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tomc is the mailing list man

maybe someone subscribed to the list is bouncing? although the error 
message refers to a mail loop.

Yes, Python has something like list of 10 - 15 bindings to various 
UIs. Ruby is close though. But for me Python is more readable. Of 
course I would prefer REBOL, but that's me, REBOL zealot.

I've started a Qwiki in Qtask for the 2008 user.r rebol of the year 
awards.  The rotties.

Single category so far;  roty. 
Nominations to date;

Ashley Trüter


I'll pull the list over every month or so.   Drop a note in user.r 
if you want to nominate someone; or better yet, drop me a note for 
an invite to the user.r project on Qtask and update the Qwiki directly.

REBOL would make good use of Pcode, since it would still be parsing 
at the same level.  Yeah, saving the "State" of a vector render would 
in theory be very fast then.

There are a lot of not so well thought out things about SVG (or I'm 
missing it in some way).  For example, you "animate" at the object 
level.

In my mind it should be:

- Make list of objects.
- Group some of them.
- Animate by reference.

But SVG seems to be simply:

- Make an object, embed animation.
- Next object.

Shall we list for Pekr the W3C standards that are widely ignored 
or misimplemented by everyone?

I thought I'd show what I'm working intensely with right now (needed 
a break anyway):

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/db-console.png


Sorry, it's in Danish. It's the adminstration console for my own 
database engine (very, very different from Pauls engine, so no competiton), 
all powered by VID, Rugby, LIST-VIEW and a home-made database engine 
as well as my own build system. The screenshot is from a production 
system (never mind the word "development" in the window title, we'll 
just ignore that... :-)). The system is 101.2% REBOL based. Nothing 
else but REBOL/View 2.7.6 is used.

The administration program is one of currently 4 programs made for 
the db engine, the other being a statistics program, the third a 
heavily dialected and customizable GUI frontend for the db and the 
fourth is a more rigid and flashy front end for easy readability 
(very much thanks to VID). What's visible in the console drop down 
sheet itself is the result of some db queries, here doing some searching, 
and altering of db records. You talk to the db with a simple dialect. 
I wouldn't call it very fast or anything, but it definitely gets 
the job done and even complicated queries are usually 1-2 lines. 
For what you see in that picture, there is around 200 kb of code. 
Well, that's just what I wanted to say. :-)

Sorry about that, I missed you in the initial list.

How do I remove myself from a private group such as "Evolution vs 
Creation"? It comes back with "You must include yourself in this 
group" when I click "Save" (after clicking my name to move it from 
the right-hand list to the left).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apocalyptic_and_post-apocalyptic_fiction

we just need a list of separators when a wrong loadable value is 
encountered to continue the loading

We have a list of separators: Whitespace. Anything else requires 
special handling that will need to be specified. The only problem 
with Doc's comment is not getting that part of the LOAD/else proposal.

Continuing a thread about Skimp and the Mailing List archive from 
the REBOLweek group...

We have 40K messages, but we index threads.....So only 9500 or so 
:-)

There is a skimp index per year. Each index has 27 files (header 
+ A, B,C etc). 
That's 400-odd files. Total 4.5 meg.

Not kept in memory....We're runnings a CGI application, so loaded 
afresh each time. (The opsys may be cacheing for us).

Skimp already, in effect has a plugin: make-word-list. That defines 
what a "word" is.


One way to implement stemming would be to make stemming a plugin 
to make-word-list. But I have not really thought about that yet:

http://www.rebol.org/documentation.r?script=make-word-list.r

It looks like everyone was just opted out of !Compression, Politics, 
and a couple others.  I just tested by opting myself out of !Cheyenne, 
and it also disappeared from my list after I logged back in twice. 
 (First time, it was greyed out, then second time it vanished)

Or someone sensible can just look at the list of people in the group, 
and realize that it was made private by mistake. Fixed.

