AltME groups: search

Francois, don't forget to post update notices to the Announce group 
as well.

I made this group to talk about Orca.

There's a separate group for discussing the niceties of licensing 
:)

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=55553&package_id=196714

Maybe we could use Google Groups beta ?
http://groups.google.com/intl/en/googlegroups/about.html


create, join and search email-based mailing lists, and designate 
your group as either public or restricted.

Postings to both Usenet and mailing lists appear in 10 seconds and 
are indexed within 10 minutes.

it would be nice if AltME could carry a gateway to an HTML chat for 
a single group

Why, when we have the Orca group here ?

People have mentioned that we're the guest of RT here. Although Carl 
is fairly OK with clone development now, we're still a competitor, 
so a separate world may be the polite thing to do. At least I'm not 
sure it would be appreciated to make this group web public

Boron looks like a complete ORCA reimplementation, so I changed the 
name of this group to reflect that

There was also a REBOL clone on .NET that some french group started, 
don't remember the name.

Bring it up with Carl for R3, or suggest it in CureCode. This is 
all a little off-topic for this group anyways - we should be in Core.

Still really off-topic for this group. We're trying to keep this 
group on-topic for the discussion of R2 releases, so valuable information 
doesn't get buried in the torrent.

The is not like the !REBOL3 group, where anything R3-related is on-topic.

This belongs in rebol school group

BrianH wants to keep this group to discuss 2.7.8

And back in the Core group - we're trying to keep this group on its 
topic of R2 releases. We don't want to lose such discussions in the 
middle of discussions of semantics. The only reason this group was 
created is because some of the people working on the development 
of R2 don't want to use chat yet. This group is *only* a replacement 
for the R2-Beta world.

This is not the R2 equivalent of the !REBOL3 group. Please don't 
abuse the fact that we can't move messages in AltME :(

I'm sorry, I don't want to be a jerk about this. This group is used 
as a reference when we do new R2 releases. It's of less value as 
a reference if off-topic stuff is overwhelming the release discussions. 
Please be nice to the R2 release manager :(

sorry to add junk, but I *really* think this group should be renamed 
(this is On Topic :-)  

probably !REBOL2-release or something like that.


its too easy to mistake right now with !REBOL3 being such an active 
group.

There are group policy settings that can make it so that programs 
can only be run from certain directories, and security settings to 
make it so only administrators can write to those directories. And 
the only reason that they have to do things so drastically is because 
of developers like you who insist on writing Win9x apps and trying 
to run them on Win2k+. Apps like AltME.

We have been discussing things in the open here in this group instead 
of the R2-Beta world (which is why this group is not web-public.

so it's apport from rebol3 ?

is it still usefull to have a R2-Beta world or move into a group 
of rebol3 ?
How to join R2-Beta ?

So a new group group in rebol3 world ?

I think that Carl, Gabriele or BrianH can give you R2-beta access. 
If you need to report R2 bug, you can use any (not R3 related) group 
here and submit it into Rambo.

It might come to that, but I am hoping to keep using this group as 
long as possible to manage the R2 release discussions.

(Whoops, wrong group)

This is from August in the SDK group


Trying to see if .net is installed but this gives me an empty block 


 foreach key keys: list-reg/HKLM "SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet 
 Settings\5.0\User Agent\Post Platform" [
                print key
 ]

even though I can see it full of keys in the registry ...

continued from REBOL3! group.


they where not listed in RAMBO... I was just lucky to be online with 
Carl and it got fixed in a beta version of 2.7.7 in one afternoon 
with cyphre giving a more robust fix the day after.


 He also had the fix to another annoying issue which makes first item 
 to follow a space in a text to affect the transparency.  the more 
 spaces the darker it gets.  his even affects other items in a text 
 ends with spaces ! 

though I wonder if that ended up in the 2.7.8 release ' :-/

Do we need a RED group .. like the Boron group?  Doc, where are you! 
 ?

if RED is becoming serious attempt at REBOL similar languages/clones, 
then we need new group.

