AltME groups: search

You know......................after much thought, what I might just 
do is write a simple ML to SVG converter.

It would be almost a 1:1 command set (in fact mostly what I would 
be doing is translating offsets).

The ML would be clean, while the emiter would allow a browser to 
be the viewer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics

Maybe SVG has pathing commands that are close. I don't know.

Henrik, It may, I have never played with DRAW.  I'm old, so I still 
think in PS (Post Script).

I'm in a conference now with Richard, and will talk to him as well.

I always like to ask around just to test teh waters.


I'm going to be curious if SVG is going to catch on.  It is a crappy 
way to store vectors

SVG has been around for a long time, but is very wide spread in the 
open source community now.

Graham, what part do you doubt?

SVG has promise, and "smells" to me like someting that will grow. 
 It badly needs a Pcode, since there is no reason to parse every 
time.

It looks very promising as a way to do what I want to do, and keep 
things standard.  Plus we might build a DRAW to SVG dialect for Reports, 
Graphs, and even light interface (like Gantt).

Current draw is basically SVG

(but I don't like SVG... I really hate to open page with 3 SVG diagrams 
and my computer does nothing else than parse and draws these diagrams... 
the worst it is that the page is from W3C, so they should know that 
thay can use PNG for these images.. it would require less space to 
transfer and my computer could do better things while displaying 
such a page.

PNG can't scale, no? And I can be PNG file smaller than vectors transferred? 
The slowness of whole stuff is another thing.  Dunno if we can support 
SVG out-of-the-box. We are using AGG, while the rest of the world 
is using Cairo.

And since Adobe has Mocaromedias knowhow, why thay should use SVG 
scripting... but with such a corporations one never knows

it's a shame I don't know the link... I would post you the SVG source... 
how large it can be

Don't forget that SVG is XML so it can be very large if you draw 
something more complex

Yes, DRAW is MUCH better than SVG though.  Hence I was thinkning 
about just doing a dialect mostly in DRAW with an SVG emiter.
There is SVGZ (zipped SVG), but Pcode would be better.

PNG is a container...so it can contain Raster, Vector, well, actually 
it can contain anything (sort of like Amiga IFF format).

I'm not agains vector graphics... I just don't like SVG

The point of SVG is that it is the lowest common denom...

That will ALWAYS suck, but at least you know things will render.

And I'm FOR vector, but also don't like SVG.  But if it is a standard, 
I will support.  It will mean I can send you a graphic, and you can 
display it with just a browser.

Why there are no SVG maps but everybody is using PNG layers?

Check this out: http://croczilla.com/svg/samples/svgtetris/svgtetris.svg

Will there be an 'save/svg option for it in 1.3 ?

I mean when SVG is supported will it be interactive for rebol gfx 
only or can it be exported also?

I am not sure AGG supports SVG directly? I expect it being very capable 
vector engine, so we have to build kind of SVG parser plus viewer 
ourselves? Or am I wrong?

the SVG view can be firefox/mozilla... thats why i asked if view 
can save/svg  ;-) that would extend Rebol View into a Very usefull 
SVG tool as well !!

about SVG: i don't think that will be supported natively. it's not 
that hard to do that in rebol, a cyphre has something working already.

Rebolinth anyone can write an SVG emitter, just like there is a Flash 
emitter. I think this complex and unique enough that it shouldn't 
be included in the base. But 3rd party script will do.

where is SVG support? What browser it starts from? When most of old 
browsers will be replaced/reinstalled? I think that there is still 
one or even more - let's say two years to see those technologies 
settle a bit ...

I think my journal (blog) whatever may be useful because I can see 
a lot of Visual Studio developers moving to REBOL - especially when 
3 is fully fledged. Things like VID3 / SVG Graphics etc will be very 
powerful. If I had one comment so far it would be not to rest on 
your laurels as far as the built in widgets are concerned - Everything 
is moveing to a 'RICHER' experience for the user, we can't get away 
with grey-old programmes anymore. The biggest internet buzzword of 
late is RIA  (Rich Internet Applications). With broadband, users 
expect the client side to be richer. REBOLS simplicity and size mean 
it should get miles ahead of the competition. Bill Gates's keynote 
speach recently covered this particular subject.

