AltME groups: search

(except for the fact, that REDUCE does not have a /deep refinement)

Ladislav - dunno in that particular case. But I am just sensible 
enough to what others say. I reacted to the fact, that Rebol does 
have side effects. I don't know if it was Erlang or other functional 
language, where they claimed programmers like it, because of no side 
effects = predictable. But maybe it is just the case of documentation, 
but really - many novices just try in console by trial and error 
....

especially when we take into account the fact, that integers will 
be 64-bit

Python uses this "philosophy", except for the fact, that it uses 
bignums instead of decimals

Path evaluation order once again: it looks to me, that the algorithm 
working as follows:

a: 1x2 a/(a: 3x4 1): (a: 5x6 7)
a ; == 7x2


is more than two times faster than the "more natural" one yielding 
a == 7x6. The difference lies in the fact, that the latter algorithm 
needs to rebuild the path before applying it, while the former one 
can "evaluate on the fly", without rebuilding.

actually the error lies in the fact, that many users think, that 
SKIP changes the index of a series. It actually doesn't:

b: "1234"
index? skip b 2 ; == 3
index? b ; == 1

I think this could be really useful. In fact I think I'll RAMBO it. 
:-)

the one thing I find strange comming from carl, is the fact that 
within Amiga, everything was a hook.  so you could very easily re-implement 
everything... and most of the deep internals of  REBOL are pretty 
boxed in... the stuff is still in box... but opening most of these 
secrets is like opening a can of worms...

in useage after all these years  I've come to realize that verifying 
the refinement itself is less usefull than ingnoring the value if 
its none.  one should usually use none as the fact its not a value, 
so therefor just like a default, or something to ignore.


this kind of useage allows one to rethrow  the function (is that 
the proper term?) with very little fuss.  in a way, this becomes 
exactly like option args in other applications,  ex:

myfunc [count /option opt][
	unless (count: count - 1) = 0 [
		if opt [
			print count
		]
		myfunc/option count opt
	]
]

I think R3 is not really delayed... I think the plan has simply changed, 
and this time Carl is finally working at delivering what he promised 
at devcon 2004.  He might have realised that its a little bit more 
work to make something so open... you can't hide the ugly things, 
so I'm pretty sure he is doing a lot of cleaning up...  and we have 
been hearing about the fact that this time, view isnt' being left 
behind...

darn I hate object oriented development... I've come to a point where 
I need multiple inheritence in rebol (which I can hack) but some 
methods overlap and I need both for the object to be compliant... 
again, I can hack most of this ... but the fact that I just came 
to this point reminds me of the down sides of using objects (in any 
language)...

I think deep is in fact default behaviour in R3, because plain copy 
introduces many mistakes for beginners.

ok, thanks a lot ... it is a pity, I don't need it in fact, but found 
that possibility in docs, tried it, and it nicely works for files 
....

Hi there, are there any rebol wrappers or bindings for LDAP stuff? 
Apart from the fact that the ldif format is already very close to 
native rebol syntax, it would be a neat thing to have.

Slight change of subject but here I  am all happy saving/all  and 
loading my objects and then it hits me: Just what is this "serialized" 
data? How is it different (outside of that fact that it's ascii representation 
is different.) I don't know if I need to know to use it but in case 
I'm ever on TV I want to answer it correctly.

if it did that, we'd have hundreds of cases where we'd need extra 
error handling. in fact, R3 produces more cases where it returns 
none, than R2 does. it's just simpler.

If were sure that all the values that it traverses are comptible 
then I agree.  In fact I don't think we need one until it becomes 
known as a problem.

How I came about this is that I was writing a REBOL script that would 
dump out a file of function definitions for all the builtins.  I 
made some symbol browsing rules for a code editor that would pick 
up on function and variable definitions and let me jump around the 
code easily.  So I was using a lot of function names very literally, 
and in fact, as conditions of switch statements.  e.g. switch commandname 
[usage [print "Usage"]]

I'm an EE, so my biases are going to be a certain way.  In fact, 
I try to bring that need for structure and formalism to things that 
are typically thought of as unimportant for having them, e.g. GUI 
code.

interesting. the help states that the target must not be a path and 
that the function can't be used to move files, but if I supply a 
relative path as target as part of the new name, the file is in fact 
moved to the target under the new name. is that intentional?

