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I think there is great potential to unifying all the tools that are 
forming now: pdf-maker, AGG, SVG input and makedoc2. Allow these 
things to talk to eachother! imagine making a drawing in AGG or import 
an SVG into a DRAW and then use the very same block with layout-pdf. 
Future versions of makedoc could print pdfs as well as HTML through 
pdf-maker. by letting these tools use eachother, the combination 
could be a very fast and powerful document creation system.

Agreed. Has anyone done (or is working on) an AGG based SVG renderer? 
Or an SVG2DRAW converter? If so, there's a wealth of SVG content 
out there that we could use ...

I'm thinking SVG icon sets for a start.

we made a start a couple of years ago but didn't get far
http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla/display/SVG+Dialect

ashley: IIRC, Cyphre has a SVG parser that outputs a draw block. 
but i think it was unfinished.

Yes he has. The Tiger head was "stolen" from an SVG source ;-)

Cyphre, or others - I am curious. I just read latest blogs about 
Mozilla technology - they will switch rendering to Cairo open source 
library. It will handle svg as well as the rest of rendering too. 
IIRC Cairo was already mentioned here. I wonder how AGG compares?

All I know is that the classic SVG Tiger demo ( Viewtop/Tests/View/Tiger.r 
) looks better than any others that I've seen...

I have SVG viewer called SVG-LITE in works...

SVG Demo: http://www.dobeash.com/files/svg-demo.zip

a svg renderer in only 5k .... What a great job  !!!

is that "full" SVG renderer/parser?

but overall it is good - feels realtime. I wonder if SVG has future? 
Is that new replacement for technology as DHTML, which never became 
widely used? There is plenty of W3C XML stuff, I wonder if they keep 
that under control or what the future of the web holds ....

PekR yes 5K  script for SVG parsing to Draw/AGG then rendering engine 
AShley have done thanks to REBOL/View 1.3 the smallest and fastest 
SVG renderer I saw until now ;)

I'm downloading inkshape I will start to provide to ASHLEY a set 
of SVG icons in totally abandon licence ....

my first svg draw make with inkscape (linux/win32..) http://shadwolf.free.fr/new-file.svg

but it seems that inkscape SVG files are not properly supported by 
svg-demo ...

there seems to be some slightly difference between what Inkscape 
and SVGDemo renders.

eg. blender.svg

on Inkscape, there's an orange fill... on svg demo, it appears as 
a black fill.


I am using the latest /View...so, probably not a /View version problem.

Pekr: SVG is pretty bloated so don't expect you will have 'full' 
SVG parser in 5k :-)

yeksoon the .svg files provided with svg-demo.R are do using sidopodi 
workbench

I use inkscape to make new-file.svg and this one doesn't load at 
all

dont' worrym none of my test svg files worked with it...it is understandable 
as Ashley surely make this in a few hours.

so I think as inkscape is a very very good SVG  work bench we have 
to support this format instead of the SVG from Sidopodi (deprec and 
not working under win2k) to favorise the usage of rEBOL/View + svg 
scripts capable + inkscape

I had to spent *lot* of time to be able show around 60% of SVG files. 
Unfortunately I cannot share the code as it will be part of commercial 
app soon.

I think taking as dev reference my file new-file.svg made with Inkscape 
is a good start point (this image is simple but a good sample of 
what we need to support :)

THE GIMP is SVG CAPABLE TOO (all OS) so I use InkScape And when I 
ritch a limit with inkscape I make the complement with the gimp :)

I'm preparing a complicated SVG image make with inkscape to have 
a good working base

here you have a like to my haevy  SVG drawing

TheGIMP SVG rendering capability is very poor ...

here is the png to be useas reference for tuning the SVG rendering 
Engine http://shadwolf.free.fr/fraisier.png

Doesn't work with this Rebol image : http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla/display/show+rebol+svg+logo

openoffice.org Draw can also save in SVG, if I remember correctly

Pekr: the SVG Demo is just a quick and dirty prototype. I'm just 
going to get it to the stage where it can display simple SVG icons 
(for RebGUI). If someone else wants to write an SVG viewer that is 
fully SVG 1.1 (with 1.2 around the corner) compatible then good luck 
... I'm *not* going to be doing that! ;)


yeksoon: see above comments. I'm tweaking the SVG Demo code on an 
SVG icon by icon basis. As long as it works for the icons I use (or 
intend to use) I'm happy - I don't guarantee the code will work with 
anything other than the specific SVG files I have tested it on.