We're a bit OT here, don't want to hijack the group.

well, the group purpose is completed!

ok, should move this to boron group...

Yes, we had a discussion about this in the Core group recently. See 
posts around 13-May.

Sorry, my last post here was an answer to something in the !REBOL3 
group.

From group Core-old:


A: the PATH action is what the interpreter uses to evaluate VALUE/selector 
expressions for each datatype. It is an internal action and has no 
external purpose in programs. These kinds of words often appear as 
a sort of 

side-effect" from how REBOL is structured.  Datatypes are implemented 
as a sort of object class, where the interpreter "sends messages" 
to the class to evaluate expressions. The PATH action is a message 
that tells the datatype to perform a pick-like or poke-like internal 
function."

It seems to original come from a post in group "RT Q&A" dated 11-Dec-05.

This is about the HTTP scheme, but I can't find a group for R2 schemes.


Does anyone have a patch for the HTTP scheme that handles 204 (No 
Content) responses where no headers are returned? The standard scheme 
throws an error as there are no headers to parse. Here is the 'success 
case handler:

        success: [
            headers: make string! 500

            while [(line: pick port/sub-port 1) <> ""] [append headers join line 
            "^/"]

            port/locals/headers: headers: Parse-Header HTTP-Header headers
            port/size: 0

            if querying [if headers/Content-Length [port/size: load headers/Content-Length]]

            if error? try [port/date: parse-header-date headers/Last-Modified] 
            [port/date: none]

            port/status: 'file
    ]


For anyone familiar with the scheme, would the proper behavior be 
to set all related 'port fields to zero or none? e.g.

            port/locals/headers: headers: none
            port/size: 0
            port/date: none
            port/status: none

The data exchange dialect is a good point to have constructs. Then 
my logic goes:


REBOL values can be divided in two groups, 1. the ones with a non-ambigious 
lexical representation and 2. the ones without such lexical representation. 
Datatypes of values in the second group include:


unset! none! logic! bitset! image! map! datatype! typeset! native! 
action! routine! op! function! object! library! error! port! event!

and maybe a few more depending on what version of REBOL. The rest 
is in the first group.


It would make sense to have constructs for the values in the 2nd 
group. Then I look at some examples of constructs:

#[string! "abc"] #[email! "[abc-:-d]"]


Those are not necessary. If it's because all values can be represented 
as constructs, then why doesn't this work?

>> #[integer! 1]
** Syntax Error: Invalid construct -- #[


And how would values of type native!, action!, op!, etc. be represented 
as constructs?

I'm not convinced.

(Notice this is the "Core" group, not the "!REBOL3" group, and I'm 
talking R2.)

John, it sounds like where you get confused, or think of things as 
bugs or design flaws, is when having your REBOL "That's funny!" moments, 
borne of deep tinkering. Aside from the "copy series in funcs" behavior, 
which I think bites many people at some point, your issues don't 
come from writing application code in REBOL and bumping up against 
REBOL's behavior. Rather, it seems that REBOL's implementation and 
design don't match your expecations in these cases, and you really 
want it to. :-)


The reason I asked about consequences is because you may want a change 
that affects other users negatively. Imagine REBOLers as being in 
one of two groups. Group A is the gurus. They have internalized REBOLs 
design, understand it deeply, and use BIND and recursive PARSE rules 
without fear. That group is very small. Group C contains everybody 
else, which includes people that don't know about using /local with 
funcs, and suggest REBOL should use  = for "assignment". They have 
never used USE, BIND, or many other functions, because they aren't 
sure how they work. Some of them know a little about series references, 
so they always use COPY to be safe. (Yes, group B exists too, but 
they are much more like C than A).


If REBOL were meant only for A users, it would be very different. 
As a designer, it seems pragmatic to make it so things work well 
for the B and C users who, when they hit a problem that requires 
advanced understanding, will work around issues with the bits they 
understand (and adding many COPY calls), no matter how inelegant. 
Group A users may suffer at their expense, but I'm OK with that, 
because I'm not one of them.