John;  If you ever get a chance, check out R.   http://www.r-project.org
  It's a statistical analysis language (in the main) and goes to 
great length to ensure a reproducible random sequence on each run. 
  This allows for verification, stable screen shots of sample graphs 
etc.   I like the fact that REBOL has the same feature of "known" 
random numbers across runs, until a forced seeding.


In Quebec, someone figured out the sequence of the provinicial Keno 
game.  He won three times before someone got suspicious.  The lotto 
corp wanted to deny him his prize money.  A judge ruled that if they 
did, they would have to deny and claw back all winnings from everyone. 
 So they paid.  And fumed and puffed out their chest, and then went 
back to school to learn better programming.   :)   Last I heard, 
the guy hasn't cracked the new sequence ... yet.

in fact i remember having to simulate a goto command when i tried 
to develop a Z80 emulator.
i had build a simple engine working like that:
code: [
	[ some code....]
	[ some code...]
	[ some code ... GOTO: 1]	; goto the first line of code
]
GOTO: 0
forever [
	GOTO: GOTO + 1
	do pick code goto
]

in fact they should make it so that  it CAN'T be.

in fact it's depending of the type of the buffer

but in fact, you should execute it several times, results can be 
different

in fact you can see that 16ko buffer would be a better choice (regarding 
to the first column)

in fact it works, it's the infix behavior which doesn't work anymore 
on values
>> do reduce [:+ 1 1]
== 2

In other words how do we not know that the native lit-word? function 
couldn't be modified to in fact report true in this case?

Anton must have read thru this because he narrowed down to the fact 
that I'm talking about what lit-word? returns when passed 'test as 
its argument.

See to me the question comes down to the fact that I wanted a function 
that tells me what the argument was passed to it as not what the 
function recognizes it as.

BrianH: I don't agree. While he is doing really a good work, he also 
completly ruined some stuff. He restructured Carl's docs so that 
they don't make much sense and he intermixed it with Gab's former 
VID docs, not understanding VID3 and VID 3.4 are different things. 
That fact alone is totally confusing ...

hum... internally, strings are null terminated, i don't know the 
use, but it's a fact

In fact i use ALSO in functions to save the use of temporay variables.

Instead of doing  that:
func  [.. /local result][
	....
	result: ... 	;*** compute result
	... do something before returning the result
	:result    ;** return the result
]

I do:

func  [.. /local result][
	....
	 also (compute the result)
	.(do something before returning the result)
]

It saves the declaration of the result local var

ahh cross platform is a moot point for many of us. really... the 
fact that REBOL runs on all platforms is very good.

the fact that OUR apps run on all apps is not needed in many/most 
cases

I only wish, and I'm surprised you are not appreciative of, the fact 
of allowing REBOL view give me more of what its already doing.  it 
wont add anything substantial to interpreter in file size, wont remove 
any features, won't even affect current VID objects, as they already 
handle the most basic event types.  But at least, I will be able 
to cater more precisely to client's needs without it removing the 
core reason I would propose REBOL for a client in the first place... 
cause I can just do it.


an example, in many apps, having the middle mouse button would have 
been very usefull (especially in my field, where all computers have 
3 buttons), and sorry, but having to try and hack such a thing in? 
 I don't even know where to start, how do I then reverse hack such 
a thing so that it gets into view cleanly?  how will a word be assigned 
in the event/type correctly?  and then linux... my god, do I have 
to understand the whole X,  just to figure out how to add a middle 
 mouse buttons?

(Except for the fact that rebol creates the public/ dir.)

The bad thing on mobile Java developement is that almost every phone 
has own specific bugs due the fact the Java interpreter has been 
implemented by different company(and usually not well tested). Even 
different types of phones from the same vendor have different JavaVM 
with different problems. Not to mention that lot of phones have specific 
additional API(with specific bugs too) so doing a 'crossplatform' 
developement is really a nightmare. I'm glad we have only one source 
of Rebol distribution in this case.

