AltME groups: search

yup, old, and still on the list for the next rev.

This was asked for a couple of times in the past.  Currently AltME 
does not have a way to do this.  It is on the list though.

Of course, if you want to make changes, you can build your own AltMe 
clone, as this 'list' of future AltMefeatures are likely vapourware?

Reichart, ever since Altme came out, you've been speaking of the 
"list".. not sure how many years so far.  What was the last update, 
scrolling?  If you don't want to update Altme, that's your perogative, 
but the "soon" and "it's on the list" vapourware speak only bears 
on your reputation.  I know.. I do the same thing :)

Top of my list.. pick me up one of these..   http://indyskate.com/kickpopmike2.gif

I'm not really interested in debating with you, and other than this 
last statement on the topic I won't.  I'm only responding because 
there are a lot of new people here who might not be clear on the 
facts.


Vapourware is "New software that has been announced or marketed but 
has not been produced." We have been produced, people use our software, 
and it sells.  


Nor do we market or claim any of the new features people ask about. 
 People ask, and we tell them whether it is on the list, or if we 
are going to add it to the list.  We don't commit ourselves to a 
date.


You might not like these facts, but your accusations are inflammatory 
and baseless.  

The facts:


AltME came out as Beta, and we systematically brought it past version 
1.  We met our needs and goal.  If you would like something updated, 
I will give you the bank account number to transfer funds to, we 
can set a rate, and you can have any update you like.


We have never said no to any idea for AltME, we discuss them, and 
log people's ideas so that when we make changes, the ones most asked 
for are reflected (this group here on Rebol3 is not our only source 
of input).


If you do not like the rate with which we make changes, or the reason 
we make changes, then this is going to be a painful environment for 
you to remain in.


Otherwise I will state again, we are active on the development of 
an update to AltME, and we have no set date.   


If you would like to ask a constructive question I will always do 
my best to give a clear answer.  If you simply want to needle and 
dig at us, then I can no longer engage you.

I completely understand your reasoning,

But, in our universe we:


1. Make change systematically from a giant list of features and bugs. 
 The means multiple people checking in code that is often changed 
several dozen times and overlapped by different people.


2. The once compiled, an array of computers and operating systems 
are cleaned (often reinstalled from ghosted images of hard drives) 
and sent through a complete test suite.  


3. If anything fails…the team has to be taken off what ever they 
are working on at that moment.  Then repeat the test cycle.

This is what we release as Alpha or Beta.  Gamma is a nightmare.


These realities are interleaved with all the different products we 
work on.  It means that before we do a release candidate of anything 
we have to weigh our test-team's schedule, confirm the majority of 
developers are available.  And not just for the release, but everyone 
has to hang around for the next couple of days because after release 
there is a high chance someone will find something.

Wouldn't it be just a hour of work or so
 

No…

Yes, that was considered.  We have a list of about 20 models.  Our 
next AltME update (being tested right now) will start the process 
of creating seperation form the free model.

Feature is on the list (annoys me too).

at the bottom possibly? how about making room for a button panel 
just below the list of groups. I think some of the options related 
to editing that list are a little too hidden

Carl,  the Clear-All button could go in the "list options" though 
that's a bit hidden.

Is there a list of changes coming up?

A linux build is still planned for soon (but there is a reason I 
did not captialize the L in linux in this sentence - it's on my bad 
list this week)..

Does the file have execute flag set?
To get a long list and see flags: ls -l
To set execute flags: chmod +x <file>

Reichart, I know this is on the "list" but do you think we'll ever 
see the Altme "minimize to the system tray/little window notifying 
one of a message." for windoze? My MS compadres insist that they 
need it. Bill Gates must put some kind of addictive substance in 
icon tray. But I guess once you get used to being notified that way 
it's a hard habit to break.

So please list the groups you are missing and I'll get around to 
zipping them up for you perhaps tomorrow.

with an ability for the user to list what files are auto-synched 
and the date the file was last updated so they can turn it off if 
they choose.

here's an idea: how about some kind of softlinks to specific places 
internally to AltME? Say I want to link to another group, a specific 
check list or a calendar day, a bug report in a bug tracker or a 
file in the filesharing tool.

On hte list already.  We are looking into XPath type stuff right 
now in fact for other stuff as well.

don't know if that is in the todo list, but for exporting conversations, 
would it be possible to cover up email addresses?