But they don't use the mailing list or the official documentation 
either. Most of their problems are well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages

Wow that list is long :) Brainfuck.. I tried that once. I don't remember 
it fondly.. XD

In Hackety Hack (an app that teaches Ruby programming to kids) one 
of the first examples was how to use Ruby to mash up YouTube with 
the iTunes Top 10 music titles. You ended up getting a list of music 
videos for those top ten songs. It was just 5 lines or so and was 
pretty cool. I wrote an article a year ago teaching Shoes (a Ruby 
GUI toolkit) that mashed up YouTube with Twitter to show you videos 
of the current buzz on the net. Something like that is pretty easy, 
takes just a few lines, but the results are actually usable and fun.

but there must be some other or deeper connection, as it does not 
recognize the user list from that folder. but it also doesn't create 
a new one.

I'm guessing that it tries to get the "Rebol4" name somehow to read 
the user list, but does not get anything and then quietly ignores 
it.

What does your user list show?

what i really want, is the abilty to list the available refinements 
of a datatype.

text-list does not have double/alt click support.

Probably yes, but the list of things you're missing is long, as we 
all know ;o)))

For all you guys maintaining tutorials etc. Here is a couple of polished 
demos, a simpler one and a more advanced one, a couple of snapshots 
on the way to implementing your own list with drag-n-drop:

probe first system/view 
probe get in system/view/event-port 'awake 
make system/view [source wake-event] 
system/view/wake-event: func [port /local event no-btn] bind [
    event: pick port 1 
print remold [event/type event/offset event/key] 
    if none? event [

        if debug [print "Event port awoke, but no event was present."] 
        return false
    ] 
    either pop-face [

        if in pop-face/feel 'pop-detect [event: pop-face/feel/pop-detect 
        pop 
            -face event
        ] 
        do event 
        found? all [
            pop-face <> pick pop-list length? pop-list 
            (pop-face: pick pop-list length? pop-list true)
        ]
    ] [
        do event 
        empty? screen-face/pane
    ]
] system/view 
echo on 
print "con" 
view layout [button "test" [probe "test"]]

system/view/wake-event: func [port /local event no-btn] bind [
    event: pick port 1
print[type? event]
if event! = type? event[ 
print remold [event/type event/offset event/key] 
]
    if none? event [

        if debug [print "Event port awoke, but no event was present."] 
        return false
    ] 
    either pop-face [

        if in pop-face/feel 'pop-detect [event: pop-face/feel/pop-detect 
        pop 
            -face event
        ] 
        do event 
        found? all [
            pop-face <> pick pop-list length? pop-list 
            (pop-face: pick pop-list length? pop-list true)
        ]
    ] [
        do event 
        empty? screen-face/pane
    ]
] system/view 
echo on 
print "con" 
view/new layout [button "test" [probe "test"]]

claiming to be closed. seems to happen sometimes even is the port 
is not in the wait-list.

do you have any ports in the wait-list, with an awake function that 
is not returning false? note that if you return none it does not 
work, only with false wait will continue waiting.

Can I probe the wait-list?

....
    data: 0
    row: 0
    source function! ;<--- defined
  ]
  list-view: BOX with [
    source function! ; <--- undefined
    hdr: hdr-btn: hdr-fill-btn: hdr-corner-btn:
    lst: lst-fld: scr: edt: pup: pdn: none
....

l: layout [field text "toto" text-list  box with [source function!]]]
; works too

>> do %/c/rebol/list-view.r
Script: "VID LIST-VIEW Face" (19-May-2006)
function!: function!
function!: undefined
** Script Error: function! has no value
** Where: stylize

** Near: color: make function! [] [select colors either fill ['even] 
['background]]
>> source function!
function!: function!
>>

are there good articles on memory conservation anywhere? I noticed 
that some times memory usage for LIST-VIEW skyrockets, especially 
when using TO-IMAGE on list columns to generate bitmaps. that is 
not good.

how do you bind layout words to an object easily? I want to set faces 
to variables which are supposed to be local to the context of my 
Tester program. I realize this is really the old "dynamic variable 
list in an object problem" all over again (I run into this very often 
it seems), but was wondering if LAYOUT specifically allowed some 
tricks...

well the thing is how variables are initialized when doing an object. 
I've discussed this before, but it would be nice to keep the list 
shown at the top of that example in the docs as a dynamic list. this 
prevents me from having to maintain that list and the layout words 
when doing changes. I guess I need to approach how to make the object 
block differently.

