AltME groups: search

so, guys, not having OX-X here ... could you give it a test drive 
and post onto OS-X group here?

Holy-days? :-) OS-X version finally coming? :-)

let's move reports to OS-X group ...

eFishAnt your right !!! in a C# ressource explorer motion (wich you 
can see in Shardevolp IDE for example ) could be an amazing thing 
and even more if the same code all you to do so on evry OS rebol 
stands in

Dear Library Team,


   I've only got a single script in the library, but I like it, and 
   I'd like it to live through the R3 update.

Are there any plans for adding explicit rebol versioning to scripts 
that want to stand the test of time?


   Is having multiple binaries on target REBOL platforms a no-no?  Meaning, 
   could the released binary packages for REBOL 3.0 include REBOL 1.3 
   (2.7) executables so scripts don't age out as fast as they did when 
   going from 1.2 to 1.3?  A little bit of configuring on the host OS 
   to start the correct REBOL by extension, shebang, or resource fork 
   on MacOS?  Can DO add a secret launch of older/other binary if a 
   Needs: is specified?

Curious.

OS X has a default palette of rather bright colors for highlighting 
to choose from, suggesting the text colors to be dark, so the text 
still can be read when selected.

it is overall interesting issue - to get rebol running on various 
platforms in a way so it adheres to particular platform habits .... 
OS-X, WinCE being reported as Rebol feeling kind of hostile there 
...

that will work as the same on every OS that rebol stand in ;)

os use |  2 CRLF

I think the real problem is that open-source project can't invest 
into a hudge advertising campaign like  commercial apps. So the only 
way for open source project to be known is beeing included into open 
OS distributions :)

Kaj, why AGG nor Cairo were found as insufficient for Syllable purposes? 
IIRC it is Cairo, which will be used by Mozilla platform or even 
OS-X to render, no?

you guys are terrific :-) In current days, when only Windows and 
Linux are considered as having chance to succeed, well, I forgot 
OS-X of course :-)

how does the reboot time for syllable compare with other os's?  Does 
it make it viable to run as a server?

Because what I expect from usable OS is: browser, communication tool 
(IRC, ICQ, ...), audio software, some office suite (it's needed sometimes), 
REBOL and some games (or UAE ;). That's what I'm using 99% of time.

using different version of the same lib just because they have a 
different name is something you can do in any os. a newer version 
of a library should *always* be compatible with older software, so 
that you never need to have two versions.

Brian, exactly. The fact that MS still dominates the world of OS 
and Apps when there is so much OSS is a very good example.

no, I don't have x-windows powered linux here ... I was just curious, 
as there were some features not supported iirc? but maybe I am confused 
because of os-x version ... well, agg does not use fonts, but dunno 
if true or not ...

because im building some draing tool ...did it under windows but 
like to build it under linux as it is my main Os...

nice .... what about OS-X - does it use FreeType too? Windows uses 
TrueType, right?

echo $OSTYPE display the "type" of OS using tsch shell. 

On a Mac it echoes darwin

my linux troubles (this is longer)


I'm pretty frustrated at this moment, maybe somebody can help me...


I'm linux newbie, I'm using it for 6 months or so. I've installed 
Ubuntu for my girlfriend and it works OK. So I decided to install 
linux for me too. I've got Athlon X64 computer, so I tried 64bit 
version of Ubuntu. But you cannot run 32bit programs under 64bit 
Linux, so no REBOL or AltMe. OK, I can live with 32bit linux, no 
problem. So I installed MEPIS. It's not bad, it has got media support 
but...it's KDE.


I never knew anything about KDE vs. Gnome vs. whatever wars, I just 
don't care, but day after day I found KDE to be bloated, slow and 
buggy. Compared to elegance of Ubuntu on my girfriend's computer 
I decided that I just don't like KDE, I don't like all that menus 
where I'm always lost, long loading times, that awful blue theme, 
childish icons and everything K-labeled. Every window and every button 
on KDE looks so BIG compared to windows GUI, it's just a waste of 
screens's space. So I tried different window managers and found Xfce, 
icebox and some other small and fast window managers. But running 
MEPIS with different window manager than KDE was not optimal so I 
decided to remove MEPIS and install xubuntu. Everything was OK and 
I had xubuntu instaled.