That is not on the list.  Please post that to Feedback on AltME.com 
 Thanks.

New little game? A list, rows randomly turn red, click fast enough?:)

I have a customer who is afraid to install AltME because they are 
afraid it is spyware.  Anyone have a good list made of promises or 
in the website is there some way to ally this fear?

actually synapse chat maintains a list of all you type .. but only 
the last message is accessible

1. Yes, on the list.,
2. Not yet,

This is on our list for Qtask, but not AltME exactly.

As to AltME, our scolling is taken from the system.

 <--- actually I think the scroller in VID is buggy, because I have 
 many of the same scrolling problems with LIST-VIEW as are present 
 in AltME.

you could also make the window smaller for this group. Page scrolling 
scrolls about two pages if the size of the list is about 2-300 pixels.

I think that Cyphre or someone else could be contracted, to improve 
feeling to AltME in a big way - e.g. list-box with available worlds 
is simply awful - typical VID bug - you can't escape it by pressing 
escape, you can't escape it by clicking outside, you can't escape 
it in any way ... that just makes so bad impression here ....

Other thing - after all those years, list style could be updated, 
to allow keyboard scrolling, or even shortcut search of groups ....

is there a list of changes somewhere?

I kind of miss a list of changes in a window, when asking whether 
you want to upgrade

anton:


1. on Machine A, an XP box, I create a bat file and add it to my 
file sharing list on my world

2. on Machine B, also an XP box, I open AltME on that same world 
with the same user account and notice that a new file is ready for 
download.
3. on Machine B, I click it and it downloads.

4. on Machine B, I click it again, and it immediately opens a DOS 
shell window and runs.

Hello, I'd like to create a data window like the one you're looking 
at now. This isn't an "area" gadget is it? I've created a "list" 
out of an area but each row is the same height regardless of content 
and it crashes a lot if I try to scroll the individual rows. Any 
suggestions?

James, you want LIST styles ? There is scroll-table:

there are some absolutely brilliant GUI's that various REBOLers have 
designed.  I don't know where to start the list...and there is a 
layout.r tool which generates a GUI from a pallete of styles...not 
sure what you are looking for

agree, very flexible dynamic code generator. increasing the gadgets 
like list, tree  tab (e.g. as macro) will be very nice too :-)) thx 
for heading me to this.

Volker:  You must also remember that everyone is human - I think 
that's what most people forget.  How he presented his code to the 
developers could easily have been the reason they didn't include 
it.  I haven't seen the kernel mailing list myself, so I can't say 
for sure, but - he said it's a very unfriendly place, and so likely 
positioned himself accordingly, defensively.  He said himself that 
defended his work as much as possible - without budging.  That's 
the kind of person I hate working with, and the kind of person I 
actively ignore.

Use Debian  :)  My Dev system has been auto-updating since Potato 
(2.2), I rarely use Unstable packages, but Dev lives in Testing and 
I've not had any problems.  Spike and Chester stay with Stable sources.list 
and I trust the Debian development model (not released on any time 
schedules, but only releasesd when the DD's have finished bashing 
each other around).  I hope they fight the urge to go with release 
dates, even Ian Murdoch is pushing for release shedules :(  but he's 
at Sun now, so I hope that pressure subsides.


To be more to the point.  I keep all my work (and user accounts) 
rsynced on three different machines, backed up to CD and USB memory 
stick on a semi-irregular basis.  I plan for system restore from 
the boot disks, the list from apt-show-versions and a documented 
list of manual steps for things like the Linksys, /etc/hosts, /etc/ssh/sshd_config 
et al and Cheyenne config if anything does eventually go sideways. 
 It might be a (much) longer restore cycle, but I trust that more 
than backup/restore mirroring.  I've avoided the VM model, but that 
seems to be getting some good press now-a-days.

Sorry, Carlos...I'm a Debian user, but I serve the web using Cheyenne. 
 I'm not sure what you need exactly, but I would have started here 
 http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.0/mod/mod_mime_magic.htmlSo one 
you have the mod_ file in the right place, it seems you need to configure 
with

MimeMagicFile conf/magic


to use the default list of magic numbers.  If you need more drop 
another note.

