AltME groups: search

Unless objected, the chair moves to limit the current naming debate 
to 6pm GMT Monday July 30th.  After which time all accumulated results 
will be tallied and tabled.

Brian ... how is that IRUA had no negative references? I sent my 
email one day ago, hopefully it was there in time, and I am nearly 
sure I voted for IRUA with some negativity. First - it is not real 
world, second I am not sure what the abbreviation means, I mean - 
having it on my t-shirt is far from being cool, if even I can't depict 
the abbreviation. And third, it reminds me of IRA :-)

My email was sent 10:29 GMT + 2

Thank you Mr. Chairman,

This meeting has neglected to address the primary issue, which is 
the inappropriate 'conclusion' of using Qtask as the home site for 
this organization. I will accept the fact that, as we are now discussing 
an appropriate home site for user.r, that the error has been duly 
noted, with no further recourse, such as suspension or removal of 
chairing priviledges or restricted from voting on this matter, shall 
be necessary.


It also appears that Qtask, is to be considered, at this time, as 
'a current communications system' in use by user.r, even though this 
is somewhat controversial. Given this point, I will add to my earlier 
comments by agreeing with Mr. C and Mr. T and perhaps others, that 
Qtask is 'dark' .. in more ways than one.


In my earlier objections in May of this year, I also pointed out 
a number of other issues with regard to this 'third party' home site 
solution... The following are quotes to refresh the memories of my 
esteemed, perhaps elderly and somewhat senile, associates...


I object to the sixth motion on the grounds that Qtask is a proprietary 
company, that has a tendency to exclude critics
 
  

b) If not stricken, then provided as proof that utilizing a 3rd party, 
proprietary system can be detrimental to the welfare of this association, 
as it makes clear that said owners have in the past denied access 
at 'their sole discretion', and that this power supersedes the power 
of the chair, and as such, gives the owners of the system MORE power 
than the chair.

I also agree with others here that Qtask is 'dark'.

Will: I'm already using my business SVN repository. Managing a new 
public repository would be currently too time-consuming for me. I 
prefer for now making snapshot archives for download. Once CC will 
be a bit more mature (having an install script for example), I'll 
probably move it on a public one.

The password reset link doesn't change each time you reset the password.

Everyother system I've used which has reset the password has used 
a different link each time.

Doc, well, when I tried to log in for the first time I get the "Sorry. 
this page cannot be displayed.." error.  After fooing around with 
it for a while I thought perhaps the curecode code had to be located 
inside the root-dir. I originally had it on another drive. Well, 
that seemed to fix it. Thanks.

James, I've never experienced that. CC's default session expiration 
time is 30 minutes. I'll install Cheyenne as service on my XP box 
and will see how it behaves with CC after a few hours.

OK, I will. This morning I quit the browser and started the browser 
up again. It works fine. So the context where I have that issue is 
when the page is left open for some period of time.

All of them (including chey-<pid>.log file if you have it). Just 
zip them and send them to me by email. Thanks for taking the time 
to help me investiguate this issue.

I've activated all pending accounts manually. It seems that some 
hosting mail services like qip.ru have a hard time dealing with 8bit 
encoded emails. I've sign up for an account @hotbox.ru and will fix 
this issue in Cheyenne's MTA.

Oldes, that would require to setup a dedicated web server for that 
maintenance page. As usually, the service interruption is just for 
a few seconds, it's most of the time not even noticed by users.

If I have to take down the server for a longer time, I'll provide 
an info page.

Database migration done. Curecode.org domain's IP has been changed 
to point to a new server, so during the DNS propagation time, curecode.org 
will work on both the old and new server (24-48h). Both Curecode 
instances are now pointing to the same database instance on the new 
server. If all goes well, you shouldn't notice anything, nor have 
any downtime. Let me know if there's any issue.

cause its buggy, cause I've got no time for release 

surprises" nor can I use all of the several MB of code I already 
have which works in R2. going to R3 is a big endeavor for people 
like me who have a lot of code to convert." - Maxim

I don't want to release it to everyone yet, because it would consume 
all my time to deal with the feedback, changes, hacks, etc.

