AltME groups: search

don't know, I didn't want to say there is something easy, but there 
is something, but last time I looked into syncML for syncing my phone 
with my own software it seamed quite complicated (at least under 
Symbian), but I didn't check it out too carefully (I mean only from 
the Symbian C++ docs wasn't so easy to get the overall picture)

Good input. Petr, try to find out what it would need to code such 
an API with a scripting language. Just to get a better picture about 
the problem domain.

The Gripe:


Go here www.Rebol.org, then go here: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/, 
then here: http://java.sun.com/, hell even go here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/, 
now go back to www.Rebol.com


Even if you don't know what the language is or does, do you want 
to go to Rebol.org?  The main page looks like the last page in the 
basement of a website.  Almost like an "error page"

O There is no single location for all Rebol information.

O Rebol.net, Rebol.com, and Rebol.org are spread out and run by RT. 
O There is no pizzas!
O I don't "feel" community when I visit these sites.


I know I'm not talking to my audience when I say; "think of this 
like a night club" but this is what this is all about.  People want 
to "be where the fun is happening."  Even programmers.

My Suggestion:

O We need a site controlled by the developers.

O We need a forum where people can bitch and meet each other, and 
feel welcome.

O The site needs to have a consistent dynamic attractive template.

O The site needs to be a clearing house for all other sites.  Teach 
and directing people to all the resources.

O The site needs to paint a picture as opposed to describe everything 
with a thousand words.

What is entailed:


O Start a new site, I would propose "RebolCentral.com"  I'm willing 
to pay for it, but I don't want to be in charge of it, I suggest 
we make it a committee.


O The main page should cover every topic and reason anyone would 
come to the site.  This means we support every country and other 
site.  The idea here is a clearing house of centralized information. 


O News: The site needs to gather news worthy information and post 
that at the top.  The site is not alive unless people have a way 
to post their information.  This means that there needs to be at 
least one editor, if not several that share the task.  Every time 
a product is updated, the new features are mentioned.  When Carl 
updates his blog, it gets a single sentence directing people there, 
unless it is news of a release of something.  Etc.


O Product Reviews:   This is key.  Products need to be rated, reviewed, 
categorized, voted on.

O Video Archive: All the videos of all the talks ever given   


O Tutorials:  there are a lot of tutorials out there, but which are 
best?  We need to review the tutorials, rate them by Beginner, Intermediate, 
Advanced.  


O Forum: Start with major topics, and then break it down.  The forum 
needs to direct people to other countries, or support the other countries 
right in the forum.  Great simple forum: http://discussion.treocentral.com/index.php?styleid=1


O Respect the real estate.  The #1 mistake people make is treating 
their websites like just pages.  This is just like real estate, location 
location location.  We need to place the content based on where people 
are going.  So you build the basic site, watch it for a couple of 
weeks, then shift things around based on where people are actually 
going. 


O More art, more photos, more community.   It needs to feel inviting: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/

Stone soup:


I will pay for, host, and supply a fast linux system (w/archive). 
 

I will help design the templates, and provide (and buy if needed) 
great art for the site.

I will not run the site, nor control the content, but I expect there 
to be in place all the items outlined above, set up in a manner that 
it a) runs itself, b) puts the power in the hands of the developers.

I think you're talking about implementation details .. whereas R 
is looking at the overall picture.

I thought I'd show what I'm working intensely with right now (needed 
a break anyway):

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/db-console.png


Sorry, it's in Danish. It's the adminstration console for my own 
database engine (very, very different from Pauls engine, so no competiton), 
all powered by VID, Rugby, LIST-VIEW and a home-made database engine 
as well as my own build system. The screenshot is from a production 
system (never mind the word "development" in the window title, we'll 
just ignore that... :-)). The system is 101.2% REBOL based. Nothing 
else but REBOL/View 2.7.6 is used.

The administration program is one of currently 4 programs made for 
the db engine, the other being a statistics program, the third a 
heavily dialected and customizable GUI frontend for the db and the 
fourth is a more rigid and flashy front end for easy readability 
(very much thanks to VID). What's visible in the console drop down 
sheet itself is the result of some db queries, here doing some searching, 
and altering of db records. You talk to the db with a simple dialect. 
I wouldn't call it very fast or anything, but it definitely gets 
the job done and even complicated queries are usually 1-2 lines. 
For what you see in that picture, there is around 200 kb of code. 
Well, that's just what I wanted to say. :-)

IT would be cool if it had an output that was flat text (not REBOL), 
this way we can through it in a spreadsheet quickly, and over time, 
paint a picture of how people program... (size matters, but relative 
usage of REBOL is of greater interest to me).

