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I wonder for some time why you give long c-like prefix names to every 
functions. 
Is the context not enough? like rebol style does prefer.
Or is that you fear to forget what's doing your own code ? ;-)
Or maybe there is a technical reason behind it I missed.

No offense intedended here Doc, just a genuine question about your 
prefered coding style.

Good point and I totally agree with that. That's basically the plan 
for Red/System v2. But, as you say, it can become quickly very costly, 
so it needs to be done carefully (needs time) and *sparingly*.

Actually, I'm using the much more affordable Robotis Bioloid to play 
a bit with robotics, Red/System AVR8 experimental port (targeting 
Atmel328) was meant to let me, not only play with Arduino boards, 
but also drive Bioloids. ;-) Too bad I don't have time these days 
to go further on that port.

Thanks. I know, I'm low on glitz. It's because I don't want to take 
the preparation of those talks more time than they already do. I 
prepare by making sure that as much as possible works, and then I 
do a guided tour of it on the machine itself

It's the same reason why I have written only limited documentation. 
I have to prioritise my time to do the things that I need myself, 
and I don't need the documentation and the presentations that are 
a goal in themselves

I have finally recovered after my credit card fraud. I (hopefully) 
sent 50 EUR, Doc. Please let me know if it arriwes, as for the first 
time, the last name on my Card contains czech char, and my Paypal 
profile does not have any. Hopefully it all resolves well ...

Well I changed some text in this file, I changed it online in a black 
background box where I could not see my cursor nor the arrow pointer, 
so it sucked :( 

I thought it would be possible to edit the file offline but that 
is something to find out how to do next time ;)

Now I added a comment and it says I want to commit 182 changes into 
the master branch, which is not what I want, but Github says I want 
that. Including my comments it could be I typed in total 182 characters 
including the ones I deleted (?) but the 182 are the commits from 
the 0.3.0 branche I think. 

Me and my friend Github >:|

:-) They are plenty of git / github tutorials online, you might want 
to go through one of them. Having basic git understanding is required 
if you want to contribute code to Red, otherwise, it would take us 
much more time to review and accept it. Anyway, I agree that git 
is unnecessarily complicated, even Linus says it's not for everyone. 
We'll see how Red can solve that once it is mature enough.

Arnold: I certainly won't document nor make "little tour" for internal 
code that is in alpha stage. That would be just a waste of time. 
For the '* suffix for function names, it indicates that the function 
takes arguments from Red stack. But that might be changed in the 
future, like all the rest of the code...until we reach beta stage 
(or even until 1.0 release).

Hi Doc, did you plan to integrate some Open CL programming acces 
to Red in any future ? Here is a summary of kernel programming with 
OpenCL - and to me this seems accessible to Red, some day : http://www.manning.com/scarpino2/ch04sample.pdf
 for a larger picture summary of the beast here is the link to the 
book I referred to :  http://www.manning.com/scarpino2/(this is 
the Manning's publiaher deal of the day ,,, that's why I talk abotu 
this now). May be just a new binding and some extensions are required 
- but I would like to know more about the actual modifs required 
- when a small time is affordable for you to answer ?

Nice Doc, Thanks for taking time to answer. I'll "follow the guide" 
as we say here ! Have a nice day. Now I'll go reading  your link.

bOK Doc I agree for the speed factor But then you would do the multi-targets 
road again this time for multiple GPUs , isn't it ?

Ok, this time, it's the good one :-)

Elapsed time is reporting a weird number in Fibonacci and Mandelbrot. 
I suppose that's due to running ARMEL code on an ARMHF platform

Yes, in the computation of the time difference. As long as it stays 
within Red/System, float computation is fine, like in Mandelbrot

Like the OLPC, they're now forced to double the memory of the hardware 
- for the second time

I think it went a little too far at times, especially the lack of 
marshallers for immediate values that are more than 64 bits internally. 
I've frequently wanted to supplement it with marshallers for the 
other datatypes in R3, particularly the date, time and money types.