LIST-VIEW has a lot of different actions that let you set what it 
should do in particular situations easily. Every single VID element 
should have that. In fact there should be an abundance of placeholders 
for actions, every one that we can think of.

once we understand how the values work I guess its ok... there should 
just be a little bit more info on the fact that things like grad-start 
are in pixel distances...  it might seem obvious... but with my background 
in CG I was expecting shape size relative scale.  Its ok, as long 
as the info is made explict  :-)

Can you see any holes in this method ? (Apart from the fact that 
it requires time events.)

Maxim: this is a known fact. I think it is better to have full control 
on timer than not be able to have backgound timers running.

The eye is cheating you here. In fact it's just fuzzy, not antialiased. 
I've investigated this closely.

so, in fact, REBOL is language like any other out there - we could 
create bindings for Qt etc. too. That is why I said we have two sides 
of one coin here. If View would not exist, we would probably today 
use other gui engine ...

In fact, it doesn't have a title bar, and I don't know why.  I resize 
it and as I resize I drag a rubber band and only see the effects 
of resizing when I release the mouse.  It is actually somewhat slow 
to start up compared to the browser...

What I dislike on the web though, is the fact than once you try to 
do something more complicated, you involve some monstrose js libraries 
which are bigger than rebol itself. The whole concept does not sound 
well integrated to me. But never mind - web 2.0 will offer better 
support for offline apps - Google Gears, Mozilla's FF3 attempt, etc.

I am not arguing that REBOL/View should not exist.  And in fact though 
I am talking about how I like Gmail I do currently use Apple Mail, 
a native program, to read and send messages via Gmail's IMAP (usually). 
 I'm just saying that the reason people are targeting the browser 
now instead of native code is because browsers have one of the most 
important features--efficient multilingual text layout in a 2D space, 
with inline images and such.  I can't embed a YouTube video here 
in the text box... if I type in a hyperlink it's not clickable... 
right click can't copy text, etc.

I guess it comes from the fact that you can build face trees manually 
and therefore would need to set them with SHOW directly.

could it be connected with that fact, that it is ppc version of Rebol 
& Linux?

I think noone is. It is just a guess, based upon a fact, that none 
such usable rich-text editor appeared yet :-)

but for a fact, just looking at the wake-event function for view, 
show-popup and hide-popup  you have ALL of what you need to make 
View manage windows the way you want it.


(I've had to play in there countless number of times... GLayout completely 
removes show-popup, for example.  and adds a /modal refinement to 
its 'view command instead)

that managed within the do-event of wake-events.


the fact that  detect is called, means do event was called.  whenever 
a detect returns false, it consumes the event and subfaces do not 
get their events (even time IIRC).

It's not the fact that it's a user-defined word. It must be something 
else. It looks to me like it's because the word 'Connection (with 
capital 'C') already exists in system/words on startup. Defining 
'connection in the global context doesn't change the capitalisation 
on the existing symbol. So I think the completion function is case-sensitive 
Try in the console:
>> Abacus: 1
>> abalone: 2
>> aba
and press Tab Tab.

in R3 that will be part of rich text. due to "bugs" in the rich text 
system, you can in fact already edit rich text in R3, you can just 
not yet move the caret between or select across multiple styles.

In fact, I don't even know how selection works. Is it mezzanine?

btw, I'm working on getting this kind of collision detection code 
working under REBOL  :-) 


in fact, I also want to support rotated shapes, which makes it quite 
a bit more complex to handle generically, but I've done enough research 
on the subject to have a good feel on how to get it to work.