Carl: "Cyphre was in charge of all graphics. But, he vanished into 
the Qtask black hole a year ago." More precisely, you stopped updating 
the host code on CVS, and me and him stopped having the ability to 
do anything useful on that front in the little time we had available.

wow... carl and I here at the SAME time  ;-)

every other time you've been here, I was off line for a one or two 
hour period... and everytime you're not here, I'm there during those 
hours... hehehe

Anyway, I'll put together a more detailed plan and get it to you. 
 I want this to go quickly, but not waste any of our time.

Just giving a little report about a very interesting chat I had with 
Carl:


- Host code package is in the works... given priority.  My impression 
is that Carl is really wanting for this to happen.  If any of you 
feel you can actually participate and do real tests and work, now 
is the time to raise your voice.
 

- Devices and the Extensions dll code are part of the host code. 
  Thus, by extrapolation...  We (i.e. Not Carl) could work on a model 
of Device extensions and propose it to Carl, if anyone (or group) 
wants to put the effort.  obviously using the current Extensions 
as the reference...


- As it stands now, adding Native Datatypes is complex outside of 
the rebol core  (ex: in host code) because of a few issues (GC integration 
being a major one).


- Carl isn't against the idea of finding a way to add Native (binary) 
user datatype but it most probably will have to wait a bit until 
Carl and Host developers find a way to make it simple and bug free. 
 a possible idea is to bave a special extension model which acts 
as a datatype marshaller, with defined commands as datatype actions 
(aka accessors in other languages).


- Talked a little bit about threads, but nothing really specific 
to say about it... I'll need to try it in practice so I can ask relevant 
questions.

If a few of us take up the task of managing all of the extensions/device 
interface code, that means Carl can work on other things.  Carl has 
already given us a reference on his idea of how to integrate native 
code into R3.  I wouldn't have done it any differently, honestly.


in any case, we will discuss it with Carl before commiting to any 
time to implementing it.

and yes, Brian has put a lot of his time into R3 for free.  He has 
been pushing and helping Carl into doing a lot of things which are 
now part of R3.  He deserves our gratitude.  h might have shaven 
a full year off of R3's implementation just by himself.

Seriously, we owe a lot to Peta. PARSE is much better because of 
Peta's work. A bit of a drive-by though: Came, argued well and helpfully, 
then disappeared. I look forward to the next time Peta shows up :)

It is triage time, my friends. We are heading to beta, so we need 
to seriously consider what it practical to do quickly, and what needs 
be put off for a bit. REBOL is going to continue to have reasonably 
frequent updates - no more waiting years for the next release - so 
you don't have to act like your favorite proposed feature will never 
arrive if it doesn't make 3.0. We need to figure out what we need 
to make a useful beta.

Hi Robert, yes, it is indeed interesting "where the time goes".

Carl once admitted that is was possible but not "enabled".   AFAIK, 
he never told anyone the trick.  maybe its unstable and didn't want 
to put time on it.


theoretically, one could build an https server protocol in R2... 
the encryption algorithms are all there AFAIK in /pro licenses.  
its just knowing the handshaking protocols and all that... I look 
briefly at the RFC once and its not "obvious" to implement... at 
least not for the bg I have.

Geomol - why is R2 more interesting to you? I can't somehow understand 
it :-) There is many areas R3 already surpasses R2, is more precisely 
defined and consistent. Time to move to R3 really soon imo ...

It would be good, if you are right.


As an example of my use of R2, and where I can't use R3, look at 
this image:
http://www.fys.ku.dk/~niclasen/bachelor/dist.png


I'm working on my bachelor project in astronomy at the university. 
I'm going to make a simulation of comets at the Late Heavy Bombartment 
some 3.9 bio. years ago to test a theory, that the water on Earth 
came from those comets. A part of my work is to study earlier simulaitons 
of 10'038 comets made by others. I would like to see, how the distribution 
of their initial situation looked, so I made a little REBOL script, 
that plotted the 10'038 comets and the orbits of the planets, Jupiter, 
Saturn, Uranus and Neptun. The image is showing this. It took me 
very little time to write the script in R2, and I can use the result.

