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Last thing the pointer is slow on hudge text because of this F***King 
mad system base on caret  to handle the cursor position you store 
the current text that belongs after the cursor Writing and rewriting 
every time into this caret buffer the most part of the document is 
super slow  !!!

In the same area, there is also my NicomDoc: http://home.tiscali.dk/john.niclasen/nicomdoc/

I think, my approach has some advantages over both MD2 and MDP. I 
convert to/from an internal XML-kind of format called RebXML, which 
is much easier to work with, when making importers/exporters to different 
formats. RebXML is defined here: http://home.tiscali.dk/john.niclasen/rebxml/

I'm not sure, if anyone else found my ideas to be usefull, when I 
talked about it here half a year ago, and I haven't have much time 
to do more with NicomDoc, but it's not a dead project.

I find the idea of using simple tags to generate doc a improvement 
for professionals. Every time I have to use the m$ word, I'm stuck 
into format problems and i spend more time find a solution to it 
than concentrating on the core of my text. But i guess this is a 
known complaint :-)

standardization: Yep, I agree. But seems like we have to many options, 
different thinkings and preferences, to many forks etc. I tried it 
several times but no luck. I think it won't happen, and I don't spend 
any more time on this standardization stuff. It needs people to push 
it and without a group wanting this it won't happen.

But this needs quite a lot of time...

; Options still need work!!!
 <---- found this in the source code for makedoc 2 on rebol.org


Does this mean that reusing makedoc in the same run-time session 
really is broken? If I turn off table of contents for one doc, it 
will not be on for the next for example.

May be the answer.  Might have to look into this the next time I 
play with Make-Doc

Well, I didn't touched it for a long time. So it's very basic (should 
have noted this more clear). I can send you all the parts and you 
can take a look.

(in some cases it doesn't, because it would require too much time, 
but the user decides this, by setting the tolerance)

circle: i didn't spend much time on it. it's done by just setting 
the margins of each line so that it looks like a circle. :)

I'm embedding JPGs into SWF files without problem, there is not required 
any special operation on the JPG's data to embedd. With the other 
formats I have to count pallete and use Rebol's compress (zlib) to 
embedd such an image (gif or png). It's not so fast, but it does 
what I need (and I don't mind if it takes a second more time to compile)

oldes, depends on the viewer. I use PDF's under OSX all the time. 
:-)

there's also to say, that the layout-pdf dialect is still meant to 
be rather low level. a human would write in QML or makedoc or some 
high level dialect, not layout-pdf; thus the defaults for image would 
be useless (even if a human was to write it, they'd only cover some 
10-20% of the cases, since not all images have the same dpi, and 
99% of the time you don't want the image at the bottom left corner 
of the page).

Thanks, that makes sense to me now. I'll have a bit more time tomorrow 
to think things through a bit more.

i don't have the time to write it at this moment... also, i'm sure 
someone other than me would have a more user-centric perspective. 
ie some of the stuff in v2 that seems trivial for me might not be 
so for other users.

Well, I hacked it...and have no clue if what I did would work the 
next time :)

I ocr pdfs all the time .... because my scanner produces PDFs

I haven't spent any time on formulas. I don't have a need for that, 
and since it's quite time consuming to do it as good as TeX, I never 
really planned doing it.

it's not hard to render math. it's just that TeX is very well tuned 
(uses the correct spacing between things), which is just a long list 
of rules and parameters. One could get that out from the TeX source... 
otherwise it just takes a long time to tweak all the parameters to 
get a nice looking result.

I wish to have more time to play a little bit with the pdf-maker

I don't think I'll have the time to write it myself in the short 
term. I'd be very happy to help anyone willing to write it though.

the x and y for images are there so that you don't have to use a 
translation each time :)

just a moment..I'm on slow connection so it will take some time when 
I find the links...

general matrix operation? I am not sure it belongs to AGG, but we 
asked for it long time ago :-)

If my tries are good, ARC command use "time" direction !! I would 
better think in "Trigonometric" one, no ?

DideC Why don't you take 5 minutes of your precious time to make 
us a treview and a dir-resquestor for RebGUI ?

I had to spent *lot* of time to be able show around 60% of SVG files. 
Unfortunately I cannot share the code as it will be part of commercial 
app soon.

