AltME groups: search

About the native GUI option (using only what the OS provides), I'm 
pretty confident that the minimum common should be enough to cover 
most needs for business apps, I will do a prototype for the Red IDE. 
Having a free drawing x-platform canvas, for games and non-native 
GUI would also be needed, SDL seems to be the best backend for that 
AFAIK (that gives us also OpenGL for free).

..but you did...?

 - people do crosswords, sudoko and play mindless computer games too.

I guess I will just spend the rest of the day doing something useful, 
like coding, instead of having to play mind games with you. ;-)

Curious too about time frames for file access, network protocols, 
2D drawing API, sound, etc.  Are those things on the horizon yet? 
 Looking forward to when you can port higher level things like mysql 
dialect, games demos, etc.

I agree with Henrik 90%. The hard part is picking the target app 
and important elements. A game, or modern app with animation elements 
is a very different target than an "efficiency above all" business 
app. One of my failed attempts with REBOL was to get Carl, for just 
this reason, to identify a target audience. It guides your design. 


In the case of a Red/REBOL GUI, maybe there is no single design or 
dialect. Making small apps simple is hard to match to the needs of 
complex apps. If you're writing database/CRUD apps, wouldn't it be 
great to have a toolset designed just for that? That same toolset 
won't work well for games though.


I think using an IDE as the first target app is a *fantastic* idea. 
It covers a lot of areas, including the possibility of building on 
an extensible app framework (something lighter than Eclipse :-), 
files, documents, workflow, tool integration, customization, and 
many UI elements. And *we*, developers, are the target audience.

Thank you, I found it a fun puzzle too when I found some of them 
in a summer logic puzzle book. I then found a puzzle collection with 
most of the puzzle games (Simon Tatham's portable puzzle collection) 
except this one so I built one myself using Java. One of the first 
puzzles I had to solve I solved with 6 mirrors but you have to solve 
it using 7. It was quite a puzzle to me thought I made an error somewhere 
but luckily I solved it!

Would it make sense to for a start, have a non-native GUI running 
on top of OpenGL? This is what you see from a bunch of different 
groups out there - e.g. using Lua (Corona, Gideros, Muai), Python 
(Kivy), Haxe, etc. This could maybe be done more quickly since I 
think there's already been some experimenting with OpenGL by Maxim, 
and others (Cyphre?). I guess taking this route would depend on how 
much work it would be to make Draw run over OpenGL, but it would 
open the door to a certain class of apps (games, graphics)..

Is it possible to check on keyboard key-pressed and key-released 
events, like you can with mouse-button down and up? I need that for 
e.g. movement in games.

I believe in Carl's vision "REBOL is perfect for lightweight distributed 
applications". Users need light-weight responsive gui clients that 
can work both online and offline. The evolution of the Web is moving 
(slowly) in this direction, with AJAX/Flash/JavaFX as examples of 
a more responsive and rich gui clients, BUT it's too complex and 
unreliable. The industry is adding kludge upon kludge to "fix" the 
problems resulting in further complexity and code bloat, but what 
is needed is a clean approach that captures the essence of what made 
the web a phenomal success in the first place - any body could set 
up/develop a web site and they did. Enterprise data centers need 
scalable, reliable, manageable (server) applications that run 24x7 
on commodity hardware ata reasonable price. The user PC's should 
require zero management for the applications, which is the primary 
(only?) attraction of the web ui. Question if the application is 
simple to manage and delivers the functionality the user wants, why 
do they need a fat complex os? As an example my kids get online to 
play games, research homework, etc. and they hate it (so do I) when 
the PC/OS gets in the way. Also, that PC/OS is a major source of 
 trouble with viruses and lack of (simple) control to what my kids 
can access.

I think, it is a plus to know functional programming. And if the 
programmer is used to do more than one thing in each line/statement, 
that will help also, when learning REBOL. Things like:

insert back tail serie somefunc + 1


is often seen in REBOL. Experience with scripting languages is probably 
also a plus. I too had a background on the Amiga, staring in 1987 
with an A500. In the 90'ies I started to explore the operating system 
more closely, and then it was natural to check out, what Carl was 
up to. Prior to REBOL, I've programmed in many languages incl. C, 
C++, 6502 ASM, PASCAL, COBOL, LOGO and sh and csh scripting. I develop 
many different things with REBOL from graphical applications, games 
and astronomical applications to tools, languages, databases, xml-stuff, 
word processor, etc. It's very few things, I would choose another 
language than REBOL to do.

There are also some releases of new stuff. For example, Simple Directmedia 
Layer (SDL) is now ported to Syllable. This opens the door to porting 
many games and other multimedia applications that are written on 
top of SDL

Because what I expect from usable OS is: browser, communication tool 
(IRC, ICQ, ...), audio software, some office suite (it's needed sometimes), 
REBOL and some games (or UAE ;). That's what I'm using 99% of time.

We're on the virge of having reasonable browser, email, chat and 
SDL games. I believe UAE is a priority for our project leader. :-)

50mb and includes.. 