Can you see, I can't use R3 for such things?

I said a looong time ago that we would, when R3 reaches beta, require 
a much larger number of developers to move forward. When extensions 
and host are properly released, this will still be the case.

Geomol, sometime I felt frustrated by the long time REBOL3 took to 
be developed but now I see the light out from the tunnel and it is 
not the train running against us !

REBOL3 has been rewritten from ground upp with high skills and few 
resources. This mean it needs time to be completed but it will be 
like a good wine.

GEomol and henrick OR YOU CAN STOP USING PAST CENTURY COMPUTERS THAT'S 
GOOD TOO !!! 


>> x: now/time a: 1. b: 2. loop 10000000 [a + b * a / b] now/time 
- x
== 0:00:03
Take that baby

Take this:


>> x: now/time a: 1. b: 2. loop 10000000 [a + b * a / b] now/time 
- x
== 0:00:03

we could add JIT compilation to rebol, we could have REBOL based 
extensions which are JIT compiled in real-time, for example  :-)

LLVM is a compiler, which you can control in real-time and easily 
embed.

it would make for a powerfull extension, where we could simply run 
a rebol dialect like Rebolek's REBOL syntaxed-C and compile it in 
real time through an extension which serves as a jump vector manager.

pekr... wrt shake... and what do you think the graph does ?  ;-) 
 


the graph is compiled in real-time everytime you change its structure. 
 you can create your own nodes and add them to the engine, using 
the graph itself as a visual development platform.


 as I said, I worked for those guys... I have an intricate knowledge 
 of how it works.  I also implemented a REBOL implementation of shake 
 callings its rendering engine and intepreting its (C) Header files 
 to integrate all the nodes.  :-)

Regarding JIT/VMs: Recently I spent some time looking into this area. 
After the short investigation I believe JIT compiler which can be 
really useful(and fast enough) for Rebol can be written in kilobytes 
of code not megabytes.

well, for those of you who are on devchat... you can see my (humorous) 
host-lib compilation post there, but for all others... just I just 
want to tell the world that... 

ITS ALIVE!!!! hehehahahahaha (evil grin and laugther)...


yep, I am on the short list of lucky individuals who got the host 
code, and it compiled the very first time I tried, so, mission accomplished 
and congratulations to Carl.

Guys, there's a trouble with OS-X or so it seems. Any experienced 
OS-X coder to help? Message from Carl on R3 Chat:


I must set OS X on the back burner... I've wasted far too much time 
on it.

There are three choices on it:
1. find a tool that does what 
I need
2. make a tool that does what I need
3. join all the sources 
into one large .c compile

Note that gcc -fvisibility=hidden does 
not work, nor does __private_extern__ wor
k either.

I've got to 
get on with other projects now. So, if you happen to find the soluti
on, 
let me know. (PS, yes, using GCC > 4.0.)

DevBase, aka chat. Be warned though - it was generated from a literate 
programming environment, so the source isn't structured in a way 
that makes sense to humans - only the generated docs do. Fixing it 
might require a full restructuring, which I have been working on 
in my available time.

LOAD/header. All of the module requirements/exports are in the header. 
Even Carl's proposed export keyword will be handled like FUNCT - 
at load time, not runtime.

In the case of FUNCT uses in the mezzanine source, the code is run 
and then saved, so there is no FUNCT calls at startup time.

I guess it's download wireshark time :(

except from using print directly in the scheme code, there was no 
way to do that at the time.

now someone with free time should start writing it :P

I am reviewing the networking code now, in my available time.