No names spring to mind. Maybe the picture is too vauge for me.

Please post a picture of AltME looking bad on your flavour of Linux.

Beer pressure does work.... that is how I ask contractors to do things. 
 I call them over, and as I ask them to make changes, I pull out 
the ice from the bag, pull all the beer out of the boxes, and put 
it all in the cooler.  But the time I'm done talking it is all set 
up, and by the time they are done working, the beer is ice cold!


Graham, yes, great idea.  This is a model we have used in game rooms. 
 


It would be interesting in this context to see how people help each 
other.  I suspect it "might" be a zero sum game.  There are people 
that regardless of the facts simply help the underdog.    It is why 
so many hard criminals attract women from the outside.  


I have not seen anything like this though in Qtask.  I think the 
fact that you upload your picture makes you a little more "accountable", 
and that a moderator can kick you out.  Slashdot's system works pretty 
well, it might be fun to play with that more too.

Oh, now Ashley fills in more of the picture as I was typing.  Seeing 
as I can use either or all, perhaps I'll start getting used to all 
for this idiom. :)

BrianH wrote: "R3 has stack frames, so the entire frame - including 
the locals - is tossed after the function returns."


What is your opinion on this? Is it good or bad to make heavy use 
of the stack? I made some tests, but the picture isn't clear regarding 
performance. One test performed better in R3, another larger test 
performed better en R2.

this is for a pretty insane project I have which will use up about 
30-40GB of image data (once loaded pictures take up much more space 
than on disk, obviously), per output picture.

hehe I did the same :-)  I have an automated picture catalogue builder...

I'd like to use hdri imagery.  but with image size that can reach 
in exces of 100mb per picture... its a bit prohibitive on the amount 
of pictures you can take before offloading.

I was nagging you about the actors+message passing rebol lib I was 
playing with..  Now I have a real thing running with it .. I will 
post source code on blog soon. It's not that exciting video .. just 
some text changing :) but I hope it will help in getting a picture 
when I post the code.


On left is a Linux server with work dispatcher on  right are two 
workers on windows. There can be as many workers on many computers 
or none and workers can drop out at any time without work being undone/"halfdone". 


It uses message passing and actors for everything.. and comunication 
works like at tuple spaces so you get autobalancing. It's not something 
that special, you could do something roughly the same with http server 
app probably, although it would be a little more messy.

shall I send you a picture of me tearing my hair out??

You get longer line lengths in the standard style:

use [a][
    [
	a: 1
    ]
]

; picture a: 1 being slightly more code

Few additional notes, to not understand me wrong. I always try to 
see the bigger picture of things, not just from the pov of current 
View user. IMO VID should develop towards general "solution containers" 
= highering common ground for further developments. So - the solution 
is not to introduce one quick hack for particular style, but generalising 
things and letting ppl to develop their own solution, but using that 
common denominator. Good example is Rebol, its network protocol, 
and Uniserve - Uniserve is good example of taking things further, 
so each user does not need to start from scratch. In VID it is e.g. 
introduction of accessor functions. I suggest to try to find other 
"solution containers" :-)


The other thing ppl should think openly about, is to sacrifice backwards 
compatibility! I do remember ppl here screaming even about single 
change, which would eventually broke their code. Man, it sound like 
some of us woul never been with bigger projects? Our SAP workflow 
engine is some 50K lines, and when I asked my co-worker to add another 
functionality, he said - I will hack-it in, but I will REWRITE whole 
engine to be more flexible. So - that's me and ppl I work with - 
let's be sane - as I stated on ML - View starts from 1.3 ;-) But 
even further - let's not be selfish to the thousands of ppl, which 
may come to Rebol in future. I don't want to explain to anyone, that 
thing x or y is there because there was some compatibility issue 
with Rebol 0000.1 alpha and som eppl got tens of scripts already 
- that is imo selfishness in bigger picture, sorry to say that. Use 
old kernels for old apps. Our code will break anyway here or there. 
I prefer PURITY of solution instead of compromisses. So that is my 
message to future developments :-)

Is it really close to what you need ? If you can show me a picture 
of how the widget should look, I can see if rotate-knob can do it.

ie. 
	1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .... 
or
	1 2 3 4 5 6 7
	8 9 ...
Perhaps you can draw and show us a picture of it ?

