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Hi Doc, I didn't express correctly in my last post and you missed 
the point - I already know that Red will be prototype-based but the 
question is : will the object model implementation you'll use be 
flexible enough to permit you and/or the end-user  to easily extend 
  Red with other  new types, or change primitive functionality and 
semantics at some later time. The author of this article has done 
some studies and experiments about this fact and within his 16 pages, 
he explains how it could circumvent these possible limitations without 
sacrificing efficiency - even if I'm not advanced enough to take 
his word as truth per se. I thought it would be useful to you to 
see such writing before you committed to much material, based on 
your current architecture and internal implementation details - about 
which I don't know anything, I must confess. Sorry if this is more 
of an annoyance than a useful tip but I thought it could be useful 
as a reading to anyone interested in implementing some programming 
language - be it not fully Red related.

I'll finish my new CMS first, or I should say publishing system together 
with the scripts I put on rebol.org lately. Then I will be able to 
publish code and story easier within my pages. I don't want the massive 
make-doc-pro and makedoc2 isn't my flavor. The ancient version from 
Chris Ross-Gill looks good but has some choices I dislike. So I am 
struggling with it too make it easy to use and with it I want to 
be able to generate a pdf version using Gabriele's pdf-maker script.

Content, I suppose. Probably not size, as Windows works with pages. 
I checked them in, so they can be retested

GrahamC: yes, I totally agree. I am quite often out of Internet connexion 
for long periods, so I do appreciate long html pages that I can save, 
rather than bunches of small html pages. A large pdf is even better. 
Or a large .txt file, actually.

Red is certainly not ready for prime time now. What we need now is 
testers and contributors. So just putting a link to source archive 
in a Download section wouldn't help much, as users would have no 
clue what to do with it. Again, there's a "Fork me on Github" button 
on top of all pages on red-lang.org. If users have no clue what Github 
is, then they are probably not ready for contributing. I will add 
a Download section once we have binaries for Red compiler (encapped 
versions of R2 compiler for now).


Once Red gets ready (documented and in beta state), I will open a 
new site that will be fully user-oriented (in contrary to the current 
one which is followers/contributors oriented).


About Red/System: it is meant to be a dialect embedded in Red, however, 
its intrinsic value seems to be high and will be higher as we add 
more feature and optimize it. Maybe it could be a good selling point 
for making some low-level programmers come to Red.  As Red/System 
is much more mature than Red, maybe I should think about opening 
soon a dedicated web site for it (would still need a binary version 
of the compiler)... What do you think?

Without those features, there's no reason for anyone to take a look 
at REBOLish stuff.  It's just weird syntax, as far as they're concerned. 
 Take a look at http://www.runrev.com/products/livecode/LiveCode/
.  18 pages of feature description.  That's an attractive list, and 
I think should be read by everyone here.  It provides some perspective 
as to how much work is required for Red to become a viable competitor.

Just click on [Pages] menu to list all pages from the wiki.

It combines most of my bindings to create an alternative for a web 
browser. It's a graphical program that loads pages and apps written 
in Red from our web server and executes them

You can look at how other similar pages are filled and add some sections, 
like an HelloWorld example in Red and Red/System.

I'm upgrading from 3GB to 12GB, I kept having "out of memory" error 
after opening a few dozens web pages and starting some heavy tools 
like Eclipse, Android Emulator or various VM...now I should be able 
to run everything at the same time. ;-)

As you might know, I wrote a R3 book in Chinese, trying to attract 
more people to the REBOL camp. It sells very well so far. But I would 
like to attract more than Just Chinese. So I decide to translate 
it into English and make the English Version free. It's a slide with 
320 Pages. This slide is colorful, beautiful, and easy to understand. 
I would like you guys to help me correct my English before I put 
it to the public. I would also like this gesture to make Carl feel 
the support and love from the community.

The guys at Etsy added Chris's library and my tutorial to their developer 
pages.  https://www.etsy.com/developers/documentation/resources/developer_resources
 I really think there's a marketing opportunity for REBOL, doing 
these sorts of tutorials for other web APIs

Please note: Scroll through the pages since we sometimes combine 
several MDP files into one page. Not the nicest way at the moment, 
but works best to avoid so many pages. The start is for MDP itself 
and R3-GUI / Actors.

Floring, we are already full of this kind of pages: 
http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.rebol.com/docs.html
I suggest you to contribute to the REBOL Wiki.

However, if you prefer doing something else you are always welcome.