Shadwolf: I analyzed your SVG example with nested MATRIX command 
and found little bug in matrix calculation. Thanks for pointing this 
out! I know the solution so it will be fixed in the next Rebol View 
build.

SVG matrix (a b c d e f) -> AGG scale [a d] rotate [b c] translate 
[e f] can I do this ???

it's yet a kind of miracle for me totally noob in AGG and in SVG 
to have arrived to the actual point of the svg renderer. Lot of code 
and ideas have helped me a lot Ashley is trully a idea fountain. 
Those idea only claim to be worked again and again to arrive to a 
very very good and usefull tool

I would like to know when the problem with Agg Matrix will be solved 
and when Carl plans to integrate in REBOL/AGG a radiant function 
that can better feet with SVG datas  ? I started 3 month ago an SVG 
engine and since then I'm stuck because of those 2 problems... SVG 
without transformation matrix and without gradients it's like nothing 
.... ( see greoup SVG renderer for more informations and test code)

Cyphre thank you for your answer You need more infos on Gradient 
here is the official webpage on the topic hopes it  could help you 
to make a svg gradient complying fonction in draw  ...:)

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/pservers.html

Cyphre there is no missing thing in AGG  gradient the coordinate 
datas given by SVG gradient data block is different. To make it short 
and simple SVG work with area pourcentage of filling (what ever the 
 size of the area to colorize is you will allways have red 20% blue 
40% black  40% if red blue black are your 3 colors that are used 
to make the gradient effect) Then we have a vectorial information 
that  give the orrientation of the gradient effect. SVG gradeint 
are linear, circular or parterned (in most case linear is applyed 
...). REbol AGG gradient use area offset you have a start offset 
a end offset and the  colors are degraded along this vector  nothing 
more nothing less you have no area coloring infos. This is if  my 
recalls are good the differencies betwin AGG gradient and SVG gradient.

and the proposed solution is? Can we have some helper parameters 
in rebol AGG to allow SVG kind of parameters? Are AGG gradients subset 
of SVG? Is there 1:1 equation, so that we can transform between the 
two? Maybe the problem is a bit more complex?

Pekr and the solution proposed by Cyphre  was to insert to agg in 
built fonction complying with SVG datas ...

Pekr yes we can do adaptation but this will enslow dramatically the 
SVG rendering. My goal is to make a SVG widget capable for REbGUI 
 to dispaly graphic content like tool bars, logo etc so faster is 
the render better it's

he can create e.g. gradient-svg command ...

I am not talking about adaptation in rebol level code, but directly 
in rebol AGG layer = C code - that should not be slow, no? Cyphre 
would then expose it via e.g. gradient-svg new command ...

yes that was what he had in mind and that perfect feet my need  ^^. 
But he asked me in Carl's only  group some more detailled informations 
about SVG way to handle gradients. Th'at why i give him the link 
to the gradient SVG official documentation and why i make this simple 
explaination ;:)

yes the actual svg render have been made in one week it's pretty 
fast and the code is very tiny ( 400 lines for a svg to AGG/Vid rendering 
engine that not so mutch  ^^)

basically SVG is a XML  structure but for several reasons i choose 
to pass thru a XML 2 Object converstion and then I  treat the SVG 
infos converted to rebol objet structure ;)

main reaseon to act like that xas svg recursion structure is a nightmare 
if you use parse or xml-parse

http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad05.zip
http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad06.r

see those link  05.zip countains an sVG sample file and the 05 code 
 06.r is the more advanced version i made

http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad06.zip

cyphre :

here you have a tiny example of gradient representation taken from 
the webpage http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/pservers.htmlwitch explain 
the gradient format for SVG 
Simple linear gradient commented by me  ^^
<g>
    <defs>
# LinearGradient definitions 
        <linearGradient id="MyGradient">
#first color using 5% of the space to color
            <stop offset="5%" stop-color="#F60" />
# second color using 95% of the space to color
            <stop offset="95%" stop-color="#FF6" />
     </linearGradient>
  </defs>

# HERE you have the rect definition using the LinearGradient witch 
id is MyGradient

   <rect fill="url(#MyGradient)" stroke="black" stroke-width="5" x="100" 
   y="100"  width="600" height="200" />  
</g>    

So as you can see the color pourcentages

I hope you get all the informations now to make gradient function 
in AGG/Draw complying with SVG informations

I tryed svg-demo-shad06.r under linux with wine rebol/view 1.3.1d 
and with the rebol/view 1.3beta version and the SVG renderer script 
present the same matrix tra	nsformation problem but the good news 
is that the rebol/view 1.3 for windows  and the rebol/view 1.3 for 
linuw are working both on linux using svg-demo-shad06.r script

Draw SVG/AGG have progress so far that I cannot catch up with what 
it supports currently.


