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About the native GUI option (using only what the OS provides), I'm 
pretty confident that the minimum common should be enough to cover 
most needs for business apps, I will do a prototype for the Red IDE. 
Having a free drawing x-platform canvas, for games and non-native 
GUI would also be needed, SDL seems to be the best backend for that 
AFAIK (that gives us also OpenGL for free).

I will probably host a server that will provide packaged and selected 
libraries for Red (with builtin support in Red for getting them). 
For sharing code, my plan was to built some support for that right 
into the IDE.

Depend on what you mean by "debug version" and what debugging tools 
you're thinking about. My plan for Red is to deeply integrate it 
with the IDE, so that you'll be able to have advanced debugging capabilities, 
like step-by-step debugging. Such feature could maybe also be ported 
to the console version, so you'll be able to use it even without 
the IDE installed.


Also, I have thought the Red execution architecture to be as reflective 
as possible in order to try to support memory image loading/saving 
and stopping/resuming (think Smalltalk). It's very tricky (not sure 
we'll have it in the end), but if we can achieve it, you'll be able 
to get a snapshot of a running Red program on file, transfer it and 
resume it somewhere else....ideal for reproducing exact bugs occuring 
conditions. EDIT: the right expression for that is "Image-based persistence".


In the meantime, we already have some "debug mode": -d switch for 
Red and -g switch for Red/System (we'll probably adopt -d for both, 
-g will be reserved for gdb support). It's mainly intended for internal 
usage for now, the Red/System one can be useful to locate runtime 
errors in source code (usable, but still needs some fixes though).

As long as I don't have to tug the IDE around, then it all sounds 
great. :-) Sometimes you just want to spend 10 seconds installing 
Red and then quickly run a script, just like REBOL.

I wish we could put Red in the "Programming" menu of the RPi...It 
probably will need to wait for the Red IDE to be ready...

AdrianS: the output of the lexer is nested blocks of Red values, 
same as REBOL with its own lexer (LOAD). The AST is not stored anywhere, 
AST nodes are created and consumed on the fly during the compilation. 
So the closest thing to an AST you can get currently is the output 
of the lexer.


For the needs of a code editor, maybe you could just invoke it on 
the currently edited line (though you would need to deal with unmatched 
opening/closing delimiters). I haven't yet though how I will achieve 
it in Red IDE.

Henrik:I agree with your way of thinking, that is the kind of pragmatic 
approach I take often too when designing any dialects or even APIs. 
For the Red native GUI system, I will prototype it with the first 
big Red app I plan to write: the Red IDE.

I agree with Henrik 90%. The hard part is picking the target app 
and important elements. A game, or modern app with animation elements 
is a very different target than an "efficiency above all" business 
app. One of my failed attempts with REBOL was to get Carl, for just 
this reason, to identify a target audience. It guides your design. 


In the case of a Red/REBOL GUI, maybe there is no single design or 
dialect. Making small apps simple is hard to match to the needs of 
complex apps. If you're writing database/CRUD apps, wouldn't it be 
great to have a toolset designed just for that? That same toolset 
won't work well for games though.


I think using an IDE as the first target app is a *fantastic* idea. 
It covers a lot of areas, including the possibility of building on 
an extensible app framework (something lighter than Eclipse :-), 
files, documents, workflow, tool integration, customization, and 
many UI elements. And *we*, developers, are the target audience.

It is in my plans since the beginning to support internal profiling 
feature for Red, though I was thinking about processing them in the 
IDE mainly. In the Red/System v2 specs, I have already made some 
provision for low-level profiling of native functions.


I know about DTrace but never used it. I would need to study how 
it implements probe points to see if same technic could be used internally.


Currently, it would be quite easy to add a profiler to Red layer, 
it would just need to extend the stack/mark*, stack/unwind* and stack/unroll 
function to collect the data. But as we have other high-priority 
features to implement first, it will probably wait a few months (unless 
someone wants to implements it, I would be glad to give the basic 
hints on how to achieve it easily).