But no time left to look into it further

I think you don't want to understand me, but my time is up

Resolving import cycles

: we've solved that in Red/System compiler by having a simple "included 
files" list and it stops inclusion if already done once. But we do 
that at compile-time, so it's easy.

Certainly, but AOT compilation would be a big plus. Also, in Red 
we need to modularize the compilation process itself, so  we can 
do incremental AOT compilation on multi-files projects instead of 
having to rebuild everything (include runtime libraries) each time. 
We need to, somehow, match those compilation units with the higher-level 
module system (it's not the only option, but probably the most simple).

Multi-scripts would be mostly a packaging method. It could even help 
AOT compiled scripts at the script distribution phase. I'm thinking 
of install-time-compiled scripts, for instance. It would also help 
with mixed-Rebol-Red projects like what I described above for R3 
extensions. Also, it could help for data files in some cases, or 
metadata embedded in other files.

install-time-compiled scripts
 We'll support that option too.


Statically resolvable module system: that's a very useful feature 
to have, not only for compilation, but for auto-documentation generation 
too.

OK, thanks for your time, I have to see my bed... tomorow long day 
of Irish music and maybe long night ;)

I get virus alerts all the time from red. I just turn it off. The 
only thing that ever got as many hits as red was rainbowforth which 
was another very minimalistic program. AV programs seem prejudiced 
against small executables :(

well, let's not loose much time upon what just annoys us re naming 
convention of not so important language parameter ... :-)

RED-system/GTK-bindings on Ubuntu 12.10 : all the samples compile 
but GTK-Widget give an error at run time :

Only if Red does stuff that will trip the heuristics, or be run on 
a system with AVG (since they require you to pay them money to revert 
a false positive diagnosis). Which we can't know ahead of time because 
those heruistics are unpublished and thus untrustable.

I've just got an answer from F-Prot, they just whitelisted the sample 
binary I've sent to them but didn't send me any info about their 
heuristics... So I think that in order to avoid loosing my time trying 
to get any info from those AV vendors, I'll just add a specific signature 
to Red generated binaries, so that they can be whitelisted by all 
AV vendors (when possible). I can't see what else I could do, except 
warn users about some crappy AV software.

All these anti-virus program makers tell you something you already 
knew: your software does not qualify as a virus or did not contain 
any known viruses.

Or you are 1 of the worst script kiddies. Or you managed to disguise 
the virus relly well this time ;)

no, not yet, no time left for few days here ...

Doc - the less time I have, the less I am willing to spend my free 
time, just to get around various things, where I need to get to the 
point. Multiplexing on 2zone advertising, new 2zone project, initial 
works for my new photo studio, X-zone wifi network, doing some charity 
for children next week, and my primary work, Walmark, I am being 
put on 5 new projects :-)

And when RED/System will be ready for prime time... the community 
could extend and port all/parts of REBOL3 to RED/system.

Henrik speaks wise words. For the past decade, we've been occupied 
with maintaining the GNU C/C++ toolchain in Syllable. If it hadn't 
been so problematic, we could have spent that time developing the 
operating system itself, and the project might have been in a much 
better position now

It may be time to consider REBOL an idea, a good one and one that 
now needs to have its true wings in the form of Red.

Jerry: when I find time to write it. :-) Probably when I get back 
to memory manager code to add the few missing parts, like GC and 
allocation of big memory chunks, that should happen in the next weeks.

Jerry: that sounds like a realistic deadline to reach 1.0 release, 
as long as I can keep working full time on Red in 2013. Though, Red 
should be fully usable in a couple of months, all features would 
not be there, it won't run at full speed, but it will be enough to 
be able to build almost any app.