Does anyone have a quick feature overview of this? either a link 
or point form will do.

warn me when update is done ^^ I could finalise my SVG renderer widget 
for rebgui  ^^

but some folks need some things to move on, shadwolf will surely 
want to know the status of SVG compatible gradients offsets :-)

shadolf i dead waiting lol  ... Well SVG renderer widget  for RebGUI 
is not a urgent stuff at all ... Well yes if the 2 needs i have are 
integred to next rebol/view AGG  release it would be really nice 
this will allow us to enlight  rebGUI look with scalable graphics 
^^. next thing once the 2 needs i have are available will be to work 
on the renderer engine widget to make it as fast as possible to allow 
a lot of  SVG content to be rendered without impacting rebgui performencies.

we have to fixe too the usuabilitie of SVG content into RebGUI too 
but i think this is a last issue to discuss .Ashley propose the idea 
of a svg renderer widget to be included into RebGUI. I took his code 
and propose a more advanced version and this work allow me to pop 
out some needs to perfectly comply  the rendering task. But the main 
discution on what we are going to do ith the renderer once we have 
it is not started yet. I think many things can be expected from a 
SVG renderer widget in REBGUI  but then  it depends too on the quality 
to the resulting renderer.

Terry, what you should probably realise is, that that are only probably 
TWO libraries for vector graphics in the open-source world - one 
being AGG, second one being Cairo, library which was selected by 
Mozilla foundation, Apple etc. to do SVG. Both are very good work 
imo ...

In answer to Cyphre's question, my opinion is that changes that prevent 
(or make difficult) SVG rendering are not desirable. So if the proposed 
change(s) don't hinder SVG rendering them I'm all for them.

Cyphre question :  i think the same ..  gradient is good the way 
it is for pure draw coders (i you have to make an SVG to DRAW translator 
(my case) you only need gradients that take in charge other kind 
of values nothing more...)

DIDEC you get the point ...  the ask is un precise. My case is particular 
a gradient iss that take in charge percent and vertorial orientation 
to feet SVG datas would be a plus. I think gradient the way they 
are yet implement in Draw/AGG are better than the SVG way. SVG is 
huum less natural less close to human way of thinking and in that 
philosophy it feets perfectly with the REBOL .

in my svg render i use push to make a drawing layer order and that 
work pretty good

SVG support the element  in a stackable way so it's good to be able 
to reproduce that feature with draw/AGG push

for example  you draw a black cirle and on top of it you put 2 spots 
yellow and a yellow line  SVG keep the track of that and rebol drew/AGG 
is abe re produce it perfectly...

what was particularly fixed in agg? can svg work continue?

Svg  works need a dubeged matrix  -> scaling problem  and  gradients 
that feet ratio  information and   not  fixed area  ^^ those things 
can be script coded but this will complicate the SCV rendering engine 
and makes it slower for nothing ...

SVC = SVG

josh hum does it work with sp: -2 ? ( joking lol ) Cyphre thank you 
very mutch  and carl too for your hard work i'm a little far those 
last month from rebol ... but  i still have lot of  wants i will 
restart to work on the SVG rederer once all will be set /fixe if 
you have suggestions  about the svg engine make them to me i ill 
try to  add them too. ( a less 1000 lines SVG engines this will be 
very nice and flexible ...)

josh negative size for a line .... the issue no one would imagine. 
 lol but a good debug  lol this kind of issue can be really annoying 
for an miss parsing of the SVG data content for example -> crash 
so you  stend lot of hours trying to see if the crash comme from 
your SVG renderer engine from the SVG file or from rebol or from 
the engine or rebol/view VM ^^ you are right a message comming fromt 
the VM like "Error the size entrer for the lline is negative  " isntead 
of the vm crash would be nice  ^^