Sorry, Robert. There is something I want to announce. :-)


http://hmkdesign.dk/list-test.png<--- a picture of the list view 
I'm building.


Currently about half done and quite usable at this time: It's resizable. 
Values are stored as blocks of blocks. All columns can be sorted. 
Input columns can be filtered so you can show only some columns. 
Columns can be freely reordered (but not in the GUI yet). One arbitrary 
column can be resized.

It has the normal range of series manipulation functions available 
in REBOL. There is also possibility for inline editing, by doubleclicking 
a line. Changed values are automatically stored in the list. All 
such operations are "bundled" in the list view VID code and you only 
need to provide whatever functions needed to store the list data 
in an external place. If a text entry is too wide, it'll be neatly 
cut with ellipsis (...).

Filtering function, to filter input by rows. Also has a scroll-to-selected-line 
function.

It's about as fast as the current LIST in VID, since it really is 
LIST with just a whole bunch of extra functions to make general list 
views easy. There are functions possible for clicking and double 
clicking and functions for retrieving rows and columns.


Current limitations: No mouse over indication (can't make it fast 
enough). Only one resizable column. No keyboard navigation. No horizontal 
scrolling. No scroll-wheel support. It doesn't integrate 100% with 
VID yet. I'm using some of my own widgets and bitmap graphics from 
a pretty big GUI library. Stripe look, font and coloring is locked. 
No standard settings yet for the list view.

All code is about 250 lines.


Planning: Reordering columns via drag'n'drop. Column resizing, if 
I can figure it out. Format the font object conditionally from list 
input (make this line bold if the age column is > 45 years, etc.). 
Grid drawing. Images in list rows. And if I can get around to it: 
Single cell in-line editing ala spreadsheets. :-)

what is font anyway? it's just a small picture with information how 
big it is. I'm not sure if Flash 9 supports kerning, but in the older 
versions - font is just a array of shapes with widths mapped to unicode 
ids.

just imaging the fun that you could add picture to any key code, 
so as you would type, you would display images instead of chars:-)

data: [

 ["3/20/1965" "75 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"] 

 ["5/20/1965" "22-75 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" 
 "Single Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]

 ["6/20/1965" "75 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]

 ["7/20/1965" "875 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]

 ["8/20/1965" "175 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]

 ["9/20/2007" "80 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]

 ["10/20/1965" "75 Pond Place" "Babylon" "NY" "11702" "Soleiman" "Single 
 Family" "Standard" "Form" "Richaard Soleiman"]	

gui: [
pic: image picture
]

coorx: [73 203 440 555 700 790 920]
coory: [281 346 410 472 536 603 662]
y: 215
append gui [at 264x72 text "Some Text" bold font-size 20]


		foreach dat data [
		append gui [
					at to-pair reduce [80 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/1

     at to-pair reduce [215 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/2

     at to-pair reduce [215 y + 15] text bold font-size 15 reform [dat/3 
     ", " dat/4 " " dat/5] 

     at to-pair reduce [452 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/6

     at to-pair reduce [567 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/7

     at to-pair reduce [712 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/8

     at to-pair reduce [802 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/9

     at to-pair reduce [935 y] text reduce bold font-size 15 dat/10
					]
					y: y + 65
				]
		
append gui [at 264x200 text "Some more text" bold font-size 20]
view layout gui

SOME TEXT

 and "SOME MORE TEXT" will appemd to picture but I only get the last 
 data block appended.

thanks, that is helpful...it is simple and is similar enough.  One 
thing I was wondering was if I have to do a load or not from ram...or 
a copy.   still experimenting.  I was trying a make image! to clone 
each picture..

I want to make a program that zooms in on a picture while I hold 
down the left mouse button and that zooms out when I hold down the 
right mouse button. Any ideas?

Hey!  I was just about to show some parse code and then you come 
along and make it a freebie.  :)  


Paul;  A good lesson right off the bat.  How ever easy REBOL code 
looks.  There is probably something built-in already.  REBOL is definitely 
a blinders off language.  Then again ... I think Ashley has something 
approaching a super power when it comes to quickly seeing alternate 
solutions and big picture implications.  :)

mike: the best tip I can give you is to picture a cursor in your 
head when you type your rules.  parse really is about iterating over 
a series on byte at a time and matching the next expected characetr.

