AltME groups: search

in fact, my relations can be spread across the net

The Gripe:


Go here www.Rebol.org, then go here: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/, 
then here: http://java.sun.com/, hell even go here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/, 
now go back to www.Rebol.com


Even if you don't know what the language is or does, do you want 
to go to Rebol.org?  The main page looks like the last page in the 
basement of a website.  Almost like an "error page"

O There is no single location for all Rebol information.

O Rebol.net, Rebol.com, and Rebol.org are spread out and run by RT. 
O There is no pizzas!
O I don't "feel" community when I visit these sites.


I know I'm not talking to my audience when I say; "think of this 
like a night club" but this is what this is all about.  People want 
to "be where the fun is happening."  Even programmers.

My Suggestion:

O We need a site controlled by the developers.

O We need a forum where people can bitch and meet each other, and 
feel welcome.

O The site needs to have a consistent dynamic attractive template.

O The site needs to be a clearing house for all other sites.  Teach 
and directing people to all the resources.

O The site needs to paint a picture as opposed to describe everything 
with a thousand words.

What is entailed:


O Start a new site, I would propose "RebolCentral.com"  I'm willing 
to pay for it, but I don't want to be in charge of it, I suggest 
we make it a committee.


O The main page should cover every topic and reason anyone would 
come to the site.  This means we support every country and other 
site.  The idea here is a clearing house of centralized information. 


O News: The site needs to gather news worthy information and post 
that at the top.  The site is not alive unless people have a way 
to post their information.  This means that there needs to be at 
least one editor, if not several that share the task.  Every time 
a product is updated, the new features are mentioned.  When Carl 
updates his blog, it gets a single sentence directing people there, 
unless it is news of a release of something.  Etc.


O Product Reviews:   This is key.  Products need to be rated, reviewed, 
categorized, voted on.

O Video Archive: All the videos of all the talks ever given   


O Tutorials:  there are a lot of tutorials out there, but which are 
best?  We need to review the tutorials, rate them by Beginner, Intermediate, 
Advanced.  


O Forum: Start with major topics, and then break it down.  The forum 
needs to direct people to other countries, or support the other countries 
right in the forum.  Great simple forum: http://discussion.treocentral.com/index.php?styleid=1


O Respect the real estate.  The #1 mistake people make is treating 
their websites like just pages.  This is just like real estate, location 
location location.  We need to place the content based on where people 
are going.  So you build the basic site, watch it for a couple of 
weeks, then shift things around based on where people are actually 
going. 


O More art, more photos, more community.   It needs to feel inviting: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/

Stone soup:


I will pay for, host, and supply a fast linux system (w/archive). 
 

I will help design the templates, and provide (and buy if needed) 
great art for the site.

I will not run the site, nor control the content, but I expect there 
to be in place all the items outlined above, set up in a manner that 
it a) runs itself, b) puts the power in the hands of the developers.

Graham;  OLPC may, in some small part be a guilt relief mechanism, 
but so?  So is CARE, CCF, and many many other relief organizations. 
 I think these organizations may, in the end, be of less impact than 
OLPC.  I don't think the XO's are meant to be fish, they are meant 
to teach fishing ... not even necessarily the ABCs.   Even if the 
impact is sub-optimal, people should still try.  The world's wealth 
and opportunities may be spread out unfairly, but I'm pretty sure 
IQ is spread out evenly.  Let's give it a chance.  Who knows, the 
feedback loop may eventually even seep back to British Columbia and 
we Canadians may start to rethink clear-cut logging.  The whole butterfly 
fart aspect of Chaos Theory thing.

SVG has been around for a long time, but is very wide spread in the 
open source community now.

I have never seen ice under sand before.  You would think it was 
ice that close to the surface that it couldn't just easily spread 
the soil as if it was baby powder.  You would think it would at least 
have some viscosity.

having more that one channel is ok, nothing wrong with rebol being 
more spread out.

I was holding back for quite some time now. It was not the right 
approach, taking into account all the evidence available, so, here 
goes:

To whom it may concern.


Knowing, that Shadwolf does not consider himself a member of this 
community according to his own messages:

* "I'm retired from rebol community"
* "I'm announcing my retirement of this community."
* "My hate toward rebol community has been growing up alot"

* "I don't want to contribute to anything  handled the rebol community 
way"


, and knowing that he at least tried to insult all the members of 
this community, I have to ask:


* What exactly it is we are waiting for to stop him spread his hatred 
to this community?
* Why do we want to make his hatred to the community web-public?

* Why do we want him to misuse the community communication channels 
to spread his hatred?

One of the networks is spread over 50 km radius connecting the stores 
of a retail chain in the city of bogota. This is going to be the 
next case study.

If that will not be corrected it is "a bit" weird to spread announcement 
around ...

I mean - to spread a word ...

Reichart, if someone puts REBOL and Central into Google - your blasphemous 
site  comes up second in the  list.  Your hurting the spread of REBOL.

