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You beat me to it Gregg.  Starting Forth by Leo Brodie.  It includes 
the old school (and really the only reason to use Forth) block editor. 
 Without the block editor Forth is pretty much just another language, 
with it (and after getting used to EDLIN style editing), you get 
the immersive holy grail.  Thinking Forth is quite a bit more cerebral, 
but I know it's been made available in PDF, but I found this...

http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.htmlso far.

If I had to quickly pick an order;  REBOL, Forth, SNOBOL, Lisp.  
If I was told I HAD to do it in a class based object oriented language 
I'd probably pick SmallTalk ... no ... I'd probably just leave.  
To be honest, I've rarley seen a DSL that didn't require a programmer 
to script it anyway, so... I find the whole thing kind of moot.  
Moot is the wrong word.  A non-coder MIGHT be able to VID up a GUI 
but I doubt it would do much...or by the time they were done, the 
non-coder would have unknowningly become a coder.  I've not seen 
a DSL I'd turn over to Bob the manager to write progams in.  Even 
languages written to be specific; Erlang for telephony, Forth for 
telescopes, are still programmer languages. REBOL comes soooo close 
to being a data language that humans can use...but unfortunately 
nope;  Programmers required.  The magic all happens when you can 
build up layers, and stand on the shoulders of giants.  Something 
hardware engineers have been doing since day 1...programmers might 
learn by day 32'767 if we get lucky.  No doubt our smartest programmers 
will be fussing with strings 50 years from now with the same basic 
problems and mind sets faced 50 years ago.

I will need to start playing with this to see if I can come up with 
something and then maybe get some feedback on my attempts.  I don't 
know when I would get to this but thought I'd through it out there.

rfc: I have a (not so) little function that attempts to match a block 
of values to a given specification.  Example:

	>> probe match [%image.png :red 300x100 /old][
	[	file: file! | url!
	[	size: opt pair!
	[	attributes: any get-word! | refinement!
	[	]
	make object! [
		file: %image.png
		size: 300x100
		attributes: [:red /old]
	]


There's not much to the rules, they are -- one (default), opt (zero 
or one), any (zero or many), some (many).  If they don't match, they 
return an error.  Any suggestions?  Optimizations?

	http://www.ross-gill.com/r/match.r

What's the best approach to support normal Rebol things like FOREACH, 
IF, ANY, ALL and set-words, get-words within a dialect? I don't want 
to write Rebol parse rules for this.

Example: parse XYZ mydialect

XYZ: [
	repeat x 1 14 [
		a: get-point x 7
		set-point 7 x (a * 2)
	]
]
]

get-point and set-point are the dialect things. The rest should be 
normal rebol.

Is there a best practice how to get Rebol control structure support 
into dialects?

but isn't this just a regular rebol code block then .. a: get-point 
x 7 and set-point looks like a normal rebol func too?

Just assume that get-point and set-point is done via a dialect.

I think I get it. You can't use the set-word directly, as it's used 
to store the current location in the parsed block.

MaxV - to study it further, you can type following in console - print 
mold get-style 'button

I took a bit of a Rebol break for the new year.  But last night I 
had an idea that just wouldn't get out of my head.  It happened after 
I read about "code golf" on StackOverflow.  The premise is to use 
the fewest characters possible to solve a problem using a general 
purpose language (albeit perhaps one optimized for such a game, like 
"GolfScript")

True, but renaming variables is a burden as well.  As it happens, 
each numeric constant, symbol, or path operator breaks the chain 
so you get to start anew

Anyway, I'm not very interested in the super estoeric algorithms 
but do note that people get upvoted significantly for small solutions 
in languages like J: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_(programming_language)

Well you're free to work out an example of a better dialect but you'll 
be parsing URLs or something... like where I can do Ab to get a: 
b how would you get it?

I showed you my answer to get ['a b:] in a brief notation

Sunanda: Rebol definitely could get some publicity with empathetic 
people if it were to embrace the code golfers...