Does CentOS have update-rc  by any chance?   update-rc.d httpd defaults 
 will configure the init.d scripts for all default run levels on 
Debian.   For CentOS (I don't know CentOS utility bits) try
# chkconfig --level 235 httpd on
# chkconfig --list httpd

Which will set httpd to run at levels 2 3 and 5.   *Assuming # is 
the superuser prompt, not the bash comment.

Ok, I was just about to say ... how are you getting the schemes list. 
  That looks weird, but I was going to suggest it must be opening 
the system/schemes object somehow.  I would be confused.  Not that 
that would be weird. :)

Yeah if you do go bash, (I'm not sure how you get your file list) 
ls -F will append @ to links instead of looping over test -h

btiffin, ok, so using a key with ssh looks like a good thing to do 
then. It's on my list.... :)

And the developers are gamers too, so the list of supported apps 
usually starts with games, then works down through the other applications.

things like list sorting in widgets like table or listview in rebgui 
could profit form rebcode optimisation

If anything, the conversations with Gabriele remind me of those we 
had on the list where we reverse-engineered REBOL's context handling, 
back when it wasn't documented.

What am I doing wrong here:

rebol []
do %sqlite.r
do %rebgui.r

if not exists? %id.txt [write %id.txt 1]

db: %indodex.db
either not exists? db [
    CONNECT/create/flat/direct/format db

    SQL "create table base (id, Nama, Alamat, Telefon, Handfon, Fax, 
    Email, Tgl_Nikah, Nota)"

    SQL "create table birthdays (id, Nama, Jenis, Hubungan, Tgl_Lahir, 
    Agama, Nota)"
][
    CONNECT/flat/direct/format db
]
unless value? 'ctx-rebgui [
	either exists? %rebgui-ctx.r [do %rebgui-ctx.r] [do %rebgui.r]
]
set-colors
tab-size: 120x55
fonts: reduce [font-sans-serif font-fixed font-serif "verdana"]
do show-cc: make function! [] [
display "IndoDex Ver. 1.0.1" [
    tab-panel #HW data [
        "Add" [

            label "Title:" priority: drop-list 30 #W "Pak" data ["Pak" "Ibu" 
            "Sdr." "Sdri." "Drs." "Dr." "Tuan" "Nyonya"] 20x5
            return
            label "Nama:" nama: field 
            return
            label "Alamat:" alamat: area 50x30
            return
            label "Telefon" telefon: field
            return
            label "Handfon" handfon: field
            return
            label "Fax:" fax: field
            return
            label "E-Mail:" email: field
            return
            label "Nota:" nota: area 50x30
            return
            button "Save" [
                (id: to-integer read %id.txt)

                SQL/flat/direct {insert into base values (id, Nama, Alamat, Telefon, 
                Handfon, Fax, Email, Tgl_Nikah, Nota)}
                (write %id.txt id)
                show-text ex-status "Saved"]
        ]
        "Edit" [
            
	]
	"Search" [
	]
    ]
]
]
do-events

Here's the latest version:

rebol []
do %sqlite.r
do %rebgui.r
unless value? 'ctx-rebgui [
	either exists? %rebgui-ctx.r [do %rebgui-ctx.r] [do %rebgui.r]
]
set-colors
tab-size: 120x55
fonts: reduce [font-sans-serif font-fixed font-serif "verdana"]

if not exists? %id.txt [write %id.txt 1]
i: to-integer read %id.txt
i: i - 1
either not exists? %indodex.db [
    CONNECT/create %indodex.db

    SQL "create table base (ID, Title, Nama, Alamat, Telefon, Handfon, 
    Fax, Email, Tgl_Nikah, Nota)"

    SQL "create table birthdays (ID, Nama, Jenis, Hubungan, Tgl_Lahir, 
    Agama, Nota)"
][
    CONNECT %indodex.db
]
do show-cc: make function! [] [
set-colors
display "IndoDex Ver. 1.0.1" [
            label 16 "ID:" id: text (to-string i)
            return

            label 16 "Title:" title: drop-list 30 #W "Pak" data ["Pak" "Ibu" 
            "Sdr." "Sdri." "Drs." "Dr." "Tuan" "Nyonya"] 20x5
            return
            label 16 "Nama:" nama: field 
            return
            label 16 "Alamat:" alamat: area 50x30
            return
            label 16 "Telefon:" telefon: field
            return
            label 16 "Handfon:" handfon: field
            return
            label 16 "Fax:" fax: fax: field
            return
            label 16 "E-Mail:" email: field
            return
            label 16 "Nota:" nota: area 50x30
            return
            button "Save" [

                ;UNCOMMENT THE FOLLOWING LINES AND YOU WILL SEE THEY DON'T WORK. 
                ANYBODY KNOW WHAT IS WRONG?