How widely spread is it? Compiler for OS X, handhelds, alternative 
OSs? Does it speak with OpenGL and GLUT? What support of sound?

the processing will be spread out on a farm and reintegrated, as 
tiles render-out.

view center-face layout [
	size 600x400
	list-face: face with [
		size: 500x300
		color: 170.165.160
		init: []
		data: ["hello" "there" "Robert"]
		spacing: 1x1
		ioffset: 0x0
		subface: make face [size: 100x24 effect: [merge luma 20]]
		pane: func [face id /local index][
			if pair? id [

    return 1 + first id - ioffset / any [all [subface subface/size + 
    spacing] 1] ; convert offset to row number
			]
			; id is subface ("row") number (an integer)

   ; update subface to the correct offset, call subfunc for each pane 
   of subface
			if subface [

    subface/offset: subface/old-offset: id - 1 * (subface/size + spacing) 
    * 1x0 + ioffset ; spread horiontally into columns

				if subface/offset/x > size/x [return none]


    if subface/show?: all [data id <= length? data][ ; <- this will need 
    to be improved when scrolling added

					index: 0
					if object? subface [
						subfunc subface id index: index + 1
					]

					subface ; return subface so it is shown by the view engine
				]
			]
		]

  subfunc: func [face [object!] id [integer!] "row" index [integer!] 
  "column" /local val][
			;face/text: ""
			;face/data: none
			if all [
				data 
				val: data/:id ; "row"
			][
				face/text: val ; "column"
			]
		]
	]
	btn "change data" [
		list-face/data: random list-face/data
		show list-face
	]
	btn "change x offsets" [
		list-face/spacing: random 40x0
		show list-face
	]
]

This is not possible in the current version of DRAW. You have to 
'compose' more boxes to create linear gradients with different ratio 
of color spread at the moment.

It's a little difficult, because it's a rather big VID application, 
but it happens very often and always when the window is closed. Unfortunately 
I can't spread this app. I can't reproduce it accurately every time, 
but it seems that a certain amount of keyboard input in that window 
must be involved before it happens.

Anton, I simply click the close button [X] on the window.

next step is implementation of the gross-level polygon proximity 
test (a fast algorythm ignoring polygons which are too far away). 
 


this allows many polygons to live in the same scene without requiring 
collision tests for them.


I'll probably use a double linked-list for X and Y sorting of polygons. 
 this allows us to start at our position directly and spread the 
search on each side of the list (in both directions).

then move the particle to the appropriate position in the face.

as they spread out, they will disapear.

Are a lot of the other guys in the US? It's interesting to see where 
were all spread - hink Ashley is anitpadean Tes?

I'm trying to keep it on one page, though. As soon as you spread 
things over multiple pages, most people simply won't go there

fontconfig is to the best of _my_ knowledge the most wide-spread 
thing you can use

Threads are much lighter, but not as separate. I don't know details 
though. On a dual core with hyper-threading on, spawning multiple 
processes, I can see the load is spread.

for example, if you want to slide a picture of a stars, you must 
first boost the gamma of the picture by 2, do the move and then apply 
a .5 gamma.  then, the AA will have spread out according to energy 
rather than color.  which means that the 2 side-by-side pixels will 
be at much more than 0.5 of the original 1.0 single pixel brightness.

The Gripe:


Go here www.Rebol.org, then go here: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/, 
then here: http://java.sun.com/, hell even go here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/, 
now go back to www.Rebol.com


Even if you don't know what the language is or does, do you want 
to go to Rebol.org?  The main page looks like the last page in the 
basement of a website.  Almost like an "error page"

O There is no single location for all Rebol information.

O Rebol.net, Rebol.com, and Rebol.org are spread out and run by RT. 
O There is no pizzas!
O I don't "feel" community when I visit these sites.


I know I'm not talking to my audience when I say; "think of this 
like a night club" but this is what this is all about.  People want 
to "be where the fun is happening."  Even programmers.

My Suggestion:

O We need a site controlled by the developers.

O We need a forum where people can bitch and meet each other, and 
feel welcome.

O The site needs to have a consistent dynamic attractive template.

O The site needs to be a clearing house for all other sites.  Teach 
and directing people to all the resources.

O The site needs to paint a picture as opposed to describe everything 
with a thousand words.

What is entailed:


O Start a new site, I would propose "RebolCentral.com"  I'm willing 
to pay for it, but I don't want to be in charge of it, I suggest 
we make it a committee.


O The main page should cover every topic and reason anyone would 
come to the site.  This means we support every country and other 
site.  The idea here is a clearing house of centralized information. 


O News: The site needs to gather news worthy information and post 
that at the top.  The site is not alive unless people have a way 
to post their information.  This means that there needs to be at 
least one editor, if not several that share the task.  Every time 
a product is updated, the new features are mentioned.  When Carl 
updates his blog, it gets a single sentence directing people there, 
unless it is news of a release of something.  Etc.


O Product Reviews:   This is key.  Products need to be rated, reviewed, 
categorized, voted on.

O Video Archive: All the videos of all the talks ever given   


O Tutorials:  there are a lot of tutorials out there, but which are 
best?  We need to review the tutorials, rate them by Beginner, Intermediate, 
Advanced.  


O Forum: Start with major topics, and then break it down.  The forum 
needs to direct people to other countries, or support the other countries 
right in the forum.  Great simple forum: http://discussion.treocentral.com/index.php?styleid=1


O Respect the real estate.  The #1 mistake people make is treating 
their websites like just pages.  This is just like real estate, location 
location location.  We need to place the content based on where people 
are going.  So you build the basic site, watch it for a couple of 
weeks, then shift things around based on where people are actually 
going. 