Pekr: thanks, I hope to get the device + SDK in January. My application 
to their developer program was based on an innovative IDE for Red 
powered by Leap Motion device. ;-)

sounds cool :-) Lately I was wondering about the possible benefits 
of Red and R3. Difficult to judge, but could there be any overlapping 
ground, where twose two projects could cooperate? e.g your IDE for 
R3 to, simply a language would be a plugin, or - both projects want 
to address Android - could one bridge to JNI be used for both?

For Red, if someone doesn't jump in and do it, Doc will have to. 
Then he has to decide how important it is to helping Red succeed. 
I think it is, and will also help set a foundation for a Red IDE. 
For that, I don't know if it will even help Doc if we write up things 
we like, or don't about various consoles. I think he has a good feel 
for what is needed.

Gerard: thanks for the links. It is too early for debug hooks, when 
Red IDE will be there, it will be completly integrated with Red, 
so those debug hooks as a public interface will probably be unnecessary.

Gerard: reading the comments from your links, all the features people 
mention are on my todo-list for the Red IDE. ;-)

Here's the code for the Red GUI IDE:

Red []

#include %GTK/GTK.red

view/title [
	text: area
	button "Do" [
		unless any [
			none? script: get-area-text text
			empty? script
			empty? code: load script
			unset? result: do code
		][
			prin "== "
			probe result
		]
	]
	button "View" [
		all [
			script: get-area-text text
			not empty? script
			not empty? code: load script
			view code
		]
	]
	button "Quit" close
] "Red GTK+ IDE"

On the other hand, unknown paths now exit the interpreter with an 
error. That's what they should do, but the error currently can't 
be trapped, so it makes tools such as GTK-IDE unworkable

You'll have much more sophisticate debugging tools in the Red IDE. 
;-)

Well - IDE is IDE, I mean - the runtime stuff. Simply put (and most 
probably worrying unnecessarily and sounding like a broken machine), 
let's make R3/Red another Amiga like OS :)

If you update everything, it happens on console-pro and GTK-IDE

I removed the browser IDE example from the list of apps on our Redsite, 
because it is crashed by #428

Ok, one last possible bug to investigate in GTK-IDE script and we 
should be ready to release.

I use Textpad on Win7 for coding. As Textpad does not support Unicode, 
I also use Notepad++ for Red UTF-8 scripts. On Windows, I use PE 
Explorer for reviewing the disassembled code and IDA Pro for debugging 
it (hopefully, this happens rarely). I also use IDA Pro on Linux/IA-32 
and gdb everywhere else. On Mac, I try to use osxdebug, when it's 
not crashing.


I dream about the day when I'll be able to replace all those tools 
with a cross-platform Red[/System] IDE.

I had the idea of adding a button to it to compile the console and 
1 to launch the console and as such making it more of an IDE/toolbox. 

Pretty busy and going away for a short holiday, no computer.

Anyway, if you try GTK-IDE, you'll get output in the window

btw - two days ago I read about Google releasing new Android JAVA 
IDE, so Eclipse will get some competition ...

The new IDE, Android Studio, is based on JetBrains' IntelliJ IDEA. 
You can get more details in this blog post:

http://blogs.jetbrains.com/idea/2013/05/intellij-idea-and-android-studio-faq/

Working in Android Studio a bit, looking into structures, what does 
it support, etc., I can't foresee, what our aproach is going to be, 
so lookinf forward to it. E.g. the IDE generates GUI definitions 
into XML files, ditto various configs, translations. So - what I 
expect is that you create basid .apk with certain featureset, and 
from that on, it will be manipulated from Red side. Justo wondering, 
if we will be able to dynamically generate UI elements, etc? Or will 
you suggest ppl to use your basic .apk, do certain work in Android 
Studio, and the supporting backend in Red? Or is your idea that ppl 
should not need to eventually touch sw like Android Studio?

For what I plan, you will not need anything else than Red (and eventually 
Red IDE) in order to produce Android apps. You won't need to have 
JDK installed.

Pekr: nope, but it doesn't matter much which IDE I'm using as it's 
just for prototyping.

Blue is a system for teaching object-oriented programming, developed 
at the University of Sydney, Australia. It is an integrated development 
environment (IDE) and a programming language. Blue has been used 
for teaching since 1997. The development was stopped in 1999 when 
one of its principals, Michael Kšlling, began applying the IDE design 
to the Java programming language, resulting in BlueJ.