                ;SQL reduce ["insert into base values (?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, ?, 
                ?)" id/text, title/text, nama/text, alamat/text, telefon/text, handfon/text, 
                fax/text, email/text, tgl_nikah/text, nota/text]

                ;SQL {insert into base values ('Pak' 'Ibu' 'Sdr.' 'Sdri.' 'Drs.' 
                'Dr.' 'Tuan' 'Nyonya' 'Jonew')}
                (i: to-integer i)
                (i: i + 1)
                (write %id.txt i)
                (i: to-string i)
            ]
            button "GUI Info [

                print [id/text " " title/text " " nama/text " " alamat/text newline]
            ]
            button "DB Info" [
                print TABLES
                SQLite/col-info?: true
                print SQL "select * from base"
                print SQLite/columns
            ]
            button "Halt" [
                halt
            ]
            button "Quit" [
                quit
            ]
]
]
do-events

Well - there is btn-sqlite (better than nothing) driver on rebol.org 
It works, with one bad effect - black console window appearing during 
the shell call. Just recently I put it on high priority list for 
W.7.6 to be fixed - all is needed is to set one flag for shell call 
....

What's the size of each row? Given the size/price of memory, REBOL 
may be fast enough by itself. If you use sort, parse and create a 
little list comprehension dialect...

The main thing I would be worried about with a sandbox for anonymous 
scripts would be its potential for involving the user unwittingly 
in illegal or immoral activities that they may not approve of. I 
would rather not list such activities in a web-public group, but 
I can think of dozens of nasty possibilities right off the top of 
my head, and that's just from looing back at activities commonly 
performed by banner ads on many sites.

Davide: Interesting idea. Didn't think of that direction. We'll add 
it to the proposed feature list....if others want this feature please 
chime in.

Note: You MUST remove previous versions of the plugin before installing 
the new plugin. Please follow the steps in the above install guide.


Also, FireFox/Mozilla users: You MUST add rebol.com to your list 
of approved software installation web sites. Again, please follow 
the steps in the above install guide.

James, please see the instructions in the install guide related to 
uninstallation of previous versions and adding rebol.com to your 
approved sites list.

Is the plugin served from an HTTPS site? It would be nice to avoid 
man-in-the-middle attacks. I'm always a little wary of putting non-SSL 
sites on the trusted sites list.


For that matter, when you have one site serving the html and script, 
and another serving the plugin, which site needs to be trusted, as 
far as the major browsers are concerned? I would think just the plugin 
serving site, but I don't quite remember right now...

My main desktop system is running Windows Server 2003 with the browser 
security settings enabled. It prohibits any ActiveX controls from 
running in IE at all unless they come from sites on the trusted list. 
It won't even give you the option unless you turn off the browser 
security.

How do you add rebol.com to your list of approved software installation 
web sites in Firefox?

BTW, Pekr -- if you or anyone else wants to re-write get-net-info, 
it is a REBOL function and you already haev the source. Feel free 
to code away :). If not, we'll put this on the task list, but no 
promises on when it will get done :)

Yes, good idea. We are going to look at officially registering with 
Mozilla.org, that will eliminate the need to modify Exceptions list 
in FireFox.

So, what is important now is to build a list of shortcomings (e.g. 
security comes to mind), and prioritize.

We need a short list of "items" that define "complete". Once we have 
that, we can work toward making that happen.

So, a short list of the outstanding critical problems .. see if they're 
fixable in your time frame , if so - commit to a final release?

It would be helpful if you (primary developers) could help us with 
that list.  So we are in agreement on  "complete".

Volker, you are talking about security. And that is the top item 
on "my list" regarding why it is not "complete".

Actually, I realize that there is no problem with get-net-info with 
manual-config proxy servers. So, scratch (1) off the list above. 
The question is very simple now: Do you want a solution along the 
lines of what I proposed in #2 above?

