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Paul - you should reverse it. We do develop in REBOL. If Flash/Flex 
can't offer something new or faster, then it looses. Now it is upon 
you to show me, that you do your app faster in Flash/Flex than in 
R3, once architecture is finished.

Henrik - exactly. I would be very curious, what would general developer 
of Flash/Flex do, if he would like to code new widget/control himself 
(define new class). So - Paul - do you know only how to use new or 
derived widgets, or do you also know, how to easily (or not so easily) 
extend Flash/Flex widgetset?

I guess you should compare Wolfram Alpha to Spock in the beginning 
of the fourth Star Trek movie, where he's being tested by a computer. 
"How do you feel?" :-)

Opera Unite: a Web server on the Web browser


With Opera 10, we are introducing a new technology called Opera Unite, 
radically extending what you are able to do online. Opera Unite harnesses 
the power of today's fast connections and hardware, allowing all 
of us to help define the future landscape of the Web, one computer 
at a time. Read about how Opera Unite is going to change the way 
we interact on the Web on labs.opera.com.

It looks that PHP is more and more bloated. At least for most cases 
I used PHP I just needed a few conditions, includes and connection 
to database with a little bit image and email support. I really don't 
know why I should do "Personal Home Page" with closures, namespaces, 
etc..

Matt Mullenweg with Wordpress is second? It's not too fair.. what 
it has to do with programming?

Graham - no, not complicated. It is about what reboltutorial suggests 
- how can REBOL be successful, if it can't integrate to business 
systems? Scala is becoming popular. I would like to use REBOL at 
my work. So - how do I query Active Directory, to get me listing 
of users? Bzzz ... you can't easily do such stuff with REBOL. REBOL 
is cool, but a bit in an isolation.

which is what SWIG basically does directly.  once a C library (.lib 
.so or .dll) is mapped to SWIG you can export it into any output 
module you want... since MANY libs have already been setup for SWIG, 
providing an output module for R3 extensions means we'd have access 
to many libraries right away.  no need to do the complicated work, 
just a one-line command saying basically, give me access to that 
for rebol .

The essence would be to make this work as painlessly as possible 
for developers. If it takes to download a single DLL and load it 
with one line of code to make R3 magically do extra stuff, that's 
the way it should be.

1. REBOL 3
2. SQLite
3. Profit!

There was another side project using transputer chips (not sure if 
it was Commador project) that allowed multiple transputers to multi-process. 
THe first board contained four transputers but theoretically there 
was no limit to the number of transputers and the gain in process 
power was linear and did not level off as regular processors do (or 
did back then). I think Helios had something to do with it...

well, nvidia has pretty much sealed its fate,  all by itself.  just 
2 years ago, ATI was barely able to compete at any level save embedded 
market.  


with all the shitty management, continual delivery of defective parts, 
and all of their arrogance, nVidia have just been allienating clients, 
OEMs and any potential business partner... what do they expect?


Ati on the other hand, has been working on being nice to the industry 
(although they did a big oops with apple a while back), improving 
quality, reducing costs, improving performance, and investing where 
there is money to make...

I woundnt be surprised that intel is waiting for nvidia to be on 
the verge of collapse to do exactly what AMD did  :-)

I have developed such things 10 years ago with runtime reconfigurable 
deadlock free communication network (we called it worm-routing). 
And getting C compiled down to such a thing is not easy because every 
CPU needs a good access to memory. Either local (than how to exchange 
data?), global (how to do locking) etc.

I see commenters claim that this is a ripoff of Opera Unite (it isn't 
in any way anything like Opera Unite), and others claim that Google 
is trying to get others to do their work (misunderstanding the concept 
of open standards).

If people start getting pissed off at Google for actually having 
and using the money to fund research *which they are giving away*, 
then we are doomed. The protocol looks good so far. If it sucks, 
it should get ignored (see SOAP). If it doesn't suck, it should be 
adopted. There is no reason to give a crap about "domination" because 
Google isn't trying to control network protocols, just to improve 
them for all.


It makes sense to complain about their domination in search and advertising, 
and their kowtowing to local tyrants at times. But this is not one 
of those cases. They are giving the protocol away for free. They 
aren't tying it to a platform like MS. It is even encrypted end-to-end, 
so the tyrant governments can't easily read it. They even are providing 
an open-source reference model, *and* asking for advice on implementation 
strategies.


There is no down side for us here. The only upside for them is not 
exclusively for them: Anyone who implements a protocol like this 
would gain the same benefit. For that matter, there is no way for 
them to gain from this over anyone else in the only ways which they 
do dominate: search and advertising, or even online apps. If they 
were closing this protocol then maybe they could gain over others, 
but they are opening it so it is only gain for all.

In comparison to MS or IBM I can see no top designers in google, 
having actually a vision, a complete one. They throw things here 
or there, they can do whatever (almost unlimited resources), and 
you can bet, that they lead us to lock-in ....

This is not cloud crap. It has nothing to do with lock-in. THis is 
a much lower-level protocol than that.