You are right Henrik, even the programming I have done years ago 
was based on learning a set of tricks that worked in the context 
I needed, then sticking to those tricks for everything.  I can see 
that Rebol demands to be taken more seriously & I also appreciate 
the potential for "elegance and simplicity". I ride a unicycle & 
part of the appeal there is also the enjoyment of minimalism, no 
chain, no gears, no freewheel etc.


My understanding of "the system of REBOL" is about 5% I think & I 
feel like I haven't grasped enough of it yet to make my understanding 
move forward efficiently. I am just at the start of passing data 
to functions & because REBOL seems to automatically typecast a lot 
of data, it has not been in my mind that I may have to do it manually 
in some cases, but now I know that, I still can't predict which cases 
yet. 


With the lit-path! and path! data passing I understand that the invalid 
path I want to test must not be evaluated before it gets into the 
ATTEMPT section of the code, so I would expect to need to pass the 
data in a literal form I suppose (or as a string perhaps). One of 
the conclusions I am drawing from the example given is that I can 
pass this thing called a literal (I don't fully grasp what that is 
yet) but receive it in the function as a path! so it would seem that 
the passing of data to the function is also doing a type conversion.. 
At that point I don't know how the path! is not evaluated enough 
to cause an error.  If I search the core manual for "type conversion" 
it has only one mention, & not in this context. This is the sort 
of thing I do a lot to try & understand without asking too many questions, 
but my techniques must be flawed as I often fail to find anything 
relevant. (This isn't intended to be a question, just a picture of 
the muddle inside my mind).


Now I will read Bindology & hope that my understanding will be transformed. 
 Thanks again for all the help.

Dehex isn't an issue for me really.  I am only taking  a very small 
percentage of records.  So in the big picture, it's not a significant 
slow-down.  The process this is attached to runs daily on a group 
of text files totalling less than 10 MB in size.

One of the details I left out in the above overview is how clients 
actually render under wayland. By removing the X server from the 
picture we also removed the mechanism by which X clients typically 
render. But there's another mechanism that we're already using with 
DRI2 under X: direct rendering. With direct rendering, the client 
and the server share a video memory buffer. The client links to a 
rendering library such as OpenGL that knows how to program the hardware 
and renders directly into the buffer. The compositor in turn can 
take the buffer and use it as a texture when it composites the desktop. 
After the initial setup, the client only needs to tell the compositor 
which buffer to use and when and where it has rendered new content 
into it.


This leaves an application with two ways to update its window contents:


   1. Render the new content into a new buffer and tell the compositor 
   to use that instead of the old buffer. The application can allocate 
   a new buffer every time it needs to update the window contents or 
   it can keep two (or more) buffers around and cycle between them. 
   The buffer management is entirely under application control.

   2. Render the new content into the buffer that it previously told 
   the compositor to to use. While it's possible to just render directly 
   into the buffer shared with the compositor, this might race with 
   the compositor. What can happen is that repainting the window contents 
   could be interrupted by the compositor repainting the desktop. If 
   the application gets interrupted just after clearing the window but 
   before rendering the contents, the compositor will texture from a 
   blank buffer. The result is that the application window will flicker 
   between a blank window or half-rendered content. The traditional 
   way to avoid this is to render the new content into a back buffer 
   and then copy from there into the compositor surface. The back buffer 
   can be allocated on the fly and just big enough to hold the new content, 
   or the application can keep a buffer around. Again, this is under 
   application control.


In either case, the application must tell the compositor which area 
of the surface holds new contents. When the application renders directly 
the to shared buffer, the compositor needs to be noticed that there 
is new content. But also when exchanging buffers, the compositor 
doesn't assume anything changed, and needs a request from the application 
before it will repaint the desktop. The idea that even if an application 
passes a new buffer to the compositor, only a small part of the buffer 
may be different, like a blinking cursor or a spinner.

for example, if you want to slide a picture of a stars, you must 
first boost the gamma of the picture by 2, do the move and then apply 
a .5 gamma.  then, the AA will have spread out according to energy 
rather than color.  which means that the 2 side-by-side pixels will 
be at much more than 0.5 of the original 1.0 single pixel brightness.