Have we got 1 Stability and 2 Security yet ? We have jumped to 3 
Proxy, even though everyone agreed to Josh's ordered list.

the layers will allow us to optimise what gets refreshed and allow 
us to stack some properties of all graphic elements on the same layer, 
even if the graphic elements themselves are rendered as a list (of 
overlapping things)

Curecode new release : 0.9.1 - http://softinnov.org:8000/curecode/

Changelog:

	o Localization framework (english and french catalogs provided).
	o ChangeLog page added.
	o Ticket history added.
	o Tickets list sorting added.
	o Numerous bugfixes (see CureCode project)
	
Needs Cheyenne 0.9.16 (to be released soon).

Package download URL : http://softinnov.org/dl/curecode-r091.zip

If you want to see the french translation of CureCode, just add french 
language in your browser language options (and ensure that it appears 
first in the list), or...just use a french browser version ;-). By 
default, the lang is controlled by the browser, but it can be overloaded 
by the application if required (next release will add a language 
option in user profile).

Anyway in CC, you can define your own list of priorities, statuses 
and severities if the default ones don't suit your needs.

I'll add that to the todo list for next release.

Changelog : 0.9.6 - 21/01/2009

	o FEAT: Ticket submitter can now delete his ticket.
	o FEAT: Admin can now delete any ticket.
	o FEAT: Admin can now delete a user.
	o FEAT: Admin can now change user's role.
	o FEAT: Admin can now force validation of a new user's account.
	
	o FIX:	Tickets list loading twice on first visit issue fixed.
	

 o LOOK: Input fields and buttons border width reduced to 1 pixel.

There's no UI for that list. I'll do it by hand right now and will 
note that feature in the todo list.

Getting the redirect loop on edit bug again. Clicking on a ticket 
from the View Tickets list takes me to:
- http://curecode.org/rebol3/edit-ticket.rsp?id=607&cursor=1
which takes me to

- http://curecode.org/rebol3/set-project.rsp?prj-id=2&ref=edit-ticket.rsp%3Fid%3D607%26cursor%3D1
and back again, endlessly.

I've removed it from "Add Ticket" list from the beginning because 
we already had Type->Wish for feature requests. For the severity 
field in the filters or in the ticket, I can remove it too, or we 
can keep it for marking tickets as "it's not a bug, it's a feature". 
As you like.

The stats needs to be fully refactored to better fit CC/R3 specific 
status list.

Once a ticket is dismissed, what is the proces for it getting to 
closed?
 I have been wondering that same thing (I'm the reviewer).

Carl and been in a hole generating R3 documentation so he hasn't 
been available to make policy decisions, but that would be the job 
of Carl and the reviewers (just me right now, want to volunteer?). 
However, I think "dismissed" should be removed from the stats and 
current list just like "closed", since it is useful to make the distinction 
between them for documentation purposes.

I think it would be better to exclude 

wishes" from the front-page stats too" Please don't. All requests 
for new functions or options are marked as wishes, so we need to 
keep track of those too if they aren't dismissed.

Good point, the "By submitter" filter is not fully implemented yet, 
so not really working. I've added that in my Todo list and will see 
next week if I can improve that quickly.

Currently the changelog for the new version is :

	o FEAT: "User" column added to tickets list page.
	o FEAT: Search text feature extended to comments.	
	o FIX:	"By Submitter" filter now working correctly.	
	o LOOK: Textarea edit fields enlarged to maximum width.

Cool. Does it have the value="" removed from the login page fields? 
That is the top of my want list :)

Clicking on Detail only shows the Detail filters, the list below 
still reflects the result of the Preset filter. You have to activate 
the Detail filter first by hit "Apply" button.

I could refresh the list below when you jump in Detail mode (and 
clear it when jumping in Search mode), but that means doing a quite 
big SQL query on all the tickets each time you switch from one mode 
to another...I tried to avoid that in exchange to a little less intuivite 
UI. Maybe there's some better solution.

An alternative would be to blank the list when switching mode. That 
perhaps will lead the user to see that an action needs to be done 
to display a list that corresponds with the search query.

Most of Preset filters are supposed to show you the ticket list in 
a particular order. Letting users change the order would make the 
resulting list inconsistent with the displayed filter.

What I find confusing is when you try to look at changelog. There 
is initially no list, unless you select your project first, which, 
in case of R3, is just only one - R3 ....