Sydney, Australia. Opposite side of the World, opposite of Red. :)

I think it's good to have both from many perspectives, one being 
that EITHER reduces the values while PICK does not. I tend to use 
PICK for passive values and EITHER for evaluating expressions. You 
can also express a different intent using PICK than EITHER, think 
how a static code analysis tool (e.g. an IDE) would interpret it.

I can't wait to have a cross-platform Red IDE and forget about what 
"installation" means. :-) A Red OS would also help a lot. ;-)

I just released Rebol IDE v.5: http://rebol2.blogspot.it/2012/07/ide.html
 send your comments and suggestions

With Doc's latest Red fixes, I was able to write a very simple IDE 
in the GUI dialect:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-GTK/dir?ci=tip&name=examples


You can write either regular Red code or GUI dialect code, and execute 
it with respectively the Do or View button. Do executes the code 
in the interpreter, so no compilation is needed, but the current 
limitations of the interpreter apply.


The code is only 25 lines, but at Brian's request, I'll post that 
in the #Red channel.

I added seven Red GTK+ examples to the test builds, including the 
new text editor and simple IDE, so you can try them out right away.

The sources are here:
http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-GTK/dir?ci=tip&name=examples

The binary programs are here:
http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip


*/Red/console-pro now includes the GTK binding, so you can make GUIs 
interactively right from the Red interpreter console.

Further, HBOX and VBOX styles are now available for layouting.

I added binaries for the Red browser example to the test repository, 
so you can try it right away, in */Red/GTK-browser:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip


The latest Red interpreter enhancements are also in the build run. 
In the console, GTK-IDE and GTK-browser, path accessors can now be 
used.

I fixed the bug that was breaking cURL networking on Windows:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-cURL/dir?ci=tip


I've updated the binaries. This fixes READ in common/input-output, 
console-pro, GTK-text-editor, GTK-browser and RedSystem/read-web-page:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip&name=MSDOS


The binaries for all platforms include the latest Red enhancements, 
particularly support in the interpreter for function creation at 
runtime and execution of those functions that are not compiled and 
thus only have source available. This enhances console-pro, GTK-IDE 
and GTK-browser:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/Red-test/dir?ci=tip

I updated our Redsite for the latest Red features, specifically runtime 
function creation in the interpreter (which executes the Redpages):

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/index.red

I added a simple IDE example to the list of apps:

http://red.esperconsultancy.nl/examples/IDE.red


It's a cross between the standalone GTK-IDE example and Try REBOL; 
basically Try Red written in Red itself. There are two main areas: 
one for editing your code and one for showing the result. Since it 
runs on your computer, unlike Try REBOL, it keeps state between execution 
of code snippets.


To browse the site and the apps you need the latest binary version 
of the GTK-browser. See above.

I have all the images from the docs from REBOL-IDE cluttering my 
scripts folder now. Is it possible to use a seperate map for these? 
Please?

The ELF emitter can optionaly include symbols in DWARF format, but 
there's no equivalent feature for the PE emitter (the PDB format 
is undocumented and quite complex). My plan has always been to provide 
a standalone native code debugger for Red/System, with a source-level 
debugger part once the IDE will be there. For the kernel-mode developments, 
we need some remote debugging functionality, which could be provided 
in different ways, including a specialized kernel driver in Red/System 
for debugging support. In the meantime, a kernel-mode PRINT will 
do. ;-)

The fundamental way to fix it would be to change the VMware emulation 
to ATA/IDE

I believe it is using ata/ide

I want to start an Apple iOS group ASAP.  I have some thoughts about 
the approach for iOS Apps.  Certainly I know what our research team 
does:
1.  Write HTML, CSS,  JQuery Mobile Apps in TextMate environment.
2.  Provision them for iPod, iPhone, iPad using PhoneGap
3.  Finish development in XCode IDE.

4.  Directly install them in up to 100 devices (Apple Developer Agreement).
5.  Use our Apps in a classroom session or two.
6.  Make modifications and update them on all the devices.
7.  Run a few more classroom sessions
8.  Make more modifications.