O More art, more photos, more community.   It needs to feel inviting: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/

Stone soup:


I will pay for, host, and supply a fast linux system (w/archive). 
 

I will help design the templates, and provide (and buy if needed) 
great art for the site.

I will not run the site, nor control the content, but I expect there 
to be in place all the items outlined above, set up in a manner that 
it a) runs itself, b) puts the power in the hands of the developers.

Going to give a speech about Rebol in May/June at a university in 
Germany. Hopefully showing the potential to a lot of professors and 
students. Spread the word!

I'll leave it to the community to spread the word further - and to 
develop a robot teacher :-)

I have a application that is spread over around 15 files.. I use 
>>do %file<< to "include" them now. Now I am making a encapped version 
of app. do still tries to do the .r files but they don't exist when 
single exe is created so I get errors. I tried naming all files when 
doing encap but it behved the same. I read about prebol and understand 
that I have to  #include the files but I suppose that won't work

when developing and executing from it directly with >>rebol mainfile.r<< 
because it will need to be prereboled each time? 


Is there a way to make a script that I can encap and run directly 
via .r files? If there is no other way I was thinking about making 
>>either encap [ #include %file.r ] [ do %file.r ]<< but it's not 
the most elegant solution .. Is there any better?

could be great to have a spread sheet on every missing widget and 
what Ashley want to see in them this could leads our devs

for lineargradient SVG gives us a transform information (can be matrix, 
rotation,scale , skew, etc...) then we have an offset  x1 X2 y1 y2 
then we have  color informations spread method

'join is really badly missing with rebdb and I am thinking switching 
to sqlite only because of that one feature. Once you have your data 
spread across many tables, it is difficult to work without it. Or 
how you do it?

it also allows us to spread connections over many machines/threads 
virtualise the port and all that nice stuff without actually having 
to code it.

saved out a 15 cell spread sheet in microsoft xml yesterday...  58kb 
of data HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

I just fear one thing - we heard lot's of nice announcements last 
year - Rebservices, BCD, rebin, RIF, language plug-ins, etc etc. 
None of them actually happened (public release). So now I wonder, 
if there is actually anything concrete in the pipeline this time. 
You know - it is nice to say, that next year we will see Rebol to 
spread x-fold, but such claim has to be supported by some conrete 
plan ...

yes that would be better, but that idea is just because it would 
be easier to have it installed on millions computers.. having people 
install rebol web plugin will take time to spread

Flash to jump beyond the browser arctile - simply put, they used 
browser to spread, now they can dominate the market, so they move 
away from the browser with Apollo - http://news.com.com/Flash+to+jump+beyond+the+browser/2100-1007_3-6071005.html?tag=nefd.lede

Jaime; Did you ever try Icon?  http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/

Very high level.  It has that "get 'er done quick", to "holy crap, 
what the....".  Many

angles of Computer Science are covered, and well IMHO.  If you do 
check, make

sure to read The Icon Analyst.  Last issue was June 2001.  Every 
issue has the
holy crap, what the...
, but are very good reads.  The Icon books are all online.

I have a lot of respect for the late Dr. Ralph Griswold.  Unfortunately, 
Icon is far

too brainy for wide spread adoption, but your last thread leads me 
to believe you
may relish it.  (As would most rebols IMHO).

For those that collect programming languages;  HoltSoft the developers 
of Turing have gone out of business.  Dr Holt has moved on.  Turing 
is in wide spread use amongst Ontario High Schools.  (Sad, my home 
province pumped out an entire generation of programmers of a dead 
training language)  Anyway, they had posted it free for non-commercial 
use  on their website, which is now shutdown.   The admin of compsci.ca 
has posted it to their forum board.  This could well be a time limited 
offer.   I don't know all the details of Turing, but this version 
was commercial and proprietary before the shutdown announcement and 
posting of the free copies.   http://compsci.ca/holtsoft/

Henrik - they use even better strategy. They don't try to introduce 
new mythical-save-the-world browser - they use existing ones to spread 
their platform. That is why, for me, REBOL browser plug-in is still 
very important product.

Interesting looking, but their FAQ is a bit off in at least one place: 
 20 KPH (about 12 MPH) might be slow, but it is fast enough for wind 
resistance to become an issue because your entire torso is spread 
sitting up, making it catch much more air.  Also, since sitting up 
gives you a higher center of gravity than leaning forward as on a 
normal bike, it seems less stable to me...


Then again, I rollerblade rather than bike, so I don't know much 
about the Center of Gravity on bikes, but my wind resistance comment 
comes from leaning forward at around 15 MPH and still having issues 
with the wind throwing my balance.

Geomol - sometimes I wonder about your ignorance(?), sorry. You are 
very clever guy, so I really wonder, what is the reason to hear argument 
like in point 2) Henrik is right - who is more informed than the 
community members? I remember the time when Carl invited me to R3 
GUI world. You all gurus were there, yet he had to invite person 
like me (causing a noise many times), because of lack of input. So 
what are we complaining to? Replies to blogs are similar matter. 
Just don't tell me, you are not informed.