XMMS (MP3, CD Music, and MPEG), FTP client, Dillo web browser, links 
web browser, FireFox, spreadsheet, Sylpheed email, spellcheck (US 
English), a word-processor (FLwriter), three editors (Beaver, Vim, 
and Nano [Pico clone]), graphics editing and viewing (Xpaint, and 
xzgv), Xpdf (PDF Viewer), emelFM (file manager), Naim (AIM, ICQ, 
IRC), VNCviwer, Rdesktop, SSH/SCP server and client, DHCP client, 
PPP, PPPoE (ADSL), a web server, calculator, generic and GhostScript 
printer support, NFS, Fluxbox window manager, games, system monitoring 
apps, a host of command line tools, USB support, and pcmcia support, 
some wireless support.

my linux troubles (this is longer)


I'm pretty frustrated at this moment, maybe somebody can help me...


I'm linux newbie, I'm using it for 6 months or so. I've installed 
Ubuntu for my girlfriend and it works OK. So I decided to install 
linux for me too. I've got Athlon X64 computer, so I tried 64bit 
version of Ubuntu. But you cannot run 32bit programs under 64bit 
Linux, so no REBOL or AltMe. OK, I can live with 32bit linux, no 
problem. So I installed MEPIS. It's not bad, it has got media support 
but...it's KDE.


I never knew anything about KDE vs. Gnome vs. whatever wars, I just 
don't care, but day after day I found KDE to be bloated, slow and 
buggy. Compared to elegance of Ubuntu on my girfriend's computer 
I decided that I just don't like KDE, I don't like all that menus 
where I'm always lost, long loading times, that awful blue theme, 
childish icons and everything K-labeled. Every window and every button 
on KDE looks so BIG compared to windows GUI, it's just a waste of 
screens's space. So I tried different window managers and found Xfce, 
icebox and some other small and fast window managers. But running 
MEPIS with different window manager than KDE was not optimal so I 
decided to remove MEPIS and install xubuntu. Everything was OK and 
I had xubuntu instaled.


One day later I managed to exchange my gfx card. I was using Matrox 
Millenium 2MB PCI card and exchanged it for 3D labs Banshee 16MB 
PCI card (I know that both cards are somehow underpowered for my 
computer but that's OK, I don't play any 3d games, so I don't need 
some new card). I've booted into Windows and everything was OK. I 
can even select resolution better than 1024x768 (because that's not 
optimal resolution for 21" monitor :-) So I restarted and booted 
into xubuntu. x-server didn't start. 


As I said, I'm linux newbie so I don't want to mess with some config 
files so I said to myself OK, I reinstall it, it's just one day old 
installation, no problem. I've booted the live-cd, grub let me choose 
resolution of 1280x1024, I booted xubuntu and - it was running in 
640x480. Yes, I had the choice to change resolution - but only to 
320x240. I tried ubuntu (gnome) and it was the same. ubuntu's x-server 
probably does not support my banshee gfx card. I tried MEPIS also 
and - it worked! I can boot mepis 3.3.1 live cd in 1024x768 (but 
not more - with windows, I can go up to 1920x1440). But when I boot 
mepis, I do see that KDE desktop thing and it makes me feel sick 
(hell, even windows seem to be more fun to use than KDE for me!).


So, what now? I cannot use windows only (1. i don't like it :) 2. 
it's got problems of its own - it cannot download files bigger than 
cca 1MB without error. Probably some driver problem but I still haven't 
found a sollution. this is not problem on linux) and I don't like 
KDE. I know that there's one sollution - to buy relatively new pci-x 
n-vidia gfx card and problems may be gone. but that's not what I 
want to do. That 3dfx banshee is good enough for me, I just want 
some fast and small OS running on it.


Maybe I'm just missing a computer that can boot in 15 seconds into 
full GUI enviroment (yes, my old Amiga :)

And, I agree with btiffin - the Linux desktop is getting there, slowly 
but surely.  Especially Ubuntu, which my *mom* wants me to install 
when she gets her laptop, after having checked out mine a couple 
of times.  I only use Windows for video games that don't run well 
under WINE.

enterprise versus joe sixpack is a big problem. I can understand 
the enterprise model to get into the Fortune 500 but then they have 
to have the joe model for the workers/users. For the Linix office 
worker, a browser/oo/few games/email/ is about all they need at work. 
At home add more games/Gimp/irc/torrent client/media apps and most 
will be happy. It's true those distros are out there but for joe 
sixpack, they are hard to find and most joes only know the big Linux 
names

And the developers are gamers too, so the list of supported apps 
usually starts with games, then works down through the other applications.

What may happen, is people (kids for example) would begin hacking 
old Basic applications rewritten in Rebol, to show off.

100 lines of Basic becoming 7 lines of Rebol for example.


There is a group of people hacking Nintendo emulators with a program 
that emulates the joystick, and attempt to play games in the shortest 
time possible.  It is very interesting, but why these types of things 
take off is that people can have fun, and without too much knowledge, 
show off their talents.

A z-machine interpreter could be fun - plenty of infocom games to 
play. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-machine

I definitely prefer all the info being visible on the page.

Expecting people to play hide and seek is good in games and some 
styles of websites. But if you are trying to make your site (and 
therefore your company's information) easily available, then don't 
hide links in any way.

what you want is REBOL/Games that directly ties to DirectX... :P 
not sure if we'll ever see something like that (i'd like it for sure)

getting keys instead of characters means a lot of new work to do, 
and i don't see much reason for rebol to do so, except for games. 
but, games will need much more than that!