Not unless it's part of the program function (e.g. you use it in 
a multi-line character constant bounded by braces to get a carriage 
return in your target program)

Stevee: good catch, the commented version is not in sync with the 
decompiled version (as I said, day 1 of this, lots of back and forth). 
 If you run unmush you get:

Well it's more fun if I'm not doing it alone!!  Note that Code Golf 
answers are wikis, and rebmu is quite easy for Rebol programmers 
to grasp, easy to improve--I think it could be a showcase that might 
get the language in front of "fringe"/"outlier" developers.  (And 
earn perhaps a bit more respect than RebolTutorial's questions, though 
I will say that the visibility he's given by doing Q&A on a modern 
medium is better than nothing...any publicity is better than no publicity, 
the popularity of a tag in sheer number counts is rather important.)

(Being forced to fire up a VM that is willing to run AltME, having 
it mangle my links, and be unable to do "shift up" and have my entire 
line selected or get a right click menu is... well, I'm a sympathetic 
audience, but there's just no comparison to how slick StackOverflow 
is.)

Hence you can do things like pEf{Hello}{Goodbye} and get the effect 
of PRINT EITHER F [{Hello}] [{Goodbye}]

Terry, with the release of Cheyenne (soon I hope), you'll get a complete 
working example of encap-fs library usage.

Need some help...Can't seem to get Uniserv working on my XP laptop. 
 This is my first try...so I don't have enough experience to see 
what is happening.  Do I have the wrong version of core?

>> uniserve/boot
[uniserve] Async Protocol Admin loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol DNS loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol FastCGI loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol HTTP loaded

** Script Error: change expected series argument of type: series 
port
** Where: install-plugin
** Near: change pos/2 new
>>

I figured out how to stop the service tying up the 80 port , When 
i run this is what I get: >> do %/c/temp/rebol/uniserve/uni-engine.r
== true
>> uniserve/boot
[uniserve] Async Protocol Admin loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol DNS loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol FastCGI loaded
[uniserve] Async Protocol HTTP loaded

** Script Error: change expected series argument of type: series 
port
** Where: install-plugin
** Near: change pos/2 new

Not really, just trying to get the out-of-box experience

Maarten later on introduced so called "green threading" (?), so you 
can divide your exposed function functionality in several or many 
parts, to get better granularity. Then he introduced chaining- so 
that e.g. main Rugby process could become kind of proxy, and forward 
(chain) request to other instance. But then there were some problems 
iirc and Maarten left its development.

About server-side SSL : after several beers last year in Paris, Carl 
told me that the ssl:// scheme could be turn to work as server-side 
with just the right flag set (IIRC, was about setting the right "direction" 
in encryption), then you "just" have to implement server-side HTTPS 
protocol to support it fully. I've since that, tryed several times 
to get the info about the "magic flag" from Carl, without success. 
So I've prepared several dozens bottles of beer to be sure to get 
the info from him at the next DevCon ;-).

so if we bring some czech beers, we can probably get whole source 
code? ;)

If you're going to head IT services at this new company .. perhaps 
you could get someone to write this :)

is there a way to get one of those helper processes to do this?

maybe you can get what you want with iptables or ipfw (on os x it's 
ipfw)

Will... I want to make a private mp3 stream server to play music 
on a local network. So it must be solved on the server side... read 
only enough sound data from disk to play and distribute it to listeners. 
I have already the mp3 parser to get for example enough data to play 
during specified interval of time. Now it's just how to distribute 
it and don't send more data than is necessary  for the listeners.

As long as you get any event happening before a timeout occurs, you'll 
stay in the WAIT event loop.

As long as you get any event happening before a timeout occurs, you'll 
stay in the WAIT event loop.

 - Doc - is it really correct? I am far from being guru here, but 
 it sounds strange - that would mean, that as far as there are events 
 coming, you are not allowed to quit wait, no? I think that 'wait 
 waits for either the event, or an timeout to occur. If there is any 
 kind of event on port in wait-list, 'wait return. It can either return 
 with first port with event, or, when using /all refinement, with 
 block of all ports, which have event available on them at the time 
 of return ...

Rugby to the rescue! I always wanted general multiplexing architecture 
being part of REBOL natively, but then I also wanted simplicity of 
Rugby. Now I will get both? :-)

Ah, thanks for the info, I'll check the parsing rules used (that's 
a real PIA to get it right *and* secure). For the speed concern, 
a PARSE-based solution shouldn't be much slower than a C parser.

yes, I imagine http to get fully officially right is a major pain

Graham: merging both smtp servers codebase could be a good option 
and a way for Cheyenne to get 7-bit SMTP server support (which it 
is lacking currently, so classified as still "experimental").