This is a design research approach we use for our studies.

The LiveCode KickStarter campaign to first re-structure the code, 
make it easy to accpept contributions, build a new IDE and some modernisation 
has raised over 500,000 GBP (more than 750,000 USD).


Same Carl didn't try something along those lines before releasing 
REBOL 3.

It's actually pretty easy to see how they managed it. It was:

- A multi-language IDE (not a programming language, people already 
get those for free)
- With a GUI with an emphasis on modern graphic design (pretty!)
- With a fancy demo (more pretty!)

- With an initial focus on programming languages and development 
platforms that are already popular (built-in customer base)


Powerful IDEs are some of the only development tools that people 
are still willing to pay money for (i.e. Visual Studio). Most people 
can't choose what language they write in, but they more often can 
choose their IDE. And for crappy-but-IDE-friendly languages, an IDE 
can make all the difference in your productivity. They're not as 
helpful for really powerful extensible languages like Rebol or Perl, 
unless the language is so bad that just about anything would help 
(Perl). Plus, since an IDE is an end-user app you can afford to GPL 
it, since the only stuff built on it are add-ons - that doesn't work 
for programming languages unless they have a clear distinction between 
user code and built-in code that is distinct enough to not violate 
the GPL distinctions, because most of the competition is permissive 
- and without the GPL restrictions there is nothing to sell, so there 
is no business model to get a return on investment.


It's nice to point to other open source projects and say "See! We 
could have done that!" but unless those are comparable projects their 
success isn't comparable either.

LiveCode is not a multi-language IDE. The IDE supports one langauge 
LIveCode.which is a descendant of xTalk.

Oh, I was getting it mixed up with the recent successful IDE launch 
on Kickstarter. Let me check.

OK, so it's a single-language IDE aimed primarily at the education 
market, still with a nice-looking GUI if not as modern, with an appeal 
based on Apple-fan nostalgia for HyperCard. That's a tougher sell, 
but since it's education market you can get away with GPL/commercial, 
and since it's Apple-nostalgia you can raise that much money from 
merely thousands of investors instead of the millions that you'd 
need if you were going for a less-well-off target market. Makes sense, 
but it's still nice to see.

As good as REBOL is it could use a good IDE environment.  AmigaVision 
comes to mind.  I would be interested to see whether some large chunks 
of change were invested to put them over the top.  Right now R3 needs 
a message. What makes it special and valuable. What vision does it 
conjure up.

I think eduction is a great market for REBOL.  Net Logo actually 
did well in education.  If Education is the goal a great IDE is the 
place to start.  Something like a high quality layout.r or AmigaVision.

The IDE would be an App that could even be sold.

Hypercard worked because it had a very simple IDE approach.  Power 
users became proficient at scripting and teachers shared their cards.

mdViewer

- Thanks for all the feedback (both public and private) guys
- Sunanda: 'stats - missed that one; system/stats should fix it

- shadwolf: MD2-IDE was the VID proto-type; mdViewer is the *real* 
View implementation (i.e. I won't radically change the render engine 
on you again ;) )

eFishAnt your right !!! in a C# ressource explorer motion (wich you 
can see in Shardevolp IDE for example ) could be an amazing thing 
and even more if the same code all you to do so on evry OS rebol 
stands in

Imagine context as a "colour" of a word (btw would be nice to see 
in an ide).

Then, in your example, the first context function changes the colour 
of all the a,b and o1 words to "red" say.

Then the next inside context function changes a,c, and o2 to green.

And finally the inmost context function doesn't get to change anything 
because there are no set-words to process - if there were they would 
have been made blue of course ;-)

(there is a comment inside obj-browser.r mentioning Ammon might use 
for RIDE IDE...and it might have some methods to do what you need 
to do.)

I understand about the "Rebol Explainer" app. ... maybe someday in 
a Rebol IDE.


But are the enhancements "à la Gabriele" still possible (i.e. Keywords, 
Words, and Tabs tags ) ?

The wait is over!
It was Massimiliano's REBOL IDE script. Now for the 2048th!
   http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=rebolide.r

a graphical gui designer. drag and drop controls/components on a 
form . something like a nice IDE...

