AltME groups: search

Public group request (probably not web-public yet): WebOS
Description: Development for WebOS with REBOL

Reposting Robert's request: How about creating an RMA group?

@  Reichart : We were discussing in the OPEN GL group about the default 
way AltMe permits to enter text - and we were 3 that think the default 
way to enter text would be the EDIT mode (the one that accepts Line 
feeds without submitting the post automatically. 


Would you be considering this option in a future release - even if 
I now realize that this is a global switch since when I submits new 
posts this mode is kept alive.


I didn't ask for others to vote for this change but you can do it 
if you want - I find it  really annopying - more than the obligation 
to commit messages by having to use the mouse each time. I know it's 
a productivity consideration but as I can't reedit my sent posts, 
sometimes they didn't look good - until I asked someone how to enter 
LFs.

Thanks a lot for considering this request. 
Regards, Gerard

this is not a young topic I think like 6 years ago I made that request 
too ... cause yet it's a pain for me to read this ...

Request permission to board board Captain.

I've added the Hello World request/reply examples to the 0MQ bindings 
site:

Fourth Open Motion
Nominations for President;  None
Nominations for Vice-President; Maxim

Nominations for Secretary; btiffin, still requires a Second before 
vote.  An official

request for Second was placed in IRUA Chat.  This will stand unless 
there is an
objection from the floor.

Point of information;  Sorry the chair mistakenly referenced the 
first list as raw data.  Raw data will be available upon request 
to the Secretary  user btiffin's email can be found through normal 
Altme means.  The first list is the sorted data by postive result.

With this issue now complete, as per the opening the of the meeting 
I move to adjourn.

To Recap;

user.r has won a quorum majority and will be the Official name of 
the association

A home site is being prepared on Qtask.com, under a project name 
of  user.r

The IRUA and IRUA chat forums will remain for 72 hours, after which 
they will be renamed.


The first meeting of user.r is scheduled to begin Saturday August 
11th 2007 at 6pm GMT.  This meeting will be held in Qtask, under 
the user.r project.  Anyone wishing to attend, please accept the 
invitations and please request an invitation by dropping an Altme 
note to btiffin.


Word of this new association will be spread across other online systems 
as well.

The chair would like to thank all participants.

If you wish to join the meeting please post a request here.

Guys, thanks for your input. I did log off, thinking that perhaps 
not doing so might be causing the issue. This morning, the same "page 
unavailable" occured. I checked the log and there is an RSP script 
 error in the head.rsp file:

 ** Script Error : say expected data argument of type: string none 
	** Where: rsp-script 
	** Near:  [projects/2: say projects/2 

Then a separate entry 

Request = make object! [ ...
 referring to the index.rsp file.


I can in fact run my test page which has a mysql test  that reads 
the curecode tables within it without any issues.


I have that work-around of restarting the service so I'm cool. I 
was just wondering if anyone else had that same behavior.

I'm also going to test it from another machine today.


Interesting. Reaching the server from another machine worked. Then 
when I went back to the server machine and tried curecode, it also 
worked.  

I'll do some more tests and let you know. Thanks.

Brian: your request has been implemented in the upcoming 0.9.11 version. 
I should put it online by tomorrow.

One enhancement request - a check box, which would allow me to receive 
comments to particular bugs, or even state-changes, so that I am 
informed, that some bug got fixed. Would anyone else find it usefull?

BrianH: I'll see if your feature request can be easily added.

trying 0.9.12 and getting this crash:


        URL  = /bugs/
        File = /home/henrikmk/serve/www/bugs/head.rsp

        ** Script Error : Invalid path value: locals 
        ** Where: repend 
        ** Near:  [request/config/locals/instance 
%title.inc

Another crash in index.rsp:

sess: session/content

	if all [
		not sess/login?
		none? validate/full [action word! *]
		'identify = request/content/action
	][

SESS appears to be NONE.

Redirection trapped

 is a debug feature, not an error. If debug mode is activated, it 
 produces a intermediary page for HTTP redirection, you have a chance 
 to examine request and session before the redirection is done.

IIRC Flash was facing similar situation - first Flash 10 used HW 
acceleartion, then they shut it down due to incompatiblities, then 
they started to put it back upon user's request. Dunno if I am correct 
here, but I remember something like that ...