I guess you are the third on the picture.. 8P

I gonna try to implement these menus sooner or later, but looks as 
right now it might be rather later. :-(

Also I would like to agree with Pekr, that icons and bubble help 
aren't really always the best ways to represent things. One could 
argue (and agree with some studies or opions) that icons are not 
helpful in learning an interface and as Pekr told, once you know 
them you don't know them because they have a good symbol or picture 
in them, but because you spacially remembered the position and can 
go straight to the point you know the sought for command is. Same 
with bubble help. Actually it's just kind of way to explain your 
bad icons, because else nobody knows what they are doing. 

So I agree that bubble help should be there in order to have them 
because people will still use a lot of icons and have to explain 
them, but better use a compromise as done with Opera, where you have 
the fancy icon but can turn on the textdescription of the icon, so 
that it appears below. Then you know what the button means, but have 
the fancy picture too. Stupid thing is just that you lost some screenspace 
to the BAD picture above the GOOD textual description. :-) Ok some 
people tell me now vice versa. But really one should think about 
what a small icon tells. The designer of course knows there meaning 
- but he's not the only later user.

Agreed. %tour.r and associated images added (also added pie-chart 
to tour under 'Graphic' - previously 'Picture' - category).

And a related question.. Is it possible to resize the window when 
my picture is changed, so that the new picture doesn't get resized 
to the previous one's size?

 Is there any way to circumvent this for items that need a specific 
 pixel size, in my case a picture?

 image defaults to size -1x-1 which means *not* specifying a size 
 will default it to the image size.


 Is it possible to resize the window when my picture is changed, so 
 that the new picture doesn't get resized to the previous one's size?
 This should get you going:

	display "" [
		button [face/parent-face/size: 320x240 show face/parent-face]
	]


Note that in this case the size *is* in pixels as you are modifying 
a face object directly (as opposed to specifying a wudget's *unit* 
size). Hope that helps.

Idea: I'm not a big fan of menus, tabs etc. to switch through an 
application. Looking at all these new GUIs from Apple styles (when 
viewing photos where it's like a fan and the middle photo zoomed) 
or the piclens stuff I had the idea how to use this for an app.


How about having a way where I can see a miniatur screen of every 
data-form in a 2D grid moving in 3D space, where I can scroll left 
/ right to the right picture, click it and get the data-form?

Some people do it that way, but many just use a picture fot the button.

I see a [ana] button in your picture

If you are on Qtask, and are in Rebol Sig, you can view this image: 
 http://www.qtask.com/files.cgi/Picture071.jpg?projectid=198&action=get&fileviewid=3698&filename=Picture 071.jpg

He is in the picture.

Unless you want my picture. : )

what is the best windows utility for viewing mp4's im having some 
problems with quicktime loses picture and sound when i try to skip 
to where i left off

The occasional focus changes were due to a bad autofocus situation. 
Any aleged drunkenness on the part of the cameraman wouldn't have 
affected the picture :)

and do you have the picture of Nick? (good way to introduce me to 
their faces...:-)

yes, that's why I was asking, you have all sorts of interesting thigns 
like do, reduce (rebol's), I have seen apply in R3 , so I see there 
should be a lot of interesting stuff possible but don't have a clear 
picture what is and what isn't yet

Once you start adding Draw into it though, I lose the whole. With 
R2 there is also the broken port model, design flaws and legacy stuff, 
so I lose the big picture a lot quicker. Python I don't know much 
about, and C is getting more complex all the time. I guess it depends 
on the head.

1. What method would you recomend for printing invoices ?

    I promised my sister, I will make small aplication for invoices till 
    the end of this week :)

    I guess best way would be making HTML or PDF file and then leting 
    systm deal with actual printing ?

    Or making a face looking just like the needed document (like print 
    preview) and then printing that picture ?

2. Is there a way to scale face ? like zoom in and out ?

amacleod: Worked fine for me but I only tried it with a very small 
picture (the rebol logo actually), if you tried a big picture the 
resulting data link might be just too long for copy & paste actions 
(really long text almost always causes problems). Just replace the 
last line (editor imglink) with

write %somefile.html imglink
browse %somefile.html

And it "should" work with bigger pictures.

I was able to embed a picture using outlook and it worked in gmail 
web mail...

What method does outlook use to embed images?