I'm hashing out all the maths to do it, and will integrate this into 
my little game engine.

right now, one thing is sure, the fact that I have to go thru rendering 
"passes" for each part of the rendering slows down the rendering 
a lot.


the actual number of strokes doesn't affect the rendering as much.


trying to compile all the dynamic graphics into a big block is also 
affecting performance.  but each individual group of elements is 
rendering at under 1% cpu.  rendering three passes jumps the cpu 
to 20%!!!


reducing/composing the passes together is almost as slow as seperate 
passes, sometimes even more.  i am rendering at least 32 fps.  If 
I have to rebuild a 50kb draw block at each render, the interpreter 
is "spinning air" redoing things over and over, allocating intermediate 
blocks for not much real reason, because in this case... the shapes 
actually change even comming into/out of existence dynamically.  
I can't just use static binding, the actual drawing is changing.

the plasma effect you saw used repetitive blur to an image, with 
new particles added and some offset added to the previous image.

the problem with this is that you cannot change the color and the 
fact that the whole image gets faded.

it could work if R2's effect system also managed the alpha channel 
but it doesn't AFAIK.

and in fact, this is one of the cases where a patent is used in its 
rightfull way.. this is truely an invention, original and even fully 
developped.

not really.. the only prior art it shares is in the fact that you 
scrub your fingers.. its not actually using shapes, but a very simple 
clockwise counting algorythm.

Gab, fact is .. I don't read Italian :)

@Izkata:  I understand your X now!  If /doc is simply a refinement 
to "help", then that fact is not showing up when "help" is entered 
by itself.

bottom line: I simply wanted to use the "help" system to explore 
 what's available in "layout" and how to use each component. I was 
assuming that the "help" system was a comprehensive reference. It 
may not have been designed as such.

They should in fact just call it "Ask Mr. Spock".

I can see why Carl says it's his favourite Star Trek movie. The computers 
that Spock uses are in fact Amiga 1000s. :-)

The whole list is quite odd. In fact, I find it very odd that Carl 
is there.

I think I can help here (I'm about to have another patent awarded 
in fact that touches on this same area).


First, we all have to laugh here that what the patent covers is that 
data is sent in a format that is OPEN and STANDARD.  XML falls under 
this definition.


From the description “Any program or procedure which needs to format 
or understand the document must know all of the special codes and 
be able to correctly separate them from the content. All routines 
which work with the document must have exactly the same model of 
how the embedded codes are formatted or placed. If any operation 
misinterprets the code sequence even slightly, or mistakes content 
for formatting, the document or a part thereof will be reduced to 
meaninglessness. “


In other words guys, this group is suing Microsilly for FINALLY playing 
nice with everyone else.   This is the purist form of irony ever, 
and I love it.


I agree with the judge.   The problem now is...is there prior art? 
 This is 1994.  Permit me to make something clear, they are not claiming 
that showing something like XML is the scope of the patent, even 
WordPerfect would should you something like XML if you asked to “reveal 
codes”, but in fact it was stored internally in some odd format (just 
like word).  The move to storing the data in this standardized way, 
and showing it in the same way, might indeed by unqiue.  The language 
for storing it has to be standard itself, this self referencing part 
is what makes this tricky.

exactly... in fact, OpenGL provides the .lib files directly, so you 
in fact compile your own OpenGL DLL directly... no need to double 
reference the DLL  :-)

the fact that it uses http, html and js... doesn't make it different 
from any other stupid dumb terminal.

In fact, what Geomol and some other ppl claim is - that we wait very 
long, at that it would be nice to have some other option available. 
They are right in following aspects - we can't still help much with 
R3 development. So far it is still done by Carl.


But, that is not 100% true, just some 90% - we can help writing VID, 
networking protocols ... yet noone did it.


I can understand Geomol - when R3 was announced, it was supposed 
to be out in few months, whereas we are something like finishg fourth 
year of its development. It was promissed long time ago, that there 
will be most of the R3 to be open-sourced. It did not happened yet, 
and some ppl might question, if it will ever happen.


The other group, properly and daily following R3 development, asks 
for patience, as we are really close. Latest Twitter message as well 
as month update shows, that Carl is working on Host code, in order 
to be released to few developers. Carl also reported succesfull separation 
of kernel and host two days ago.

So ... make up your own conclusion :-)

Interesting read, Nick. Few other links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_%28database%29


I think that with RIF we could go the NoSQL way too. In fact, Ashley 
did so already :-)

Its probably a better device than the ipad, in all aspects.  I've 
used ribbon interfaces in some softwares and their use is very smooth. 
 