The question should be raised on R3 Chat, in order for Carl to see 
we request that ....

can I give a guess that the series building part of the request will 
be about 100 times faster now?

continuing Request for object lookup within host/extensions here....



Here is a proposal (using example C code) for OBJECT access within 
extensions  this uses the EXACT same API as commands, and with just 
a little bit of work on the extensions API by Carl and a single hook 
within the r3core, we could allow callbacks within objects.


the advantage is that we re-use the same safe sand box as commands, 
and don't require to do much coding to enable it, AFAICT.


since object lookup is performed on demand, we can very rapidly supply 
an object to the command, and it doesn't cause any heavy-handed conversion 
at each command call if the object isn't needed.  more fine-grained 
control could be added so we don't need to frame the whole object, 
but it would be usefull as-is already.

RXIEXT int RX_Call(int cmd, RXIFRM *frm) {
	i64 i;
	
	// objects are frames, exactly like command arguments.
	RXIFRM *obj;
	

 // return values are also frames (with one argument), for type-checking 
 purposes.
	RXIFRM *rval;
	
	if (cmd == 1) {
		// ask the core for a frame which represents object.
		// attributes are returned in order they appear in object
		//

  // the command frame doesn't include the object frame, only a handle 
  to the

  // object which the core can understand. we then ask for the object 
  frame on-demand.
		obj = RXA_OBJ(frm, 1);
		
		switch (RXA_TYPE(obj, 1)) {
			case RXT_INTEGER:
	            i = RXA_INT64(obj, 1);
				break;
			
			// we could build a frame for supplying arguments to the eval
			case RXT_FUNCTION:
				rval = RXA_EVAL(obj, 1);
				if (RXA_TYPE(rval, 1) == RXT_INTEGER){
	            	i = RXA_INT64(rval, 1);
				} else {
					// return error
				}
				break;
			
			// wrong type
			default:
				// return error
				break;
		}
		
		// do something with the value
		my-native-function(i);

	}
}

so what do you guys think?

Yep, I think it is a reasonable request.  The trick would be that 
you'd add any field names to the WORDs block of your ext module.

That's a messaging request.

kind of similar to Graham's request, but for use with WebKit running 
as an extension - it would be nice to be able to send DOM events 
back to REBOL - would this need the same kind of mechanism as with 
QT?

i think that'll be a rather typical skeleton for request/response 
protocols

The ability to get just headers, number of messages, etc. is great. 
Get a little info, show the user, request more data as desired, and 
show progress for lengthy ops.

i intend to iterate POP3 until i consider it to be a good example 
for a basic scheme implementation for an "interactive" (lock-step 
request/response) protocol

Also just looking at your code ..  my understanding is that if you 
request a message, you have to keep reading until you hit a  crlf 
".," crlf  sequence ... but I don't see that anywhere in your code.

Managed my first request to the Amazon SDB using the http scheme 
and SOAP

Say I wanted to create a http header, I would naturally want to use 
Gab's make-http-request function that is not exported

I'm lost in current somewhat fragmented documentation on asynchronous 
networking. Does anyone happen to know of an example somewhere on 
how to do a http request and meanwhile displaying a progress bar 
or just print some progress info to the console? I know I have to 
use a AWAKE handler, but I just don't grasp what to do therein.


Let's say I want to PRIN "." to the console (or draw something to 
the GUI) every 0.25 secs the http request is taking . Are there any 
docs out there on how to accomplish something like that?

request-download shows a progress bar.

>> value? 'request-download
== false

Gabriele, it seems as if that REQUEST-DOWNLOAD has yet to find it's 
way into R3. Though on the other hand, it's seems very likely to 
me that you know about R3 resources I'm not aware of.

Ok, Henrik, are you saying that theoretically it should be possible 
to adapt REQUEST-DOWNLOAD or alike to R3 with current R3/HTTP-scheme? 
If so, I'll have a go and study the source, it's just that I am not 
able to tell wether I just dont get it or if something is missing 
for now. Is it expected to be possible yet?

I want to build a very very very simple web server in R3.

I just want to be able to receive an HTTP request and send the response.
But me and Rebol networking are two differents people !!


To begin, I just want to be able to display the full request in the 
response page.