One day later I managed to exchange my gfx card. I was using Matrox 
Millenium 2MB PCI card and exchanged it for 3D labs Banshee 16MB 
PCI card (I know that both cards are somehow underpowered for my 
computer but that's OK, I don't play any 3d games, so I don't need 
some new card). I've booted into Windows and everything was OK. I 
can even select resolution better than 1024x768 (because that's not 
optimal resolution for 21" monitor :-) So I restarted and booted 
into xubuntu. x-server didn't start. 


As I said, I'm linux newbie so I don't want to mess with some config 
files so I said to myself OK, I reinstall it, it's just one day old 
installation, no problem. I've booted the live-cd, grub let me choose 
resolution of 1280x1024, I booted xubuntu and - it was running in 
640x480. Yes, I had the choice to change resolution - but only to 
320x240. I tried ubuntu (gnome) and it was the same. ubuntu's x-server 
probably does not support my banshee gfx card. I tried MEPIS also 
and - it worked! I can boot mepis 3.3.1 live cd in 1024x768 (but 
not more - with windows, I can go up to 1920x1440). But when I boot 
mepis, I do see that KDE desktop thing and it makes me feel sick 
(hell, even windows seem to be more fun to use than KDE for me!).


So, what now? I cannot use windows only (1. i don't like it :) 2. 
it's got problems of its own - it cannot download files bigger than 
cca 1MB without error. Probably some driver problem but I still haven't 
found a sollution. this is not problem on linux) and I don't like 
KDE. I know that there's one sollution - to buy relatively new pci-x 
n-vidia gfx card and problems may be gone. but that's not what I 
want to do. That 3dfx banshee is good enough for me, I just want 
some fast and small OS running on it.


Maybe I'm just missing a computer that can boot in 15 seconds into 
full GUI enviroment (yes, my old Amiga :)

1) Think multicore
2) think memory is cheap (2Gb per core)
3) Typically,  /Core  consumes 8 mb of memory

4) do not encap, use  amodule management system like my 'require 
or Ladislav's 'include

5) wrt 3 and 4: the OS starts using its disk cache etc. After a few 
hits these operations will be cheap

6) do all session mgt etc in a database => sales up as well, no state, 
share nothing

Now, what happens? The OS will start distributing the CGI processes 
over the multiple cores. Using the disk cache etc to speed loading 
times, enough memory per core on the processor. A 8Gb RAM quadcore 
should be able to run +- 1000 procs/sec (rough estimate). That's 
just one box, with that load it should be profitable. And as you 
obey rule 6, you can scale up and load balance pretty easily.

not virtualising OS this days is imo a mistake, no? :-)

Are you sure OS distributes CGI processes to different Cores? Is 
e.g. Apache working that way?

If they are separate processes, the OS should balance over cores.

Gregg: really? I thought that the reason why R3 will use threads 
for tasking instead of tasks is, that OS can better balance threads? 
Anyway, those questions are for gurus, I can only wonder :-)

petr, the processes are managed by the OS too. *obviously* the os 
will distribute processes among processors. (unless the os has no 
multiprocessor support, that is). distributing threads is more difficult 
(because of the shared memory), however all good threading implementations 
should do it, and if you programs the threads correctly you can get 
the performance boost.

Maarten, I agree with your observation and you can even scale it 
more.


If you see a web-server as just a request dispatcher to CGIs and 
a fast-answering-machine for user-feedback (pages, forms etc.) you 
just need a small and "simple" one like Cheyenne. The CGIs can be 
distributed to different cores (through the OS) or even to different 
machines (via TCP/IP).

As Carl said in his blog, RT will focus on the other OS. So not so 
long to wait for an universal readmail ;)

Rebol uses the host OS's filesystem. If you are on WindowsXP it's 
most likely NTFS, from Microsoft.

OS has a proxy auto detect  option. Does anyone have an example to 
do this?

Try again. Altme has an OS proxy auto detect  option. Does anyone 
have an example to do this?

If I imagine more complex style as e.g. grid, with Romano's system 
you had ability to create resize groups, to anchor something to different 
face etc. But then RebGUI seems to follow different target then I 
thought. I want full OS compliancy in behavior ...

yes, now I understand it too. It is not for OS compliant apps, but 
for kind of embedded devices ones :-)

Yeah, that's more like it.  But it can be used to provide simple, 
clean OS independant applications too...