Cyphre as far as i test matrix problems have been solved in REBOL/view 
1.3.2 

this image was done with 1.3.1 http://shadwolf.free.fr/SVG-rend-compare.jpg

This one is done wth 1.3.2  http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-renderer-v07.jpg


now i have to found the good way to exploit and work  with some SVG 
datas. the gnome keayboard image is good but i still get some scaling 
problem with the orange part of the blender logo image  (the disposition 
is good but the sacle is not good )
see:
http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-renderer-v07-2.jpg

so as you can see the compositing of the relative orange part is 
good it's relative position seems to be good too but now that's the 
scale wich is not good it"s like if it was disabled .... 


My SVG rendering engine is designed to work perfectly with ink scape 
SVG format.

Shadwolf, please send me the original SVG data of the logo image 
you are having problems with.

oki i send  you by mail right now   the  lastest svg engine script. 
I identified the  matrix compositing  line code   search  "Cyphre 
!!!"  in the  script. I added the svg file with the  blender logo 
(witch  use tranform matrix information)

line 480 of svg engine script code

arg  this email adress doesn't work any more <[cyphre-:-volny-:-cz]>:

I make a  zip archive SVG renderer  script lastest  + svg file for 
 blender  on my  ftp

http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-cyphre.zip

cyphres did you looked at my  SVG rendere and the matrix problem 
in it ?

yes, that is the only purpose..but by 'exporting' you have to parse 
the fla/swf to get the compound shapes. All other formats works in 
SVG-like rendering way (ie shapes are z-ordered and rendered one 
over another)

You would have plenty of work with converting SVG exported file from 
Flash IDE back to the Flash compound shapes ;)

I think that guys are interested in SVG compatibility issues, to 
have SVG compatible renderer :-)

Is the AGG implementation capable of drawing filled donuts such as 
the third example in - http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/painting.html#FillProperties

From Cyphre:


Yes, the DRAW dialect  has FILL-RULE keyword which should work the 
same as described in the svg documentation. And yes, we need to improve 
the documentation and maybe even change the arc syntax. Any feedback 
on this is welcome.


BTW the ARC shape command should work according the http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/paths.html#PathDataEllipticalArcCommands

I would like our agg command structure to concentrate upon compatibility 
with SVG, if possible and if it would be benefical to us. E.g. I 
remember we could not produce compatible gradients ...

Did we ever get a successful SVG -> DRAW shape converter?

I need a basic function to convert a monochrome SVG drawing to SHAPE.

That was just an example. If you want to use some existing SVG drawing, 
you surely want the result to be displayed identically, don't you? 
But - I know nothing about it, so let's better wait for what those 
who tried to experiment with SVG conversion will say ...

svg-question-mark: to-shape {SVG path}

draw: [
	scale 0.000002 0.000002 ; for required precision
	shape svg-question-mark
]

I had a simple SVG -> Draw script which Shadwolf took and enhanced, 
but it barfed on more complex SVG's due to some inherent limits in 
draw ... Shadwolf can tell you exactly what the issues are. If they've 
already been solved or lessened under v3 then that's great news indeed.

well My svg engine is working and got trouble only with matrix calulations 
due to an odd bug in the adapted version. Next i don't like the way 
my SVG works  I wish to be able to do it  in plain parse way (My 
method in not really elegant but it works fine  in most cases SVG 
is an XML file so the XML data is converted to REBOL  objects using 
parse and then i process those objects to convert into draw/Agg instructions). 
That was the fastest way i found at that time since what was important 
to me was the result not the beauty of the processing way.

http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad06.ris the lastest version 
of my SVG engine. Well in fact parse gives me head haches only when 
i have to parse XML  datas ...

what i like too is that once you get the conversion to draw dialect 
 done you can keep simply the draw instructions instead of the SVG 
ones  ^^

i done a  guitare notes easy learning  rebol script  using that SVG 
engine (to save some time) http://shadwolf.free.fr/guitare-manche.zip

that show how you can input an svg image and use it to draw on top 
of it  using AGG (we can imagine too animation displaying too etc...)