Moreover, BNFs, general formal grammars, etc... are actually systems 
that are meant to be usable for humans as well (at least mostly), 
in which case there is no implementation you could show to other 
people. (somebody wanting to show an x-ray picture of a human brain, 
or what???)

yes, you can see it in reactions. I have much deeper respect to proprietary 
guys like IBM or MS lately. Their technologies give me total picture 
of what I can use in our company. Well designed stuff. Those things 
might be complex, but well engineered (WebSphere). I will always 
be one refusing the servility. I have the same problem with Apple 
(Jobs). There is no problem with their products, but the problem 
is with the attitude and it starts to show. Even if Jobs introduces 
new icon on the desktop, he would get fanatical following. I can 
see the same wave of google fanatics emerging. The so called "google 
culture" is ... hyped.

in Datamatrix definition is written capacity of max 2335 bytes per 
one symbol of size 144x144 pixels, with some inbuilt compression 
it can be 3116 ascii characters (readable chars are ess than 8bit 
encoded), scanner may read mutiple symbols at once. much more importand 
characteristics is using reed-solomon self repairing code to ensure 
readability up to 30% picture damage for each symbol.

And here's a picture of my turbine http://www.compkarori.com/images/air403.gif

here's a picture from the roof .... http://www.compkarori.com/images/karori403.jpg

it is a pity, I would like to form a bigger picture - how all those 
things will be organised - library interface, plug-in interface, 
View - will it be just a component? What is /platform, etc.? So, 
patience and wait mode? :-)

Yes, please.

I think I lost sight of the overall picture when I added /only and 
/pad-only. (Reminds me of a similar thought process in another frenetic 
function creation a year or two ago (?)) I was not thinking of the 
functionality that DELIMIT covered when I was "designing" those refinements. 
So on further reflection, it looks to me like you are right, for 
CONJOIN, using INSERT rather than INSERT/ONLY on the DATA values 
is more useful.

but who knows - Carl promissed to post "bigger picture" diagram of 
R3, but maybe he forgot ....

Gabriele - so if Carl did not forget, then the whole picture of architecture 
is not clear yet, or is it? :-)

But - 1.3 project was about concrete implementation ... we wer loosing 
time with things like arguing over button's border thickness etc., 
not starting with bigger picture. But - for new View, there was promissed 
to be SMALL group (so small, that it fits Carl's idea of closed team 
working on new stuff), which will create bigger picture.

the same contradiction than what is occuring here happened, but I 
got insight, and the final result allowed me to have a clear picture 
of what to propose to Carl.

Henrik, yes it's easy to implement the menu-system in other programs. 
You give it a datafile with a format like:
[
	"Picture" [
		"Load..." [off "^^L" []]
		"Save..." [on "^^S" [RPproc/save-picture]]
		separator []
		"Flip" [on menu [
			"Horizontal" [on action [proc/flip-bitmap-horiz]]
			"Vertical" [on action [proc/flip-bitmap-vert]]
		]]
...
and you have a menu.

Gabriele - you constantly provide the same picture, and if we guys 
don't change attitude, we will not get new ppl attracted.

that is why I think we should think about signatures (which is just 
a hash) and certificates in a bigger picture - mainly when we think 
about SDK apps or browser plug-in apps with lowered security level 
... the truth is, it does not need to come with initial release, 
but should not be forgotten about.

AFAIK GLUT is simple wrapper which has been used mainly just to show 
some basic OpenGL demos. I'm not sure if this is a good  for usage 
in some 'real' crossplatform apps.

Regarding the OpenGL version of Rebol: this version is not yet worked 
on but I plan to work on it once the AGG based version is complete 
(as it this will give us much better big picture where the OpenGL 
advantages could be really useful in the visual system).

AFAIK the plug-in interface is not yet finalized so it is too early 
to discuss ho this will be exactly exposed.


But there are more things to consider than the blitting. If you do 
SW redered graphics you need to render into the  backbuffer in the 
main memory then you transfer block(s) sing a blit to the gfx card. 
If you do HW accelerated graphics you need to transfer all bitmaps 
into the gfx card memory first..also you are limited by the OpenGL 
2D functionality (which is not so flexible and pixel perfect as for 
example AGG implemntation). Also setting pixels directly in gfx card 
memory is possible but this is surprisingly the slowest way to dorendering! 
Why? Because fur current PC HW bus architecture is such transfer 
very expensive operation comparing to moving one big block of data.