I adapted four of the Red GTK examples to run in the Red browser. 
They are now pages on our Redsite, with links listed on the front 
page:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/index.red


You can view/run them without compiling or even installing them, 
from the above Red browser program.

My English is not very good. Writing a book in English is very difficult 
for me. I might need to hire someone to help me translate it into 
English and make it an e-book. Good news is, my publisher is willing 
to let me put 1/3 of the books in slideshare or somewhere like that 
to share with others when the book is published. BTW. The book is 
about 330 pages.

You can see some pages of my REBOL book here http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/large/6037fd14jw1duv0gjoatwj.jpg
It's a colorful book :-)

Where are all these tutorial? The problem is reaching tutorial pages. 
It''s all spread around the world, without an index.

Look at this pages http://www.maxvessi.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.GuidaARebol
   http://rebol2.blogspot.comhttp://http://www.maxvessi.net/rebsite/wr/ 
        I try to unify all documentation, but it's missing a central 
index.

Every pages is carefully drawed and layouted. To make the English 
Edition of it, I have to re-layout every page. Since English Sentence 
is shorter than it's Chinese one in most of the cases, I will need 
to re-layout everypage. the aspect should be change from 4:3 to 16:9 
or 16:10. This will take some time for me to prepare.

Henrik, It's PowerPoint. I make a slide with 320 pages. I asked myself 
not to use bullet-point to make it not a traditional slide.

Some sites like to add md5 checksums to their downloads pages

Kaj, where exactly is the window32 binary in http://archives.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip
 ?


Every click on a .exe takes me to more and more html pages.  Most 
confusing.

@Giuseppe,: No, wiki software is mediawiki, to have a good support 
 multilanguage you have to install a mediawiki for every language. 
I just adopted http://www.informe.comfree solution ready to use; 
and I haven't many option as superuser. However creating and importing 
pages is easy. If you have already a wiki, export pages in a XML 
file, and I'll import the pages.

I wrote several hundred new pages for the "business" text.  I need 
to go through the previous material.  Any other corrections are welcom.

You can easily create an object! (ie a set of words) from the CGI 
input.
This articles explaiins how:
   http://www.rebol.org/art-display-article.r?article=x60w
....Section 3 is the quick guide

....The next few pages describe all the things that can go wrong 
(probably more than you need to know right now)

....Section 7 points you to a script that handles all the edge cases 
for you.

I use Artisteer to prototype web pages, and it saves content in UTF-8. 
Later on, I need to do few adaptations to such generated pages, so 
I opened it in R2, reparsed, inserted some stuff, deleted other, 
but it did not work out ....

Pekr, look for Oldes' UTF8 package for Rebol 2, I believe it's on 
rebol.org, it can convert anything (it supports downloading code 
pages from net) to/from UTF8, I really saved me lot of time when 
I was working on translations for Windows Vista.

Petr, if you need a quick command line codepage converter program, 
try txtcnv32 here: http://www.ltr-data.se/files/txtcnv32.zip

It lets you specify code pages by number. The documentation of the 
code page numbers is here:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd317756(v=vs.85).aspx

i'm trying to extract article text from an awfully written series 
of html pages - one sample:


http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/vadra-/a-little-helpmy-friends//489109/

I've used the HTML parser from PowerMezz to parse complex web pages 
like that

I also have 'Rebol. The Official Guide' which at 700+ pages is massive 
and way too much. Also, no graphics included, so I would not necessarily 
recommend that as an introductory course book.

Back in 2001 I created an intranet site for a local celebrity by 
making the database tables, then having R2 use the 'columns command 
to generate column lists that were used to autogenerate the server-side 
pages for the intranet. All it took was one function call per table 
to generate the whole site. Restyling the site just meant editing 
the HTML template in the function (this was before CSS was practical).

When I was trying to learn REBOL, the most helpful document was the 
cookbook,
http://www.rebol.net/cookbook/


Different subjects, but covers almost all the subjects, and they 
are all complete. If we do something like that and give links to 
related wiki pages about the topic of the example, it would be a 
great way to learn RED for beginners.

And the most difficult thing was the fragmented docs, we should avoid 
that..

I think that something like http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/REBOL_Programming
is the best thing. You may organize topics, correct, edit and add 
pages

The work I did was related to publishing to mediawiki directly from 
REBOL. This way, some mediawiki pages could be auto-generated.

We might have another good alternative option to the wiki (maybe 
easier and more flexible): use a github repo for all the    documentation 
pages in makedoc format, and have external export batch script to 
export them in HTML, PDF or whatever format.