I think trying to arrive to the level to inkscape in our own SVG 
DRAW MAKER software will take more than one year to redone it with 
REBOL... So to avoid loss of time we can yet work on the engine for 
rebgui feeting to InkScape SVG format then we can start working to 
our own SVG DRAW MAKER made in full REBOL... One thing that afraid 
me a little is the flexibility of the SVG format as it can be very 
different how to support any SVG file comming from any EDITOR ? For 
me SVG appears to me to be close to what we done with MakeDoc format. 
Today we have many MD like format all very good but to make a Viewer 
in rebol that support them all it wil be very very difficult.

... Adding SVG support is a feature un plus you have to keep in mind 
that the rendering is done in Draw ... As we don't have the time, 
the volunty etc to make an Hight LEVEL graphic draw sofware that 
instead of outputing SVG output ready to show AGG code ...

yes, basic screen designer. Sometimes properly laying-out your screen 
takes you more time than to code support stuff :-)

Yes, GUI work for apps often takes me 75% of my time -- so anything 
to reduce that helps.

(In other words, 75% of the app development time.)

CArl it depend how shaped you want the UI ...  people in general 
want to pass the less time possible over the UI ...

Carl, please exlain the 75% app development time.

ie. how exactly is that 75% app time being spent?

Graham: getting GUIs to work perfectly, when they include a lot of 
special features and scrolling, etc, takes too much time.

I have to say, that I don't get that MVC concept at all. It seems 
to me, like some academic head came with that model some time back, 
while reality might be elsewhere. Do you really desing your apps, 
that its fits MVC model? E.g. that famous Ruby and other DB "automatic" 
schemas which are supposed be so cool have to be rudiculous to someone 
who actually knows SQL. Soon after you start reading docs you find 
out, that when you get to more complicated DB schema, they only provide 
you with excuses that you can't have everything. Sometimes frameworks 
work against you :-) Not that I would not understand their advantages 
otoh, hence I am asking, if QM is really so usefull? The thing is, 
that I tried to give it a try several times, and I did not know what 
to do actually, but maybe I am extremely stupid for such stuff, and 
am only able to work with plain cgi/fcgi ...

If there is some full example implementation of some site for e.g., 
I could give it a try ... last time I tried was some year ago or 
so ...

I do agree it takes time to figure out MVC, and I think the terms 
are too much inspired by a technological point of view. It´s really 
about separating the concerns of the usual stakeholders working on 
websites, or applications in general: the programmer/database designer, 
the consultant designing the business logic, the graphics/UI designer 
and the secretary maintaining the content

Well that was my main problem.  I didn't like the layouts they presented 
either.  In fact this is one reason why I got out of the business. 
 It was costing me to much manual efforts to do the updating and 
I didn't have the time.

I've used directnic for a long time. No problems that I can recall, 
but my needs have been very simple.

I use tables to presend data that belongs into tables and where it 
makes sense. I didn't use tables for general layout in a long time. 
I am not any purist but I find other ways much better than tables 
for this. It can make quite messy code and they don't degrade well 
to smaller screens.. etc..

I've once worked with this process of first having a designer building 
mockups in photoshop, then they were moved to Dreamweaver and I had 
to "graft" javascript on top of it, and whenever the designer made 
a change, I had to start from scratch. The customer demanded to see 
the site in full function. We moved so slowly, the project was dropped 
after a few months. 


Another time, I finished the project, but it took so long to do, 
because the design was nearly impossible to convert to HTML/JS. That 
was 5 years ago.

And people are just realizing this now?

any tips for wget tool allowing to go via form authentication? We 
need to make off-line copy of one site. The site works only from 
one PC at a time from our organisation, it seems it uses cookies 
or so ....

yeah the first not crappy plasma screens where 60000$  and they didn't 
come down for a long time.

It is a long time I last looked into ajax libraries.  I know I tend 
not to use mainstream stuff, but often based upon coolness of the 
technology :-) Many ppl talk jquery, even MS is adopting it for SharePoint, 
but what about e.g.:

Mootools
YUI - http://yuilibrary.com/
Dojo Toolkit - http://dojotoolkit.org/
Sencha Touch - http://www.sencha.com/
DHTMLx - http://dhtmlx.com/
Prototype - http://www.prototypejs.org/

SmartGWT (successor to GWT) - http://www.smartclient.com/smartgwt/showcase/#main
http://dojotoolkit.org/

Any experience, preference? What are YOU using?

I'm using jQuery, becuase I'm lazy to write own stuff (which I consider 
better in most cases, because I usually need only minimal functionality 
provided by the jQuery) and want to spend as less time working on 
web as possible so I do not examine other frameworks.