I am not sure which group to choose for this poll for REBOL preprocessing 
directives. I hope this one can be used, but wait for a moment before 
going ahead to allow for objections.

What I mean, regarding %localize.r, is that any script that defines 
directives (one or more) could use the naming convention. And it 
makes perfect sense to group related directives in a script.

This group is for discussion related to DocKimbel's (SoftInnov) Red 
language.

whoever created this group .. check your spelling!

Red's web forum now opened : http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang?hl=en

Maxim: see http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang?hl=enfor the 
anwser to that question.

yeah, I thought the news group was the intended method of communication

Would need to make this group web-public first :-)

If you have some technical questions about Red, please use preferably 
the official channel at Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang?hl=en

Thanks.

Graham: I've posted a short reply to your code bubbles question here: 
http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/8ecea42063ee4e14/6f7364ebadc7291d?hl=en#6f7364ebadc7291d

Can't find any settings in Google Group allowing to change the default 
threshold for word wrapping...I find it too low when reading messages 
from the web.

Characters range: yes I need to change that, PeterAWood posted a 
note about it too: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/99e14e44fbf69abf?hl=en

Same with the bit!, bitset!, logic! group. Bits and bitsels are storage 
types, but logic values are what conditional expressions work with. 
This also has the benefit of letting the compiler avoid putting in 
if 0 checks all over the place and just go by condition codes instead, 
especially for inlined control flow code.

Thanks guys for the insights and propositions. I found it a bit difficult 
to follow in realtime, I'm not sure that AltME is the best tool for 
such conversations. Maybe we should give a try to the Red web forum 
next time: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang?

Anonymous posting is supposed to be possible now on the Red Google 
group, but I can't

Posting anonymous comments on the RED blog is now possible. It is 
not possible to post comments anonymously on the Red Google group.

This article was an influence in the decision to request people to 
register to the Google Group - http://ejohn.org/blog/google-groups-is-dead/

I'm curious what Reichart is thinking about such improvements to 
AltME (preferably in the !AltME group).

http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/feeds

I guess you wanted to post that to ~Vent group and posted that here 
by mistake?

Peter changed the topic when he said "I don't believe it is GPL because 
of that just as all Java code is not GPL because Java is GPL.", and 
that is what needed clarification. Unfortunately, I couldn't move 
that message to the Licensing group, or edit my responses to be more 
clear (stupid AltME).

Sorry, that went in the wrong group.

you know, I was half joking when I suggested this group... :-)

:) well, it's a good group for this, as Doc would consider these 
things at some point.

(though we should go back to REBOL3! group)

http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/6a7438458d2d170b

Darn, I didn't get around to summarizing that argument here about 
struct vs. pointer in the google group, so it looks like its conclusions 
were completely ignored.

You asked me to summarize the argument in a google group post, but 
I didn't. Sorry.

This was long before meijeru got on the Red google group.

Hats off to Kaj!
 - from Miejeru on the Red Google Group

About the LLVM question on OSNews, someone with an account there 
could anwser by posting this link to a similar question on the Red's 
ML: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/eeca0a4787da56c2?hl=en

Kaj: we have decided to replace the "struct" and "pointer" by "declare". 
Please read this post: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/9c407676e2335919?hl=en

Command line arguments access now available: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/4b8cb7a5a49308ba?hl=en

(let's move to REBOL3 group)

has the Red google group moved somewhere else, don't see any activity

It's still at
http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang

wrong group

I was mostly interested in code sharing over text messages, but something 
like AltME or a code editor on my phone would be invaluable. A code 
editor that can send code snippets over SMS or other sharing services 
sounds interesting. I only mention this in this group because Red 
looks like it will end up on my phone before R3, barring a miracle.

Looks interesting, Steeve. Be sure to post what you find out about 
Textadept in the Editors group.