So storing the docs in source format in a DVCS repo would allow us 
to generate static web pages for the docs, avoiding   (potentially 
painful) tweaking and maintainance of a PHP-based wiki engine.

Are you also thinking of serving the docs site(s) from github pages 
as well?

http://pages.github.com

AdrianS: Github Pages uses Markdown format, they have no support 
for makedoc.

GitHub Pages also serves up static html/css/js. Still, if you couldn't 
use any server-side scripting, you'd need to pre-generate the html 
and I guess you wouldn't want to do that.

Pre-generated HTML: I certainly do want that. I have already a static 
server, so I don't need GitHub Pages so far.

Looking more at sencha/ext-js and closuredocs, I like aspects of 
both. Sencha has some very nice detail pages, and closuredocs has 
a clean feel, with easy ways to add examples, see also entries, and 
comments.

A document would be trickier as you'd need to manage line spacing, 
paragraph spacing, splitting paragraphs/docs over pages.

Yes, it managed only a single page, and yes, the hard part is flow 
of paragraphs across pages, not generating multiple pages in itself.

MaxV: I will gladly let it to Carl to sort out. He was reshaping 
a wiki for nearly 3 months, and there are something like 75K pages 
of content. It is also kind of autogenerated/automated. So - do you 
want to do many things manually?

I've spent a lot of time with MDP, written a whole distributed application 
with pages based upon the principles of MDP.  The biggest mess in 
MDP is the need to make HTML pages, which is a fossil and pretty 
awful, but widespread.  People need HTML so we output that.  People 
may want PDF, or RTF or Postscript or MarkDown, or whatever.  Those 
parts will always be a mess because the formats of all those outputs 
are a mess.

Well, we've been encouraged lately to put these up, and we can point 
other pages to SO if need be, or copy the answers to a documentation 
page when we have those. I mostly see it as a place to write short 
documentary articles in a Q&A format, much like Yahoo answers is 
a place to write jokes in Q&A format.

I took the liberty of taking AdrianS's posting, reformatted it to 
Markdown (only minimal changes necessary), added IRC, reordered things 
slightly, and updated two few counts.

Here's a rendering of this updated Markdown document to HTML:
http://bolka.at/2012/rebol3/pages/community-radar.html

Here's the Markdown source of the updated document:
http://bolka.at/2012/rebol3/pages/community-radar.mkd

Sunanda, Can it be a manually maintained xml file until it can be 
automated?  I am doing that for my internal blog until I add the 
automation code to blog. r (that I expect Carl already has on his 
version).  I have a trigger for when a blog article is added to use 
"editor ftp://...../rss.xml"to make whatever additions that I want 
to expose via RSS.  It's suboptimal but I don't have any complaints 
from the people that they have to visit the pages to see What's New. 
 And since they weren't visiting regularly to poll for What's New 
anyway, if the RSS feed it updated a few hours later it is still 
an improvement.

Regarding Carl's blog about hiding rebol scripts in web pages, I've 
always wanted a way to directly execute a rebol script from the library 
from my rebol console.  I used this trick of embedding a rebol script 
between [ .. ] in my offline mail reader, and wonder if it can be 
used in the library as well.

The first stage of having community links at REBOL.org would be meaningful 
content in personal pages.

We could the time them together or pull out highlights to make some 
overview pages.


If someone wants their website (etc linked to from REBOL.org), the 
first move is up to them.

Thanks Oldes.

Part of the problem is that all pages served from REBOL.org are served 
as
   charset=utf-8
even if a specific needs a different charset.
We need to make that more flexible :-)

Hello everyone,

I have an EditME me that I'm using to manage a project this summer. 
I would like to use Rebol to logon to my wiki, edit some pages and 
attach files to pages.

Are their any code exemples that I could use to understand how to 
go about this. I need to be able to fill in forms and send them in 
to my wiki. 
many thanks

after those, the RBBS project does some dynamic pages generated from 
databases and key values http://www.rebol.com/docs/cgi-bbs.html
  HOWEVER, when delving into anything CGI (not wiki link, so maybe 
not what you want) it takes some heavy head-scratching

(I used what you mentioned in the DevCon web pages, BTW)

Kru, is your phone listed on the syllable pages ?

at least here in CZ, or maybe it is more of an EU nature, simply 
managers want references or case studies. Last slides of most product 
presentations is - who else does use it? Pages full of logos. It 
is even usual, that during the contract phase, parties agree to even 
accept some reference business trips from other parties. It works, 
managers feel safe, that they are not alone using the solution ... 
well, marketing ...