Cyphre: SVG is such a "flexible" standard isn't it? :) One question; 
how did you map SVG "path d" commands (e.g. <path style=... d="M 
10 10 C 20 20 ... z") where there is no "z" command to close the 
"shape" (i.e. the AGG shape command closes by default).


shadwolf: Having our own SVG icons is a good idea as we don't have 
to worry about licence / distribution issues and we can tweak the 
generation to make it as AGG compatible as possible. To do that we 
need to settle on *one* tool so as we generate consistent SVG code, 
and we should generate SVG that uses a single unit of measure, preferably 
pixels, as it's a real pain trying to handle multiple units of measure 
within the same file. I'll continue this discussion in the RebGUI 
group.

Ashley: Exactly! I love the "SVG flexibility" especially when writing 
parser for it :-) Regarding closing the shape. We haven't seen so 
far any SVG path without Z/z at the end so that's why we decided 
to let the patch closed automatically by default. Maybe we should 
add some keyword to leave shape opened?

Yes please! A large number of the SVG icons I looked at rely on this.

I think trying to arrive to the level to inkscape in our own SVG 
DRAW MAKER software will take more than one year to redone it with 
REBOL... So to avoid loss of time we can yet work on the engine for 
rebgui feeting to InkScape SVG format then we can start working to 
our own SVG DRAW MAKER made in full REBOL... One thing that afraid 
me a little is the flexibility of the SVG format as it can be very 
different how to support any SVG file comming from any EDITOR ? For 
me SVG appears to me to be close to what we done with MakeDoc format. 
Today we have many MD like format all very good but to make a Viewer 
in rebol that support them all it wil be very very difficult.

Remember these days as the beginning of the end of rebol UI :-) Instead 
of beautifull dialects we will use junk as can be seen in .svg files 
:-)

in all cases SVG in rEBOL/View is only a common base to allow lot 
of reuse of this format you have 20  draw/AGG guru around the world 
and 200 .000 SVG drawers that use WebBRowser Plugins and SVG EDITOR 
like photoshop, the gimp or InkScape ...

... Adding SVG support is a feature un plus you have to keep in mind 
that the rendering is done in Draw ... As we don't have the time, 
the volunty etc to make an Hight LEVEL graphic draw sofware that 
instead of outputing SVG output ready to show AGG code ...

but i'm agree betwin SVG and AGG I would prefer an AGG draw maker 
tool ... And the good thing would be that this king of editor outputs 
SVG, DRAW/AGG and bitmap format as well with out any change or loos

I can understand that, but I think that that way eventually View 
will fade and die slowly, with dialects like Flash dialect, SVG dialect. 
You will teach ppl SVG, Flash, not Rebol and maybe you will find 
out, that you eventually don't need Rebol at all ...

as a deployment, the aproach of utilising SVG or links to whatever 
libraries is a good thing to have, I just hope it will not over-grow 
us and we will not find ourselves using other tools and environments 
using more than rebol ;-)

SVG is a Vectorial description for graphic content

what is more easier and productiv (sorry but if you spent 3 weeks 
to draw the logo of your website in DrawAGG commands you will be 
fired and that's all) Making a description of your image in pure 
draw dialect ? Making it in SVG using a SVG Drawer editor then integer 
it to a VID renderer to have the snapshot ?  And then if your boss 
or client found that the produced graphic doesn't complity to his 
thought how difficult would it be to modify it in AGG code (pure 
texte no graphical editor) in SVG (there you have an editor and you 
can retake the file and then modify it very easyly ) or in bitmap 
once produced it's very hard to modify (a part if you save it into 
an intermediate format ? )

SVG  is a step In my mind to exploite AGG ready code we have no tools 
and we have too less gurus to make a relevent tool to improve production 
...

that is all fine. I just tried point out, how it could end-up. You 
may end-up using rebol less and less, as you start with SVG, you 
will use Flash, html, java-script, etc. :-)

our goal is SVG and rebol.  Saying hey guys look how easy is to integer 
to a rebol VID based software SVG graphics of all kind to make your 
ui or enlight it if you need it  is benefic for rebol

so SVG is a medium no a goal ...SVG alone is nothing else than text 
...