This is Red development stuff, so at any moment in time they may 
be broken

However, I rewrote it from a fairly complete Atari XL/XE emulator 
that I did in C a long time ago. The new code is a third shorter, 
mostly due to abundant use of preprocessor macros, which are less 
horrible in Red/System than in C

Yes, kind of hard to explain, as the single word change makes it 
45 times faster :-) It is just that R/S is syntactically similar 
to Red, so it might look confusing, why we don't use routine simply 
each time :-)

Every pages is carefully drawed and layouted. To make the English 
Edition of it, I have to re-layout every page. Since English Sentence 
is shorter than it's Chinese one in most of the cases, I will need 
to re-layout everypage. the aspect should be change from 4:3 to 16:9 
or 16:10. This will take some time for me to prepare.

Yeah I do, I didn't sleep much these last days and it doesn't seem 
to be changing any time soon. ;-)

Well, once after already having been in the first REBOL world for 
some time, someone asked if I was a bot...

Well, now on to creating a new "save-the-world-open-source-license". 
Why is it so hard to just pick one like MIT and release the code. 
Every day we loose, we can't get back. I expect this licensing thing 
to take at least 12 months. It's just waste of time.

I find it funny that you guys fell for it, it was clearly not Carl's 
style of writing. Besides, he already has his own open source license. 
:) (When I was in Ukiah, we went to lunch with his - at the time 
- lawyer, who created his own license... I can't find it on Wikipedia 
right now, but it used to be there.)

Ah, I was wondering, because it's not completely filled out, but 
he got me this time

No, that's another way to prove the point. You can just edit the 
time of your message. Do you want me to answer before the previous 
post? :-)

So back then, the Red/System binary took 15x the time of the C binary 
to run to completion. And yes, that was before the float optimisations 
:)

- and the DO variable is just a variable the interpreter "knows", 
certainly not some code your REBOL program is "linked to". - and, 
moreover, the 'DO variable is always resolved at run time, no matter 
how you write your REBOL program

(the dynamic = run-time resolution of variables is the property of 
the interpreter as every REBOL user knows)

the DO variable is just a variable the interpreter 

knows", certainly not some code your REBOL program is "linked to". 
- and, moreover, the 'DO variable is always resolved at run time, 
no matter how you write your REBOL program"

For example, in the GCC case, some library functions are statically 
linked with the gcc executable, however, they are also (at the same 
time) present in the libraries shipped with the gcc compiler and 
statically linked with user programs. The exception is needed only 
for the second use, not for the first one.

Also, the compiler does everything indicated in the program it can 
do at the compile time.

(at least some optimizing compilers do that, if they are able to 
detect what can be done at the compile time)

There is actually one more reason why we should not worry about the 
mezzanines. The mezzanines were published under some license some 
time ago, and that license permitted to use them in non-GPL'd programs 
already. Having that right already coming from the current lic, we 
are safe anyway.

They have strange policy on that. Back at the time, Thom refused 
to inform RT starts R3 project. I found it interesting news, he declined. 
But - OSnews degraded badly in last xy years, many "political" topics, 
no real industry news. Engadget completly rules the game ...

>>source dead?
dead?: not alive?

I think it means that if alive? is just true you do not need 'alive? 
Most of the time when you run your code it should state that it is 
alive? 

But it is not a value that is always true, like Endo's example for 
a connection status shows.

So, who do you think to suggest as "masters"? DocKimbel has time 
for it?

I would be glad to apply, but I really don't have enough time for 
that, especially if it requires reviewing/testing others code.

Doc, I would say that you should be one of the masters even if you 
don't have the time in the way of reviewing or coding if only to 
try to help steer R3 future development to be relatively in sync 
with Red's.

That's a point. I would be glad to participate with other people 
in charge as my time permits.

The JPEG format is the common 85% JPEG for the iPhone.


Double JPEG, and reads poorly to me.  "JPEG is used 85% of the time 
by most people"?

 just point the camera in the decided direction
. "Decided" is odd there. Should it be "desired"?

GCam turn* on Automatic White Balance
 - *turns

The JPEG format is the common 85% JPEG for the iPhone.
 - This still sound to me like people use JPEG 85% of the time. 