See #Boron group please.

My floating point support todo-list for Red/System:


http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/5fe1e6bde8576d51?hl=en

Doc, would you be interested in getting BeagleBone for the kind of 
experiments? See links group for more info. IMO embedded & mobile 
should be Red's target ...

As for ARM CPU support, I will have to rescan this group, about what's 
supported. We have one dev board with Cortex-M3

It could be an unknown signal group in POSIX.reds

I have x-posted that message to the Red ML also: http://groups.google.com/group/red-lang/browse_thread/thread/527afaf181eee8c7?hl=en

My Fibonacci benchmark results have scrolled way out of sight in 
the Other Languages group, so I'll repeat them here:

[New group to replace the old one that was somehow causing AltME 
resync problems]
Previous postings are here:
    http://www.rebol.org/aga-display-posts.r?post=r3wp439x1

A new group for discussing the Topaz language.

I don't have a timeline because I can't work on it 100% of the time.


I have many goals. One is to make creating web applications easy. 
I'll repost a message I posted earlier on a different group:

That would be nice, but this is also a Topaz group, and that's a 
REBOL convention :)

Oldes in Other languages group - "Hm.. i gave it a try and must say 
that Topaz is much more interesting." So, I would like to ask - is 
there any progress lately? Is Topaz already usable for real-life 
code? An what is an speed overhead in doing some app in Topaz in 
comparison to direct JS execution?

I don't have string parsing in Topaz yet, but I wanted to illustrate 
how what Endo is asking in the Parse group would be much easier:

Topaz Interpreter - (C) 2011 Gabriele Santilli - MIT License
>> b: ["bla" 1 2 "bla"]
== ["bla" 1 2 "bla"]
>> parse b [collect any [keep number! | skip]]
== [1 2]

New group for  new language.

We don't want to clog up this group with off-topic requests.

Q: Will this language be an open or closed source project?


A: Long answer: The plan is to fully open source it at some point, 
when version 1 is ready. Host depending sources are open in the alpha 
release, and it may make sense to open source more and more along 
the way, like sources for the different datatypes. The IT world is 
constantly changing. My nephew just went to the Devoxx Java conference 
in Belgium. Everybody had portable Mac computers. That was very different 
just a few years ago. Who knows, what devices we'll use in 5 years? 
I like to bring my software with me to new platforms. To be able 
to support new platforms faster, open source is a good thing. But 
some things needs to be fulfilled, before I'll open source it all.

1. This isn't a hobby project. I've invested a lot of time and work 
in this project, and I need to find a way to get something back from 
all that. One option is to have a good manual ready for developers 
to buy, open source it to get a lot of developers interested, and 
make a profit that way. There may be other ways (like someone or 
some company paying me to open source or make projects in World).

2. I need to know more about the consequences of open sourcing it, 
so I can avoid any nasty surprises. Knowing more from other similar 
projects could help. I need to figure out a proper license.

3. Even if I keep the sources simple and clean, I would like to clean 
up even more, before it can be open sourced.

A: Short answer: Currently it's partly open source.

Q: What is the main target?

A: The World prompt is a very powerful tool. Being what is known 
as "network transparent" helps in the era of the Internet. Server 
scripting and client scripting are obvious uses. The ability to easily 
make dialects makes it possible to wrap the language around the problem 
instead of trying to change the problem to fit the language. Interfacing 
with other technologies ... see "Introduction" on http://world-lang.org
in a few days.

Q: Is it closer to R2, R3, RED, Topaz architecture?

A: World run its code within a custom made virtual machine (VM). 
Compiling in World compiles World sources to this VM. This happen 
when source code is run or if explicitly compiled. REBOL is always 
interpreted (AFAIK), so that's different. I'm far from an expert 
in Red and Topaz, but as I understand it, Topaz is compiled/translated 
to JavaScript. So the JavaScript engine can be seen as the VM in 
World. And Red is compiled to native code, so that's different too. 
As I see it, all these languages work differently and can complement 
each other. (Help me here, if I'm wrong in any of this.)