Pekr imagine you compose you graphics with inkscape (SVG editor very 
complete and free) then you set your animation process with AGG and 
then you put it online in your site. People come along in you web 
site make the click on the link to you new file then rebol/view plugin 
launch and run you SVG graphics with you AGG animation. In front 
of that you have flash sure but flash is made by a specialised in 
the grpahic industry company and not by a generic company ;)

I'm actually working on svg-demo.r code in order to extend it translation 
support

see new group SVG RENDERER for my actual source code ;)

I don't really understand how to use matrix (global ones and local 
ones) I'm try to make a SVG renderer so matrix are some times declared 
first globally for all the content of a group <g></g> and into the 
primitives of those block so how to add the matrix in the AGG code

with my actual implementation I see on screen the group well renderer 
(all the elements of the groupe are coherent) but the group items 
are not well positionned there is a gap betwin the not gouped part 
of the image and the grouped one (I'm working with the file blender.SVG)

matrix in SVG are in this format matrix [a b c d e f ] (decimal!) 
and this represent a transform  matrix of this from 
[ a c e]
[ b d f ] 

[ 0 0 1] so I really don't know if this is the same for a matrix 
in draw AGG.  As the gap is not very  hudge this means for me that 
the AGG matrix i close to be handled the same as the SVG ones ...

according to the SVG documentation a = scale X b =  skew X c = skew 
Y d = scale Y e = translate X f =  translate Y. For example in blender.svg 
file the group global matrix is  matrix [1.462522 0.0 0.0 1.462522 
-11.43136 -22.46338] (this is made with raw datas from the file no 
more compute than retrieving and converting the datas from dtring! 
to decimal!) So according to the informations I read in the SVG doc 
this matrix represent a scale X/Y of 1.46  and a translation X/Y 
of -11.43 and -22.46.  I'm working with a premaid scaling environnement 
applyed to the coord of the shapes maybe I need to apply this scale 
to the a b and e f value of the SVG matrix when I build the matrix 
 in AGG.

scalling that is applyed to shapes coordinates is scale-x: size/x 
/ svg-size/x  scale-y: size/y / svg-size/y ( this allow resize handling)

to help you figure out my rendering problem I make a little composition 
image that shows on left the SVG image well rendered by inkscape 
and on the right part the svg-demo-shadwolf.r rendering ....

http://shadwolf.free.fr/SVG-rend-compare.jpg

shadwolf: the format of MATIX command has the same argument order 
as in SVG specs.

Can you provide SVG source and your DRAW source of  the image you 
posted as a problematic one?

sure http://shadwolf.free.fr/blender.svgand http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shad03.r

since version 03 I have changed the way to handle svg content but 
I don't inserted the transformation support in those lastest version 
(04 and 05) My other problem is how to suppoer localtransformation 
information and global one. So transformation informations are attached 
to a group and some other are attached to a draw primitive so How 
to represent it to AGG code

how to convert SVG gradient information to AGG one to make it simplier 
SVG use vector information x1  X2 y1 y2  they use a list of color 
with there position along the  vector ( from 0 to 1)  and they encap 
transformation information too So how to translate this to the fil-pen 
gradient linear exploitable issues

sorry I make a mistake the code with the matrix support is http://shadwolf.free.fr/svg-demo-shadwolf02.r

OK.  what's the secret to getting plugin working in IE 6?  I've read 
how IE supposedly doesn't like embed tags, but that isn't true insofar 
as I've been using embed only for SWF files.  Same with SVG.

is IE7 svg capable?

thanks for the link... so no svg on my new site... darn.

so test it send bugs report to rambo and we will get a pretty good 
version

It's yet very good to have a working alpha version for MacOSX after 
only 1 month of the Win32 1.3  stable release. Even in the 1.3 stable 
version for win 32  we have remaining bugs like agg matrix key word 
or gradient effect converion from SVG

inkskape edit very well the set of icons you provided with svg-demo.r 
;)

It would be good to see more REBOL SVG tools.

I am a bit surprised not to see any DRAW SVG tool yet.... even just 
a small one.

first we need to learn th SVG format ...

http://www.dobeash.com/files/svg-demo.zipfor Ashley SVG renderer 
drawer script

do you ppl think that SVG along with CSS are future of web? That 
html as we know it today, will be put to rest in few years?

I want rebol clone of Scala multimedia better :-) SVG is nice, but 
I want things to move and move fast and smoothly - impossible today 
...