A proof of concept IDE for MakeDoc2 - http://www.dobeash.com/files/md2-ide.zip
- enjoy! ;)

I tested MD2-IDE with MDP formated doc the rendering is pretty good 
only some little flags aren't supported like = toc ;)

Well Ashley you make a such good work with your preview widget in 
your MD2-IDE project that I couldn't resist to the temptation to 
add it to my own MDP-GUI v1.3

What would really make that MD2 IDE kewl is the ability to directly 
edit the elements in the preview pane.

Geomol is right I had to add the parsing of =url flag into the Ashley 
MD2-IDE rendering process to adapt it to the MDP format

will be to settle it by inverting the problem : edit text in a console 
or an editor, and have the console or editor to parse the text and 
transform it according to the commands it find in it.  I did search 
for that.  The closest library to such goal I found is either scintilla 
for an editor or tkcon, the adaptable tcl console.  But all this 
suppose that we dispose of Rebol source code to put the language 
parser in it, right (like ion.pe)?  So we would have to rely on R# 
(open source) instead of Rebol?  Either way, it does seem that handling 
the problem well is pushing us out of Rebol; not a charming proposition. 
 I am just expressing my frustration of not being able to solve a 
problem that is not existing in other languages.  As a priority, 
I do think that the repositioning of the caret is the show stopper. 
   I could live with NOT rendering in the SAME window as the editing 
window; I consider it a form of cosmetics.  But I can hardly ask 
people to start edit documents in a lame editor that takes seconds 
to go from page 120 to 130.   It would be nice if RT could find a 
solution to that, as it would ease the way to specialised IDE's, 
Ide for Rebol and the many specialised dialects.  By the way, did 
Ammon Johnson finished to wrote his REBOL-based IDE, called RIDE?

Damn Small Linux 2.0 released..  http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/index.html


Damn Small is small enough and smart enough to do the following things:


    * Boot from a business card CD as a live linux distribution (LiveCD)
    * Boot from a USB pen drive

    * Boot from within a host operating system (that's right, it can 
    run *inside* Windows)

    * Run very nicely from an IDE Compact Flash drive via a method we 
    call "frugal install"

    * Transform into a Debian OS with a traditional hard drive install
    * Run light enough to power a 486DX with 16MB of Ram

    * Run fully in RAM with as little as 128MB (you will be amazed at 
    how fast your computer can be!)

    * Modularly grow -- DSL is highly extendable without the need to 
    customize

Well worth the effort Louis.  GNU/Linux is and always has been my 
favourite "IDE".   :)

So sure the ideal would be to have a complete REBOL dedicated IDE 
that exploit to it's maximum all the possibility of rebol ...

The need for a good IDE has been high on my "thought list" these 
days.

Yes - probably IDE starts with better editor.

CArl franckly I use all the day long Crimson Editor and it's suffisant 
... but sure an IDE that allow people to manage code / AGG graphics 
animation (a little bit like flash studio ) would be top ...

do oyu think it is possible to add source-position to values? for 
the ide-version?

CArl I'am agree with you VID is a very amazing system no challenge 
with it in any other langagues ... But The first thing that came 
to us when we show VID based GUI is " why does this window looks 
so wired..." The fact that I spent on in less time than in other 
langage (even IDE compositor based) is not relevent for the non programmer 
or informatic nerd (sorry for the nerd word ...). What he want is 
what he knows GUI that are sharp designed but in the convention he 
knows hehehehe  ;)

I've been thinking about getting a CF card to IDE adaptor and buy 
a 2 or 4 GB CF card, put it in my laptop and find a small Linux distro 
that doesn't use swap.

The dialect is fine, but it's missing an IDE

REALLY hard to wrap my head around the dialect.. and its VERY verbose.. 
yet using the Flash IDE = simple.

I did not want to offend you. I never worked with Flash, so my question 
was just curiousity, if creating Flash stuff that way could be usefull 
outside REBOL community, or would 99% ppl prefer visual IDE for such 
purpose?