In my scroll-table style, what I do when resizing is this:

 vscroll/ratio: rows / (1 + length? list-data) ; visible rows over 
 total
	vscroll/resize vscroll/size: (calculate new size here)
	; step = 1 / (total rows - visible rows)
	use [y][
		y: max 0 ((length? list-data) - rows)

  vscroll/step: either 0 = y [1][1 / y] ; prevent division by zero
	]

Don't be worried that the unit of my data is rows of text and not 
pixels, it should be the same calculation.
Just change: 
	total rows  (length? list-data)  -->  total height in pixels 
	visible rows  (rows)  --> visible height in pixels

I've studied the problem now, and it's the same algorithm as I use 
in LIST-VIEW, but it's defective and causes the scroller only to 
move 1-2 pixels at a time, when the list is only slightly larger 
than the visible area. I found a different solution which was not 
to trust the step at all and use LIST-VIEW's own function to move 
the list and scroller separately, i.e. the list position is not derived 
from the scroller anymore.

Um... if you remove event-port from the wait-list.

remove find system/ports/wait-list system/view/event-port

insert system/ports/wait-list system/view/event-port

So:

      remove find system/ports/wait-list system/view/event-port
      until [none? pick system/view/event-port 1]
      insert system/ports/wait-list system/view/event-port
      inform my-crash-requester

Yep, next stage would be to -- a) save your name and dot, b) show 
a list of names, c) highlight the dot of the selected name, and d) 
show their local time.

Pekr, build me a clear list of your questions, and I will ask them 
all here.

yes Reichart - I simply wanted to hear something concrete, but OK, 
here comes the list, out of my head:


1) Will rich text and rebcode became part of all rebol distributions 
from now on?

2) we heard answer for async kernel in regards to LNS - some time 
ago Carl mentioned proper tasking or even timers could be added - 
is that anyhow realistic?

3) I realised VitalNeeds removed all Rebol related info from their 
website - is the partnership lost?
4) what will be the next focus of RT?

5) there was some talk about "rebuilding the team" - will RT employ/contract 
more developers?

6) some time ago Carl talked about opening some of rebol code - parts 
of View, console etc - will that happen? Part of that plan was "Rebol 
as a library" IIRC - is that concept still valid? What happened to 
/Platform vision? I was not present last year at Devcon, but my understanding 
was, that /Platform is about modularisation, language plug-ins were 
planned too ...

7) not to mention BCD, rebin, RIF, of which only RIF was mentioned.

8) RAMBO is cool - but what about shared roadmap? I was contacted 
privately by one former Rebol developer, who felt Rebol plays on 
elite and that not knowing what is the plan for what product is really 
badly frustrating. Will RT create more SIGs, to fasten developments 
in certain areas? I talk about kernel areas, which general rebol 
user can not affect and waiting for enhancements can take years. 
Some ppl are already crying for better sound (if we want to use rebol 
for video-over-web for eg.)

9) We heard about spreading rebol x-times. What is RT's vision of 
how to achieve this? Such claims should be supported by some more 
concrete plan? Is still outer world (development companies) interested 
in Rebol, so maybe more of VitalNeeds partnerships could come?
10) What is Carl's preferred drink? :-)


Thank you very much, sorry if some questions sound strange, they 
were put on "paper" as fast as I could type on my notebook. Enjoy 
the community in Treviglio, guys!

Gab has skype running as per his mailing list msg.

async is done using call backs as in atcp.  So, if I request a list 
of patient results, my call back function receives the data, and 
redisplays the pertinent list.