17/12-2:59:31.9210-[HTTPd] Method: GET - resource: /show.cgi
17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] New client: 127.0.0.1 - 9799
17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] Calling >on-new-client<

17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] << Port: 1723, low-level writing: 896
17/12-2:59:36.1090-[uniserve] Calling >on-write-done<

17/12-2:59:36.1250-[uniserve] >> Port: 1723, low-level reading: 13

17/12-2:59:36.1250-[uniserve] Calling >on-received< with {^@^@^@^-}

17/12-2:59:36.1400-[uniserve] Calling >on-received< with "[ok none]"

17/12-2:59:36.1400-## Error in [uniserve] : On-received call failed 
with error: make object! [
    code: 303
    type: 'script
    id: 'expect-arg
    arg1: 'copy
    arg2: 'value
    arg3: [series! port! bitset!]
    near: [either "HTTP" = copy/part data]
    where: 'on-task-done
] !
17/12-2:59:36.1710-[uniserve] Port closed : 127.0.0.1
17/12-2:59:31.9210-[HTTPd] Method: GET - resource: /show.cgi
17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] New client: 127.0.0.1 - 9799
17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] Calling >on-new-client<

17/12-2:59:36.0930-[uniserve] << Port: 1723, low-level writing: 896
17/12-2:59:36.1090-[uniserve] Calling >on-write-done<

17/12-2:59:36.1250-[uniserve] >> Port: 1723, low-level reading: 13

17/12-2:59:36.1250-[uniserve] Calling >on-received< with {^@^@^@^-}

17/12-2:59:36.1400-[uniserve] Calling >on-received< with "[ok none]"

17/12-2:59:36.1400-## Error in [uniserve] : On-received call failed 
with error: make object! [
    code: 303
    type: 'script
    id: 'expect-arg
    arg1: 'copy
    arg2: 'value
    arg3: [series! port! bitset!]
    near: [either "HTTP" = copy/part data]
    where: 'on-task-done
] !
17/12-2:59:36.1710-[uniserve] Port closed : 127.0.0.1

I only get one picture of you and then it freezes and dies. With 
QT you will get on buffering and play a little then it will back 
to buffering...

other than that, the streaming cannot get any better unless you really 
have very good BW

(just dumping out some past mistakes so none get repeated...;-)

plan for Rome sounds really attractive, although in my case there 
are several factors - how to get to Italy (probably by car, but I 
can't travell myself that far a way ...) and money - I invested into 
Xidys and now I am short for money :-)

The title doesn't state "advantage of open-sourcing Rebol", the presentation 
will about if it's mandatory to get commercial success.

ah, that could be interesting. You have some experience in that area? 
That is really a good question - "how to get rebol succesfull"? Today 
I posted another links to article talking about Ruby (Rails) and 
such arctile mentions Python, PHP, Perl, but noone ever mentions 
Rebol - I wonder why ... - so - good topic!

petr: if you share the room (they're all double rooms) it's €90 for 
two nights. and by car it can cost you more than €50 (unless you 
share too). but, i guess in your case it's just much cheaper to get 
directly in milan.

Gabriele, if and when you get the technical details for a webcast, 
let me know. My family has 2 vacations planned and so I won't be 
able to make it. : ^(

UMTS: Gab, can you check out if it's possible to get test-UMTS-cards. 
Sometimes this is possible for some days ;-))

I would like to see following topic covered - Rebol deployment - 
how to link rebol into other environments - library wrappers, callbacks, 
what would language extensions bring us etc. Such session would have 
to be done by Rebol experienced programmer, who eventually will be 
able to get some supporting info from RT about what is planned. So 
- DevCon05 is near, plans changed - 1.3, SDK priority etc, but NONE 
of last DevCon stuff appeared. I would like to hear how long will 
we wait for already announced stuff like ReBIN, RIF, async, LNS, 
etc.

Please remember that you must register before July 31st if you want 
to get hotel reservations with your registration.