Te link to beta project plan - http://rebol.com/r3/docs/project.html
was posted here, was posted in November status update IIRC. Twitter 
message says, Carl is working on Host code NOW. Yesterday we posted, 
that Carl reported on R3 chat succesfull separation of Host vs kernel 
and that he is working on MinGw support. The host code is being worked 
on NOW.


So how can you post argument like you posted in point 2)? Isn't it 
a bit ignorant and disrespectfull to those who care to work on R3? 
How much support do you expect? I do care to remind Carl to update 
blogs, we do care to spread info even here, yet you claim "do you 
expect ppl to wait forever?". 


And even more so - do YOU expect anyone to wait for mysterious ORCA 
like project to be closer than R3 is? ORCA actually IS open sourced, 
for many years. How is that it did not bring competing environment 
to R2 at least to date? (not to mention its architecture is arcane 
compared to what R3 provides us?)


We are really small community. Everyone of us, can weight his own 
free time. So now decide for yourself, where do you put your free 
time REBOL wise. Boron, or R3? As for me, the answer is clear - my 
energy goes to project, which currently has chance to be completed 
in close future. Splitting our efforts at this stage can't bring 
anything usefull imo ...

Yes, and this tendency seem to spread to all electronic equipment.

If just we had resource economy ... ;)

if we stick to specs, they are still quite a bit smaller than the 
OLPC XO-3, and is still not designed for educational use, other than 
being cheap. For children in India, price may be a valid point to 
simply allow it to spread, but the OLPC is designed in and out for 
educational use.

If you want to spread this link, on the REBOL mailing list for example, 
please do

<Pekr>
Ashley, just wanted to ask and can't find rebdb group here ...


Isn't it possible to implement 'join? You once said that you will 
wait once RT adds RIF, but that will probably come who knows when 
- it is year and half late already. Do you think it would not be 
possible to proceed without RIF and switching to on-disk storage?


'join is really badly missing with rebdb and I am thinking switching 
to sqlite only because of that one feature. Once you have your data 
spread across many tables, it is difficult to work without it. Or 
how you do it?
</Pekr>

As I mentioned near the beginning of this thread, SQLite supports 
multiple database files each containing one or more tables - in fact 
they go so far as recommending that you separate multiple high-access 
tables out into different databases for concurrency reasons. In this 
sense, SQLite "databases" act more like traditional "tablespaces". 
So, if we wanted we could write our REBOL front-end so that it created/accessed 
each table in a database of the same name thus ensuring a one-to-one 
mapping between table names and database names. The advantages of 
this approach are:

	backups (only those tables that change need be backed up)

 external table administration (you can drop a table by deleting its 
 database file)

 concurrency (you spread your file locking across a greater number 
 of physical files)

Disadvantages:


 Administering your database is more cumbersome (you can't use the 
 sqlite3 admin tool to administer all tables in one session)

 Value of sqlite_master is diminished (you can't "select * from sqlite_master" 
 to report on all your tables in one query)

 Query references need to add a database prefix when referring to 
 a table not in their own database

 Name conflicts (all tables in one file means multiple databases can 
 use the same table names - the solution with multiple files would 
 be to segregate at the directory level)

 Multiple database files means you need to zip them prior to some 
 operations such as email attachment, etc


On balance, I actually prefer the one file / one database approach.


Pekr's other comments in relation to schema implementation also have 
merit (I've agreed with Pekr twice today - a new record!); I see 
the value of an ftp schema, an http schema, etc; but what value in 
a sqlite schema? Given that the entire schema can be written in a 
much more concise fashion as an anonymous context that exports a 
couple of key access functions to the global context; I can't see 
what the functional differences between the two implementations would 
be?


So, bar any good reasons to the contrary, these are the features 
of the implementation I am currently working on (a rough design spec 
if you like):

	Implemented as an anonymous context

 "Database" is a directory (which is specified when a database is 
 opened with 'open-db)

 Each table resides in a "tablespace" (aka SQLite database file) of 
 the same name
	File is automatically opened on first reference

 The /blocked refinement of 'db-open specifies that rows will be returned 
 in their own block (default is a single block of values)

 Non-numeric values (which SQLite stores natively as INTEGER and REAL) 
 will be subject to 'mold/all on insert and 'load on retrieval

 The /native refinement of 'open-db will turn this behaviour off (see 
 comments below)

 SQLite binding will be supported allowing statements such as ["insert 
 into table values (?,?,?)" 1 [bob-:-mail-:-com] "Some text"] and ["select 
 * from table where email = ?" [bob-:-mail-:-com]]


Whether to store values (including string!) as molded values in SQLite 
is an interesting question; on the one hand it gives you transparent 
storage and access to REBOL values – but at the performance cost 
of having to mold and load every TEXT value returned; and the storage 
cost of the overhead of a molded representation. On the other hand, 
if I only want to store numbers and strings anyway then I don't want 
this overhead. I think the only practical solution is a /native type 
option as detailed above.

First, I think JS is not something we should look at for models. 
It's new enought that it is just going to reinvent what's been done 
before, unless they come up with something truly revolutionary, and 
my gut feeling says that's not going to happen. It also depends on 
what kind of apps you're writing, and what you want the language 
to hide from you.


What's been done before that works, or not?  MVC has seen a resurgence 
with RoR and other frameworks being built on it. 