Vincent: rate suggestion ... done (overlooked in 0.1.3)

Robert: Will the splitter be integrated into the next release? ... 
Yes

Pekr: "I want full OS compliancy in behavior" ... which OS and what 
skin?

Ammon: "RebGUI is ..." ... spot on, and I like that sentence so much 
I'll add it in some shape or form to the main page ;)

Ashley - it was long discussion at some stage of View 1.3 project, 
but shortly - my opinion is, that we don't need to skin anything. 
IMO it is good and vital, if we are distinguishable, so ppl can say 
- it is that colorfull app, Rebol :-) What I have in mind by OS compliancy, 
is behavior, so mainly keyboard handler, but also mouse reactions 
etc.

Proper and OS compliant behavior is imo MUCH more important, then 
skin ...

Pekr: visual focus like which OS? It isn't the same on Windows 95->2k 
and Windows XP, and there are other OS. Mouse reactions changes a 
lot between OS too.

Vincent - right. That means, we have to adapt to OS we run on ....

I find hover effects quite distracting, and not really useful - as 
if users didn't know that the boxed thing labelled "push me" was 
a button. But since it becomed the rule on some OS, here a simple 
one for 'check :

Ashley for table I have Clui 4GUI installed on my os so If I arrive 
rapidly to an efficient solution with ctx-menu I will start some 
work on the table ...

Min-size limits the OS window size on resize only, the documentation 
will be updated to make this clearer (note that the OS window size 
includes an unknown number [to REBOL/View at least] of border / title 
pixels that varies by OS / Window style).

There were some OS upgrades on this server in mid-april that required 
to put down the web site.

normally this shoutcast solution is supported by all OS and computers...

On the face of it, it looks as if I need a primary partition for 
each OS and an extended partition for my data (which I'll break into 
two or three NTFS logical drives).  But what to do first?  Should 
I set up these partitions, then run the installs, or run each install 
hoping they do it for me?

About US$700 I think.  Runs windows tablet os.

unfortunatly, probabaly not rebol related.

I want to try to use two (usb) optical mice as DIY motion encoders.
my first questions are: 

When you have three mice plugged in, how to get the os to ignore 
two of them?

How to get data from the two you have gotten the os to ignore into 
a program?

What OS's are your primary/clients?

H: which method did you use to install the server on OS X?  I have 
the test working successfully...

a ps3 with linux is something that i want to eventually try... (well, 
a ps3 with rebol/os would be better, but...)

Consoles dont need that much drivers. Could be a nice target for 
an own os. But i guess coding at the game-level will cost lots of 
money.

I think, it's ok with a big monitor, if it has high resolution. Then 
it feels ok to sit so close to the image. And you start using your 
OS desktop in a new way, having e.g. the browser window at one side, 
other windows on the other side, etc. instead of always on top of 
each other.

I've spent quite a bit of time looking at Inkscape (http://www.inkscape.org/) 
and it seems to be the only / best SVG game in town (their command-line 
driven SVG to PNG conversion seems to be particularly well regarded). 
Looking forward to their 0.42 release as it supports OS/X as well.


The Clip Art site that they link to (http://www.openclipart.org/) 
is also a treasure trove of Public Domain files (which solves the 
GPL concerns I had with many of the dedicated KDE / Gnome icon sets). 
I'm also looking forward to their release 15 which seems to be just 
around the corner.


Lots of good news in the SVG world, I wonder how long before mainstream 
browsers start supporting it? (without plugins).

I still take as SVG workshop / reference software INKSCAPE  pretty 
good LGPL  sofware available for  all OS.

Josh, recording ? There are only OS specific ways so far.

Oldes, thanks. Do this

 load-thru/update http://anton.wildit.net.au/rebol/os/make-external-library-interface.r
then try again.

well, just kidding ... it depends .... easy things are easily don 
... if you will insist on OS behavior compatibility, there might 
be some work included - but for scientific kind of stuff, it is pretty 
good imo. I do remember how relatively easily I got my results with 
Matlab ..