Here is the snipped of XMl:   <?xml version="1.0"?>

<xts:sports-content-set xmlns:xts="http://www.xmlteam.com"query-date-time="20090724T011802-0400" 
query-string="http://fod.xmlteam.com/api-trial/getDocuments?doc-ids=xt.9140271-box"
hostname="fod.xmlteam.com" result-count="1" error-count="0" elapsed-time="64.2ms"><sports-content 
xmlns:str="java.lang.String" xmlns:dt="http://xsltsl.org/date-time"
xmlns:xts="http://www.xmlteam.com"xmlns:exsl="http://exslt.org/common"
path-id="baseball/l.mlb.com/event-summary/xt.9140271-box" xts:systemid="MLB_Boxscore_XML" 
xts:tsnid="9140271">

  <sports-metadata xmlns:fs="java.io.File" date-time="20090323T193000-0400" 
  doc-id="xt.9140271-box" xts:tsnslug="AAX%BOX-LOS-ANA" language="en-US" 
  revision-id="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882-event-stats-sportsnetwork.com" 
  fixture-key="event-stats" document-class="event-summary" fixture-name="Box 
  Score">

    <sports-title>Boxscore: LA Angels vs. Los Angeles</sports-title>
    <sports-content-codes>

      <sports-content-code code-name="The Sports Network" code-key="sportsnetwork.com" 
      code-type="publisher"/>

      <sports-content-code code-name="XML Team Solutions, Inc." code-key="xmlteam.com" 
      code-type="distributor"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="sport" code-key="15007000" code-name="Baseball"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="league" code-key="l.mlb.com" code-name="Major 
      League Baseball"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="season-type" code-key="pre-season"/>
      <sports-content-code code-type="season" code-key="2009"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="priority" code-key="normal"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="conference" code-key="c.national" 
      code-name="National"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="conference" code-key="c.american" 
      code-name="American"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="team" code-key="l.mlb.com-t.11" code-name="Los 
      Angeles Angels"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="team" code-key="l.mlb.com-t.28" code-name="Los 
      Angeles Dodgers"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="action-listing" code-key="complete"/>
    </sports-content-codes>
  </sports-metadata>
  <sports-event xmlns:fs="java.io.File">

    <event-metadata xmlns:xte="www.xmlteam.com/xte" date-coverage-type="event" 
    event-key="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882" date-coverage-value="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882" 
    event-status="post-event" duration="2:58" start-date-time="20090323T160500-0400" 
    xts:game-of-day="1">
      <sports-content-codes/>
      <event-metadata-baseball/>
      <site>
        <site-metadata>
          <home-location/>
        </site-metadata>
        <site-stats attendance="8704"/>
      </site>
    </event-metadata>
    <team>
      <team-metadata team-key="l.mlb.com-t.28" alignment="away">
        <name first="Los Angeles" last="Dodgers"/>
      </team-metadata>

      <team-stats score="4" score-opposing="10" event-outcome="loss">
        <sub-score period-value="1" score="1"/>
        <sub-score period-value="2" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="3" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="4" score="3"/>
        <sub-score period-value="5" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="6" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="7" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="8" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="9" score="0"/>
        <team-stats-baseball>

          <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="4" at-bats="36" hits="9" rbi="4" 
          bases-on-balls="2" strikeouts="4" doubles="0" triples="0" home-runs="0" 
          grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="1" 
          stolen-bases="1" stolen-bases-caught="1" hit-by-pitch="0" left-on-base="7"/>

          <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>

          <stats-baseball-pitching runs-allowed="10" hits="13" earned-runs="10" 
          bases-on-balls="6" strikeouts="8" era="10.000" balks="0" errors-wild-pitch="0" 
          number-of-pitches="0" number-of-strikes="0" shutouts="0" games-complete="0" 
          wins="0" losses="1"/>
        </team-stats-baseball>
      </team-stats>
      <player id="b.11965">

        <player-metadata position-event="8" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.11965" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Matt" last="Kemp"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="4" hits="1" rbi="2" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="1" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="1" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".271"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>

I<?xml version="1.0"?>

<xts:sports-content-set xmlns:xts="http://www.xmlteam.com"query-date-time="20090724T011802-0400" 
query-string="http://fod.xmlteam.com/api-trial/getDocuments?doc-ids=xt.9140271-box"
hostname="fod.xmlteam.com" result-count="1" error-count="0" elapsed-time="64.2ms"><sports-content 
xmlns:str="java.lang.String" xmlns:dt="http://xsltsl.org/date-time"
xmlns:xts="http://www.xmlteam.com"xmlns:exsl="http://exslt.org/common"
path-id="baseball/l.mlb.com/event-summary/xt.9140271-box" xts:systemid="MLB_Boxscore_XML" 
xts:tsnid="9140271">

  <sports-metadata xmlns:fs="java.io.File" date-time="20090323T193000-0400" 
  doc-id="xt.9140271-box" xts:tsnslug="AAX%BOX-LOS-ANA" language="en-US" 
  revision-id="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882-event-stats-sportsnetwork.com" 
  fixture-key="event-stats" document-class="event-summary" fixture-name="Box 
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    <sports-title>Boxscore: LA Angels vs. Los Angeles</sports-title>
    <sports-content-codes>

      <sports-content-code code-name="The Sports Network" code-key="sportsnetwork.com" 
      code-type="publisher"/>