Looks great John. Any further wordsmithing would be minor, maybe 
adding some prepositions and articles to make it sound more natural, 
but it's very good as it is.

Ladislav - in 2004, when R# was slowly taking off, Carl published 
a blog article or announcement, describing R2 plugin feature. The 
supposed release was "imminent". Prior to that, Carl even contacted 
Doc to eventually stop working on R#, or so I remember. Of course, 
the announcement was just to distract ppl from alternative, keeping 
them interested in REBOL. 


Later on, I several times rightly identified some blog-post, whose 
purpose was nothing more, than to buy some time for RT, where in 
fact promissed things were not delivered. 


So - of course it is just my speculation, but with the history of 
R3 development I find it really curious to try to hype users to believe, 
that port to ARM could happen in 5 minutes, when RT was not able 
to deliver it is 5-6 years of R3 existence? And if so, it sounds 
a bit unfair to me ...


Simply put - wish Red, R3, World, whatever clone a success. It is 
just that what I would like to see is - a realistic estimates on 
any side ....

Pekr, he already did port it to ARM Linux, but at the time noone 
working on the project had an ARM machine to test with other than 
an Android phone. And porting the core to Android is the simple part; 
the host would need to be rewritten almost completely for Android 
due to the different application model. Noone was using Amiga either. 
The only alternate platform that was getting any use by the project 
members was Syllable.

Pekr, he already did port it to ARM Linux, but at the time noone 
working on the project had an ARM machine to test with other than 
an Android phone.


Maybe I fall into the "no one working on the project" category, but 
I had ARM machines available for at least the last 6 years or so. 
Last time Carl was rumored to have ported to ARM (most likely "again"), 
I was certainly around, with ARM machines, offering to test :)

(Just for reference: the last time Carl was reported to have the 
R3 core lib compiled for ARM was 2011-02.)

Arnold, just FYI, I'm tinkering with your redcompiler script, and 
will send you my version soon. When I started with REBOL, many people 
were kind enough to pass on suggestions, to make my code more REBOLish, 
so I try to do the same from time to time. It's not a critique of 
your code, just ideas you can accept or reject.

I like your comments and code and I appreciate it. My script was 
made to make it work so it was pretty straightforward. When I have 
time, hopefully asap, I will update the script on rebol.org with 
your improvements.

Thank you!

Gregg, I left the ** comments as clarification and did not spend 
a lot of time to consider if they were necessary or not. I'll have 
a look at them and clear the comments if they do not add to the flow.

Steeve: very cool work, Galaga was one of my favorite Arcade game 
of all time, I wish you could port the Arcade version to Red someday! 
;-)

Hi Brian! In order to make the ODBC extension bootable, I've commented 
out the last lines in src/boot/odbc.r, because otherwise R3 chokes 
on the word EXTEND not being bound to a context on boot time. It's 
not available as SYS/EXTEND either, but of course, there must be 
some way to use EXTEND.

maybe, simply adding a folder with the date of any automated builds. 
 this way we can easily backtrack any issues in time.

But indeed I do think for such relative simple algorithms you would 
not use calling of C functions unless you want speed etc.

@Kaj, I heard you ;) That would be on http://static.red-lang.org/red-system-specs.html
about section 14.1 examl=ple using malloc I guess. I have very limited 
time off atm :(

As soon as I have a little more time I'll hit on it!

Have to think on that a bit, and find some spare time somewhere. 
:-)

That has been my end goal for many years, so it's just a matter of 
time

me neither -- I'm seeing the Portal does not exist page; and a slightly 
odd message that it may take time for DNS changes to propagate.

@NickA-Let me think about some visuals.  Don't have much time, but 
I think this is important.

The text editor is new. I wanted to attempt it for the conference, 
but ran out of time

! would be wrong, because in time, Red will not be written in REBOL 
anymore

More great progress Kaj. I hope I can make time to play soooooon.

in fact, it is even worse - GUI is done for quite some time, yet 
no new styles/skins appear, so nothing to complain here about - anyone 
of us can contribute. I just somehow don't believe, that yet-another-fork 
will make situation any better ....

