, but it's pretty quiet (less than 
22db from memory). Unit does get pretty hot if you start doing a 
number of CPU intensive tasks at the same time, at which point you 
can actually hear the CPU fan. I've not noticed any performance issues 
with the 5400rpm drive, but I don't run any DB intensive stuff on 
it. The units originally shipped with 256MB RAM, which was just not 
enough for serious use, but I've found the 512MB they now ship with 
to be more than adequate. Most apps run well, except OpenOffice which 
runs like an absolute dog (both the X11 version and NeoOffice).

Hmm, 201 time widgets alone.

After some time, I am really glad we can see QNX related interview! 
- http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=13688

Uh, I really suggest to read the article, so nice. I still remember 
how we were blowed by what QNX could do. most of system parts are 
components, which can be plugged/unplugged in a real time, so cool 
...

Cool.  If we can make this part of the Open Source project of FireFox, 
I think it could "win" this time around.

Seems we've had something like this for quite some time -- http://www.campfirenow.com

(The vender certification process can take a lot of time... they 
have to verify that we are "good guys".)

Because, unlike IOS, we cannot rebuild the executable binary each 
time.

No time to test myself.

Might I add that a requestor should appear for EACH port access needed 
and the remote url MUST be clearly identified, each time.

What we may need is a way to partially encap scripts:

- Encrypt them using the SDK licensee's key in a way that can be 
decrypted by the plugin and traced to the licensee.

- Decrypt them with RT's plugin rather than bundling them with native 
code.

- Prompt when loading them the first time, perhaps with company info 
like IE does with ActiveX controls.
- Give encapped scripts a sandbox directory like rebsite scripts.

- Let these scripts do what they must, knowing that if they are malicious 
you know who to sue.

Hello Josh! I have one request. Try to run this:

under IE:
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-ie.html

under Mozilla/FF etc.:
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-moz.html


Drag the green box using mouse and try to move it quickly over the 
screen. You can see the time lag when the green box is updating the 
position.

Now try this from normal Rebol/View console:
do http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-moz-test.r


You can see there is no lag and the green box is updated very quickly.

Do yo have any idea what could cause this difference?

my specualtions: 

1. Are you always blitting the whole screen in the plugin versions? 
This could cause the slowdown as there should be updated only the 
part with green box on the screen.

2. Could be the slowdown cause by different(higher)  amount of mouse 
events which are pumped from browser to the plugin?

maarten, thanks, I'm needing it too.  if cheyenne can handle big 
loads, and SSL, there is a good chance I'll try to use it.  The release 
commes out at a really good time for me.

Marteen: the main issue is more about synchronization between 2 or 
more REBOL processes to avoid the modification of the same session 
data at the same time...

Doc,  I appreciate your time / work on this.  Just so I understand.... 
are you saying that the solution you would implement would only run 
on a Win machine and that solutions that run on other machines are 
not feasible  ... because they are basically cumbersome and unreliable? 
 e.g. http://drupal.org/node/44718And are schemes like NTLM Authorization 
Proxy Server unworkable?  refer http://www.geocities.com/rozmanov/ntlm/
    I can't see using Cheyenne in a work environment  unless it supports 
NTLM.

MikeL: I've implemeted a cheap solution by using the win32 API. Implementing 
NTLM natively in REBOL  require a significant amount of time, that 
I don't have currently, or in a near future. There are some non trivial 
algorithms to implement in REBOL like MD4 hashing. If required, I 
may work on such lib on a contract basis, else I don't think that 
I'll have time to implement that before next year. Maybe someone 
else in the REBOL community would have the time to do the job ?

Hey Doc.. how much time will you be committing to Cheyenne?

about 100000 rsp requests in a couple hours, last time I checked 
it was related to accumulated connections not propery closed

Fun : sure, but can be very time-consuming...

Max: you're right, I wish I have more time to spend here (hopefully, 
I can now spend 2 days per week working on all my REBOL projects, 
so, you'll see me here now more often.

the only thing it needs is someone to adapt it for cgi use... I have 
too little CGI practice and no real need, atm... so its hard to put 
time on this... but its a rebol script, so its easy to adapt.  all 
it would need is to check if its been started as cgi and call a different 
startup, which only prints out one file.  for static pages (which 
CAN include dynamic conent like sql queries) then its a very good 
solution which already supports site magamenent and ftp xfer.

yes I have all of this done... its just not online for lack of time.

I would help you Maxim, but I'm now working on my Rebol/Flash dialect 
(after very long time) so maybe afterwards.

actually I've read it, but have no time right now to try it. I'm 
still looking for some web managment so I can rework my web, but 
the time...that's the problem :) I'm using just "all groups" and 
check red groups for anything interesting :)

I put 0% of time on site layout, once its done.  I just edit content 
and make the page.  its like editing make doc, but in html format... 
also, the tags are not standard html type tags  they nest directely 
 <p! text <b! is bold <i! and italic>>>

easier to edit, since I don't have to track the damned end tag all 
the time... this being said, normal html is still valid within the 
files... so its a 1/2 way between html and rebol code.

Then STunnel => Run STunnel ...and that's all. Takes 2 mn, including 
the download time.

I'm not sure to understand your question Graham. Do you mean how 
to start Uniserve automatically at boot time on Linux ?