And the code is so horrible and disoranized, that what should be 
done in 2 pages spans 5 modules of source code!

but strange that the normal pages worked.

I'll have a look at the index pages.

Good to know !!

Looking at some log on a server I have to administrate, Im affraid 
to see many request trying to find  some /ebay, /lassalebank, /admin, 
/phpmyadmin pages on the site.
Internet looks more and more like a jungle.

Then, no I think of putting "robots.txt" file, I just think that 
some hackers can use it to exactly do the opposite of what it's suppose 
to do. They probably have make som bots that  just pick all pages 
marks as 'dissalow in it. If you don't know the name of the pages, 
it's a good place to find some !!

system/options/cgi/remote-addr is not registered, apparently, so 
I can't edit pages.

Does anyone have a nice "easy to use" sessions code like php so I 
can "secure" pages like the rebol blogger editing?

is it possible to extract/change a cookie from the site a plugin 
is working in?


  I have embedded an app within an IIS served web site.  I must make 
  the reblet interact with the site's cookie, so it follows the rest 
  of the site's status when relaunched (browsing to/from the app from 
  other pages restarts the rebol app).

Maarten, I agree with your observation and you can even scale it 
more.


If you see a web-server as just a request dispatcher to CGIs and 
a fast-answering-machine for user-feedback (pages, forms etc.) you 
just need a small and "simple" one like Cheyenne. The CGIs can be 
distributed to different cores (through the OS) or even to different 
machines (via TCP/IP).

We have a template based dynamic site here at work,  we use a base 
page to define the common logic, we use CSS "templates" to define 
the areas of different pages... the above code is Template 3 area 
3, which is the body area for a page that has a header, left navigation, 
body, and footer area.

Yesterday I talked to one web designer, let's say he is not too much 
experienced - he is good in graphics, but not so good at understanding 
all webdesign/browser related tricks. However - he told what I am 
thinking for some time already and Chris will not eventually agree 
- css is fine, but why do all .css based pages look the same?

Petr -- there is no design in non-CSS HTML that you can't achieve 
with CSS -- even if you need to use barebones tables occasionally 
to do column things.  The statement "why do all .css based pages 
look the same?" might as well say "why do all web pages look the 
same?".

Chris - I know what you mean, but css pages really look so "similar" 
:-)

The biggest advatnage you'll find in workflow is when the client 
starts making changes.


1000 pages all with <font color=blue> and they now want all <p>s 
to be green -- that's not a search and replace job -- you need to 
check the context of each <font> tag.. It might take hours. Next 
day, they ask for dark yellow.
In css:

p {color:blue} -- you can show them the whole site changed in 1 minute.


Though, of course, you need to think through the styles you need 
first. That's a big bit of the design.

I'm doing an example now on tabbed pages. I hope it'll be easy to 
understand. :-)

that's why I have made logging in obligatory to edit pages

If you need a simple XML spec, don't forget my RebXML: http://home.tiscali.dk/john.niclasen/rebxml/
(Only a couple of pages.)

It's an easy way to work with XML inside REBOL, and on the same page 
you'll find scripts for converting between XML and RebXML.

just a note to Sound. Some time ago, when Cyphre tried to do media 
player in REBOL for us, he complained about some bugs in smooth playback. 
Carl released C code for the sound system in REBOL - this is some 
2 - 3 pages of C code (mostly wrappers) IIRC? Maybe we could fix 
few things for next R2 release?

When you load, the file has to be LOADable by rebol, which means 
everything in it must be parseable into rebol values.

When you read, the file can be absolutely anything. I usually have 
to read web pages and parse a string, for instance.

Hi at this moment there are only old not so uptodate pages related 
to the dialect here: http://oldes.multimedia.cz/swf/

I would like to make new pages for RSWF dialect during the weekend.

Worked great! Is there any way to pass AS vars to a rebol block? 
You must think I'm crazy but this is an amazing piece of coding and 
I am determined to use it. I'm curious but when you created your 
work for the incredible web pages you've done, did you make libraries 
or are they basically one large script?

Pretty cool though to script firefox .. so that you remove ads from 
your favourite pages

Check the build pages.

I plugged it into my Mac yesrday, and went portrait with it, it is 
pretty amazing.  you see twice the hight, and web pages look like 
they are meant to.  also being DVI makes it really crisp.