So far I have wrote this by peeking code in DocBase, but it does 
not work as I want : the browser stay awaiting the answer. Can one 
point me to what's wrong ?

did you get request-file working yet?  :)

Maxim, no problem, I have not much time either now so feel free to 
clarify any time later.

I was just wondering what you are looking for to satisfy your needs.

And of course, you cannot request functionality of big complex 3D 
systems which are usually fat high-level layers over  low level graphics 
libraries.

You should think about the DRAW at the level of graphic library api, 
not application layer.

So I more awaited comparison with OpenGL, DIrectX, Cairo, Qt , Java2d 
 and so on. Anyway, I'm curious about your  examples....

Also I don't understand what is so wrong on using dialect as an interface 
when Rebol should be the case where working with blocks, dialects 
etc. should be a plus.

For example If you prefer interface based on function calls over 
dialect the I'd like to know what benefits you see in that approach 
etc.

AdrianS, I've worked with Swing and know what you are talking about. 
The equivalent to a Java swappable layout model in the R3 GUI (when 
last I worked on it) is a group style. The "group" and "panel" styles 
are two such grouping styles. More group styles and other composite 
styles can be added. What you request is built into the model already.

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/228.png


This odd looking dialog marks a few milestones from two days of work:


- Successfully create and open an email dialog created from a single 
style, which represents the content area.

- Successfully validate the content area from the validation information 
stored in the style.

- Successfully display validation result in the content area (the 
letters to the right of the fields show INVALID)

- Successfully block closing it, when it's not correctly filled, 
when clicking "Send" using a new DISMISS reactor.

- Successfully store the content in a way so that it can be returned 
in an object, when the dialog is finished or store a NONE/FALSE when 
cancelled.


The dialog is called by: REQUEST-EMAIL. It doesn't send any email, 
that comes later. The reason it looks odd is because the new resizing 
scheme requires some changes in how sizes are handled in styles and 
I haven't quite figured out how to change them yet.


We'll probably need some more prototypes, but all in all, this is 
a fairly good method of creating complete-featured dialogs quickly.

Long discussion here ;) Ok, currently we are using origin(0x0) of 
coordinates from top-left corner. If I understand Maxim's request 
he wants to be able to easily change the orgin so it starts from 
bottom-left corner right?

I got the new exe and dll, the re-downlaoded r3-gui.r3, dialog and 
validation too, but get this error when clicking on a button in the 
dialog demo:

** Script error: path win-gob/text is not valid for none! type

** Where: any view either create-dialog request-user do switch applier 
apply if

foreach if do-face if actor all do-style if do-event do-event do-event 
either ap

plier wake-up loop applier wait do-events if view catch either either 
applier do


** Near: any [opts/title win-gob/text "REBOL: untitled"] ds: screen/s...

OK, so there's recently no way of how to programatically cycle via 
available and displayable widgets, and put them on screen. Just remember 
my request for the tagging and obtaining the list of usefull styles/widgets 
:-)

Henrik: "The help system is what will allow us to use layouts and 
gobs as tool-tips for any face ..." - IIRC, Carl wanted to introduce 
kind of layers. I still request this feature, as well as multiple 
draw block styles :-)

Button can be focused. Small enhancement request - can we add enter 
reactor for the button? I would find it usefull being able to run 
the button action hitting enter :-) btw - panels-2 - can't focus 
any button after the script start. Only after I invoke first button 
press ... now R3 crashed big time :-)

I have only a couple of request: please consider now the modification 
to the event system to support multitouch devices and whatever is 
needed for smooth GUI animation. It is important for further porting 
on other platform.


Also, keep in mind that good documentation is essential to let people 
use your work.

ok, then I retract my request.

Or I have something wrong in the demo code, not yet fully adapted:

view-sub-panel: funct [
	index
	main-pan
	desc
][
	set 'current-panel index
	set-face desc form pick test-notes index
	pan: pick test-panels index
	unless pan [

  pan: make-face 'vpanel [columns: 1 content: pick test-blocks index]
;		insert-panel-content pan pick test-blocks index
		poke test-panels index pan
	]

	set-panel-content main-pan pan
;	switch-panel main-pan pan 'fly-right
]

view [
	title "R3 GUI Tests"
	text (reform ["R3 V" system/version "of" system/build])
	bar
	hgroup [

		; List of test sections:
		text-list test-sections do [view-sub-panel value main-pan desc]