First release of  COMLib-anton    (Benjamin Maggi's COMLib, reengineered)
http://home.wilddsl.net.au/anton/rebol/os/windows/COMLib/

http://home.wilddsl.net.au/anton/rebol/os/windows/COMLib/files.html

COMLib website update:
Added outlook-calendar.r and outlook-contacts.r demos.
Fixed a few bugs in the main rebol interface file, COMLib.r
http://home.wilddsl.net.au/anton/rebol/os/windows/COMLib/

I don't know of anyone that's wrapped the ability to use native Windows 
controls in a REBOL dialect, though it *might* be possible. I think 
Cal (and maybe Cyphre or Oldes) have emebedded native OS windows 
in a View window. You might also be able to do it by creating your 
own windows, using the API, and then interacting with them behind 
the scenes. It would be a lot of work though, and be highly OS specific.

Pekr: You can create and control any windows dialog if you have the 
API available. (and this can be applied to any other OS feature). 
So it is possible to create native GUI controlable at the higher 
level of some dialect(simmilar to VID/Rebgui). People who are making 
common apps don't need to access it at face level but ofcourse such 
system would be based on face-like objects with methods related to 
Windows GUI elements etc.

of course, maybe it just depends, how professional you intend to 
be, but as I showed you, completly OS compatible look is not so important. 
What is imo more important is the feel. If we can't get visual representation 
of accelerator keys, ctrl tab, rich text, key precise behavior for 
ui elements, that is what I see as a problem ....

the question is, with Google and others pushing the envelope, how 
long OS itself will be driving factor of IT evoluion, or it will 
become a commodity :-)

From my POV  View is still very ligthweight and powerful system for 
OS independent solutions.

I think that what Henrik feels as a problem is not actually "look" 
at all, but it is the "feel", which is the culprit. I expect UI elements 
as drop-down, etc., react to keyboard, mouse, just the same as if 
it would be OS app, or it is denerving, stopping my productivity, 
which is based upon certain customs ....

Cyphre - I also agree with your another pov, which you had in the 
past. It all seems simple at the beginning, but once you delve more 
deeply into it, things start to complicate. Bringing native OS binding 
for Rebol imo would cost many resources. And I believe first version 
would be just ugly wrapper, containing more or less stright conversion, 
using Win32 logic. Isn't there a fact, that others do use other, 
mainly cross-platform bindings? We have View, but wouldn't native 
toolkit project be just reinventing the wheel? Others use tk, gtk, 
qt, wxwidgets, etc.

don't you think we need new windowing system for browsers? I think 
that view layout is not good model anymore ... it opens new OS window 
... but that will be regarded being a popup .... we imo definitely 
need rebol own windowing system ...

- red-icons problem - untill particular rambo ticked is resolved, 
rebol's windows time-zone can't be in any way be regarded as being 
correct. and it does not depend if it is the bug of the OS, or rebol 
somehow ommits summertime adjusting flag of OS (if there is any under 
Windows)

Internet Explorer 7 under Windows Vista runs in a special super-low 
user access mode that gives the browser very little access to the 
underlying OS, and ActiveX security has been tightened up significantly 
as well, with most ActiveX controls off by default and set to opt-in 
rather than opt-out. Hopefully other browsers will follow suit and 
operate in this least-privileged mode, too.
 - Like IE is a model of good security practices!?

Gaining root access to a Mac is 'easy pickings', according to an 
individual who won an OS X hacking challenge last month by gaining 
root control of a machine using an unpublished security vulnerability. 
On February 22, a Sweden-based Mac enthusiast set his Mac Mini as 
a server and invited hackers to break through the computer's security 
and gain root control, which would allow the attacker to take charge 
of the computer and delete files and folders or install applications. 
Within hours of going live, the 'rm-my-mac' competition was over. 
The challenger posted this message on his Web site: "This sucks. 
Six hours later this poor little Mac was owned and this page got 
defaced".

The problem imho is not necesarily the OS but how all the apps and 
networking layer on the OS are configured. by default. OBSD is paranoic 
for this so very little is open or install, but as you install things 
like apache, you maybe opening holes for system exploits.

openbsd is regarded as the most secured opensource OS. I am shure 
than the NSA has something better. Two of my friends work for them.

isn't openbsd or netbsd regarded being one of the most secure systems?
 ... I thought MVS (IBM Mainframe OS) has that honour?

MVS is called Z/OS these days.