Rebol 3 Bazaar is Saphirion Rebol 3, at the moment. Saphirion wanted 
to go on GitHub, but htey ahve not time to do it. Now everybody can 
contribute and speed up Rebol 3 devolpment.

I pushed Facebook Rebol group  from 100 to 263 users now, but people 
is loosing interest in Rebol, I write the Rebol blog quite every 
day; and I'll dedicate my time also to Rebol Bazaar. I don't know 
why Rebol software is orphan and I don't care. I'll try to rise again 
it in the Olympus of best software (since nobody else do it), if 
you are with me you are welcome. I have no enemies, just friends.

Well to me it looks like there is just way too much happening to 
follow it all. Then one github repository for R3 is enough unless 
you really need another one to test and fool around with completely. 
The source being on Github is nice because I now have a copy, but 
it hinders me to contribute because I do not have the time nor the 
will to find out how to contribute changes, and when I tried I found 
it puzzling enough, so I decided it is too much trouble for now and 
to only look at the sources and not to contribute. (This goes for 
the Red github situation as well).

As an observer of open source projects since there were open scource 
projects, I see some challenges that no open source community that 
in my opinion have yet to be overcome, outside a limited vertical 
or academic market.

1.  Self-interest:  Each person views the code as their own opportunity 
to promote their own goals.  Since it costs nothing except time and 
effort and there is no remuneration, people develop forks that suit 
themselves.  When the need for them disappears, the support for them 
vanishes.  Result:  Whether a company owns the source or a company 
makes money with the source you are always dependent upon somebody 
who has more at stake than you do.  Right now that means Sapphirion.

2. Money:  Even with open source projects it takes money to push 
them forward.  If a company can make money they will pay for it themselves. 
 if somebody else needs the port or feature, they donate if there 
are enough people interested. So you either pay a company or pay 
into a project, either way you pay.

3. Leadership:  Usually a company ends up taking leadership because 
the original leaders begin to tire of the constant promotion and 
hard work.

I have seen that, but what I was asking about is the actual source 
tree that Saphirion is using. I got the impression from Robert, some 
time ago, that it was somehow being 'cleaned up' and would be made 
public in some way.

Yes, that will happen soon, Adreas will probably find some time to 
help with that as well.

Some more Android port info. Since some people around were asking 
if it will be possible to 'encap' scripts with the Android R3 I've 
spent some time researching/prototyping in this area and I think 
I can now answer this question positively. It surely will be possible 
to make "encapper" for R3 on Android and my current prototype results 
show that we'll be able to do it without the need to install any 
SDK or other bloated instalations. It will be just one good-old "encapper 
exe" that will do the job for you.

He's a young guy - I think it was a bit before their time, unfortunately. 
Hopefully they'll now take a good look.

This tricked me to program again since long time

Thanks for posting Nick. I hope to get time to read them in the next 
few days.

It works also with R3Droid!

I had absolutly no returns on this, so I guess nobody tried it. Then 
I stopped working on it, cause I have very few time for Rebol these 
days.

I think, I never understood what your changes did  :-)

the R3 chat was also down recently.  I wish I had more time to play 
on "fun" projects like this  :-)

This is fantastic Doc. I know it's still very early days, but you 
are making great progress and it's very exciting to see it come to 
life. When I copied the commands from the new blog entry, to build 
the console, and it worked the first time, perfectly, it made my 
day. Then, even doing just simple things in the console was fun.

It's fine if the Syllable Desktop configuration becomes explicit, 
but I currently don't have a reason to spend time on it

Again, it would be nice if just a copy of the Linux configuration 
were made under the name "Syllable", but currently I wouldn't want 
to ask anyone to spend time on it

Syllable versions have been downloaded several ten thousand times 
per version. If a version is current for a long time, the VM image 
could be downloaded twenty thousand times, for example

Wish I had more time.  I'd love to play with Syllable.