		; Panel for showing test results:
		vgroup  [
			desc: text-area "Please read the instructions below."
			options [
				max-size: 2000x40
				text-style: 'bold
			]

			main-pan: vpanel [
				text "test" ;doc instructions
			] options [columns: 1 init-size: 280x380]

			hgroup [
				button "Source" do [
					either current-panel [
						view-code trim/head mold/only pick test-blocks 
current-panel
					][
						request "Note:" "Pick a test first."
					]
				]
				button "Halt" leaf close halt
				button "Quit" maroon quit
				check "Debug"  do [guie/debug: if value [[all]]]
				check "Remind" guie/remind do [guie/remind: value]
			]
		]
	]
;	when [enter] do [
;		if quick-start [
;			if spot: find test-sections quick-start [

;				view-sub-panel index? spot main-pan desc  ; for faster testing
;			]
;		]
;		;[request "Alert" instructions]
;	]
]
;[reactors: [[moved [save %win-xy.r face/gob/offset]]]]

How about the interface allowing the programmer to specifically request 
the update - do you think the /UPDATE [...] looks fine?

if you use a request function to display a message, this is the cause 
of the problem: the request function from RMA is bugged (and also 
the alert). You should either correct in the RMA r3-gui.r3 file, 
or, better, overload it. change the words group  by hgroup , and 
change the line doc (message) by text-area (message)

Pekr, we are by and large at the same point. Your version is compatible 
with the a111 version that I compiled, except for a certain number 
of tests, like mine. Did your version work with the a110 of RMA for 
the drawing test ?
Kaj, I agree, Carl's version was demonstrable.

Some basic functions like request or alert, and styles like doc are 
still bugged in r3-gui.r3

Some basic functions like request or alert

 - because they are an entirely separate scheme that is not yet implemented. 
 Carl's version of these were unorganized and lacking.

That provokes another request from me: please stop presenting "political 
opinions" here. The purpose of this group is to discuss the GUI.

Is the way of how styles are being drawn compatible with Carl's GUI. 
I definitely request scroller being progress + arrow button based, 
as I have goose bumps looking into the recen one, which has to come 
from different planet probably :-)

I definitely request scroller being progress + arrow button based

 - I suppose you mean slider instead of progress? Anyhow, I'm not 
 sure that's likely to happen, as a slider is not the same thing as 
 a scrollbar and there would be too much code needed to write both 
 so they fit together.

I don't necessarily want styles being somehow magically compound, 
if the only thing you need is to use a draw block, and in fact "integrating" 
multiple styles together is even beyond my imagination technically 
wise, but I request identical visual representation ....

the two fixes that I put in my demo file are on the doc style, and 
on the request function

It's time to decide about propagation of events using actors in R3GUI 
so we would like to know your opinion on that.

example:
Let's have face A and face B which is inside face A.

Currently, when you click mouse button on the face B and the face 
B has defined ON-CLICK actor the event is fired to that actor.

If the face B have no ON-CLICK actor the event is not catched anywhere.


We got a request to checnge this so there are few possible options 
we could use:


1. If face B doesn't have ON-CLICK actor defined then propagate the 
event up to its parent face (in our case face A) and up until any 
ON-CLICK is found. (If the face B have ON-CLICK defined then the 
actor is executed and propagation stops here.) In other words the 
event propagation stops in the closest found ON-CLICK actor during 
the 'bubbling' of the event upwards.


2. Propagate the event from face B thru its parent face (in our case 
face A) and up to the topmost(Window) face. The propagation/bubbling 
is done by default and can be stopped in any ON-CLICK actor on the 
way upwards by returning 'stop-event(or any other chosen) keyword. 
(this is simmilar to the model used in HTML)


3. (current behaviour) Don't propagate the event. Just execute the 
ON-CLICK actor in face B in case it is defined. Programmer have to 
manually add event propagation code to the actor if event bubbling 
is required.


4. Don't propagate the event by default. But introduce PROPAGATE/BUBBLE-ACTORS 
(or any other chosen word) option field that can be set for each 
face. The option could hold block of actor names that should propagate/bubble 
the events up.


Please, keep in mind that chosen behaviour affects not only actors 
that handle user input but also actors like ON-INIT, ON-MAKE and 
any other possible actors in general.