Our brain immediately uses positional memory, and even if we don't 
see things... we easily remember where they are (right of, left of).


QNX is probably the best OS out there, from the kernel point of view, 
at least. 


I can't see it being irrelevant.  If anything, the fact that they 
beat all the PC manufacturers is nice and, also, their high rating 
in the commercial area, means most business people will relate to 
it much better than the ipad.


For one thing, Black berry (at least try to) address the issues that 
businessmen need.

This will make security cameras about 99% better, removing false 
positives, and in fact IDing who someone is.

...RMA don't want to work with us...

 - that is a lie. RMA do want to work with all developers wanting 
 to cooperate. In fact, there are areas, where you could easily contribute. 
 But, if you instead try to show RMA do something you don't want them 
 to do, then your this is not how cooperation works.

I never liked HP, dunno why :-) I worst thing is, I have no reason 
to hate them :-) But - in big corporate world, I grew-up in IBM land. 
IBM was "frienlie", because of PowerPC = Amiga :-) HP killed Compaq, 
which I liked more. Pity HTC had not enough of money to buy Palm. 
I am not also sure I like the fact that so cool OS as QNX is, is 
owned by RIM. We have BBs here, and I will have one in few months 
too, but BB is being regarded mostly a corporate cell phone.

It is interesting watching someone REALLY use a tablet for "work". 
 One of my lawyers has had an iPad for a while.  I have been telling 
him he can use it with Qtask in a really powerful way, and he finally 
took the 3 minutes that was required to make his life easier.  We 
installed http://readdle.com/(I have been talking to the lead programmer 
for about a year now), and signed into Qtask with it.


Now he can see all his matters, download (and they made it about 
x4 faster than Windows), and now mark up docs, save to Qtask through 
WebDAV.

I personally sitll have no use for a tablet, and I have an iPad which 
I'm about to sell because I simply don't use it.


For me to really use a Tablet I want forward/backwards camera,  10+ 
battery life, G3 and G4 wireless,  an OS that allows me to get to 
the files and Flash.  

(in fact, I''m reminded of how much I hate the iPad and my iPhone 
again LOL).

unfortunately, what I call flat OOP (limited inheritance & polymorphism) 
is very effective and functional programming isn't a substitute for 
OOP.  The fact that the page talks about OOP being anti-modular, 
IMHO, clearly shows a fundamental lack of understanding for that 
paradigm.


the problem here is not OOP, its how people have granted it the "golden 
hammer" status that it never should have gotten in the first place. 
 The problem is that people have diluted the core ideas behind OOP 
by bloating it out of its purity.   


When you look at the huge mess that are the current commercial frameworks 
like java or .net, then it does seems like OOP has somehow failed, 
but in reality, going back to basics and teaching how to leverage 
OOP properly would have been a better decision IMHO.

and I suspect the fact that there are gamma spikes at the start end 
end of the process are clues as to how it works too  ;-)

wrt public acceptance isn't going to be hard.   the system instantly 
shuts off if you remove the input current, so that a simple fuse 
in the system makes it highly safe, in fact much safer than any conventional 
fossil fuel furnace in case of appliance failure..  


my own furnace had a back-fire explosion two months ago...  this 
litterally ripped off and blew the whole piping leading to the chimney 
right into the opposing wall.

i tried gedit too recently on a mac. luckily there was a binary version, 
because the compilation segfaulted... well, it's quite nice. i could 
see that as an open source alternative, but despite of the fact it's 
supposed to support utf-8, it didn't...

travel at least thousands of times faster than the speed of light
 - except for the fact, that they actually don't "travel"

the fact that it takes about 30 minutes to implement the general 
concept of entities in REBOL (it took them 2 years within their toolchain 
;-) is a testatment to how good it is IMHO.


i.e.  something which is conceptually friendly to some REBOL idioms 
(in concept, not it actual code) is pretty nice for a change.