I try this

read daytime://time-a.nist.gov

make-scheme [
	name: 'daytime
	title: "Daytime Protocol"
	awake: func [event /local port] [
		print ["=== Client event:" event/type]
		port: event/port
		switch event/type [
			lookup [
				print "DNS lookup"
				open port
			]
			connect [
				print "connected" 
				read port
			]
			read [
				close port
				return true ; quits the awake
			]
		]
		false
	]
	actor: [
		;open: func [port [port!]][port]
		read: func [
			port [port!] /local con
		][
			con: open rejoin [tcp:// port/spec/host ":13"]
			con/awake: :awake
			wait con
			to-string con/data
		]
	]
]

probe read daytime://time-a.nist.gov

=== Client event: lookup
DNS lookup
=== Client event: connect
connected
=== Client event: read
{
55203 10-01-07 07:51:23 00 0 0 282.6 UTC(NIST) *
}

It's clearly explain in the link you pointed.

Note B

OPEN is called twice. It is moded. The mode is determined by the 
existence of the IP address. If the IP address is not known, the 
LOOKUP happens, otherwise the CONNECT happens. This also means that 
if you do an OPEN of a port where you provide the IP address, no 
lookup is done; you skip directly to CONNECT. If it is necessary 
to determine if the IP address is known (a rare situation), use QUERY 
-- which can be called at any time and is very fast.

should work for the get-s, though. but anyway, you only read state 
one time in the switch, and another time in the default handler

Just looking at what R2 does .. .each time it does a file/directory 
transfer, it opens the data connection, sends the command and then 
closes it again.

is there a trick to read R3 dns:// ?  I haven't found it.  Didn't 
see any tickets in cure-code.  Should something be submitted there? 
 (last year was 100% R2 product design...I am wanting to port some 
Core stuff to R3, but I need as much network stuff as possible.  
I did write a real-time video codec for R3 a couple years ago...I 
might see if it can hook into the new codec stuff, too.

It was in the last half of 2007 I wrote it.  R3 was fast enough for 
real-time.

but don't forget to execute a [read port] each time you received 
a packet , to be able to receive the futher one.

but it's sayed futher that the buffer is not recreated each time 
a read occurs

i think the lookup should most of the time wrapped silently, and 
not asyncly exposed to a scheme's user, even if the scheme is supposed 
to be async

the transfer won't happen in zero time

Clients closing connections


The client can simply close the connection without sending QUIT. 
This saves time and memory for both the client and the server.

There are a few broken TCP implementations, such as MacTCP 2.0.6, 
that fail to acknowledge TCP FINs after a local close. If the client 
is running on such a host, it shouldn't close the connection until 
after it sends QUIT and sees the server close the connection; otherwise 
the server will waste time repeatedly transmitting the FIN until 
it times out.

last time i used it was years ago

Uploaded latest version with this change, and the STOR command .. 
just in time for bed!

Graham - we have all world REBOL developers here ... 5-10 ... so 
basically yes, we are interested, just pressed for the time :-)

yep.  Visual Arts, part time (although this semester I am doing a 
full time semester, since the courses I took are easy for me).

Carl should use it to save time

I doubt that would save him time - all of rebol.com is generated 
from scripts, mostly WIP in the new site.

I use nntp all the time. It's also called Usenet.

Nice idea Gregg, READ could return the whole block (an COPY  or TAKE 
just one line at time)

Andreas, your binding in the awake function should ne done only one 
time, at construction

we could give a try for real time collaborative work and update the 
code in a shared sheet. There some tools for that

I'll leave it to you guys for now. I need to make time before I'll 
add much value. I agree with Andreas as well. Better to have him 
complete his vision on this I think.

more time, please :)

There are definitely time in REBOL where things get overloaded and 
the context is hard for humans to deal with.

Andreas .. regarding IMAP4, I looked at the RFC and then revised 
RFC and then the corrections to the revised RFC .. and I thought 
.. maybe it's going to take some time to read!

I haven't used IMAP4 for years so ... for me it's going to take time 
to get up to speed again.

yes pekr, there is possibility out there (putty sources being one), 
its just a question of some competent C coder taking some time to 
check it out and possibly wrap it as an extension and/or as a module 
to load in the host directly.

I don't have the time right now... too much work to do ...