I would like to create something like a rebol/flash vid in a future. 
and what I can say is, that I don't like the visual IDE too much 
for coding. All the actions on different frames and in different 
sprites.

Thank you Oldes! I really would like to learn using your dialect! 
I hate Adobe IDE as well ;-)

Oldes: many developers don't like to code in the Flash visual IDE, 
like you, that's why Adobe came up with Flex. The good news is that 
the SDK is open source.

I would like to see you how you create the swf from above in Flash 
IDE... I don't say that IDE is bad... I just need something else 
sometimes... and it's fun for me:) And I'm sure I don't want to write 
apps in MXML.. It's not funny at all. Anyway... making MXML output 
would be much more easier than producing SWF files directly. Anyway... 
I have Flex as well.. it has 196MB. My dialect has 95kB

And I have Import-swf command in the dialect (not documented yet 
as I still change it a little bit). I'm using it to include large 
animations made in IDE. As I have a caching mechanism already, I 
can include it in my dialect and control it in miliseconds, don't 
have to wait many seconds to compile all the animation in the IDE 
every time when I change a bit of a code.

I can see the potential.. just thinking how difficult it would be 
to create complex layouts.. as opposed to just drag 'n drop with 
Flash IDE

I smell a Kommonwealth Flex IDE by the middle of next week ;)

but we need an IDE for that purpose

Does it mean we can use Flash IDE tools to do animations, save them 
as curves and then possibly render it using AGG 2.4 in View? :-)

And the goodjvmswhere just starting. Supercede, MS own, borlands. 
Then MS changed their vm and ide a bit..

Yep. And a popular ide  which silently  used them. Good work, both 
vm and  ide. But  it worked not on the others. And  some things where 
 chngedfrom thestandard, so stuff fro other ideasdid not work well. 
of course every bug was javas  fault, not that  of MS.

The Curl doc is not in HTML/PDF formats. It's a Curl Applet itself. 
After downloading and Installing the Curl IDE, you'll have the Curl 
document, which is an applet, like I said. You can find some interesting 
2D / 3D Curl applets in the curl.com web site. I am impressed by 
its 2D / 3D ability.

CodeGear Ruby IDE is almost done. http://grabtherail.com/

You mean such a tutorial? The framework itself is not interesting 
for me. He made just a bitmap slideshow with tons of files required. 
All of this is made just in Flash IDE with some template used.

Reichart - it is exactly as Henrik said - I just meant "real life 
apps", while you mentioned mostly media stuff, which is imo not Rebol's 
target and imo never will be, unless we would get some rebol authoring 
IDE, which I don't see coming in a year or two ahead ....

Environments are modules such as: console, browser, encap... but 
in R3.0 also things like Apache mod, IDE, enbedded, raw I/O, and 
others.

liquidator's first module I wish to build is  a REBOL IDE.  so that 
means...  a decent editor, code compositing, concurrent souce version 
control... right on the source without CVS (no need), notes, unit 
testing, etc... and debugging, when possible.

hmm, could it be used e.g. for rebol programming? e.g. each node 
would be your module? hehe, kind of cool IDE for rebol :-)

the second module I'll be building for elixir. is a rebol IDE.

This framework could be a good choice for your port of the flash 
game. You can publish on WIndows/Mac/Wii/iPhone.

I have been playing with their IDE on Mac..it was not so great but 
not much worse than Flash IDE  I know they are now building IDE for 
Windows.

You can script the game using JIT compiled JavaScript or C#(Mono)..what 
a pity there is no Rebol support :)

I plan to do something in my free time in a 3d engine .. I need that 
it works in a browser so unity seems the most obvious choice, adobe 
director is expensive and probably outdated, stonetrip / shiva seems 
even more IDE/GUI heavy than unity giving me even less controll (although 
I am not 100% sure bcause I haven't digged really deep in any of 
those.) Then there is Java (which has Ardor3d which is very early 
in the making , and jme which is somewhat "out") but starting with 
it would be at a lot more low level than unity and similar game engines, 
with no real docs and tools as far as I can see.

One drawback of such change would be that these fields would be stored 
as HTML in the database making them less easily usable for external 
non-HTML renderers (like making a View-based client, or integrating 
in a IDE).