Now look at a low level approach, where you handle the main event 
loop yourself. Anyone remember writing C programs for Windows early 
on? Maybe some still do. You had a huge switch statement to dispatch. 
On the downside, that was hideous to read and maintain. A benefit, 
though, was that you could hook into it very easily, because it wasn't 
spread throughout the app.

Then there's the whole VB/event-driven model.


R2+VID is wonderful for very simple things, because you don't have 
much to do, actions are right there with their faces, etc. It starts 
getting in the way when you build larger apps that need to track 
relationships between faces and such. And it is not well-suited to 
large apps, just like REBOL itself. It doesn't provide the organization, 
tools, and features needed. Of course, we can build all that ourselves, 
if we have the inclination. RebGUI is the best example of that.

I started a deep deep thinking process wich is a heavy task for an 
idiot biain of mine concerning the futur of viva-rebol and where 
i want to lead it.


If you have a little interest for what i'm doing actually you know 
that i'm actually working  on 2 projects viva-rebol and rekini. I'm 
interrested in transforming viva-rebol into a real time collaborative 
project. manager/editor something like wave but done in rebol to 
create rebol application.


The idea that comes to my brain is to mix IRC and vivarebol. IRC 
would be the supplier for sharing real time documents content information 
and viva-rebol will be at the same time manager and the renderer 
that will catalise the informations collected by irc.


Why irc?  first because they have lot of control feature wich can 
allow anyone to join and see an onShared-creation docuiment  or script 
and only look at it without active participation. That can allow 
a hierachy system with master, co-writer and only viewer. and the 
allow the master to select who participate or not to the création.


We saw with area-tc that rebol and VID and the dialect concept was 
really feat to handle uncomon text handling  at light speed so the 
appears clear for me that this is the next step to go.


Some people will say to me "but it's more important to have an advanced 
rich text editor tool"  which i answer that boring to do and in the 
result the gain in notority for rebol is close to 0. So instead of 
 clonning MS-Word using VID I prefere move to the next step wich 
I hope will lead us to make people see all the potential of rebol.


It took me looooooooooong time (6 years in fact) to see how to merge 
all the interresting part of rebol to make a big project wich we 
could be all be proud of and show all the interesting part of rebol.


Our comminuty is small and working together to make advance the projects 
is obvious if we want our project to be recognised in some way. If 
we all work on our sides on our own project achieving a high quality 
for those projects is hard.  So externally we only show to the world 
project that looks more like teasers than completed project and that 
not a good thing for rebol promotion. We can say all we want about 
the way rebol is done by Carl but us as community which goal is to 
spread rebol world wide we have a part of reponsability in that too.

My problem   token:  join  { ^{ text color = "red", name = "test1" 
}  [ token2 token3 ] ; when first value has many options and is spread 
across multiple lines for readability, the string value requires 
curly braces; token  is ok to be   token3:  { some text  values and 
then clsing escaped curly brace^} }

REBOL being written in capital is another nonsense spread by many 
...

in R3 chat is there a way to read through the new posts sequentially? 
 its very tedious to access new stuff when its all spread around.

you don't understand... I know that.  when the discussions is spread 
between 10 groups. its VERY tedious to read more than very few messages.


jumping around, hoping you don't miss posts, then listing again... 
over and over.   it would be nice if we could simply skim over the 
list of new posts in order of time.


then if we jump to a post we don't get the context, we just list 
that group... its easier this way.  but going to next mesage would 
still bring us to the "newer" message, not the next message in that 
group.


I'm not saying the current method isn't usefull, I'm just saying 
that another method would make it easier not to miss out on new posts, 
especially when there is a sudden flurry of posts all around the 
place.

even if I'm agree that the rebol concept could or should be pushed 
further and that it was spread over too much OSes without taking 
full capabilities of the 3  or 4 main ones  ... that's not a reason 
to say it's  useless ...

AltScript sounds like some yet another scripty thing to me.. nothing 
to remember it by .. They are scared because they don't know it, 
probably never heard of it so it's that what we have to change. I 
think the R3 openeness and new features will make it more approcable 
by the masses so there is a chance to spread. Also rebol community 
is qute self sufficient and closed in it's own world which doesn't 
help at being "everywhere".

heanrik ofcourse the building system is just the concequence not 
the reason. Spread yourself toomuch only tends to make you the worst 
everywhere

pekr, I sort of agree with you, but it's impossible to ignore how 
widespread flash is, not for apps, but for animations, stylish pages 
and now video with youtube and video.google.com. I actually think 
the easiest way to watch video is through flash.


The point is though not really what flash does, it's how it gets 
spread. I think REBOL/Plugin should emulate that behavior as close 
as humanly possible. people who have installed flash, would know 
how to install REBOL/plugin (visit a specific site, wait for download, 
click 1-2 buttons, done). That initial "installation experience" 
is incredibly important for the widespread use of REBOL/plugin. If 
people can't use it within the first 1-2 minutes, they'll forget 
about it and move on.

coming back to your reflexions on a liquid based processing network, 
it recalls me a distributed code programming language : "wave system", 
developed in the 90's, and allowing to spread a code in a large and 
unstructured network for neighbour to neighbour, wher each node executes 
a part of the code, and provides a part of the information requested, 
and transmits. It is unfortunately difficult to find info on this 
system, which was developed by Peter Sapaty. It seems that it was 
recently used in a light version for network problems studies : "wiseman" 
http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~vleung/IWCMC2008Keynote VLeung.pdf , 
and http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~sergiog/wiseman/WisemanManual.pdf

Pekr, the new PHP interface can now work with relative paths, so 
you can now put Cheyenne and PHP in your USB stick and spread it 
everywhere ;-). Did you solve your issue regarding php process not 
responding on Vista ?