Please post either your favorite from the above options or even any 
other possible solution you think is better. Thanks for your help.

I understand that you are focusing resources as much as possible, 
otoh it is a bit dangerous aproach - R3 GUI saw rather intense concept 
changes during last year. Anyone eventually willing to give it a 
try once time permits will think twice, as recent public release 
could be pretty much outdated in few weeks, API wise, etc. There 
should imo be a way, that upon some request or bunch of requests, 
public release is done e.g once in few months?

and: Than you need to take action and change it. It's not a "musical 
request programm" where you want something and it will happen.

But most people would send the request as a dialect and let the other 
side do the query.

Sounds good. Request it in CureCode.

Request for help received via REBOL.org's feedback form. If you can 
help, please post here and I'll forward him the URL of the archive:

===============

Using Rebol 3.0 Alpha, 2.100.97.3.1, how can I save the value removed 
from a series when I use the remove function? See example 1 below; 
I would like to be able to save the value "red" in a variable.  Can 
a "parse" statement be used instead of the remove. How would it be 
coded?

See example 2 below. Should'nt the value be "red"

example 1
text: "redblueyellow"
== "redblueyellow"
remove/part text 3
==text: "blueyellow"

Example 2
saved-text: "redblueyellow"
== "redblueyellow"
difference saved-text text
== "d"

I tried this an hour later and got 
== "rd"
===============

Now for real, it was just a request for something rather not as complex 
as the fear around it.

It looks like untriggered errors are assignable with set-words in 
R3. I wonder if that was an intentional change. It should be reported 
as a bug, with a request for Carl to say whether it was intentional.

There is an ongoing discussion about REBOL3 objects and accessors 
ongoing into the "Other Languages" section. BrianH and Maxim have 
discussed and a proposal has been made at http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Objects_enhancements.

This proposal is only of their side and we request the other GURUs 
to partecipate to build up other POV.
Then the proposals will be submitted to Carl.

Please partecipate ! The object  heart is open right now and in the 
hands of Carl ! :-)

It should be possible to have FOREACH iterate through the pane of 
a gob directly. I'll request it, or see if such a request is there 
already. FORALL wouldn't be possible because a gob pans has no position.

Paul, I don't understand your request. For the code:
      b: a < 10

and the request "where b gets set to the value of a instead of true?", 
there are at least two ways to interpret *why* b would be set to 
the value of a. Either you want the op < to return the value of a 
rather than true (Icon-style comparison behavior, which C# doesn't 
have) or you want the code to be equivalent to (b: a) < 10, different 
precedence levels for op evaluation (which C# does have), or something 
completely different that I don't get. Which interpretation is what 
you meant?

See that is NOT what I requested.  I didn't request to use another 
set.  I requested to use the current ones.

yes I can see that there would require a little change in the op! 
datatype to let do know how to handle values before & after, but 
the dialect itself isn't limited in the sense that it couldn't be 
modified...  just being curious for discussion's sake... not a request

if file: request-file [
	append files file
]

append/found files request-file

In that case, I usually do 
>> append files [request file []]
no temp var

thanks. Then - let's request the change then :-)

one last request i'm almost blind can someone make this font bigger 
 thank you ...

Shadwolf, we got that request. No need to keep elaborating on it. 
What else, specificly?

We have the !REBOL3 GUI and !REBOL3 Extensions groups to handle that 
request. It's a work in process. What else?

I guess I can CureCode the request

yes... most applications now are multi-threaded if only to make them 
smoother...  the GUI in one thread, heavy lifting in another, for 
example.


async, doesn't allow you to scale, only to time slice.   you can 
still only compute on a single request at a time.

if the request needs time to finish (rendering, for example), it 
effectively blocks all async and I/O handling.

Maxim: "shoudn't resolve have a refinement called /bind  making it 
easier to rebind data to target context in a single pass?"

There is a REBIND internal function that hasn't been exported yet. 
Ask Carl or request in CureCode for the function to be exported.

I tried to look into Rebol Tutorial request for the JS 'prototype 
like functionality:


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4272018/does-rebol-really-have-an-equivalent-for-javascript-prototype-property

Any ideas if some enhancement request would be helpful (e.g. to allow 
JS 'prototype simulation) in that regard, to get us more flexibility? 
I am more interested in practical usefullness, than in some over-complicated 
object/class system ....