John and Brian, I didn't see your names on the list at http://rockfactory.us/events/devcon.html, 
so I took the liberty of adding you, along with others who've specifically 
stated they'd attend.  Aside from the mailing list, are there any 
other lists here on Altme or elsewhere that I should be checking?

The next step should probably be organizing presentation times and 
topics.  I've only seen the names posted on the mailing list (http://www.rebol.org/ml-display-thread.r?m=rmlCWZC).

Pekr,  I did post here and the mailing list.  The whole idea of the 
virtual DevCon evolved quickly and informally, so I apologise if 
it's been confusing.   Since the idea was suggested very near the 
proposed DevCon date, I tried to help organize things a bit at http://rockfactory.us/events/devcon.html
, but my efforts have been personal and not necessarily agreed upon 
by any of the community.   We probably should have appointed an official 
group of organizers and created a web site first, but in the interest 
of trying to things done, I just moved ahead and posted my suggestions 
here and on the mailing list - I hope there've been no disagreements 
or concerns about any of that.   DideC,  as it  stands, my intention 
is to make 100-150 connections available to http://rockfactory.us/rooms/room22
.  At this point, it seams reasonable to leave it open - if anyone 
thinks we should expect more than 100 people, then I'll need to know 
soon.   I'd appreciate a head count of people in the French community 
who plan to attend.  Amacleod, the broadcast system at http://rockfactory.us/rooms/room22
seems to be the best available solution.  I'm leaving that room available 
until the event, so that presenters can become familiar with it. 
 To make it easier for others to use the system, please remember 
to close the broadcast page when you're done using it, and please 
try to conserve bandwidth to only what's necessary to become familiar 
and comfortable with the system.  Please let me know if you have 
any questions!

I feel bad as there was a list setup asking when it should be.  However 
the only real date provided was the 27th.

The checklist was put up, with a request for people to add their 
preferred dates.

Not many of us did, and 27-dec was the favorite from a very short 
list.

I think now it'd be Nick's decision if he wanted to throw the date 
back into the open.

Any of us could of course start the hunt for an eDevCon date in 2009.

Good point......I think Nick is aware of that in this case....He's 
publicised those details here and on the Mailing List.

I am sure a securer sign-up will be needed once the room is in active 
use.

Hi Janko and RobertS :)  I added your names to the list of attendees. 
  The event will take place at 3pm EST December 27th, at http://rockfactory.us/rooms/room22
 .  As stated, user/pass is devcon/devcon  (those pages will all 
be deleted after the event, and I'll be monitoring to kick/ban unwanted 
visitors from any of the chat/audio/video communications as needed, 
so that first line of security is not a big concern - it's primarily 
just to deter random lookee-loos :)

I do need a final list, by Wednesday, of all presenters, along with 
an estimate of  the amount of time required for each presentation. 
 If any presenter has a particular requirement for when in the order 
their presentation needs to take place, please let me know.  This 
must to be finalized now so that I can reserve necessary bandwitdh 
for the event.  Thanks!

@NickA  - thanks for ading me to the list, I already reserver time 
on 27. :)

yeksoon, I added you to the list at http://rockfactory.us/events/devcon.html
.  The event will take place at 3pm EST, December 27th, at http://rockfactory.us/rooms/room22
 .   user/pass is devcon/devcon - just pop in, watch, and take part 
... see you then!

OK, I can chop up my art, and turn it into a syndicated Wiki, which 
we can then update quickly.  But I need content:


https://www.qtask.com/files.cgi/REBOLDevCon.png?tab=get&uuid=SUEG8343C26V82PWP5BLFKSMU4QT&filename=REBOLDevCon.png

t would be good to have:


- 3 items of news (Perhaps an update on R3, something about products 
that are being worked on, and something else)?

- A list of speakers (is it really just Chris and me, and perhaps 
a couple of the Qtask team?)
- List of when they want to talk
- Exact sign up instructions

I can put this all together easily enough.

May I suggest that the following be added to the home page of REBOLConf.info 
website:

- Much bigger date and time.
- Link to the video conference.
- List of known speakers.

There was no formal registration this year - just the discussion 
here and an informal list at http://rockfactory.us/events/devcon.cgi

Yeah, it would be cool to build the list on your page so that we 
refer or copy over old stuff.