That just means that, in that case, when I have multiple forms spread 
out in several tabs, I use a unique <FORM> tag to be able to send 
all data together when I need to save all the forms.

Btw, I always found very user-unfriendly  the Unix approach of dispatching 
application related files through the whole filesystem...Pity that 
the GoboLinux philosophy didn't spread over all the others distros.

this would simplify my life a lot.  I will have 4 servers to keep 
in sync and their setup will be mostly the same but their environments 
will be different.


A lot of the information is spread out in differrent tools and things... 
it would be nice if they could all share (loading) a single file 
when they start and I know I have just one "site" administration 
file to edit to contextualize all the configs of all my rebol-based 
tools.

For Cheyenne fans, finally some logos to spread everywhere. ;-) 
http://cheyenne-server.org/blog.rsp?view=22

Btw, worker processes are not equal wrt the load. The first in the 
list gets the more jobs to do, especially if requests can be processed 
fast (which should be the case in most of well-coded scripts). So, 
you get a natural "affinity" to the first worker (having the most 
code and data cached there) for all new incoming requests. 

So, in the long run, you can look at workers memory usage to see 
how the workload is spread, the first one having the biggest memory 
usage, the last one having the lowest. Looking at the last one is 
a good indicator if the number of workers needs to be raised or not, 
if his memory footprint hasn't changed since the last restart, your 
server is doing fine with the load. I should expose some workers 
and job queue usage stats to help fine tune workers numbers.

As I understand it, this looks like Cheyenne will need a per-UNIX 
system install script? Or will we let users spread the files acrosse 
the filesystem as they want and use options to redirect properly 
each file classes to the right folders?

Content of Carl's presentation was updated:

Introducing REBOL 3.0
 by Carl Sassenrath

(The content will be spread in probably more than one session)

Opening and a historical note.


What makes a system popular? Is it the language, the platform, or 
the applications? The bigger picture: the virtual OS. Moving beyond 
conventional OS models. Being a latform. The core of modern applications 
- it's not what you think.


The motivation for R3. The guiding theme. Portablity and extensibility 
- the R3 open foundation. Overview of R3 features.


Environments - embedding REBOL. Building your own version of REBOL 
- within a standard. Plugins - extending REBOL. The IO device model 
- how to create a device.


New datatypes. The Module architecture. Tasks, threads, and more. 
The new graphics system. All new port design. New debugging methods. 
New object tricks. DB access nd indexed files. IPv6 discussion. Compatibility 
- taming the lion. What's next? When and where can you get a copy? 
The goal of DevBase and DocBase.

but when I say forced, I don't mean spread up all around the disk 
and forgotten on uninstalled, untraceable deep paths, masked by the 
explorer, and even translated on top of it.

cyphre... use this as a basis:


view layout [box 200x200 effect [
    draw [
        push [
            translate 119x119 
            pen none 
            fill-pen black 
            box -50x-30 50x50 
            fill-pen blue 
            pen red 
            line-width 3 
            circle 50x50 25 
            fill-pen red 
            pen blue 
            circle -50x50 25 
            fill-pen blue 
            pen red 
            circle -50x-30 25 
            fill-pen red 
            pen blue 
            circle 50x-30 25
        ]
    ]
]]


adding new black, red, blue, black, circles in betwen colors may 
give very poor results.  sometimes 1 pixel width lines practically 
disapear horizontally!


playing around with the line width will also have a different visual 
impact, since the aliasing will spread the error more or less.


as I said, i know part of the issue is related to the screen's rgb 
sub-pixel channel components but I remember trying some of this in 
other softwares and the effects weren't as image degrading.


to me the main defect is that you will notice a WHITE ringing effect 
between the red and blue on one side and a black ring on the other.


I can understand the black ring, but can't explain the white one, 
which is why I think it coule be related to gamma issues.


also, the black ring seems to be wider than it should &  the effect 
seems the most apparent at ODD line widths, which is a bit strange 
too...


I'm wondering if AGG has an algorithm which is trying to compensate 
for pixel to pixel color defects and gets it wrong.  


maybe it could be enhanced to support subpixel aliasing (or gets 
it wrong if it already does so).

With this issue now complete, as per the opening the of the meeting 
I move to adjourn.

To Recap;

user.r has won a quorum majority and will be the Official name of 
the association

A home site is being prepared on Qtask.com, under a project name 
of  user.r

The IRUA and IRUA chat forums will remain for 72 hours, after which 
they will be renamed.


The first meeting of user.r is scheduled to begin Saturday August 
11th 2007 at 6pm GMT.  This meeting will be held in Qtask, under 
the user.r project.  Anyone wishing to attend, please accept the 
invitations and please request an invitation by dropping an Altme 
note to btiffin.


Word of this new association will be spread across other online systems 
as well.

The chair would like to thank all participants.