An idea of NTP scheme, but servers comunicates only on 123 UDP port. 
overview of time services:

Daytime:  Ascii response,  Graham and Ladislav has written a scheme/tool 
already  port 13

Time: most simple possible server listening on port  37 answer 32bit 
unsigned number of second from 1-1-1900/0:00 (calculation of human 
readable date is not so trivial because of leaping seconds inserted 
to UTC with no rule at all, an Earth is dancing a Jive in fact)

HTTP: use inserted Date-time from any header returned from server 
port 80

SNTP: more precise protocol (contains also fraction of second in 
reply) subprotocol of NTP on UDP port 37

NTP: most precise available to compare more time servers, and calculate 
with computed transport delay and phase shift from evaluated couple 
of handshaking packets.  UDP port 37

The latter two use minimally 12  32bit binary packets for request 
and response, symmetric or asymetric cryptography possible (honestly 
I've no clue why this).

In the case of your faces question, "faces" is a collective noun, 
and in function form is a request for a property or contents of its 
argument (don't know which), so FACES-OF would probably be preferred, 
leaving the 'faces word available to be used as a variable. Or GET-FACES 
if you prefer to emphasize the action of retrieving that value and 
have a corresponding SET-FACES function.

Graham I was never able to get connection using Doc's NTLM to IIS 
6.0.   Do did you have success with a Windows domain where you can 
display the login with a REBOL UI and then request information from 
IIS?

Ladislav, http://issue.cc/r3/1879is a bit complicated when you consider 
that "operator" is used in REBOL jargon only for infix operations.
Your request looks like 3 related tickets:

- Extend the INTERSECT, UNION and DIFFERENCE functions to include 
the current bitwise behavior of AND, OR and XOR, respectively.
- Make operators for those functions (maybe &, | and ^).

- Change AND, OR and XOR operators (and AND~, OR~ and XOR~ functions) 
bitwise behavior to conditional behavior.
Is this a reasonable assessment of your request?

As it's multi-threaded it works via callbacks with R3. For this we 
need a working WAIT on the Rebol side since it WAITs until something 
happend, that is signaled via a callback. Than the Rebol side can 
handle the request and send an answer via the C level.

nevermind. please ignore request.

Hmm... REBREQ looks very familiar.. very much like the Amiga's standard 
IO request :-)

I found out, that Genesi is now sponsoring Linaro Linux, which tries 
to unify distros for ARM target. They gave away 50 smartbooks:

http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2010/12/momentum-is-building.html
http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/smartbook


From past month's discussion with BBRV, I believe they are able to 
send us a machine to port R3. And now again - this is not my port-it-for-me 
request, just a note, to eventually start a discussion, how do we 
get ourselves on ARMs. Carl could have one smartbook to port Core, 
and someone willing to play with the HostKit port could have another 
one. In the case someone is interested, I could try to negotiate 
it with BBRV.


Of course - ARM is a broad term. I never heard of Linaro. We have 
some TI hardware, and I know there are some embedded systems for 
such stuff, mostly commercial and expensive, and Linaro might be 
an answer here. Another HW option is BeagleBoard (cheaper, more OSes 
supported, even QNX, Android):

http://beagleboard.org/

It wasn't a request for assistance. If you want to help, it will 
be welcomed. If not, we are doing well now. Either way you are free 
to use what we create, or not. Enjoy!

Ladislav, your request to make HALT catchable was in CureCode already 
as #1520. Please add your concerns in a comment there. That ticket 
needs a use case to catch HALT in addition to everything else.

That is why I had trouble understanding your request at first. What 
you were requesting was already the override policy: first come, 
first served.

That is why I got confused by your request: I thought you were asking 
for something different from what we were going to do anyways.

in any case, my request made explicit what IMHO needs to be done... 
it wasn't very obvious from the original idea.

The only way to get around SECURE's user request thing securely is 
to do it within SECURE, and restore it before the initial call to 
SECURE returns.

Documentation request referencing that link added here: http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1793

If you want a file requester: request-file, if you just want to spawn 
a new Explorer window for the user, this should work: call "explorer".

Aha, full circle. I seem to remember SELF was added by user request, 
and now it might be removed to simplify things. If I could remember 
why the user(s) wanted it...

Probably so. Request it.