      <sports-content-code code-name="XML Team Solutions, Inc." code-key="xmlteam.com" 
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      <sports-content-code code-type="sport" code-key="15007000" code-name="Baseball"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="league" code-key="l.mlb.com" code-name="Major 
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      <sports-content-code code-type="season-type" code-key="pre-season"/>
      <sports-content-code code-type="season" code-key="2009"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="priority" code-key="normal"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="conference" code-key="c.national" 
      code-name="National"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="conference" code-key="c.american" 
      code-name="American"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="team" code-key="l.mlb.com-t.11" code-name="Los 
      Angeles Angels"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="team" code-key="l.mlb.com-t.28" code-name="Los 
      Angeles Dodgers"/>

      <sports-content-code code-type="action-listing" code-key="complete"/>
    </sports-content-codes>
  </sports-metadata>
  <sports-event xmlns:fs="java.io.File">

    <event-metadata xmlns:xte="www.xmlteam.com/xte" date-coverage-type="event" 
    event-key="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882" date-coverage-value="l.mlb.com-2009-e.26882" 
    event-status="post-event" duration="2:58" start-date-time="20090323T160500-0400" 
    xts:game-of-day="1">
      <sports-content-codes/>
      <event-metadata-baseball/>
      <site>
        <site-metadata>
          <home-location/>
        </site-metadata>
        <site-stats attendance="8704"/>
      </site>
    </event-metadata>
    <team>
      <team-metadata team-key="l.mlb.com-t.28" alignment="away">
        <name first="Los Angeles" last="Dodgers"/>
      </team-metadata>

      <team-stats score="4" score-opposing="10" event-outcome="loss">
        <sub-score period-value="1" score="1"/>
        <sub-score period-value="2" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="3" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="4" score="3"/>
        <sub-score period-value="5" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="6" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="7" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="8" score="0"/>
        <sub-score period-value="9" score="0"/>
        <team-stats-baseball>

          <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="4" at-bats="36" hits="9" rbi="4" 
          bases-on-balls="2" strikeouts="4" doubles="0" triples="0" home-runs="0" 
          grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="1" 
          stolen-bases="1" stolen-bases-caught="1" hit-by-pitch="0" left-on-base="7"/>

          <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>

          <stats-baseball-pitching runs-allowed="10" hits="13" earned-runs="10" 
          bases-on-balls="6" strikeouts="8" era="10.000" balks="0" errors-wild-pitch="0" 
          number-of-pitches="0" number-of-strikes="0" shutouts="0" games-complete="0" 
          wins="0" losses="1"/>
        </team-stats-baseball>
      </team-stats>
      <player id="b.11965">

        <player-metadata position-event="8" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.11965" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Matt" last="Kemp"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="4" hits="1" rbi="2" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="1" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="1" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".271"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.7103">

        <player-metadata position-event="8" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.7103" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="Jason" last="Repko"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="1" hits="0" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".219"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.9917">

        <player-metadata position-event="9" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.9917" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Andre" last="Ethier"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="3" hits="2" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="1" strikeouts="0" singles="2" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".204"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.6892">

        <player-metadata position-event="pr,7" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.6892" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="John-Ford" last="Griffin"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="1" hits="0" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="1" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".000"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.3810">

        <player-metadata position-event="dh" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.3810" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Manny" last="Ramirez"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="3" hits="0" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="2" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="1" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".200"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.9776">

        <player-metadata position-event="ph,dh" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.9776" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="A.J." last="Ellis"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="1" hits="1" rbi="0" 
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            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="1" hits="0" rbi="1" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".550"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.6012">

        <player-metadata position-event="dh" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.6012" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Juan" last="Rivera"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="2" hits="1" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="1" singles="0" doubles="1" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".211"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.5647">

        <player-metadata position-event="ph,dh" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.5647" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="Gary" last="Matthews"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="0" at-bats="1" hits="0" rbi="0" 
            bases-on-balls="1" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".357"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.6928">

        <player-metadata position-event="2" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.6928" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Jeff" last="Mathis"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="2" hits="1" rbi="1" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="1" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".343"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.6814">

        <player-metadata position-event="ph,6" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.6814" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="Maicer" last="Izturis"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="1" hits="1" rbi="1" 
            bases-on-balls="1" strikeouts="0" singles="1" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="0" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".278"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.8016">

        <player-metadata position-event="6" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.8016" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Erick" last="Aybar"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="2" at-bats="2" hits="2" rbi="2" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="1" triples="0" 
            home-runs="1" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".310"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="1" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="b.6589">

        <player-metadata position-event="ph,7" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.6589" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="Robb" last="Quinlan"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-offensive runs-scored="1" at-bats="2" hits="1" rbi="2" 
            bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="0" singles="0" doubles="0" triples="0" 
            home-runs="1" grand-slams="0" sac-flies="0" sacrifices="0" grounded-into-double-play="0" 
            stolen-bases="0" stolen-bases-caught="0" hit-by-pitch="0" average=".310"/>

            <stats-baseball-defensive errors="0" errors-passed-ball="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="p.7092">

        <player-metadata position-event="1" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.7092" 
        status="starter">
          <name first="Dustin" last="Moseley"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-pitching runs-allowed="4" innings-pitched="6" hits="8" 
            earned-runs="3" bases-on-balls="1" strikeouts="3" era="3.15" balks="0" 
            shutouts="0" errors-wild-pitch="0" number-of-pitches="0" number-of-strikes="0" 
            wins="1" losses="0" saves-blown="0" saves="0" event-credit="win" 
            xts:wins-season="3" xts:losses-season="0" xts:saves-season="0" xts:saves-blown-season="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="p.20390">