Maxim: i think it's easier to cancel a hotel reservation than it 
is to try to get it on september. anyway, after 31st you can still 
register for the devcon but you're on your own with the hotel reservations 
(we can still try to help you, but no guarantees)

[Just sent confirmation emails to whoever has registered. Sorry for 
not doing that earlier. If you have registered and haven't get a 
confirmation (either via email or here from me directly), please 
register again.]

Any idea how I can get rid of the "Do you want to save changes" dialog 
when I close an XLS workbook?

first to note - I was very positively surprised by the timeframe. 
And if RT wants to concentrate upon it, it means that we will get 
some alphas for testing and we will once again see - "release early, 
release often" (or how's the saying :-) type of development - which 
I always liked, because it means active participation by the community 
...

but now I have another question to brainstorm - I wanted to popularise 
rebol a bit on OSNews.com - they are very open and their site is 
being visited some 100K hits a month. I wanted to post View 1.3.2. 
news, but asked for advice here on AltME, as OS-X port may not be 
ready for public adoption. On the other hand, other products get 
posted even with much smaller updates. So the question is - should 
we post REBOL 3.0 news? Some may say - pots, once there is some product 
to download. But - REBOL 3.0 is also about documentation, and the 
announcement Carl posted asks also for C coders and other kind of 
help. As a side note, we could point ppl to try View 1.3.2 - at least 
Windows and Linux users could be attracted. What do others think? 
Should we wait further? But that way we will not get any publicity 
ever ....

I'd love to see a kind of a developers summit happen as RT gets ready 
to attack each part of REBOL 3.0 they should host an online meeting 
for several hours or even all day if that's possible so that we can 
all get together here on AltME or some online conferencing software. 
 That way all the developers will have a chance to let RT know about 
their wants/needs as they develop each peice of REBOL 3.0.

This probably belongs to Tech news channel, but - SkyOS got new rendering, 
buffered, which much improved performance. It was done by one man 
in a short period of time. I do hope we get more advanced compositing 
for new View too :-) http://www.skyos.org/?q=node/508

i'm inpatient to see it  ^^ and to get a ride on the new C DLL framework 
it ill include

CLOSURE may come in the group with FUNCTION, if it get 3 blocks as 
arguments, so I may not use it.

Ladislav - I will read it tomorrow, as now I go to sleep - travelling 
to Prague tomorrow, so I better get some sleep ... but I do remember 
there were other goodies, which even I understood. Not sure now, 
if it was 'default ... I need to go via your materials once again 
...

the problem is not with incompatibilities but with the speed, Carl 
is afraid, that the speed difference will be too big to get rid of 
FUNC

values defined as default arguments are just like /local variables 
in rebol, they are only defined once and persist from one function 
call to another.  thus blocks get re-used.  We get used to this in 
rebol and do our own copy []   and   return first reduce [val val:none]

maybe 2 cent of mine:

to me it looks pretty confusing, reading all the above - if I get 
the intention right I would separate it like this

1) how to (or do we want) initialization - no matter if with closures 
or just normal rebol funcs

2) how will closures be in rebol3, by default (breaks a lot as Ladislav 
told) or not
3) the static thing Ladislav began with

@ 1) 

- to me this doesn't belong to the whole closure discussion (if it 
deeply does I don't get right now why) 

- one possibility would be to add an refinement to func or closure 
also - no? - makes the order of the optional third block a bit awkward, 
but on the other side that's what refinements are for - no ?

@ 2)

- we should have closures and propagate them as the default version 
for normal people or newcomers if rebol3 is out - they are safer 
IMO and don't make too much trouble with unexpected effects, especially 
for people from other languages (especially from the current dynamic 
kind)
- so closure should be separate

- with hopefully more asynch behavior by default build in, in rebol3, 
closures are anyway a must 

- if somebody got the concept of normal funcs - people can use it 
for speed reasons easily

- from Gabriele or Ladislav (or somebody else) it sounded a bit like 
one of the thoughts around closures involved the binding capabilities 
- I don't overlook this right now, but it still would be possible 
to change funcs like today, wouldn't it ? I mean there might be something 
like changing a function or rebinding it's body (or parts of it) 
can cause problems if local vars of a closure should be protected 
by this - on the other side who would do this, who doesn't know what 
he does ?