Adobe managers really love HTML5, they are slowly leaving Flex as 
well:


Given our experiences innovating on Flex, we are extremely well positioned 
to positively contribute to the advancement of HTML5 development, 
starting with mobile applications. In fact, many of the engineers 
and product managers who worked on Flex SDK will be moving to work 
on our HTML efforts...

http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html

(the infromations were not even correct and missing from Stanford, 
but they were such that they made the corresponding paragraph in 
the Stanford encyclopedia incorrect, in fact)

I think we agree it is "useful".  But, for example, I would never 
take ANY fact offered on Wikipedia and assume it is "true" without 
my own separate confirmation.  Nor would i use Wikipedia + some other 
source "together" to equal truth.  In other words, I would use Wikipedia 
to learn "about" a fact, and then judge a seprate source on its own.

But, for example, I would never take ANY fact offered on Wikipedia 
and assume it is 

true" without my own separate confirmation." - maybe there is a difference 
between domains, as Graham pointed out.


For example, I found it funny that Randall Holmes not just put a 
fact into a WP article, but he also wrote a (mathematical) proof 
in it, while some (poor thinker, IMO) marked the fact (which was 
mathematically correctly proven at the place) as doubtful, since 
there was no reference to some published article (LOL).

'In other words, I would use Wikipedia to learn "about" a fact, and 
then judge a seprate source on its own' - well, on the other hand, 
this is usually what you should do with any encyclopedia; find the 
pointers to sources where you can learn more, which is what Wikipedia 
does well enough for me

The question is not how many successes you can come up with...

 - interesting! However, my point is totally different. For me, an 
 encyclopedia is useful if I can learn about a fact something new 
 and find also pointers to relevant sources. When this holds for every 
 subject I look up (which it does for *my* usage of the WP), then 
 I do not need anything more.

what you guys seem to not want to understand is that delaying VID 
may be good for you but it *hurts* RT. so, well, it ends up hurting 
you too in the end. talking does not change that simple fact.

we should in fact be able to scale down from full graphics to text 
console, if it's possible to make a usable interface in that.

sorry, I'm in fact wrong. it is in fact different lines. but it would 
be possible to do in rich text.

We need data composition dialect upon the basic grid engine :-) You 
would create virtual table for grid, which in fact could be composed 
from multiple tables :-) All operations, as moving columns, rows, 
etc., has to take care of indices at those particular target places.

But I'll stop joking...this will be a very handy feature and doesn't 
deserve me clownin' around.  These are all good ideas.  And I think 
the fact of showing interest may move it closer to reality in R3. 
 Right now it is just a suggestion that got the nod of being possible.

That's what I'm talking about...

For me, the 'unless'  was new but I see that it was just what I was 
saying; I need to learn R2 better, because there it did in fact  
exist in R2. Interesting, thanks.

james_nak: LIST-VIEW is in fact not used in dev-base. I wish it were, 
though. :-)

sorry , i got no problem in fact (i just have to open my eyes)

Kaj - yes, it is going to happen. In fact - I had some private chat 
with Carl, trying to explain him, that we should do something concrete. 
That is why I pushed for core-like release sooner, than full View 
release later, while initially most other users were against my proposition. 
Carl decided, that it will be that way. The plan was set, and now 
Carl is heading towards the core-like initial alpha release.

Assume as FACT that Rebol 3 is in late and won't come so soon as 
expected and start a collaborative approach torwards the work of 
developers and the whole project in general ?

Rebol 3 will come sometime the next year. This is (probably) the 
only fact we have.

A small status update for those interested: VID3 work is commencing. 
Gabriele is building a dialect to make it simpler to build VID3 styles, 
lots of discussions coming from that. The rest of the team are commenting 
this code.


Carl is still busy with Unicode. In fact there is so much to be changed 
due to Unicode, that we had a discussion yesterday seriously, whether 
R3 would still be called REBOL afterwards. The conclusion was that 
it was not a good idea to rename REBOL to something else. :-)

A couple of bugs reports have been made, but nothing crazy yet.

In fact, while attempting to convince somoene to use REBOL over .NET, 
I really learned how little .NET actually does for you as  web developer. 
(I can't speak to using .NET for something else).