I found the proper SVG output  format for InkScape it's SVG Plain 
text (this format is lighter than the normal SVG output fomat

here is the fraisier.svg version ;)

http://shadwolf.free.fr/fraisier-plaintext.svg

we save 4ko and the format seems to be more close of the one of Sodipodi 
(witch have been used to draw the iconset gived by Ashley in svg-demo.zip)

I'm playing with ashley's svg-demo.r script code in order to understand 
it and know what are missing in it. I took as reference the blender.svg 
file because it's tiny and half rendered.  I constate that <g></g> 
block that encap transformations and transformed things is not support 
and LinearGradient is not supported too ...

I have done the set of svg icons you ask me using inskscape plain 
text svg (the lighter svg format ...) you can get it here http://shadwolf.free.fr/RebGUI-svg-icons.zip
 .It's not author marking and it's my own work so no problems with 
rights issue.

now we have to focus on the widget SVG that can renderise them ;)

Looks good under Opera. Has the SVG renderer you and Vincent have 
been working on got to the stage where it can display these? If so, 
post a link and I'll integrate that in. The entry point will be a 
function named 'load-svg in a separate file so we don't have to worry 
about "widget clutter", and I've already added a new 'icon widget 
and updated toolbar widget which use the 'load-svg function ... so 
we should be ready to go.

SVG format is so blury that you can't match it to a predeterminate 
struture you have to do a structure analyst for each leaf of the 
the object tree then get the needed information from leaf and nodes 
then convert them to rebol then apply the draw

uh, is that because of flexibility of the SVG format, or because 
of XML deriver beurocracy?

I think that's because technologie issue (graphics libs that would 
be used to normally render SVG files to screen are different from 
AGG ) then you have plenty of possibilities SVG can be seen as a 
VID  widget tree where youonly get relevent informations but the 
structure have some recusing consept

Pekr I don't think so if you see the AGG library web site you will 
see lot of example of you to use AGG with SVG ... But there we are 
working in C++ and not in REBOL ...

so what you are trying to say is, that AGG itself allows easier SVG 
rendering, but our Rebol wrapper is not so flexible?

It's a hard job to handle SVG structure and make our decoder able 
to decode all needed  information that's all ;)

and in AGG we have differencies in the liearGradient definition that 
what we have in SVG

for lineargradient SVG gives us a transform information (can be matrix, 
rotation,scale , skew, etc...) then we have an offset  x1 X2 y1 y2 
then we have  color informations spread method

actually my main problem i how to build path to reach information 
into the SVG rebolien converted object tree

yess I'm hardly developping SVG renderer widget as flexible and complete 
support of the SVG file format

I'm trying to make SVG rendering widget but as you can see in sVG 
RENDERER group I have many problems in translation and until now 
I'm stuck so maybe it's the appropriate time for me to seek for the 
accomplishement of yet on cooking widgets...

Latest build available at: http://www.dobeash.com/files/RebGUI-032.zip


*** Unzip this file into your existing RebGUI 0.3.0 distribution. 
Requires View 1.3. ***

Highlights include:

	- New keycode handler (to assign keystrokes to actions)

 - Tab focus expanded to include button handling (see %focus-demo.r 
 for details)
	- Buttons are now image based
	- Number of password widget fixes

 - Added basic SVG support (proof of concept at this stage - shadwolf 
 is working on *real* SVG support)
	- Added icon and svg-toolbar widgets to support above
	- Large number of bug fixes

 - Bit of code refactoring (split layout logic out of display function)

Latest build available at: http://www.dobeash.com/files/RebGUI-033.zip


*** Unzip this file into your existing RebGUI 0.3.0 distribution. 
Requires View 1.3.1 ***


Minor synchronization release to align with latest REBOL/View 1.3.1 
builds and documentation. I've also removed all SVG related code 
until such time as AGG fixes allow SVG Renderer project to complete.

Thanks, these will be fixed in the next build. I'm assuming that 
all other issues are resolved as of this build, so if anyone has 
others (even if previously raised) that have not been addressed then 
now is the time to raise (or re-raise) them. Please exclude issues 
relating to the following unfinished widgets:

	- table
	- grid
	- svg-toolbar
	- icon (SVG-based)
	- auto-fill
	- spinner
	- menu

Had to increase width to account for longer three letter day abbreviations 
(previous version used two letters), but having each cell being a 
square yielded too much white space (especially when the last row 
has no entries in it). "<" and "<<" buttons will eventually be replaced 
with SVG icons when support for that is added.

Thanks for your answers, Ashley. Will SVG support be RebGUI system-wide?

Pekr, yes. The code for svg-toolbar, icon, etc widgets is all there 
... just waiting on SVG renderer project (which in turn is waiting 
on some REBOL/AGG fixes).