Q: What was the main motivation, aka - why yet another language?

A: After I've learned REBOL, I find it frustrating to program in 
most (all) other languages. The difference is like when humans moved 
from carving words in stones to using a printing press a la Gutenberg. 
Then I found, I couldn't complete projects like my Canvas RPaint 
program on all major platforms (Win32, OS X and Linux), I couldn't 
run my code on new portable devices, and I needed better performance 
with scientific applications. With my background in graphics, music 
and science, I expect the language to develop into those areas.


Q: If (you) don't have any other target, why don't you work on Red? 
Or fork a project from Red?

A: I started initial work on World in late March 2009. The first 
post in the Red group here in AltME is from 27-Feb-2011. At that 
time, World was more than 7'000 lines of C.

Somewhere, in the road to version 1.0 you will need help. It belongs 
to you teling us when you will have clear in your mind the whole 
project. Then, please SHARE THE VISION and ask for cooperation and 
involvement of other programmers.


It's pretty clear in my mind, what version 1 is about. When I started, 
I wrote down the natives, which are really necessary to create a 
REBOL like language on a virtual machine. All the other functions 
should be able to be produced from this set of natives. I listed 
about 100. World currently has 83 natives implemented. Maybe some 
of them will get some more refinements before version 1, but you 
could say, the natives are 80% done.


You may think of this project as the Wildman project (see that group), 
not on native hardware, but on a virtual machine.

Pekr! Take a breath. When you're calm, then read your words here 
again. You're very off topic. Please move such rants to appropriate 
group. Please!

Then reality check:


This group was started 2 months ago. It's easy to go through it and 
look for my blue and yellow releases and notes. That's a lot of progress 
in 2 months. If you see it otherwise, then you're blind. The C sources 
of World has grown a lot in those two months, and it's quality work 
with few errors considering the amount.


You will most likely see the progress of World come in waves. I had 
worked intensely on it more than full time since before summer. Yes, 
more than full time (more than 8 hours a day, also week-ends), so 
that's a lot of man hours. The last month, I've done paid freelance 
work too. At the same time, for World I'm researching better networking 
(cURL), getting lib calls to work under Windows 64 using libffi and 
finishing the memory model, so circular references are coped with 
correctly. Why didn't I say so? Because I like to announce things, 
when it's done, instead of giving false hopes, but now I made an 
exception.


1) I'm not going to give my work away for free at this time. That's 
because I see no benefit in doing so.

2) World will not come in a situation like REBOL, with lots of errors 
for a long time and still closed source. If I wasn't able to continue 
work on World (to fix errors, make further progress or whatever), 
and if people relied on work already done, then I would open source 
it. As this isn't the current situation with World, this is no argument 
to open source it.


If you don't like my model, move on. Negative rants here are not 
productive.

Gregg wrote in group #Red: "World has similar goals I believe."


Yes. To clarify: There is World and there is World/Cortex. World 
is written in C and the Cortex extension is written in World. It's 
a design goal to have as little as possible in the C part, but because 
it's also a goal to have good performance, especially with math stuff, 
some functions are native (written in C), which could have been mezzanines 
(written in World), like ABS, COS, SIN, TAN (all small functions 
in C).


But large functions like PARSE and SORT and many other functions 
are part of the Cortex extension, so they're written in World and 
is therefore open source.


With the good support for dynamic loaded libraries, good performace 
with heavier functions can be achieved that way.


And then there is the REBOL extension (in the World file %rebol.w), 
which is there to hold further extensions and definitions needed 
to run REBOL scripts. Those are not in the Cortex extension, because 
I disagree with some of the REBOL design decisions, and because I 
would like the Cortex extension not to be too large.


For me, World and Cortex has the higher priority, the REBOL extension 
the lower priority, meaning I use more time on finishing World/Cortex 
for now.