        <player-metadata position-event="1" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.20390" 
        status="bench">
          <name first="Trevor" last="Reckling"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-pitching runs-allowed="0" innings-pitched="2" hits="1" 
            earned-runs="0" bases-on-balls="1" strikeouts="0" era="0.00" balks="0" 
            shutouts="0" errors-wild-pitch="0" number-of-pitches="0" number-of-strikes="0" 
            wins="0" losses="0" saves-blown="0" saves="0" xts:wins-season="0" 
            xts:losses-season="0" xts:saves-season="0" xts:saves-blown-season="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
      <player id="p.20370">

        <player-metadata position-event="1" player-key="l.mlb.com-p.20370" 
        status="finished">
          <name first="Mason" last="Tobin"/>
        </player-metadata>
        <player-stats>
          <player-stats-baseball>

            <stats-baseball-pitching runs-allowed="0" innings-pitched="1" hits="0" 
            earned-runs="0" bases-on-balls="0" strikeouts="1" era="0.00" balks="0" 
            shutouts="0" errors-wild-pitch="0" number-of-pitches="0" number-of-strikes="0" 
            wins="0" losses="0" saves-blown="0" saves="0" xts:wins-season="0" 
            xts:losses-season="0" xts:saves-season="0" xts:saves-blown-season="0"/>
          </player-stats-baseball>
        </player-stats>
      </player>
    </team>
    <officials>
      <official>
        <official-metadata position="Home Plate Umpire">
          <name full="Jim Wolf"/>
        </official-metadata>
      </official>
      <official>
        <official-metadata position="First Base Umpire">
          <name full="Bob Davidson"/>
        </official-metadata>
      </official>
      <official>
        <official-metadata position="Second Base Umpire">
          <name full="Mike Winters"/>
        </official-metadata>
      </official>
      <official>
        <official-metadata position="Third Base Umpire">
          <name full="Mike Everitt"/>
        </official-metadata>
      </official>
    </officials>
    <event-actions>
      <event-actions-baseball/>
    </event-actions>
    <highlight class="double-plays">
      <p>Los Angeles 2; LA Angels 1.</p>
    </highlight>
  </sports-event>
</sports-content></xts:sports-content-set>

I got the data using a free MSX emulator (openMSX). The music come 
from the game "Auf wiedersehen Monty".

You can use a "dump PSG" functionality in openMSX to get the raw 
data (values of the registers of the PSG).

You can find lot of roms (games) for the msx wich contain cool musics 
and effects for the AY PSG on www.planetemu.net

Beware, these roms are not freeware even if you can download them 
freely.


Another way (i have not tried), is to use VortexTracker at http://bulba.at.kz/
(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYdIqcqgkPMfor a demo)

wich is well designed to compose an manipulate raw data for the AY-* 
PSG.
I think many samples are given too.

I know (at least I thought I knew...  :( ) how to set up network 
and routers... I did this hundreds of times, and had problems with 
altme, torrent downloaders, games and many others... and solved them....

I tried to add ftp ports, and even whole range from 0-65535 to NAT 
routing tables.... tried to put whole lan ip range into dmz... Ill 
try tomorrow....

And of course the dialect is not for making animations! Use drawing 
programs to make animations. The dialect is for example to do things 
like to generate games for the tiles game: http://box.lebeda.ws/~hmm/rebol/swf-tiles.r
--- I'm sure you would not like to do it in Macromedia authoring 
tool:)

joe, the mini is not good for games

yeksoon - the PSP (although I don't like it) has a larger screen 
and the same wifi ability - and many of it's games already have web 
browsers

Terry, I think computing is mature enough to have machines for different 
purposes, games machines, media machines and work machines. Most 
households I know have a least two on that list so far and are heading 
for the 3rd. Currently the pendulum is swinging away from "one machine 
to rule them all".

I've been telling people foy years to get a machine for work and 
a machine to trash for games etc.

Because if they call me (as they often do) and say "I've broken my 
only computer by downloading a game and now I can't get it to work 
and I've got to do something important" they get zero sympathy and 
I'm pretty dis-inclined to lend a hand in fixing their crisis.

I'm guilty. But I think below a certain threshold, people tend to 
spend all their available money on the one computer, in order to 
make it as good as possible. That's my reasoning from years ago. 
These days, I feel quite different. I don't feel like playing games 
much anymore and I'm pretty careful installing new software.

For inspiration, Wright looked to the 

demo scene," a group of (mostly European) coders who specialized 
in doing a whole lot with a little bit of code. Their procedural 
programming methods were able to, for example, fit an entire 3D game 
in 64K, using mathematics to generate textures and music, etc. "I 
just found this incredibly exciting," Wright confesses, describing 
the kinds of work that he saw come out of the demo scene."


So here's what he did: he recruited an elite strike team of coders 
(who, if you were to believe his slideshow, dressed like ninjas) 
and put them in a 

hidden facility" to experiment with new ways of giving the user powerful 
tools and generating tons of dynamic content without armies of content 
creators. Best of all, he fired up a demo and showed his audience 
the results... "

this is almost a REBOL like way to create games :-)

I like the bontago here. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Award_Winning_Games

To our physics: Is it possible to build a little physics-engine for 
such things, and how about collision-detection? The 3d from the contest 
could be sufficient for a small version of this.