Gregg windows is supported by Spread by default (more exactly Win32)

BTW, I'm not opposed to using something like Spread... does anyone 
know its general size (e.g. complexity level?)


Also, if we went that direction, wouldn't we also want to look at 
MQ in general?

License note:


This software is licensed under the Spread Open Source License. This 
license is SIMILAR BUT NOT IDENTICAL to the BSD license. Specifically, 
the license includes the requirement that all advertising materials 
(including web pages) mentioning software that uses Spread display 
a specific acknowledgement.

Remember that advertising clauses are transitive, so all of our apps 
that we build with R3 would need to advertise Spread too. Even apps 
that we build for third-parties.

Gregg - to be honest - 200KB? Total bloat. I work in enterprise sphere 
for 15 years, and never heard of something like "spread". In fact 
- noone in enterprise sphere cares. Guys, really - let's have clean 
 and mean REBOL solution, the REBOL way. Then we can interop with 
other systems, as the need arises. Let's not adhere to pseudo standards, 
because they have some juicy website ...

Re: Spread, it doesn't specifically say how you have to advertise, 
so one small clause on one page somewhere on the website would suffice

I wonder if including this "This product uses software developed 
by Spread Concepts LLC for use in the Spread toolkit. For more information 
about Spread see http://www.spread.org"as a text string in the source 
counts?

Interestingly the first site I went to using this software does not 
display this text!  http://code.google.com/p/spread-excel/

Brian, I do commercial app development in REBOL as well as in-house.


Petr, I'm not here to defend Spread. I mentioned it because when 
I looked at it before, it was something I marked to remember because 
it wasn't too large or complex and didn't try to do too much (compared 
to, say, AMQP). 

I only played with it breifly, I didn't put it into production. 

I want a REBOL solution too. :-)

Whether Spread would be right for REBOL is another matter though 
it would offer a limited  alternative for secure inter-process communications 
with non-REBOL processes without having to resort to either cgi or 
"roll-your-own".

PeterWoo - you talk nonsense, which belongs in advocacy group :-) 
If you work for 35 years in enterprise, then tell me, if you met 
spread there. The messaging is done by so called middlewares. IBM 
has MQ series, SAP has XI. Those engines use the so called connectors. 
Everybody went the web-services route, hence having ability to talk 
SOAP might be more important for REBOL. I never argued against having 
as much libraries as possible wrapped to REBOL, the only thing I 
argued against is eventual 200KB library inclusion in REBOL, just 
to do IPC between REBOL tasks ...

Spread requires a daemon to be running ... so this doesn't fit

Graham IMO almost every IPC need somewhat daemon runing. The library 
"could" be linked in extension and try to open communication with 
daemon, when it doesnt find the daemon let start its own (first process 
trying to comunicate), what is nice in Spread it combines P2P and 
multicast and members/group policy, and of course single/multi machines.

Most multi-tab apps I see spread across 3 or more rows

Here I come with a nuclear bomb Ask .... This document requieres 
Viewer Advise if upon reading those line your retina blow up I could 
not held responsible for that.


I was htinking of the possible logical reasons why rebol is  not 
used  widly in today's computing area.


First i can say  compared to other scripting language it's source 
code is not freely accessible.

Second I can say most of the script laguages use now in days is in 
a role where the script source code isn't available to read to the 
client.

And so most of those script use are around Webserver, server side 
so the scripts are hiden to the view of the consumer (the cleint).

And most of  the time when a company needs to broadcast a software 
to their customer (a game, a client software, etc...) then they 

need to hide their source code. So most of the time they use compiled 
or speudo compiled programing language.


On an ideologic side what rebol offers is  "take my blackbox but 
you have to broacast your software source code viewable for all" 

Personnally i like that part .... that's what allowed me to build 
most of my softwares and contribute to most of some of other ones
project.


But I perfectly understand that for the industry they need to hide 
their "know how". So they use java so they use what ever compiled 
language to hide their "know how" 

Next is the fact that most of the time companies choose a langage 
more for the extension related to their project than for any other 
consideration.

Compiled language are faster the script languages most of the time.
So my ask is could rebol be like java compiled like language? 


I'm not talking about rebol/SDK  to me fusing the VM binary with 
 the script and somehow hiding the script is not the right solution 
that's just a cheap way to 
achieve that goal and rebol deserves better than cheap ways.


My point is to have like java does the need to go to the rebol.com 
and install the REBOL runtime environement  -> That strategy 1 rule 
1 modo 1 in spreading your technology 
Why sun Java and  Microsoft .NET  does it and rebol not ? 

And there we fall to what Carl noticed and shared with us some years 
ago while initiating the R3 projet  wich was  "Administrators on 
IT companies doesn"t knows about REBOL so when they see it they kill 
it from running tasks" 

Maybe the whole R.E (runtime Environement) thing was made to make 
most of the people look at the juava or .net dedicated websites and 
so be informed of what is jvm or what is netvm. At taht time when 
CArl tried to talk about us with that the solution Carl proposed 
was -> "Lets change rebol names" and  my reply was cold "If people 
after 6 years don't know rebol they won't know better anyother name 
the problem so i not the name is the way we spread the information". 
So in a way a runtime environement is the best way to populate your 
idea without investing to much.