Ive updated my old pastebin (sorry for its name) so that you can 
test Oldes's Pygment lexer (and you can have html,latex,svg,etc outputs) 
: http://clojurepastebin.appspot.com/

1) Internet updating: I have a crude solution in mind that will remove 
the need for Zip downloading in 0.4.x.

2) caret: agreed, but note that the system is part of View itself 
not VID ... so very hard to change / improve (try to get it working 
with centered text for example)

3) How close to a working SVG renderer are we? ;) I'd really like 
to incorporate scaleable Icons, especially since the Tango links 
I posted previously have all their icons in dual PNG / SVG formats.

3) How close to a working SVG renderer are we? ;) I'd really like 
to incorporate scaleable Icons, especially since the Tango links 
I posted previously have all their icons in dual PNG / SVG formats


So as SVG  master (yet again drunk ???? hum yes but that's last year 
night and first new year one so it's allowed to be hum lets say a 
little joyfull ) The answer is  easy SVG renderer is yet fully working 
as the matrix problem was internal to the VM and not to my code I 
simply need to disable the commented matrix line of code in my rendering 
engine and make the testing with the wonderfull, marvelous, extraordinary, 
free of bug version of REBOL/View 1.3.2 (?) The last issue is the 
gradient formating ...  and then we get a full 1 to 1  WYSIWYG svg 
rendering engine. This needs some testing too and some optimisation. 
You know me I seek first of all the full fonctionnality then i see 
if optimisations can be done to enhance the project (and in lucky 
rare cases my brain pop out a yet optimised solution but inspired 
by previous works like for listview widget wich was designed in an 
optimised way beacause of many inspiration projets were yet available 
 for this topic... )


For caret  system yes .... hum this remark was undirectly adressed 
to Carl we yet talked a lot on this topic on View Group last year 
 but it's good some time to recall previous unsolved discution and 
try to see if we can help Carl to change the design at least apporting 
to him some fresh ideas or only poping out why we found it really 
annoying based on our experiences and intents (like my mini ritch 
text editing widget using AGG to render the typed text  for example 
( see AGG group for code it's not long it's not fully working and 
it perfectly show as hard the handle of the caret position is!) .

For ppl interrested in  SVG rendering engine. My  tonight work  and 
 test on the engine   is resumed in the AGG topic. To resume before 
matrix bug as causing bad scale and bad position.  Now we have good 
position but still bad scale  i post screen cap samples and we can 
see that the evolution is good  betwin View 1.3.1 and 1.3.2

tree view is one of the some other widgets i plan to make but ( there 
is allways a but)  i would like to make it svg compliant for  symbols 
(but this can be done after wise) what is important for me is the 
ability to set a symbol system (you can use default one or give your 
own symbols for group leaft),  auto show of the slider according 
the level of it , function that handle the selection when you clic 
on a leaf you can or get it's value and post treat it or run a callback 
called on leaft clic event  the last point is the data structure 
common structure used by many many prjects is [ "group_name" [ "subgourp" 
[ "leaf1" "leaf2" "leaf3"]] "goup_name2" ["leaf" "leaf" "leaf" ] 
] if text is followed by a block! this means the text is a gourp 
label other wise it's a leaf label

On the draw block comments I agree 100% ... I'd like to refactor 
*all* draw block code into a central container where it can live 
side by side with SVG code [once we have RebGUI support for that].

Yes to the first question, with six widgets not making the cut (I'll 
upload them later):

	area2 (area plus horizontal scroll ... does not work correctly)
	auto-fill (needs to be reworked)
	list-view (code needs a bit more work)
	spinner (not completed)
	icon (awaiting SVG renderer code)
	svg-tool-bar (awaiting SVG renderer code)

Alternate distributions: let's keep it simple for the moment ...

Excellent. If he can also have a quick look at SVG Renderer (SVG 
-> AGG) that would be good (scaleable icons / tool-bar have been 
blocked on this for a long time).

I really wish SVG had won, or, well, ANYTHING had won.

I should retake my svg engin and try to make it in full raw parse 
 ^^

shadwolf: where's your svg engine ?

http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad06.zip

1 pass i convert SVG raw datas from the XML format to rebol objets 
than i convert this rebol object (with all the datas in it to REBOL/VIEW/DRAW 
 instructions