Both PostScript and PDF ref. manuals are found on www.adobe.com. 
I took a quick look and found out, that PDF is mainly a document 
format incl. things as hypertext links and logical structure information 
for document interchange. Postscript's primary application is to 
describe the appearance of text, graphical shapes, and sampled images 
on printed and displayed pages. It makes good sense producing PostScript 
from REBOL to enhance printing abilities, and if it's much easier 
than pdf (as Graham points out), there is good probability of success. 
And supporting PostScript doesn't exclude pdf. We can have both, 
and it's two different things with different goals.

Desitions have to be made about the dialect structure. Should the 
outer block consist of font-specifications and pages, or isn't that 
structure the best for PS? A better understanding of PS is needed 
to answer.

Would it be normal in PS to define the font before anything else, 
and then describe pages with paths? Is that the structure?

New version. The postscript block consists of font definitions and 
pages. A page consists of paths and transformations. Try:
do http://home.tiscali.dk/john.niclasen/postscript/postscript.r

print postscript [font [Times-Roman 20] page [path [at 72x72 rotate 
45 "Hello World!"]]]

I note that if I browse from one page to the next  (using links at 
bottom of each page) , the subsequent pages won't load ..

Konfabulator widgets are more comparable to regular reblets running 
in View. Just because they are implemented in XML/CSS, doesn't mean 
they are held to the same behavioral standards as web pages.

thanks for the feedback. i apologize if i conveyed the idea that 
security discussions are noise. What I mean is that I don't have 
the bandwidth to sift through pages of discussion and build the plugin 
at the same time. So, for my sake, we need some kind of itemized 
system where Carl and I can tackle the issues one-by-one.

pekr, I sort of agree with you, but it's impossible to ignore how 
widespread flash is, not for apps, but for animations, stylish pages 
and now video with youtube and video.google.com. I actually think 
the easiest way to watch video is through flash.


The point is though not really what flash does, it's how it gets 
spread. I think REBOL/Plugin should emulate that behavior as close 
as humanly possible. people who have installed flash, would know 
how to install REBOL/plugin (visit a specific site, wait for download, 
click 1-2 buttons, done). That initial "installation experience" 
is incredibly important for the widespread use of REBOL/plugin. If 
people can't use it within the first 1-2 minutes, they'll forget 
about it and move on.

source for each of the rsp pages is at the bottom of the screen

Will "Mike, I started using Apache and rebol as cgi, this is not 
suited for performances as on every call to the cgi, a new instance 
of rebol is  initialized, run and closed.

I thought about using fastcgi, but never came to a working solution.
Now I use uniserve as main webserver, here some advantages:

-it is fast! On my local machine I get +- 600 req/sec for static 
pages and a max of 160req/sec for dynamic rsp pages

-it is written in rebol, I could easly(less than 10 lines code) add 
a rewrite engine

-child process are persistent, this mean you can keep state of your 
web applications, implement caching, keep a pool of connection to 
databases open (in apache + rebol/cgi you'd have to open and close 
the connection for every request)
-it is written by Dock whom I may be the biggest fan ;-)

btw I'm running an unreleased version (have bought commercial support) 
 that support http 1.1, stuff like If-Modified etc..

If you have more specific questions, I'll be glad to try and answer."

Can RSP pages retreive content using async http and return them to 
the client?

pekr, remark is EXACTLY that but templates are not only for pages, 
but tags are templates... all code is outside of page and very easy 
to make your own tags.

the only thing it needs is someone to adapt it for cgi use... I have 
too little CGI practice and no real need, atm... so its hard to put 
time on this... but its a rebol script, so its easy to adapt.  all 
it would need is to check if its been started as cgi and call a different 
startup, which only prints out one file.  for static pages (which 
CAN include dynamic conent like sql queries) then its a very good 
solution which already supports site magamenent and ftp xfer.

that is probably true. however I may change the architecture a bit 
since the parser is limited to two levels and is not recursive. the 
pages are generated from a limited list. all I really wanted to do 
was to make it easy to combine blogger.r, makedoc documents, dir 
listings and customized html output in a pipeline. it does most of 
that now, but the parser is only about 80% elegant. :-)

I've set up a wiki at http://devcon2007.on-arran.com/(template to 
match the official DevCon site).  I'd be obliged if willing DevCon 
attendees would create pages with revelations and announcements from 
the conference, and also if non-attendees could help keep it organised.

How about a game where people must optimize search? but  the ranking 
is based on the statistics  both own. then you need good statistics 
and must optimize your avatars(pages) to match them

Wow, I can't even make a virtual DevCon :(
Neither of those pages work for me.