Reichart, just sent a message via QTask..that they are having difficulties 
accessing AltMe,


I have copied Pekr's list of questions to QTask so that he can follow 
up on it.

Graham - btw - dunno if RebGUI problem or just incorrect definition 
in your code, but try to maximize your window - you will see the 
list of patients (left-bottom corner) resizes incorrectly.

Q: Yeksoon asks "Reichart, there is a whole bunch of pple under Rebol 
SIG in QTask, .... are a lot of them working on QTask etc?"

A: Yes.



These are answers from Carl, Gab, Richard, etc. from the last day 
of the conference.  I sat them all down, with many others from the 
conference, and we reviewed and tried to lock down answers.



1) Will rich text and rebcode became part of all rebol distributions 
from now on?


A: Carl said "Once Rich Text and Recode are added (which was agreed 
on to be by Nov 14) ….yes."


2) we heard answer for async kernel in regards to LNS - some time 
ago Carl mentioned proper tasking or even timers could be added - 
is that anyhow realistic?
A: 


Carl said "Tasking is special, and is pushed off to Rebol version 
3."

No date has been set, but it will not be now


Carl said "Timers could be done now, and this could be done in a 
few months."


Carl wants more feedback that people "need" them.  So give him feedback. 
 This also goes to say we need a common place where we all (in the 
Rebol community) can create a complete list of what is wanted, and 
then "vote up" the things we want done first.  So RAMBO for now, 
perhaps Qtask soon, since it will have Voting.


3) I realized VitalNeeds removed all Rebol related info from their 
website - is the partnership lost?

A: Carl said "No, but they are talking…"

4) what will be the next focus of RT?

A: Carl said "Altissimo"


5) there was some talk about "rebuilding the team" - will RT employ/contract 
more developers?


A: Carl said "Yes, and we are doing , send in your Resume and show 
us your cool app you wrote that is as good as Canvas!"


6) some time ago Carl talked about opening some of rebol code - parts 
of View, console etc - will that happen? 


A: Carl said "Yes, this is happening and is happening in pieces. 
 The console is a good example.  Nothing would make us happier than 
having people make it better, and not have Rebol be the bottleneck."



6.2) Part of that plan was "Rebol as a library" IIRC - is that concept 
still valid? 


A: Carl said" It exists today!  Look in Windows directory for the 
DLL.  You can call it. More is being worked on. Talk to Jaime."


6. 3) What happened to /Platform vision? I was not present last year 
at Devcon, but my understanding was, that /Platform is about modularisation, 
language plug-ins were planned too ...


A: Carl said "Platform is being sold to Safeworlds…"  I will comment 
on this later.


7) not to mention BCD, rebin, RIF, of which only RIF was mentioned.


A: Carl said "We found another aprouch to BCD, so it was good we 
waited, Ladislav will be making this happen."



8) RAMBO is cool - but what about shared roadmap? I was contacted 
privately by one former Rebol developer, who felt Rebol plays on 
elite and that not knowing what is the plan for what product is really 
badly frustrating. Will RT create more SIGs, to fasten developments 
in certain areas? I talk about kernel areas, which general rebol 
user can not affect and waiting for enhancements can take years. 
Some ppl are already crying for better sound (if we want to use rebol 
for video-over-web for eg.)


A: Carl said using Sound as example "Sound: a good example of code 
Rebol plans to make open.  AGG for sound, would be perfect for Rebol. 
 I am more than happy to publish this info."

 


9) We heard about spreading rebol x-times. What is RT's vision of 
how to achieve this? Such claims should be supported by some more 
concrete plan? Is still outer world (development companies) interested 
in Rebol, so maybe more of VitalNeeds partnerships could come?


A: Carl said "This is complicated question…and answer.  My belief 
of the world is that application have to be simple to use, and to 
make.  That is what changes the future of computing.  So I see a 
world with thousands of developers, making all sorts of applications, 
with that it will grow faster than anything else that has been done."
 
10) What is Carl's preferred drink? :-)


A: Carl says "Non Alcoholic.  POG.   Otherwise…Vodka Martini, with 
Green Olive…very dry…(stuffed)"

From Yeksoon:


1. RT official statement on current products line like View, IOS 
etc?

Is it going to be replace by other range of products...support etc? 
How does moving 'beyond' View, IOS affect the current product offerings 
and hence the way alliance partners operates.


A: Carl says "Yes, we are going to move beyond, the new features 
WILL make this more usable and faster, and more open than in the 
past."



1.2: For partners like myself, who are on the alliance program, we 
would appreciate if RT works closer with us on their commercial offerings, 
roadmaps etc. We need such info to make decisions ...


A: Carl says "what we will be doing for Alliance, is help them move 
foreword on the new tech that is introduced, and with the minimum 
amount of effort."


2. How does the above decisions from RT leads to X% growth next year? 
Are there any change in the way business is done?


A: Carl says "Yes, it is going to change a lot, and this will happen 
over the next year.  This should bring you much better range of features, 
and enhanced as necessary by your teams."

I wonder if the "warm welcome" we gave Vital Needs on the ML has 
anything to do with their decision.  IMHO many of you were very rude 
to Heather when she posted to the list.

but, you can't get very much out of the web anyway. qtask has a long 
list of prople with the photos and so on...

I have the list of nations given to the newspaper reporters (extracted 
by Gabriele from the registration database): Italy, USA, Czeck Republic, 
Belgium, Germany, Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Argentina, 
Austria, Denmark, Spain, Hungary. Jaime was born in Colombia so maybe 
this is the 15th nation

about "I don't want to write it myself" - we're lucky that some of 
us don't think like that (i.e. nenad's mysql:// and so on...) :-) 
but anyway, if you need it, and are even ready to pay for it, i'm 
quite sure that you'll be able to find a rebol developer willing 
to do it for you... I can't speak for RT so I can't tell you if we 
are gonna do it or not; i think REBOL's SSL implementation needs 
this functionality, but there are so many things in the todo list...

Here is a (hopefully complete) list of links to all the speakers 
and video presentations:

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/carl.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/gregg.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/gabriele.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/cyphre.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/maarten.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/jaime.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/reichart.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/ashley.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/john.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/ladislav.html
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/robert.html

Torrents


http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/Visitto Rome and Milan.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/Discussionsand Banquet.mp4.torrent


http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/CarlSassenrath.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GreggIrwin - Logo.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GreggIrwin - Dialects.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GabrieleSantilli.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/RichardSmolak.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/MaartenKoopmans.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/JaimeVargas.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/BaronR.K. von Wolfshield.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/AshleyTruter.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/JohnNiclasen.mp4.torrent

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/RobertMuench.mp4.torrent

HTTP links


http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/CarlSassenrath.mp4

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GreggIrwin - Logo.mp4

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GreggIrwin - Dialects.mp4

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/GabrieleSantilli.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/RichardSmolak.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/cyphre-slides.zip

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/MaartenKoopmans.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/JaimeVargas.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/beer-slides.pdf

http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/BaronR.K. von Wolfshield.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/AshleyTruter.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/JohnNiclasen.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/john-slides.zip
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/videos/RobertMuench.mp4
http://www.colellachiara.com/devcon05/Robert.pdf

just one quick glance at the list of functions for arrays, and I 
just want to run screaming back to REBOL :-)

Fresco uses Corba, and there isn't a ReBOL implementation ... well, 
there wasn't when someone last asked on the list in 1999.

Gabriele: . I post a 6 posted a 6 point list of things the discussion 
has brought about.  do what you want with it  :-)

for now it seems that VID is just a bucket to randomly throw widgets 
in at your own whim. this should of course not go away, but higher 
level structures would be nice to have. there could be Dialog, Two-pane, 
Three-pane, Preferences (which provides a list in the left side and 
switchable pane in the right side).

Henrik - who not let it just be a style? Just like tab-view is container 
for other stuff? You could start the hierarchy with - view layout 
[app-window split-window 3 [list-box .......]]

btw, no more names, one day is over. the list has been sent to Carl.

Too funny Max. Gabriele must be lacking sleep, he's normally not 
so irreverent.  :-) Aw, shoot, now I'm probably on the bad list.

Well, I did not expected to be on early release list, not even on 
July 1st one. But - is this good enough to become a good guy? :-) 
http://www.abitnice.com/archives/Shrek.jpg

I don't mind ending up on the bad list ---

I got a list of names here, but oh.. they are all so blurry. I can't 
see them.

SUM is a standard term, and a common aggregate func. It could be 
a shortcut for "add number block". Generally, I like the idea of 
"overloading" funcs to make them smarter, e.g. a dialected version 
of EXTRACT is high on my list, but it's a fine line, and each choice 
has to be made carefully.

what do you FEEL about porting list-view ?

Graham, I don't think I FEEL quite up to it yet. :-) I don't even 
know yet how to code with GOBs properly, as they are a bit harder 
to manage than faces. There will hopefully be a solution to that.


There is a much better text list already in VID3 than in the old 
VID. It even has columns. :-)

A list of all the functions is found here: http://pyopengl.sourceforge.net/documentation/manual/index.xml
Scroll down to see the GLUT functions.

ah, I can see it too now ... in user list, he is still listed as 
Reichart, his messages are listed under "none" name.

No, there are some things still missing. I'm not even sure that a 
port can be warranted as the system is very different, so it would 
take shorter time to rewrite it. I have long wanted to rewrite it 
to separate list operations from the display more.

it would be said that everyone is filled with enthusiasm for this 
history of cursor icon.
One will strike me if I say that it is the last of my concern? 

i could make a wish list with 1000 request for R3, and changing cursor 
icon would not be inside

Brian - I exactly understand what you mean. The bad thing is, that 
when you feel you have something to say to the design itself, you 
can't, or you don't want to, to not spoil the chefs. But - I will 
write docs only to desing I have 100% trust into. So far I have some 
worries. Those are more philosophical ones. E.g. worst part I read 
so far was 'tight command, which imo has bad influence on how VID 
code "feels". So - at first run, I will try to read most past discussions 
and try to understand new design philosophy. There surely are differences 
to VID2, mostly that styles seem to be organised in groups (columns). 
I can't e.g. see VID2 keywords like 'at, 'across, 'below, 'return, 
etc. - so, how I said - I first need to study the design. Then I 
will have some questions. 


I will ask those questions to Gabriele privately, to not flood the 
group, and because he is master designer. I think that guys managed 
to create strange atmosphere here. Since when is the design a closed 
effort to those who are interested in the design process? I don't 
remember it happening even with View 1.0 - ally mailing list. Everybody 
interested could reply at least on mailing list - no wait and see 
mode. That is exactly why I asked for the design docs first, althought 
I understand Gabriele's point of rather coding first. But the aproach 
of "watch, but don't spoil" excludes others from the design.


So once again - if I find new design unpleasant to use, difficult 
to use and explain in the docs, I may also departure from the effort.

Let's say I am very average rebol coder, and that I also had one 
person, which I taught REBOL, VID specifically. I saw various VID 
code in the past, some was pretty and self explanatory, some was 
more messy. I e.g. liked simplicity in most of IOS reblets. The ugliest 
design in VID2 is a list for me. Thru all those years, I catched 
several ppl, to not really get it. It is kind of "usage pattern", 
and if it repeats, then we should think, if the aproach is best for 
the user. E.g. list style assumed cnt word in its block, and it was 
really confusing.

Just curious if anyone has any info on tables in vid3. They were 
pretty poor in R2 but I think they are a key element for many apps. 
I took a quick look at "turbogrid" mentioned in the Tech News forum 
and its crap. it's Ajax based.  A list-view based app in a plug in 
would blow it away.

there is a simple text list for emergency testing right now, but 
a new one will be written. I hope it will feature many of the features 
from LIST-VIEW, without taking up too much code. LIST-VIEW for R2 
is almost as big as the entire of VID3.

My take on graphical tables;  R2 had a beautiful base for this with 
list and supply.  Downside was that the documentation was so limited 
and late comming that no one could comes to grips and we all mostly 
ignored it.  We lost out on the ability to build on the shoulders 
of giants as using list and supply pretty much meant learning by 
expermentation, coding from first principles and not from tool kits 
and cookbooks.  Hopefully the power gems of R3 and VID3 will not 
suffer the same fate.

Right. And GNU/Linux doesn't even belong in that list. RT does not 
exist in a vacuum, and Carl is not an island. His funding is coming 
from somewhere, and he has a responsibility over it, and a dependency

note about asking me to join: it's not my decision who joins and 
who does not. so you are free to ask but i need to get the ok to 
add more people. as i said, i was for just releasing to the people 
here no matter what the status. you can either fix the feature list, 
or fix the date, you can't fix both. my assumption was that for r3, 
we had fixed the date, and not the feature list (except for a couple 
things we were ok to move the date for). don't blame me if it wasn't 
released in august.

I, for one, am not suggesting to delay VID, I (and others) just want 
to know what is possible with the new iteration of the core language 
(and no, I don't mean the bullet-point feature list).  If there's 
bugs or no VID at this point, so be it  -- the perfectionism seems 
to be alienating the 'have-nots' here.

Perhaps we need a list of deal breakers like this?

Henrik: Is your VID-LIST  going to be built into VID3?

daveC, no, it's too complex and not very well written, but Gabriele 
and I will take the features one by one and reimplement the most 
important ones. LIST-VIEW takes up almost as much source code as 
the entire of VID3.

LIST-VIEW doesn't follow the 80% rule.

but won't v3 be so efficient that you can rewrist list-view in one 
page of code??

it will be essential, so yes, it will be made. there is a simple 
text list now that has multiple resizable columns, very small (and 
ugly in appearance) and fairly fast.

LIST-VIEW is also very monolithic. the filtering and search functions 
don't really belong there. we need to separate that to make it more 
flexible for cases where you only need filtering or searching but 
not display.

and then R3 LIST-VIEW would just display whatever is fed to it. that's 
a smarter way to do it.

I imagine we'd use a sort index like now and just point to the different 
lines in the data block as the list view is rendered.

But I refuse to obtain long data list from SQL query and to reorder 
it just to get it displayed.

there should be two styles anyway - text-list, and grid ....

There was a grid cotrol for VB, TrueGrid from Apex Software; it had 
a callback mode, where it requested data dynamically (like LIST) 
and fired update events if the user edited something. The only data 
it need to duplicate, IIRC, was for the set of displayed rows.

Petr; A lot of this comes down to what is going to cost the REBOL 
evaluator.  I don't know, but have a feeling that a lot of intermediate 
results are discarded.  Could be wrong.  But if so, I wouldn't push 
for anything that will slow down current execution speed.  If the 
values are there on a stack today, great.  But II'd guess that only 
the last may easily (and zero cost to current run-time) accessible. 
 And with some fancy expressions, what goes on the stack in what 
order may be optimized differently than reading code left to right. 
 I'll ask while pointing out the interest that has been shown here 
by the group.  If coders want a pickable list of expressions today 
we have reduce and friends.  I'm more aiming to get at the last result 
from the console as I'm always forgetting to put a var: in front 
of test code, especially code tthat returns an object! that I'd like 
to probe.

Henrik, I spy a little list-view there!  : ) Very nice.

james_nak: LIST-VIEW is in fact not used in dev-base. I wish it were, 
though. :-)

Does that mean I won't be able to build the equivalent of an R2 hash! 
with map! in R3?


I use a hash! to build a unique list of words as it was far quicker 
than any other method I could come up with.

As I have written to the mailing list: dear collegues, use R2 and 
do not wait for R3. It will be a gift of God when it will come. If 
we put R3 developers under pressure there is the probability that 
wrong choices will be made.