I can imagine REBOL dialect to build code for many such a toolkits, 
but as I say.. I don't want to spend time on it at this moment.

about JS libs:

I don't use jQuery .. it's oweblown for what I want (I don't need 
it to reinvent javascript). If I need any complex components like 
datepicker (which I don't want to reinvent) I use mootools usually 
(because you can use just needed parts of it). jQuery UI modules 
(which has this) are very very slow and CSS is so complex I don't 
even start to get it how to customize it.


Dojo always seemed this mega lib that I don't want either. If I go 
to their demos (at least last time I looked) everything is slow and 
unresponsive. I want my things to be slim on code and snappy.


Prototype (mootools does this also, but I think a little less) is 
first generation JS lib (that started it all). I think it heavily 
monkey patches the core JS/DOM objects.. thats why I don't like it.


I also neve use css3 selectors in my JS code (that is a major part 
why people use jquery and likes). I always move relative to an element 
with seekFwd, seekIn, seekOut, seekBack fuctions I have or just use 
ID of element (and then seek if needed).

You need to use the API to get the version resource from a PE file. 
It might be a standard resource , but I haven't touched that in a 
long time so I can't remember.


As an aside, this feature was so requested in the VB world, years 
ago, that Desaware created a commercial product called VersionStamper 
that did just that; and they sold a lot of them.

Henrik, if you need to do automatic update, you might want to look 
at how the detective does it, it has worked *very* well so far, and 
it can update both the exe (if you change version of the interpreter) 
and the code only (to save download time). the autoupdate library 
is bsd.

well, things changed a bit since last time. why do you think I post 
so much in this group all of a sudden? :-)

99% of the time that means "i cannot decompress the rebol code inside 
the .exe"

For those who missed it the first time: http://www.dobeash.com/RebGUI/cookbook.html#section-2.3

BTW, if you don't have time to look at it, you may listen to my contribution 
at the DevCon

ladislav, thanks, I will have a look at it in a few days, when I 
get more time.

I noticed that Encap does not like to be closed during encapping. 
It crashes every time.

This is probably a Gregg question: You know that ftpgadget package? 
How do I compile that thing? I think I've tried just about every 
.exe in the SDK (2.6.2) and I think maybe I need to "do" some of 
those sources but there some trick to those as well. It's time just 
to consult the experts. Thanks in advance.

when I start an encapsulated binary with call and within that binary 
call yet another encapsulated binary (this is an installation process, 
hence the cascading execution), the second time, I get a:

PROGRAM ERROR: Invalid encapsulated program data.


is this a security issue? because when the binary is run from Explorer 
it runs fine.

If you run a program by double-clicking it from explorer, the working 
directory is set to the directory the program is in. Otherwise the 
working directory is either the directory you are in in the command 
prompt, that set in the shortcut properties, or the working directory 
in your program you are starting the program from. I use this to 
make file management tools that work on the current directory all 
of the time.

ResHacker has been around for a long time. Unsupported now, but works 
against most PE files. ResourceTuner seems more up to date, but costs 
(they have a trial I think).


There are some other links here: http://www.thefreecountry.com/programming/resourceeditors.shtml

I use two methods.  One a cgi script that returns the version of 
the most current distro. If the user's version is less, they need 
to update.

The other way is just to use datestamps. I build in a build time 
into the binary, and use that to check against the latest version 
on the server.  If the server version is newer, the client knows 
to update.  There are some issues with different timezones etc, but 
generally my servers run GMT, and i compute the build time at the 
time of encapping also in GMT.

A script does the upload of the new build so that the build time 
and server file times are not so different .. and I allow an error 
of 5 minutes

Start with R2. If you have time left, look at R3 too.

EVery time I move the includes around I get a different error message...

Yeah, the access functions were added to VID some time after 1.2.1, 
if I remember correctly.

but then I have to encap everty time I make a change :)

ok .. encap or prerebol every time I make a change .. I could automate 
it so that when I want to text-run app I have some batch file that 
prerebols it and runs it instead of just runs it

Carl wrote, that R3 modules don't support include at this time, check 
the http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Inclusion_Methodsand http://www.rebol.net/wiki/INCLUDE_documentation
texts

Yes but only if you bought the TV a short time before tre price goes 
down. Not years.

Graham, in principle, Carl could be speculating in not doing upgrades 
for 366 days, which I think is too easy to perceive as sinister. 
Everyone else do it on version numbers, not time period. Time periods 
are used during the final weeks before an upgrade, so a purchase 
right before an upgrade doesn't seem unreasonable.


Also he says "within the last year", but from what specific date? 
Is this a one time offer?