I'm developing a byte-code style for OpenGL commands, so little communication 
is needed. Only 1 byte for the command (gl, glu and glut commands 
are fewer than 256), and 4 bytes for most parameters. So many commands 
are fewer than 10 bytes of communication. It may not be fast enough 
for games, but I hope, it's fast enough to make tools and fast OpenGL 
prototyping (trying out ideas).

http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=261254<-- XNA makes 
it possible for bedroom programmers to make Windows and XBox 360 
games. Somehow I think it's a very clever way to to let anyone access 
and program such powerful hardware, much smarter than just slapping 
Linux on PS3. Where could REBOL fit in to such a scheme to program 
a piece of hardware like that?

Q: go, find whatever website flash plug-in part of website, press 
right mouse - you will see menu for controlling flash script itself 
... that is what I am talking about -

A: That is a choice of the developers.  The fact that people leave 
it as "default"


Q: Reichart - and you imo overestimate Flash's importance - they 
can be milti-whatever company, yet I would have to see some noticed 
real-life app someone uses in corporate sphere :-)


A: "I" over estimate Flash?  Uh, er….you mean like how Yahoo over 
estimated Flickr (front end is Flash), and bought them?  


Or, while you might not like it, if you are looking at an animated 
ad on the web, there is a good chance it is Flash.  That would be 
a 500 billion dollar industry that is using Flash as their delivery 
mechanism.  That is the app, animated content with games and click 
through.


And if you use T-Mobile, then you are using Flash.  Yup, it "is" 
the interface for their cellphone content provider.



Pekr, I'm not a fan of Flash, or Macromedia…I'm simply stating that 
Rebol should consider Flash's model as a pathway to a clean install 
and plug-in interface.

Maybe, but not games like that. I prefer when it's something that 
needs to be done, but that everybody keeps putting off.

I love that I have forgotten which game system is which...it means 
I'm free of games.

Hi I want to ask what is missing for any of you that tried doing 
games in REBOL.

I am looking a simple games like puzzles and kid games... and well 
rebol seems like the perfect tool for such games... much more than 
flash anyways.

on my list there is better keyboard support, but a part from that, 
have any of you trying to do games ever gotten to a point where you 
give up for this or that?

I rememeber the little puzzle Volker did I think  where you move 
boxes around... There is also Dirk Wayland which seems to have a 
few games...  but that's pretty much it.

I see no reason, why you can't make 3d games using OpenGL together 
with REBOL.  Eve Online is made with Python: http://www.eve-online.com/

I've always assumed that Rebol just wasn't good enough which is why 
we only had demos and no games.

Lots of games on the ML:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-topic-index.r?i=games

Not many games in the Library

This is why Rebol is not a possible game platform for us.  It is 
fine for games roughly like those written for the Apple II.

Rebol is however a GREAT scripting system for games.

Not fair of me to say, that it'll be easy to do games. What I meant 
was, that it will be easier now with REBOL than back then.

I must say, that the original Rebol version of the re-box is from 
Dockimbel (http://softinnov.org/rebol/rebox.shtml) I just took his 
level data and made a little bit more complicated graphics. And the 
avatar and some of the ferniture used is from one of my favorite 
Amiga games - DreamWeb - http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/reviews/221/

Anyway, why somoone would like to do remakes of an old games? We 
have emulators and the old games are available for download without 
problems now, like from this place: http://eager.back2roots.org/A-Z.HTML
If someone want to do a game in Rebol, it should be a new game which 
will use all the features of the network - it should be multiplayer 
online game - imagine Altme, but with avatars going around:-) I'm 
just waiting for R3 where I will be able to use custom fonts, better 
sound and modules  (for example). The problem I see is, that most 
of us here are coders, not graphic artists:(

old games because  of gameplay, which is hard. With network now of 
 course :)

Then i would have  somebody  to play  my weird games with me^^

are there any other suggestions for simple games that people would 
like to see in rebol?

If you don't like it I think there are at least another 7580 games 
you can easily find... ;)

im waiting for R3 until i start on 2 player games - I would like 
to make a gaming lobby where you can launch various simple games 
like backgammon etc

i think altme has wonderful potential as a lobby site - we just need 
to get an altme approved api interface before making games

had 2 extra tiles in the map for some reason.. was causing unfinishable 
games :(

So, let me help you help me (I have designed about 120 video games). 
  You need to break down your art as follows

 name, size, comments

For example

In looking at your image names, I can't map them to "purpose"

What are card and card1?


May I suggest  you rename things first, and a smart move is to put 
in place holder art that is the size you want to finally use.  Even 
if it just has the name of what will be there, ie "Gold" etc.

yeksoon - is your version 0.1.2?  This was a problem with extra turn 
cards in previous games.

Btw, your games reminds me a lot this other online card game : http://www.maganicwars.com
(very good and addictive!)

http://www.kloonigames.com/blog/games/crayon/

Sorry to hear that btiffin, but I find once you grasp the idea behind 
rebtower it is a hoot.  I wish the other player could be a person 
instead of the computer and if I were you I would approach offering 
it to one of those online sites or somewhere they offer internet 
based games and adapt it for such.

Many games operate with Truevision TGA image files, also known as 
TARGA file format. I've made a function to load such a format:
http://www.fys.ku.dk/~niclasen/rebol/libs/gfx/tga.r
Usage:
i: load-tga %some-file.tga
img: i/as-image


img is now a REBOL image! type image, that can be viewed as normal, 
e.g.:
view layout [backdrop black image img]

speaking about games...

this guys (I think its a Singapore based company)

http://www.viwawa.com/


they run their games (Mahjong, Big2 etc) off Amazon's infrastructure 
to help handle the load.