So as you can see all this (and lot of other issues) needs to be 
considered not to mention that the solution should be as much as 
compatible on most of platforms.

Once the beta is released it will give us good picture how to make 
the gfx system even more optimized and extensible.

Thanks Henrik - it surely is VERY interesting and I suggest every 
one to read it, to get bigger picture of what VID3 is going to be 
about. It answers many worries in non-technical language, easy to 
understand main concepts ....

I just started an R3 console. Everytime R3 starts, it displays a 
splashscreen with rich text, a picture and two buttons in it. When 
I close it, stats returns 1276368 bytes.

Gabriele, I understand you. Mov might be technologically even superior. 
So I don't know if it is licencsing of Apple or ignorance of Windows 
probrammers, but - I just want to use one codeck pack - ffdshow for 
e.g. It is some 5 years I met some video, which was not able to work 
with it. Any player! But - quicktime is painfull exception! I don't 
want quicktime player! I want it to play with any player I choose. 
And it does not seem being so. So, I have also VNC, just to have 
such problems as getting sound, but not picture, etc. So - no mov 
for me.

I agree that quicktime for windows does not at all show a fair picture 
of what quicktime is capable of.

If you open up a design process even to highly qualified people, 
you are already on the first step towards design by commitee, which 
is entirely against REBOL's design philosophy. If the people are 
less qualified, it's the second step and you can end up trying to 
handle more noise than getting actual code done and the project will 
then truly move at a snail's pace.

I'm sitting in that position in my job projects, which has caused 
about two full years of delay, because I'm forced to write crap code 
to meet some silly deadlines. That code then later needs to be rewritten 
to meet my own personal quality requirements when no one else is 
looking at me or judging my work before it's done.

I'm sure Gabriele has a complete picture of VID3 in his head and 
it does no good to trample around on that picture, before he gets 
the chance to complete the work. I'm also certain that Carl has tried 
both things and going underground simply works best.

I LOVE REBOL  that a fact but rebol is a hum how to say that without 
hurting Carl .... not achieved. Carl start things and never finish 
them and that ends to an incomplete picture and the fact that rebol 
is considere as a cool toy but not as a professional thing.

A bit of status:


- Carl ran into a bug in the AGG C++ code: "draw 10x10 []" in the 
console will crash R3 and it's a tough one, as it might be compiler 
related. Not fixed yet.

- Some of the stuff that BrianH has talked about above is now implemented 
in a new build of R3 as well as some additions to MAP!.

- My ramblings on DRAW has caused me to pause on skinning until I 
can get a clear picture of whether the problems will be fixed. Otherwise 
I'll have to redo a lot of work later on. I experiment with compound 
styles instead as well as some simple color palette tools.

- It was decided that popup graphic elements are to be done in separate 
windows for greatest flexibility. No code done yet though.
- No talk about overlays or drag'n'drop yet.

What is the style the picture shows? List-view? Or some grid prototype?

Steeve, when Reichart posted that photo and you said I looked crazy, 
I was worried that my eye strain from the glare was showing in the 
picture. I couldn't see the picture, as I was in it. Having seen 
it now I should have been more concerned about how loose clothing 
makes me look 30+ pounds heavier. By the way, last week was the first 
time most of the REBOL community had seen me, or any met me.

Dide - look at picture name, you will decode it :-) But - BrianH 
is imo the guy similar a bit to the mixture of The Edward Scissorhands 
and Thec Cure singer Robert Smith :-)

This is one of those things where a picture is worth a thousand words. 
 We need a diagram of the hardware and software set up, and show 
WHERE encoding becomes a problem.

For example, if you paste some text from a Word doc into a webbrowser, 
 this then gets moved to the server.  Then it gets rendered out again...you 
wil run into problems with encoding.

Word use some SPECIAL encodoing for things like " : - and '

this is maybe a good idea to develop something in gihert level language 
to figure out all bits and pieces and algoritms, and then when you 
have a good picture port it into c

As for looking over Carl''s shoulder, I've been more following the 
process and discussions. If you know the REBOL semantics and have 
experience implementing this kind of thing yourself, the big picture 
is obvious. Carl's better at this than I am though - I can only guess 
so far.

basically I don't have the full picture, it's just awesome that something 
like this can be done inside a language itself

The way I see it (now)is R2 is just a product thatI bought that gives 
great value. But who knows.... tomorrow there might be this awesome 
language called "Zen" and after 2 years I am so good with it... you 
get the picture :-)

in an app I tried to build using R2 a single picture took 40MB.  
I need to edit 10000 of them and output them in a picture that take 
about 1GB of space.  saving 10kb... really I could care less.