We're already donating our time too

Well, time donations don't give him food on the table. A better option 
would be licensing of proprietary tech, rather than selling products.

Eric Raymond considers users who donate time to be very important 
.. http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s04.html


presumably because they will continue to donate time but would not 
donate $$

hello all, as a long time licensee of rebol SDK, I upgraded to 2.7.7 
for

Gregg, that would be a good tutorial on encapping with the Gregg 
method. I don't do much encapping so each time is a hit or miss and 
I reshack manually which adds to the time.

Gregg, your work is always appreciated. And yes, I spent a few hours 
with version info myself the last time I had the great idea to change 
that. Which just reminded me that I wonder if I bothered to write 
down what did work... Oh, the insanity, oh the inanity.

If you are bored and have the time to test it i'd appreciate it. 
Here is the link to the program: http://firecaptainnyc.com//clientfiles/captain.exe

The SDK came out at the same time as the regular release, before 
the blog. Windows only for the moment.

Strangly it would run the first time on install (sdk version) but 
never there after, and it would not run from script.

Ok QT7 working. Video is slow and hangs all the time.

second time it hung now.

also... i hope we have have at least some of the slides online during 
the presentation, this time.

I just booked my flight to Milan. Here is my arrival data:
29-09-2005 18:25 in  Milan, Malpensa [MXP] TERMINAL 1


I have rented a car as well. So if someone is arriving around the 
same time let me know and we can drive together.

Chris: i can do any required modification to show.r (as long as it 
does not take too much time, that is ;), so even a mockup or something 
like that is ok with me. but - even just a collection of nice bgs 
to use would be cool! :)

I'm excited and look forward to the broadcast. Has anyone translated 
the time schedule to the different time zones?

Brock, perfect. Now I know what time I will be missing everything 
: ^)

wow, much nicer looking than last time I tested. new camera?

but, more sun this time ;)

can you think of an effect to make it draw attention when time is 
less than 5 minutes?

we'll be on altme too, and i'll have skype on, and hopefully the 
video stream works... other than that, yes, editing and encoding 
takes a lot of time.

http://breeze62116255.emea.breezecentral.com/devcon2005/a first 
try on my first two slides. I will schedule a public meeting at 2pm 
on Thursday (speaking time), where I will start the presentation 
and up to 5 users can join. It might be handy to open a free 15-day 
Breeze trial account on Macromedia if you want to add voice (e.g. 
audio conference)

Erk, Did not have time !!

Brock, as a company that is working very hard to make everything 
compatible between all the browser I can tell you that what it comes 
down to is that there are rules, but each browser company (or group) 
interprets the rules slightly differently.


The simplest example of goes wrong the most are the "assumptions." 
 EI for example will except <center> to mean center the page, and 
center pretty much everything until you turn </center> off.  


But Firefox follows the letter of the rules, and expects each object, 
like a table, to have its own <center> tags.


This is a simple visual example, it gets worse when JavaScript enters 
the picture.  Safari for example DEMANDS everything ending in a ";" 
or it simply ignores stuff.

They are almost always easy fixes, but time consuming.


Maarten, shame that Breeze will not work.  I looked at Breeze and 
voted not to use it to do a Rebol lesson.  Looked great on their 
page, but I read a lot of similar comments elsewhere on the web that 
it simply failed for too many people.  I was hoping that someone 
smart in this group would know what we could use both to solve our 
DevCon needs and the Rebol Newbie Lesson needs.


We need a way to broad cast at least one video signal, and allow 
moderated chat in the same environment for people all over the world. 
 This should be easier.  I have an Idea that might work, but will 
require some research.  I might just do this in Qtask.  Then anyone 
can log in from anywhere, talk in a group, have sub topics.  All 
we have to add is video streaming (which is actually pretty easy 
for us).  The trick is setup up the incoming real time stream, which 
I was not planning to do for a while.

Rome currently GMT +2 hours - which makes it starting at 7pm Friday 
my time.  Much easier than before :)

Maybe Gabriele just plans to have one connection at a time, for e.g. 
to ask questions?

About video streaming, Gabriele told me that it is not sure it will 
work in real time, but surely conference wil be registered and put 
online at some point.

into AltME? :-) I think he did not do so, according to what he said 
last time hee :-)

well, maybe my expectations were way too much high, after looking 
all the time at very professional looking DevCon website (kudoz to 
Chris once again!) :-)

I recall last year it was Jaime and Gabriele that setup all the video 
equipment and the feed... maybe just not enough time.