If I were to make games "today" this would be how I would do this.

this guy has a game for windows, mac, linux and wii: http://2dboy.com/games.php

Does anyone know if Ryan Cole's raycasting games are still available 
anywhere? ( previously at http://www.sonic.net/~gaia/games/wanderer/wanderer.r
 and ../see.r )  I've also just begun to look at cyphre's raycasting 
example - is anyone familiar with it?  (in it's default state, it 
crashes).

Second example is direct game engines. I was making some games in 
PTK (it's a c++ library for mac and win) in the past. I wanted to 
use PTK with a higher level language and making a binding to it feels 
like a major pain to me, so after the BlitzMax+Lua experience I simply 
made a simple "engine" with it and embeded enkovm/haxe in it . I 
exposed some functions from c++ side like loadSprite, drawSprite 
and make some call-ins into the nekovm like "draw" and I could already 
code a simple game with it.  So embedding if possible at all of course 
would mean a great strength for rebol in my eyes! I think I once 
noticed that this will be possible in R3 but I couldn't find it later 
and I remember it only vaguely.

rebol would be very interesting  choice for this because it can "do" 
and process it's own code at runtime and it would make for a *dream 
combination* of making games that you can code and edit at runtime 
without restarting!

Nice games: http://www.oneclickdog.com/

finally found a flash game to explain liquid   :-D  

http://www.y8.com/games/Liquid_Measure

http://machinarium.net/demo/has x.mas special.. two games wth 10usd 
..  Not a bad price...

It has been a difficult decision for us because we are big fans of 
Machinarium but we have decided that we will not be moving forward 
with the XBLA version of the game.  One of the main objectives for 
our team as a 1st party publisher is to publish great games that 
are exclusive to Microsoft platforms (Xbox, Games for Windows).  
Currently, there is a significant emphasis on investing our resources 
in games that will be exclusive to Microsoft platforms.  Since Machinarium 
has already is out on other distribution sites it falls out scope 
for what we are trying to do.   
 

I think there is a great potential for us to work together on a future 
title that is exclusive to Microsoft (Xbox Live Arcade and Games 
for Windows).  If you are working on a new concept, please let me 
know and let's see if there is something that we can do together.

I was head of a project 2-3 years ago for the danish team behind 
Unity to port one of their games to a newer version of Unity. I found 
Unity 3D to have many features, but was too clumpsy to really work 
with. It may have changed, as I haven't looked at it since.

The game was GooBall:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/gooball/

ah, that was one of the first games I remember that they were showing 
as showcase of unity .. but I never could find a PC version of it 
to try it

what do you mean by it being clumsy? Did you have exp. with any other 
3d engines at the time? (I was so far only making 2d games, but I 
wasted a lot of time looking and trying various 3d engines)

the R2 event system has severe limitations.  for gaming its almost 
unusable unless you really hack it, and even then, you don't get 
key UP events so its hard to do a lot of types of games.

Stick figure graphics are really popular nowadays if you look at 
some of the top iPhone games :)

Only 10 years? Try waiting for twelve :) It's addictive, I already 
played for about 8 hours I think and I usually put down 99% of games 
after 10 to 20 minutes, even if they are really good. But I want 
to play the Zerg -.- Can't wait for the addon to come out. I hope 
they don't release the Protoss addon first. Did you buy the special 
edition? I thought long and hard about it (90 Euros!!) but then I 
thought, if Blizzard does what they did with World of Warcraft, there 
will be a special edition of every addon too, so you'd have to pay 
nearly 300 Euro all together. So I just bought the standart edition 
and will buy the special edition of the Zerg addon ;)

well, there was a big shift in games about 2-3 years ago.  they where 
holding back because of a lot of older computers... but when vista 
came out  it had DX11 and computer users where forced to upgrade. 
 even those that didn't need to before.

a big step in GFx occured at about the same time, you could actually 
call it a leap.   Hardware shaders, better illuminations and gfx 
ram jumped to be 256MB at minimum on most cards.


but most games of today allow very low settings which allow you to 
work on older machines... I've got a 4 year old 1.5Ghz core duo with 
an old 8600M nvidia card.


and SC2 is quite responsive on it.  though I would like to play with 
a bit more graphics quality... its not the game's fault.  4-5 years 
ago 3D game graphics quality was still pretty deficient.  but with 
any average 100$ card today,  you'll get pretty amazing graphics.

Henrik: I played games on my as cheap as you can get 5 year old single 
core 450 Euro computer just fine, including the newest just released 
games. You don't have to buy a new computer every couple of months, 
you just can't set the graphic settings very high. So in effect, 
when you buy a new computer you are not paying to play new games 
but to play games in better quality. Now after these five years I 
bought another 450 euro computer just two weeks ago, with 4GB RAM, 
4x2,8 Ghz CPU and an Nvidia GT320 with 1GB VRAM, this will work for 
the next 5 years too I believe :)

A.I. games are much more challenging.   we can't turtle anymore. 
 and the labels to the hard levels are very representative...  very 
hard. is well... VERY hard.  I can't even begin to wonder how the 
insane level works out.