Pekr, "just wrapping" other code is not easy to do right, and takes 
time and effort. Less time and effort than rewiting it from scratch 
in some cases (likely including SSL and SSH), but still not a trivial 
effort.

but the result will be 3 tools instead of one... and about the same 
time to accomplish the end goal.

Ok, what do we need for imap?  ( although I suspect doing all these 
email schemes is a waste of time without ssl ) ...

I've got the imap protocol to the point where
1. can authenticate using cram-md5 ( reused r2 code )

2. can select different mailboxes ( unlike r2 where you have to select 
at time of opening the port )
3. length? 
4. Pick messages

However, I don't like this timeout which is there ..

time to read the manual :(

lunch time, bbl

Graham, before looking at your new schemes, I decided to review some 
of DocBase. But... I must say that I have a difficult time finding 
things there... I'm not sure if the user who was reorganizing it 
got a chance to finish the updates.

Yes, I'm sure it will work with REST ... it's just harder to maintain 
the aws interface each time they change their specifications

So, are users supposed to initalize their email, passwords, proxies 
etc somewhere or each time they run a script?

(ports, schemes, etc)... I did get my product mostely working in 
R3 (large % networking) up to about 90% and to be honest, I didn't 
put much time into the porting R2 -> R3 yet.

I need to port it to the latest R3.  There was a point where the 
GC got changed and the real-time performance went crazy, and I want 
to blend it into the new architecture...so I don't want to put out 
something that requires an old R3 alpha...and the dialect is not 
100% clean...guess I'm being kind of a Carl here...not ready for 
prime-time yet.

(this assumes that there have been no major changes to http since 
last time i touched it.)

Yes, that's what I'm after, Gabriele. Opening a network port and 
then waiting for network, time, or gui events.

Any simple protocol example available, something like the R2 one 
long time on rebolforces, but for R3? I'd like to implement protocol 
above 'file schema. Any help/hint welcome.

Pavel, you were right the first time in trying to implement GET/PUT 
actors, but you got the names wrong. Try again with PICK and POKE.

I've tryed to make time scheme from your daytime scheme Graham, as 
I noted when I put print at awake level as You did for debug probably 
I can see the server response, but I'm not able to get response at 
the 
read time://server.site
== somenumber

Finally I've got it, so now I have a time scheme returning (RFC 868) 
integer number of seconds from 1-Jan-1900. I tried to define refinement 
/date to return well formated date!. But there is no possibility 
to define different refinement except of hadcoded one so I have to 
use /lines for that, silly.

Would you mind to show the interface/api or the actual implementation 
of your time scheme? You're probably (mis-)using the /LINES refinement 
of READ, but maybe you can instead use WRITE for that ...

ChristianE the idea arises from the fact the time server send only 
response and close immediately, so I only implemented Read actor. 
The problem is that you may not create a new refinement but only 
redefine one existing. 

time scheme needs a little polishing and will be posted to script 
library.

Anyway you are right the only possibility how to controll the scheme 
in wider borders is to write a command block and wait for reply. 
Another not so generall would be write into port state context and 
use this as switch for read actor.

prot-time.r was uploaded to rebol.org, now works only synchronous 
way ie: read time://your.time.server, server must be RFC 868 (port 
37).  basically it returns number of UTC seconds from 1-Jan-1900/0:00:00. 
When refinement /lines it returns well formated local time (using 
local timezone)

Graham, 1. where you put the R3 schemes (if so)? wik.is is definitely 
down. 2. I have to say your daytime scheme doesn't work for me (functionality 
commented out I think). 3. you can add prot-time into your collection 
if you like to.

I am wondering how one would implement the IMAP4 IDLE command .. 
see http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2177


It seems that once one sends an IDLE command, the server might then 
send a response back any time up to the server's inactivity timeout.

it has been reported as being as much as 50% faster though all the 
explorer reporting becomes totally wrong... i.e. instead of wasting 
time trying to determine how fast and how much time it takes, it 
just does its copy and reporting is completely off, but its actually 
much faster.