A test could be to run
random 1.0

many many times and save the results coming close to zero. Like my 
other test, checking if the result is within the first 1024 number 
close to zero. After running the test many times, a picture can be 
seen.

The space between possible decimals around 1.0 is:


>> (to-decimal #{3ff0 0000 0000 0000}) - to-decimal #{3fef ffff ffff 
ffff}
== 1.11022302462516e-16

The space between possible decimals around 0.0 is:

>> to-decimal #{0000 0000 0000 0001}
== 4.94065645841247e-324


That's a huge difference. So it'll give a strange picture, if converting 
the max output of random (1.0 in this case) to 0.0.

Geomol - it might be complex, but it serves the purpose to define 
wrapper functions, like object, context, etc. So you can createy 
- my-picture-obj :-)

ruby, perl, tcl/tk python are all doing now in days computing history 
where is rebol in this picture ?

I tested under OS X with prefix math, and the same picture is seen. 
If it's because R3 isn't compiled for speed, then that might be the 
answer, so this isn't an issue.

It's a big picture balance thing. The optimizations were rebalanced 
in the change from R2 to R3 in order to increase overall power and 
speed of REBOL. REBOL has never been a math engine (not its focus), 
but now it can be because of extensions. Everything is a tradeoff.

IIRC, having multiple instances on Windows was significantly harder 
than on UNIX platforms. I'll run a full testing on that issue tomorrow 
to get a better picture.

When I go to it it shows Carl's picture twice with one that says 
"drag me" under it.  But when I try to drag it - it does nothing. 
 This is on IE8 and also on Chrome.

Sorry, I thought the draggable picture was the demo

can anyone get a login for the cheyenne wiki?


I'd really like to put down my trials and errors of building my own 
cheyenne mod (with handler), so that others may benefit of knowing 
the few little caveats which can make the whole thing fail .... 
maybe do something like a step by step tutorial to begin with.


I'd also like to document all the phases of each internal layer of 
cheyenne (there are many), so that we can more easily navigate the 
code, knowing what we are doing and what other phase is part of each 
type of mod,extension, service, etc.   often, we see just one or 
two parts of a system implemented per module and its hard to get 
the whole picture.   


ironically, looking at the base objects is also hard to do, since 
there is so much "internal" code that it gets REALLY hard to understand 
what is internal, what is "interface" and what is provided as helper 
funcs for your own systems to use.  Add the fact that there are many 
layers sitting over each other, some layers which aren't actually 
layers of code, but layers in the "chain of command" and various 
phases.


now that I've made sense of a *portion* of this, I think I'm well 
placed to start documenting this.   I think that having a complete 
api reference for cheyenne would be really good for adoptance.


It would allow many of us to simply create integrated tools which 
just drop into cheyenne.  (like remark)

Even if it means changing a lot of tickets, the difference between 
those should be more clear. Using severity to declare difficuty has 
been useful both to decide which tickets to do when and for negotiating 
(not everything can be fixed, and not everything is really a bug). 
But we haven't really been using the developer priorities, because 
there's too many tickets, and because we have been going with more 
of a work flow system instead of a priority system, except for crash 
and block bugs which get higher precedence if we can. Managing priorities 
has been mostly done on a per-developer basis, with me keeping track 
of the tickets as a whole, and Carl doing the big picture.

It's more confusing to understand the big picture than it is to actually 
develop and use the code. The code generators are quite helpful.

sync behaviour is depicted in this picture. basically each READ will 
WAIT on the tcp port until the response has fully arrived

if i can if i have access to the whole source code, but i will try 
...  most of the time i need to see the big picture to get ideas 
on how to proceed ... a mono C# clone intent have been tryed 4 years 
ago it was spirit then sudently the author disapeared and that's 
it ...

sorry for PHP ... that was to get the picture ... of what i ment 
...

I also like this picture from BM 2006:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/colorstream/3380559272/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Kinda not of this world. Reminds me of "21st Century Foss" (Chris 
Foss paintings).