Finished it today too, some time this morning. Played the whole damn 
night yesterday, I was shocked when the sun rose :) Yeah the end 
left a lot to be desired but Starcraft 2 is a trilogy, so that was 
to be expected. I only hope Blizzard will really manage to get the 
second game out in just one year. I can't really see that happening. 
It'll probably be 3 or 4 years. Did you get to play all missions? 
My mission counter says 25 of 26 missions completed. Where's the 
26th mission and why wasn't I able to play it? ^^ And if I do count 
by myself I get to 28 completed missions in the mission archive anyhow 
so maybe their mission counter is just one big bug. The missions 
are very short but I'd say it took me between 30 and 50 minutes for 
each mission and with 28 missions + 4 bonus protoss missions, this 
is a whole lot of content. Most games only give you 7 to 12 hours 
of gameplay (some a lot less, some a lot more). Starcraft 2 took 
me over 20 hours to play through. And then you still got challenge 
missions, multiplayer, custom maps Vs A.I, user contributed missions 
thanks to the level editor, etc.

One of the first computer games, I bought, had 25th anniversary.
Memories of Elite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpN_WXUxWx0

We just released one smaller project. It's Flash again, and almost 
no REBOL used this time.. only just a few file manipulations and 
find/replace while moving from AS2 to AS3 code :/
http://amanita-design.net/games/osada.html

Reichart: I'm playing "IGoWin" from David Fotland which has good 
AI (or my "AI" is not good :) ).

It is not an online game but you can test yourself with computer. 
As I heard it plays dan level. 
http://www.smart-games.com/igowin.exe

https://plus.google.com/stream/circles/p7f75634d89318aef

Games API coming soon to G+

... yup, now that I have won a few games, it is offering to sell 
me the upgrade :)

Reichart: computer level stars at 25. kyu, so in first a few games 
it is so easy to win. after several games when your rank is under 
10 it is getting a bit difficult. But if you are a good Go player 
it may not be difficult for you (as I'm not a good one, I stuck at 
2. kyu :) )
But it never offered me an upgrade??

Oh and yes, it is mosly for beginners as its dimension is not 19x19.

Kaj, .... Gab pretty much nailed it.


Endo, .... Indeed, so are you saying you can't beat this go program 
every single time in just a few moves?  I seem to be able to beat 
it every single time almost instantly, which I think was Ladislav's 
point.


I'm just confirming I did not simply find a way to beat it as a sort 
of trick.  I used to design AI for games, so I tend to get around 
it pretty quickly.


If you would like I will send you a video of me plaything this game 
several times.

Reichart: I really want to see to trick :) You can find my email 
address on Altme.

I mostly can guess next moves of the computer, but couldn't find 
a trick to win every game (Well actually I know one, after a game 
finished you can still continue to play, like 2 two players game. 
By that way you can increase your rank.. But this is nothing about 
AI ofcourse.

At the first a few games I can win immediately, but after several 
games (say 10-15 games) then I cannot win easily. After computer 
rank is 2-3 kyu I cannot win at all (as I'm a beginner Go player.)
By the way its help files are also very well to teach the rules.

After computer rank is 2-3 kyu

 the computer rank is never 2 - 3 kyu. The computer "thinks" it is 
 9 kyu, I assume. (but it is not very reliable, either) Anyway, after 
 losing some games the computer "thinks" that you are 2 - 3 kyu (again, 
 not very reliably), and takes for itself some handicap to make the 
 game even.

I don't normally post games, but this is really well done, lives 
in a browser, and does not use Flash http://www.cuttherope.ie/

And it is a cute idea.

May I suggest that:


- Starting with just cold metal - metal is not a single colour.  
You are seeing many colours at all times, and different patches of 
colour everywhere.  You are seeing colours reflected and you need 
a coefficient table to calculate the reflection index.  Copper for 
example would lean heavily towards red.


- Next, heated metals are the same, meaning, not a single colour 
either, but now for a different reason.  But to produce the illusion 
of something burning hotter and hotter will require something that 
is multi-pass, and changing constantly.


In video games to produce the afterburner on a jet we did a few tricks:


- The jet flame itself was made of a cone-like shape (maybe a dozen 
polygons).

- The cone was set with an alpha channel so that the source was close 
to opaque, and the tip was close to translucent.

- A second cone was placed around the first cone, but just slightly 
larger.

- They both undulated at all times.  In other words, the length was 
always changing for both cones independently just slight.  And when 
the jet went faster and slower, they changed from long to flat (with 
the plane itself).

- The textures on the polygons were already a rainbox of colours, 
but as the jet changed what it was doing, the colour pallet was changed. 
 Again, both cones were not always changed at the exact same time.

- Just behind the jet (but depending on your angle of view), several 
filters (polygons that read the bg info and render again) would be 
used to create a small waiver and a refocusing.  The more GPU you 
had, the more of this you could do, and the better the final effect 
would look.

- Lastly, and this is what makes the whole thing amazing in a 3D 
game.  We are always checking the location of bright things, such 
as the sun, or things like the after burner filling your screen. 
 If so, we change the contrast of the whole world, and flare out 
your iris.  In the case of the sun we throw up a lens flare, and 
darken all the ships in the sky.

Even as a 2D problem, you should attach this the same way.

This video I think drives this all home for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHL94qQgl_8&feature=related

Maxim,
do http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/a-star.r


that is my very old script I used for prototyping when developing 
strategy games couple of years ago. It's not optimized as it is just 
prototype before conversion to Java but it kinda works ;)