Next thinking is about the compiled / speudo compiled is faster than 
any possible scripting language.
FASTER ????  IN WHAT ?  those are the questions ...

Most of people whould reply faster in execution ... Ok bu if i remamber 
well what i learn at school (yes i went to school stop laughing ...) 
before running a binary program you need to build the script ...

and that's where most of the work time is bruned up and where the 
need of a IDE (intergrated Developement Environement) is needed and 
most of the time those IDE ends up in being a Click and feel the 
form ... wich is adding a complexity layer instead of simplifying 
the scriptiing. Intents like small talk for example that push this 
aspect to it's core limits were hum not widely accepted as a suitable 
way to build software. Mainly because they make nearly impossible 
to extend easyly their selfves in comparasion of  other compiled 
languages.


So we are then saying rebol is the fastest way to build applications 
in the world. It's a ight weight very well though scripting langages 
with alot of possibilities.

Most of the time in one line of rebol you do as much as  tens of 
lines in any other languga (or even more) and that's because in my 
opinion rebol doesn't need a heavy script 

grammar to exist.   But you can stil make an IDE to help organise 
your work and speed it up and make it easyly more cooperative. But 
this is not the part we are discussing.


So in fact what really  matters in comuting area is less the time 
you spend building you application than the need to hide your 'how 
I did it'  and to then have the closest possible level to your hardware 
for your software. 


And for that my friends rebol need to be speudo compiled able. And 
maybe the step further java in our industry is to have a keep it 
simple language hiding your industrial secrets but allowing you if 
you want to share your work in full view full access like it's actually 
the case. Some will say to me  yes but  with R3 we have new extendsions 
so the industrial secret can be hidden in that layer. that's right 
but then you don't do rebol anymore you do C and what id the purpose 
of embeding rebol into a complexifed C layer ... C layer is to extend 
our language capabilities the fastest way but not to make the need 
of our language to desapear ... Because in the end what we want to 
promote is REBOL  not C language....


It's a long post I'm sorry for that  but I'm thinking about it since 
a long long time and tonight i feeled like sharing those thoughts

can we keep rebol in the shadows doesn't it impact it's spread to 
keep it in the actual model ...

well, given that REBOL isn't the fastest at processor intensive work, 
anything that could help spread things out over multiple cores would 
be welcome

Because you can have a worm spread using a combination of REBOL and 
code that is not written in REBOL but writes %user.r to do its propagation.

you can have a worm spread using a combination of REBOL and code 
that is not written in REBOL but writes %user.r to do its propagation

- yes, you can, but when you run a worm like that, then you are insecure 
anyway, since the worm could overwrite even your rebol.exe file.

Sure, and such a worm could spread much more easily by writing my 
.bashrc to do the propagation.

I probably shouldn't spread that speculation further :)

And as for me - I don't really care. All I care about is when ppl 
meet. That helps a lot to be more tolerant, spread a good atmosphere, 
and make friends.

Hey guys ! AltME is cool, but what about using Red lang Google Groups 
to spread the world all reflexion (?) ?

And maybe having new blood, new way of thinking, new point of view 
?
What do you think ?

I think that the language name alone is not the typical query that 
someone would do. Here's two examples:


- Tiobe index relies on "<language> programming" as its search query 
to mesure the popularity of a programming language (see http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/tpci_definition.htm)


- For Cheyenne web server (not a language, but uses a common name), 
people coming to the web site with only "cheyenne" as a search keyword 
are very few. A vast majority use "cheyenne server" or "cheyenne 
web" or "cheyenne rebol". Anyway, after been online for a few months/years, 
Cheyenne's web site appeared on first page if you search for that 
word only (while there's really a *lot* of others resources not related 
to this web server).


There's also another point to consider. If the target name is not 
strongly associated with an existing brand or a popular product, 
you'll see a lot of unrelated results on first page (that's the case 
for "Red"). So, AFAIU page ranking algorithm, once Red language will 
spread larger, I'm ready to bet that the cross-reference links of 
Red-related site (and back-references to Red's home site) will push 
it rapidly on the first page, or even in the top 3 list.

Ch'an Buddhism spread to Japan where it became known as Zen

plus ISC opensuze distro was custom distro of the year which spread 
even more the word

About instructions being 256 bit, half can be used to hold constants 
of the types:

- complex! : 2 double
- range! : 2 64-bit int (also pair! in the future)
- tuple! : 14 bytes + length (could be 15 bytes)
- date! : 128-bit in all


The rest is used for opcode, type of constant and a register offset. 
I put a 32-bit filler in, when going from 32- to 64-bit to reach 
a 64-bit boundary. So it should be possible to go down to 192-bit 
instructions without loosing functionality. To reach 128-bit instructions, 
the above constants needs to be spread over two instructions, which 
will hit performance. But it's important to notice, there is room 
for improvements here.


It hasn't been important for me to uptimize in this area yet, so 
that's why it is like this for now, but that time will come.

There is a lot of interest from people from France in REBOL-like 
languages, it seems. The month stats for world-lang.org shows most 
visitor from France, closely followed by Denmark and United States. 
Then Germany, Switzerland, UK, Czech Rep., Japan, Canada and Malaysia.


I should say, that I informed my SAS friend from France about this, 
so he could have spread the word too.