Graham - exactly - I think that we have many things to do - port 
R3 to many platforms, create browser plugin, etc.  There is where 
our energy should be put. R3 is free. How more cheap you want it 
to have?

if the filing system is encrypted .. do you have to encrypt your 
files again?

To answer your questions towards REBOL browser plugin:


- we don't know, if they will allow plugins, do we? But if they do, 
we can create one, why not?


- Josh disappeared long time ago, security doc he was supposed to 
work on, was never finished. But most probably non-ability to properly 
secure browser plugin was one of the reasons why R3 effort started 
...


- with browser plugin, you better don't allow call to local system, 
nor any call to system API. So the question is - what happens to 
'call and 'extensions? Even if you would display security requestor, 
it might be considered a threat, as users are kind of dumb, and many 
will click YES anyway. So the only chance probably will be to build 
special Hosts, including everything we need for a plugin


- there might be some special version of plugin, with signing and 
certificates, so e.g. RT would inspect the extension, and claim it 
being secure. But I still don't know, if it is going to be enough 
...

Anyway, this is a threat to the traditional desktop .. I thought 
we should just do a threat assessment :)

1. "You know that our resources are scarce. There are very few REBOL 
experts and they are all working."


If an expert can't help by delivering C code, which is needed, I 
guess, then it's better, if that expert use his code elsewhere. (See 
e.g. Gabriele's last post in "!REBOL3".)


2. "You know that R3's source model will deliver the much needed 
flexibility in extensions, hosts and open source code."


We still wait to see these things. Do you expect people to wait forever? 
I can understand, many use their REBOL knowledge and try to create 
something similar themselves, because they're tired of waiting. If 
there were alternatives, people didn't have to wait, but could move 
back and forth between languages. That's happening with many other 
languages.


3. "You know that R3 development is moving forward at a steady pace."


And it can continue to do that, even if there were competition. Actually 
competition might speed some things up.


4. "You know there is a clause to put R3 in other people's hands, 
if RT bows under."

No, I didn't know that.


5. "You know that the R3 design proces relies heavily on one single 
reference."


Yes, and that put REBOL developers in what situation? With alternatives 
and competition, how would the situation look? I don't think, it 
needs to be a worse situation than the present one with alternatives.


6. "You know that RT can't work any one bit faster if a different 
developer with similar goals comes in to compete."

No, I didn't know that. Also if the alternative were open source?


7. "You know that dividing REBOL in separate implementations will 
kill one of its main advantages"


So there can be only one? We have R1, R2 and possible R3 in the future. 
R3 seems to be not very backward compatible, when it comes out. What 
if there came an alternative, that was more compatible with R2, than 
what R3 will be? That can't be bad for all our present code written 
in R2.


I'm sorry, if I offended you, I didn't mean to. I like change. And 
I like good design.

Geomol - sometimes I wonder about your ignorance(?), sorry. You are 
very clever guy, so I really wonder, what is the reason to hear argument 
like in point 2) Henrik is right - who is more informed than the 
community members? I remember the time when Carl invited me to R3 
GUI world. You all gurus were there, yet he had to invite person 
like me (causing a noise many times), because of lack of input. So 
what are we complaining to? Replies to blogs are similar matter. 
Just don't tell me, you are not informed.


Te link to beta project plan - http://rebol.com/r3/docs/project.html
was posted here, was posted in November status update IIRC. Twitter 
message says, Carl is working on Host code NOW. Yesterday we posted, 
that Carl reported on R3 chat succesfull separation of Host vs kernel 
and that he is working on MinGw support. The host code is being worked 
on NOW.


So how can you post argument like you posted in point 2)? Isn't it 
a bit ignorant and disrespectfull to those who care to work on R3? 
How much support do you expect? I do care to remind Carl to update 
blogs, we do care to spread info even here, yet you claim "do you 
expect ppl to wait forever?". 


And even more so - do YOU expect anyone to wait for mysterious ORCA 
like project to be closer than R3 is? ORCA actually IS open sourced, 
for many years. How is that it did not bring competing environment 
to R2 at least to date? (not to mention its architecture is arcane 
compared to what R3 provides us?)


We are really small community. Everyone of us, can weight his own 
free time. So now decide for yourself, where do you put your free 
time REBOL wise. Boron, or R3? As for me, the answer is clear - my 
energy goes to project, which currently has chance to be completed 
in close future. Splitting our efforts at this stage can't bring 
anything usefull imo ...

As for Boron, I'm all for it, as long as it is license comopatible. 
The ORCA license precluded any sharing with REBOL (the license choice 
seemed to do that deliberately), so any work on it was necessarily 
divisive. Which is why it hasn't really gone anywhere. If Boron chooses 
a open source license that is compatible with R3's open source license, 
then there will be no reason to choose one instead of the other - 
you can choose both, and have work on one benefit both.