Hard to hack -- but then not many people wouid have the skills to 
even get started: the concepts are so different to what you'd expect 
from a PC or UNIX background.
But not impossible

That Mac article (from MS-owned ZDnet) has been widely discredited. 
From a follow up article on OSnews:


The ZDnet article, and almost all of the coverage of it, failed to 
mention a very critical point: anyone who wished it was given a local 
account on the machine (which could be accessed via ssh).


Original ZDnet article: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/Mac_OS_X_hacked_in_less_than_30_minutes/0,2000061744,39241748,00.htm
Follow up challenge: http://test.doit.wisc.edu/

I thought that you want the opposite - to run OS-X on general x86 
hw, no? :-)

From Henrik's link above: 

What's the difference between OS X and Vista?

Microsoft employees are excited about OS X...

Thanks Henrik, you just made my day ;-)     running windows XP apps 
on OSX natively!  HAHAHAHAHA  get the better OS, and the better Software 
and run them together.  event though they wheren't meant to even 
support each other from the start   :-)

because you loose a lot of the goodies in OSX if you don't develop 
for the OS. not even the integration put forward here could make 
up for that

Also OSX can print PDFs directly, it can even render directly to 
any media, because it includes a PDF render in the OS.

I lean toward PDF too, but the dialect is not much fun to use, it 
can take a long time to load, and you have to preview it before printing, 
not too mention versioning issues. Thats why I had been looking for 
a BMP printing solution. I was considering using PS for printing 
only images directly to printers, which would still be nice--mainly 
for non-win OS's. I think this would be much easier to impliment. 
I dont know squat about post script, but it could potentially be 
just a hack.

Ditto: http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/ConceptDraw_MINDMAP_Professional_for_Mac_OS_X/1118155814/2

I havent done the OS level UI, just the work area system... but the 
OS level GUI is a piece of cake.  basically, just an interactive 
browser of your data cloud, using the query language and user d specified 
tags and information classification.

basically I want to use rebol 3 core and wrap it within an OS shell.

well only to handle the edge of the graph, since the computer/OS 
isnt't running within a graph

but I have spent many hours using liquid, testing it prototyping 
it, and even building an OS Operating Environment with it...and I 
now know its a viable idea.

Content of Carl's presentation was updated:

Introducing REBOL 3.0
 by Carl Sassenrath

(The content will be spread in probably more than one session)

Opening and a historical note.


What makes a system popular? Is it the language, the platform, or 
the applications? The bigger picture: the virtual OS. Moving beyond 
conventional OS models. Being a latform. The core of modern applications 
- it's not what you think.


The motivation for R3. The guiding theme. Portablity and extensibility 
- the R3 open foundation. Overview of R3 features.


Environments - embedding REBOL. Building your own version of REBOL 
- within a standard. Plugins - extending REBOL. The IO device model 
- how to create a device.


New datatypes. The Module architecture. Tasks, threads, and more. 
The new graphics system. All new port design. New debugging methods. 
New object tricks. DB access nd indexed files. IPv6 discussion. Compatibility 
- taming the lion. What's next? When and where can you get a copy? 
The goal of DevBase and DocBase.

hmm, it would be cool, if those devices could run Rebol OS one day. 
With R3 that is a possibility one day :-)

R3 status update:
  240 kbytes
  57 data types
  71 actions
  124 natives
Missing so far
  async http
  security requestor
  unicode OS API 
Release dates:
  select developers 1-jan-2007
  primary developers 30-jun
  general developers: 15-jul

Carl says Unicode issue is mainly the OS interface.....That will 
be part of the Open source part of REBOL....Hence need to find a 
Unicode expert to write / design it. It could be you, Petr!

mm VLC on os x doesn't seem to work

don't you have quick-time native player on OS-X? :-)

REBOL is the language, AltMe is an application (Virtual OS actually) 
based on it.

it is the dll only, so it's like R2 Core without the OS dependent 
parts

I am curious about the model of tasking :-) Own one? Or just mapped 
to external OS capabilities? I would prefer Carl OS message passing 
.... :-)

I just checked the code. I made it under Linux, and it gives an error 
regarding a "dirty?" variable with View 2.7 under OS X. I can get 
it running with 2.6.

There are 2 OpenGL implementations for REBOL already. One by Cyphre, 
that require REBOL/Command (I think), and mine requiring GLServer 
(compiled C program, only for OS X so far).