@ 3) maybe some of the static capabilities would be nice to have 
for closures then too, don't know - right now it's easy to build 
- how would it be done (in the language) with closures ?

And just some questions:

what function attributes will be added ? and what will they do, what 
purpose for .... :-)

will they be kind of dynamic or user extendable - so that own attributes 
could be defined - even if not too useful with rebol in some sense 
(or maybe it is - i'm not sure) - so some design by contract could 
be added without hacks for some needs (just mean it as an example)

will function get more similar to objects/contexts (or the other 
way around) - I mean that the concepts get closer ?

I mean the examples from Ladislav when you use some of the capabilities 
of Rebol and get hit by not copying the context

max, refinements are logic (none or true), they don't get a value

but the block also get ambiguous, as gregg pointed out, trying to 
set a default value of datatype gets pretty unobvious... and even 
quirky.

a lot of code would get a few lines trimmed

square: func [x [decimal! (x > 0) complex!]][x * x]


will be very difficult to get it right if other things should be 
allowed later :-/

I thought it looked quite nice, but if you think about more elaborate 
guards it might get fast confusing - e.g. would be nice to define 
a guard for a return value or an general condition to be met not 
regarding the arguments ..... but having an interesting dialect there 
would be nice IMO

Would be nice, for tidyness, if R3 had some place to release resources 
before the app closes. As far as I know the only place currently 
is the close event of a port because ports get closed when REBOL 
quits.  Would be good to have something more purpose made. For example, 
Delphi offers a "finally" clause companion to Try and also a unit 
level "finalization" clause - guaranteed to run when closing down. 
Delphi is compiled, so don't know if REBOL can offer similar.

My hospital was recently acquired by a private company. Today we 
got the order that the new direction is MS .Net and only this.
Are there any chances to get Rebol3 running under .Net?

I remember A.J.Martin proposing that already and maybe Terry moaning 
too.
Anyone else interested in that?

my long time proposal was to get Rebol running under other virtual 
machines, as those became de-facto platforms - Java, Tao, .Net .... 
the question always is, how fast would rebol be then ....

pekr, didn't he say it would get one for Wildman?

get-paths

anton, it's a problem currently with a function used in many places 
and you get an error inside the function (wrong value as argument). 
you can't see anything outside the function or what called it. perhaps 
the stack trace will help that, but still...

i can get carl here for a few questions if you want?

I hope sessions get recorded ...

Got to get him experimenting with Cheyenne  :)

Dig in lads...get into the wiki...

Everybody else...Only a few more scripts to get to a nice prime 797...poke 
poke

Sorry, was there any timeline on when we get our grubby little hands 
on R3?

that was not my question :-) The thing is, that when you launch 100 
thread for one process, you get just 1 time for your process, which 
you will divide to those 100 REBOL tasks = threads internally.

imo those 5 separate processes get more time from OS ...

did not get my iTV yet so had to open about 40 stream to fill all 
the 60 inches monitor in the room

A suggestion.....Various people have asked questions here, some have 
been passed on or answered, Others have got lost in the chatter.
Why not some set up a DevCon Questions page here:
http://devcon2007.on-arran.com/
People can then add their questions, and they won't get lost.

I certainly haven't lost sight of the desktop. I think the way forward 
is to improve the viewtop and then get it into the web plugin.

Reichart.. i like to pass documentation to our product/mareketing 
department.. where can i get it?

Graham, for my side, I still plan to support beer, I get the framework, 
and see the advantages.  We need our full API in place first.

Can someone try and get the camera to work in the lunch break guys???

great .. now we get to see the sun pass over !  :)

I should get one of those remote IP cameras with pan and zoom

Windsurfing... yeah, would be great. I hope you have strong winds. 
My sinker now needs 10 to get me out of the water :-)

beach front properties ... might get swamped

reichart: [help-:-qtask-:-com] is the right way to get more info on qtask/Quilt 
?

I might be able to get it to $60 or so.

they get into defining how quantum mechanics, fit into rebol and 
relavance... so they both are complementary  :-D

Imagine companie's Document management system, based upon that. Or 
CRM. You query company, and get linked all relevant emails, scanned 
faxes, documents as invoices, orders, whatever, cross linked ...

so there might be a way to get relavance and RT as the engine, and 
elixir as the desktop  :-)