Henrik - I don't even have problem with existence of a clone (if 
such clone would be clone of the interpretter and used Host code, 
so that we could have swap-in solution). I don't have problem with 
things being open-source at all. But - what I am looking for is - 
project management. It is not enough to just state - let's support 
Boron, cause it takes too long for RT to finish the project.


Things should be balanced. Hence I ask only for one things - someone 
stating A (e.g. Boron), should be able to also state B (many questions, 
as - 1) why do we expect the project will draw any attention, even 
even Orca did not succeed here? 2) where are our resources available? 
Who is willing and has enough of time to contribute, so that we don't 
wait another 3 years for such a solution? 3) Will it be 100% compatible 
to official future product - R3? If not, isn't it a risk? We already 
face R3 vs R2 incompatibility. Do we need another layer?)

Then Amiga went thru Escom to Gateway to Amino, to Amiga Inc. (2 
incarnation of Amiga Inc.'s actually - Delaware and Washington). 
Then there was also a community split - some guys started to create 
MorphOS, a competing product.


But maybe what had Gabriele in mind is, that Amiga is almost dead 
due-to incompetence of parent company. The company does not communicate, 
it made some wrong decision (Amiga Anywhere product vs most ppl wanting 
official AmigaOS to evolve). AmigaOS was made second level product, 
and its development was subcontracted to Haage&Partner (OS 3.5, OS 
3.9). Then there was conflict between the companies and H&P refused 
to give away sources. So Hyperion stepped in, and was subcontracted 
to do OS4. The same situation - last month court granted Hyperion 
right to use AmigaOS trademark, and Amiga Inc. can't use it.

the biggest general opurtunity these days for language is good concurrency 
/ multicore stuff .  GUI is moving to browser, but REBOL can do a 
lot (or more) on the server side / logic / bots ... etc

Petr, you can fix all the things that we did not do right in the 
past and that will be good. The question is, are we anticipating 
the next wave or still trying to catch the last one?

Why not let Boron go its way instead of castigating it's existence, 
see if it opens doors that we do not expect.  Who's to say what is 
driving it forward...

Anyone is free to do what he wants, I am supporting only the official 
distro. In current situation it is the only thing which makes sense. 
There was several cloning attempts in the past, some of them raised 
some expectations, and they failed to be finished/released. I don't 
know why I should waste my time with another clone. I mean - each 
of us have our own jobs, and if I have some free time, I am going 
to devote it to official distro ...

Janko - I am not sure users do care nor distinguish, if some things 
runs as a plugin or as a JS app :-) It is just agenda of web developers, 
who try to kill stuff as Flash, Silverlight. R3's GUI might not be 
competition to web development, but it might have its place in some 
rich-apps development, embedded sphere, etc. I would not dismiss 
such potential ...

music is one of (if not the) best brain training things you can do. 
 it forces every part of the brain to work together and in sync. 
 senses, reasoning, coordination, memory, reflexes.  A study showed 
that adults only learn musical instruments a bit slower than children. 
 its the practice that's the good part.   

its also one of the best anti-stress things out there.

I more often find it harder to find words now than 20 years ago. 
But I know more words today, so it's mayby logical. Languages never 
was my big thing, and my english really sucked, especially when I 
was a teen. I don't understand, what they mean by "mental faculties 
reach a peak in one's early 20s". Sure, if they measure on people, 
who don't exercise their brain after school-years, then they'll see 
that. It's the same, if they measure muscular abilities for someone, 
who used to do physical exercise and then became lazy.

My spelling was better when I was a kid, but I think the older you 
get, your brain gets filled with all sorts of junk, diminishing your 
capacity to see the right answer in simplistic matters like spelling, 
or perhaps you care less about it, because you realize how important 
or non-important it is to get right, saving brain power.

I'm a way better programmer now, more thanks to various thinking 
techniques, than to specific learning about algorithms. I'm better 
at leaving a problem alone when I know it will take days to solve, 
if I bruteforce it. "Wiser birds" and such.

I think if I went back to university and took the same courses again 
that I did back then (but have forgotten all about), I would do a 
lot better in them.

Today in my 30's, I feel my brain is developing a whole lot more 
than in my 20's. Even my short-term memory is improving.

Yes, they admit that. The only protection is that Google promises 
not to do anything with it, but who knows.

A technical preview of Kodu for PCs is available from Microsoft Labs. 

http://fuse.microsoft.com/kodu/


This is a really nice game creation application for kids. It's completely 
graphical and requires good 3D hardware for best effects (I'm using 
it with an embedded Intel 945G chipset and it's almost acceptable 
at a 1280x720 res, though I don't get the nice shaders, glow, etc.). 
If you've got kids of around 8+, I would really recommend you check 
this out. I've been looking at what's available out there and there 
aren't too many really nice environments.


Part of the problem with most development environments is that the 
little guys expect quite a lot in terms of whizzbang from the exposure 
to all the latest games and it's quite a lot of work to do anything 
approaching this in most kid friendly tools. Kodu seems to be an 
exception.  


I'd also recommend StarLogo TNG from MIT, