AltME groups: search

The chances are good, because it is still simple and is fairly easy 
to compile on Windows, Linux and Syllable

I use this to build Orca on both Syllable and Linux. If your friend 
has Ruby on Ultrix, he might even try to run Builder and let it compile 
Orca. Builder hasn't been tested yet beyond Syllable and Linux, but 
it is very portable

on linux i build it with this: http://polly.rebol.it/test/test/orca/build.r

There's a patch for the generated M2 template in that Builder definition, 
but it's only needed for Syllable. It works with Linux, but isn't 
needed there

Yes, on Linux. Hm, maybe on Windows as well

Orca is on the DVD of the current issue 82 of Linux Format magazine 
- more or less. A binary copy is included in the Syllable 0.6.1 that's 
on it

Since there are currently no binary releases for Orca, compiling 
it is somewhat difficult, and I do it regularly anyway for Syllable 
and Linux, I decided to provide one. Orca is included in Syllable, 
and a binary package for Linux is now here:

This package was compiled on Ubuntu Dapper Drake, but it should probably 
work on all modern Linux distributions

Well, not my package, unless you install a Linux emulator

Mmm, it's available for Win32, MacOSX and Debian Linux, OpenBSD on 
the way.

But back to the question: Is Win32, MacOSX and Debian Linux enough 
for now ? Are all current orca developers covered by those supported 
platforms ?

I'm not sure that debian linux is enough, even if it's a big part 
of them

Pekr, AltME doesn't cover all linux platforms yet, so that would 
limit the audience a little bit.

On the interest in Orca. As I mentioned before, Orca is included 
in Syllable 0.6.1. In that form, many thousands of copies have been 
distributed already all over the world. We're currently up to about 
4500 downloads of the install CD, so those would presumably be people 
really running the system, 2300 live CDs and an unknown number of 
VMware images, which have been very popular in the past. It's also 
in the shops on the DVD version of Linux Format magazine. I don't 
know how big the DVD part of its circulation is, but it must be many 
thousands

There's a binary for Linux, and this new version is also included 
in Syllable, starting with Syllable Server 0.2 that I just released

kaj, the main reason for the close source is to prevent as much of 
linux-like split as possible to the *Language*.

the platform is a totally independent aspect of REBOL.

Also, people installing View on Linux to try Red might encounter 
issues related to View installation.

Sounds very Linux: you need DHCP and X, and you have one distro that 
does DHCP, and another that does X :-/

I once decided to spend the time I needed to waste configuring Windows 
and Linux to make my own operating systems :-)

that just hardcoded freebsd-specifics, so would have broke linux 
in that form. only a quick experiment to see what's really necessary

Works fine on Windows, so it looks like a Linux-specific issue...

Andreas' fixes to callbacks on Linux work now. I've enabled them 
in the 0MQ binding and with that, the binding is now pretty much 
production ready

A callback used internally by cURL is fine, yes, on Linux. We'll 
see what a progress callback does with trying to print floats

Two days seems like a long time ago. :-) If that was the final fix 
for 0MQ on Linux, then I already had it

New editor in REBOL for Red/System : edit | compile | run for Windows, 
Linux, MacOSX !
http://www.red-chronicle.com/2011/07/new-red-editor-in-rebol.html

Well, if someone could bring color (using ANSI codes?) to the Mac 
and Linux version, that would be nice! :-)

Ok, I have added the red color to Mac and Linux platforms...updating 
the screenshots now ;-)

I don't have Linux nor Mac at this moment... are you using just string 
like "^[[31mRED^[[0m" ?

So it works out of the box on Linux but not on Syllable OS?

OK, thanks. It will also be needed on other systems, though, in forms 
specific to their C library. I've already included the deviations 
for Linux

I'm happy to report that raw SDL performance is almost twice as fast 
on Syllable as on Linux: a rendering that takes five seconds on Linux 
with X11 takes three on Syllable

Also, dragging the window during the rendering doesn't visibly slow 
down the rendering on Syllable, while it clearly stutters on Linux

The DLL is compiled for Windows, but maybe jocko could build it for 
Linux or Syllable too.

Cross-posting jocko's reply from RebelBB french forum: 

There are two steps in this DLL: 


- first send a request to the Google api, for instance : http://translate.google.com/translate_tts?tl=en&q=hello+world
Google returns an audio file : translate_tts.mp3


- second, automatically open this file and play it. I use a DirectXShow 
filter (windows only), directly able to render the url. In the case 
of Linux, cUrl could do the first step, and, for instance VLC the 
second

Simple scripts are compiling OK for Linux too.

Testing from Linux, the tests are not passing.

I do a quick test on Linux, just in case...

Doc, the 0MQ binding still works, so you can use the request/reply 
example, on Linux or Windows

SDL can be demoed on Linux. I haven't tested on Windows yet, although 
it should at least almost work

I tried Linux loop mounting and 7-Zip, but my versions don't seem 
to support DMG. It's just much easier if someone with a Mac has a 
quick look

It should run on Linux and Windows

That looks like the error I'm getting on Linux on an older GTK version

I was suspecting something like that. I hope it also helps the Linux 
and SDL cases

I never liked either GTK or Qt. The reason I'm binding one anyway 
is that we want native platform user interfaces for Red. Linux and 
BSD don't have a native interface, but if you have to appoint one, 
you have to appoint two: GTK and Qt

So I chose GTK to support as the "native" GUI for Linux and BSD. 
It can also run on several other platforms until we have native support 
for those

According to Twitter message, Doc got simple program compiling and 
running on Linux ARM. Nice and congrats :-)

Linux Mint 10, "Julia"

Are "native" Android GUI apps posible? I mean - e.g. GTK based ones. 
Or if View would be ported - it uses own methods to draw stuff, no? 
Although windowing is native, so probably some link to JAVA still 
required. Pity MeeGo did not become popular instead (pure Linux based 
IIRC)

Well, Android x86 is basically Linux x86, so you should be able to 
already run Red/System binaries on it.

Integrating with the Android non-application model is the most interesting 
point of running Android on that machine. If I wanted to run Linux 
binaries on it, I could keep Ubuntu on it.

Having fully access to the whole Android framework from Red is the 
goal. Running Linux binaries is the just the first experimental step.

I will see if I can setup QEMU to emulate an ARM and install a suitable 
Linux image over it.

Thanks for fixing that bug in the Windows version, Doc. I'm developing 
on Linux, so I seldomly test such things

(inside a terminal. for those not so familiar with linux: the first 
two lines are the call of the binary and the resulting output. the 
rest is just platform porn.)

Cool. Is that an unmodified Linux target?

I mean, would it run on other Linux ARM machines?

That's Red/System's vanilla Linux-ARM target, for which we now have 
basic library imports working.

I can confirm that including multiple times works now on Linux

The presentation of the map bindings at GeoFreedomDay went well - 
that is, after I could coerce my Linux to display on the beamer

Hi, I am interested into building an maintaining documentation for 
those programming languages based on REBOL.
It would be nice to have a DOCBASE for them.
What I search is:
- Someone ABLE to SETUP the Linux and the Wiki Software
- Someone which would share with me the cost of hosting.
Do you like the idea ?
Write me at [giuseppe-:-chillemi-:-eu]

All my test scripts are now working correctly on Linux/ARM, including 
Red's memory allocator.

New compilation targets have been provided for Linux and derivated 
OS running on ARM:

change to 


New compilation targets have been provided for Linux and derivative 
OSs running on ARM:

However, x86 GNU/Linux does have atexit. Also, the cURL binding imports 
atexit through the C library binding, so if cURL programs load but 
GTK programs don't, that's sinister

Arduino with AVR 32-bit MCU can, there are Linux versions running 
on it.

I don't see the necessity for an external lib for concurrency or 
events management, when the OS are already providing everything we 
need (I guess that pthread lib is standard part of Linux now?).

PThreads are the native Linux threads implementation for a number 
of years

It works on Linux and should also work on Windows

Floats work better on Linux now. Before, it crashed when combined 
with other code

On Linux.

Dockimbel: I don't really know about SWT itself, but Eclipse on Linux 
is always shipped with SWT over GTK+.

Kaj: I gave a new try on making the GTK+ binding work on Linux/ARM, 
I was able to track the crash up to the call to `gtk-append-container` 
from `gtk-window` function. The argument values passed are:

    window: 0006C000 value: 12

which results in a Runtime Error 1: access violation (segfault)

Kaj: I gave a new try on making the GTK+ binding work on Linux/ARM, 
I was able to track the crash up to the call to `gtk-append-container` 
from `gtk-window` function. The argument values passed are:

    window: 0006C000 value: 12

which results in a Runtime Error 1: access violation (segfault)

Kaj: I did a few tests for the 0.2.4 candidate with some of your 
bindings on Windows and Linux. No issue so far. Could you please 
check if all your bindings latest versions are working fine before 
I make the release?

Kaj: I did a few tests for the 0.2.4 candidate with some of your 
bindings on Windows and Linux. No issue so far. Could you please 
check if all your bindings latest versions are working fine before 
I make the release?

Webkit: can't run it on Windows, I was able to get a suitable libwebkit 
but it fails to find some functions in the dependent DLL. Trying 
on Linux.

Webkit crash: reproduced on Linux.

What Linux distro? I ask because the WebKit in the newest Linux Mint 
is incompatible

Mine is on Linux

; CLOCKS_PER_SEC value for Syllable, Linux (XSI-conformant systems)
; TODO: check for other systems
#define clocks-per-second		1000'000

New branch started: `libc-init`


First commit contains proper init code for libc on Linux. It works 
ok, but additional testing needs to be done. Also support for other 
platforms needs to be added.

https://github.com/dockimbel/Red/tree/libc-init

I like the perl way to deal with bash expression on linux ...

He was asking about how to run Topaz outside of a browser. All of 
the suggestions I made above apply to Linux as well, except you have 
to install your own JS interpreter instead of using the one that 
comes preinstalled on Windows. So, it's a bit harder on your "real" 
operating system.

My guess would be that most Linux distros have about five JS interpreters 
preinstalled by now

Hi, I am interested into building an maintaining documentation for 
those programming languages based on REBOL.
It would be nice to have a DOCBASE for them.
What I search is:
- Someone ABLE to SETUP the Linux and the Wiki Software
- Someone which would share with me the cost of hosting.
Do you like the idea ?
Write me at [giuseppe-:-chillemi-:-eu]

Q: Will this language be an open or closed source project?


A: Long answer: The plan is to fully open source it at some point, 
when version 1 is ready. Host depending sources are open in the alpha 
release, and it may make sense to open source more and more along 
the way, like sources for the different datatypes. The IT world is 
constantly changing. My nephew just went to the Devoxx Java conference 
in Belgium. Everybody had portable Mac computers. That was very different 
just a few years ago. Who knows, what devices we'll use in 5 years? 
I like to bring my software with me to new platforms. To be able 
to support new platforms faster, open source is a good thing. But 
some things needs to be fulfilled, before I'll open source it all.

1. This isn't a hobby project. I've invested a lot of time and work 
in this project, and I need to find a way to get something back from 
all that. One option is to have a good manual ready for developers 
to buy, open source it to get a lot of developers interested, and 
make a profit that way. There may be other ways (like someone or 
some company paying me to open source or make projects in World).

2. I need to know more about the consequences of open sourcing it, 
so I can avoid any nasty surprises. Knowing more from other similar 
projects could help. I need to figure out a proper license.

3. Even if I keep the sources simple and clean, I would like to clean 
up even more, before it can be open sourced.

A: Short answer: Currently it's partly open source.

Q: What is the main target?

A: The World prompt is a very powerful tool. Being what is known 
as "network transparent" helps in the era of the Internet. Server 
scripting and client scripting are obvious uses. The ability to easily 
make dialects makes it possible to wrap the language around the problem 
instead of trying to change the problem to fit the language. Interfacing 
with other technologies ... see "Introduction" on http://world-lang.org
in a few days.

Q: Is it closer to R2, R3, RED, Topaz architecture?

A: World run its code within a custom made virtual machine (VM). 
Compiling in World compiles World sources to this VM. This happen 
when source code is run or if explicitly compiled. REBOL is always 
interpreted (AFAIK), so that's different. I'm far from an expert 
in Red and Topaz, but as I understand it, Topaz is compiled/translated 
to JavaScript. So the JavaScript engine can be seen as the VM in 
World. And Red is compiled to native code, so that's different too. 
As I see it, all these languages work differently and can complement 
each other. (Help me here, if I'm wrong in any of this.)

Q: What was the main motivation, aka - why yet another language?

A: After I've learned REBOL, I find it frustrating to program in 
most (all) other languages. The difference is like when humans moved 
from carving words in stones to using a printing press a la Gutenberg. 
Then I found, I couldn't complete projects like my Canvas RPaint 
program on all major platforms (Win32, OS X and Linux), I couldn't 
run my code on new portable devices, and I needed better performance 
with scientific applications. With my background in graphics, music 
and science, I expect the language to develop into those areas.


Q: If (you) don't have any other target, why don't you work on Red? 
Or fork a project from Red?

A: I started initial work on World in late March 2009. The first 
post in the Red group here in AltME is from 27-Feb-2011. At that 
time, World was more than 7'000 lines of C.

Q: Does World compile into bytecodes (a la java) or machine languages?

A: Into bytecodes for the virtual machine. Each VM instruction is 
32 bytes (256 bits) including data and register pointers.

Q: Can you do operators with more or less than 2 arguments?

A: Not yet. I've considered post-fix operators (1 argument), and 
it shouldn't be too hard to implement. To motivate me, I would like 
to figure out some really good examples. With more arguments, I can 
only think of the ternary operator ("THE ternary operator"). I'm 
not sure, World needs that.

Q: Is range! a series! type?

A: No, range! is a component datatype. It has two components just 
like pair!.

Q: What platforms are supported?

A: For now Mac OS X (64 bit), Linux (32 bit) and Windows (Win32). 
The code is very portable. It took me a few hours to port to Linux 
from OS X and just a few days to Windows.

Q: What platforms do you plan to support in the future?

A: It would be cool to see World on all thinkable platforms. I personally 
don't have time to support all. World is not a hobby project, and 
I'm open for business opportunities to support other platforms. The 
host depending code is open source. I mainly think 64-bit.


Q: I'm a little sorry to see the R2-style port model instead of the 
R3 style. Are all ports direct at least?

A: Yes, ports are direct (no buffering). The ports and networking 
are some of the most recent implemented. More work is needed in this 
area. I would like to keep it simple and fast, yet flexible so we're 
all happy.


Q: What in the world is going on with the World Programming Language? 
This looks like something that must have been under wraps for a long 
time. What's getting released?

A: I didn't speak up about this, until I was sure, there were no 
show-stoppers. The open alpha of World/Cortex is being released as 
executables for Mac OS X, Linux and Windows (Win32), as are the platform 
dependent sources and initial documentation. World implement 74 natives 
and more than 40 datatypes. The Cortex extension (cortex.w) implement 
100 or so mezzanine functions and some definitions. The REBOL extension 
(or REBOL dialect in rebol.w) implement close to 50 mezzanine functions 
(not all functionality) and some definitions.

Q: Did you do some speed benchmark? (R3 vs R2 vc World) ?
A: Yes:

(All tests under OS X using R2 v. 2.7.7.2.5 and R3 v. 2.100.111.2.5)

- A mandelbrot routine (heavy calculations using complex! arithmetic) 
is 6-7 times faster in World than code doing the same without complex! 
in R2 and 11-12 times faster than R3. If using same code, it's 2.5 
times faster in World than R2 and 4.2 times faster than R3.
- A simple WHILE loop like:
n: 1000000 while [0 < n: n - 1] []

is 1.8 times faster in World than in R2 and 2.8 times faster than 
in R3.

- I tested networking in two ways. One sending one byte back and 
forth between client and server task 100'000 times using PICK to 
get it, and another sending 1k bytes back and forth 10'000 times 
using COPY/PART to get it from the port. Both were around 3 times 
faster in World than in R2. (I didn't test this in R3.)

- I tested calling "clock" and "tanh" routines in the libc library. 
I called those routines 1'000'000 times in a loop and subtracted 
the time of the same loop without calling. Calling "clock" is 2.4 
times faster in World than in R2. Calling "tanh" (with argument 1.0) 
is 5.9 times faster in World than in R2. (I didn't test this in R3.)


(Some functions are mezzanines in World, which are natives in REBOL, 
so they'll in most cases be slower in World.)

On Linux.

Re: naming convention from ann-reply

You could use the same names as they are now: world_linux.xxx and 
then suggest the user can/should rename his version as world.xxx. 
That way a person can get going immediately without that step if 
he wants to.

Size is probably because of some Windows includes/libs. From my mac:

-rwxrwxr-x+  1 john  staff  360286  4 Dec 09:53 world_linux
-rwxr-xr-x   1 john  staff  346216  3 Dec 11:27 world_macosx
-rw-r--r--+  1 john  staff  515991  4 Dec 09:50 world_win32.exe


The OS X and Linux version is much smaller. I have to dig into that 
at some point. But I don't think, it's so important right now.

Pekr: "why it is so "big", as it mostly compares to /Core? :-)"


world's linux binary is already smaller than rebol/core 2.7.8 for 
linux. (not that it matters, though :)

Ok, under Windows, I found, I had to initialize the networking, so 
that's done at startup. (This isn't necessary under OS X and Linux.) 
You can see the code being executed in the function init_net () in 
the file src/host/win32/network.c. If you think, it should be done 
otherwise, let me know.

Is there a way to figure out, what directory a command launches from, 
which will work across platforms?

Yes and no. There are platform-specific ways. This gist of it:

- Linux: readlink("/proc/self/exe")
- OSX: _NSGetExecutablePath
- Win32: GetModuleFileNameW

(We recently discussed this issue in relation to R3 as well.)

To check for which platform, World is running on, system/version/platform 
can today be:

	"Mac OS X"
	"Linux"
	"Win32"


Is that suitable? Are there better suggestions? Is there a standard 
for this?

Maybe I should call it "Linux32" and hold the 64-bit versions clean... 
So there can be a future "Linux", which is 64-bit.

The current Linux version is compiled under Linux Mint 12 "Lisa" 
32-bit.

For GCC, you can see get the target machine tuple with the "-dumpmachine" 
flag. This would give you stuff like:
i486-linux-gnu
x86_64-linux-gnu
arm-linux-gnueabi
i686-apple-darwin10
i586-mingw32msvc

Maybe platform could be, 'macosx, 'linux and 'windows and variation 
something like 'intel-32, 'intel-64, etc. Or do we need a third variable?

Something like this?

switch [platform variation] [
	[linux intel-32] [do something]
	[linux intel-64] [do domething else]
]

switch reduce ... and without the first blocks inside. Just e.g. 
linux intel-32 [...]

w> platform: 'linux
== linux
w> variation: 'intel-32
== intel-32

w> switch reduce [platform variation] [linux intel-32 [print "Found 
it!"]]
Found it!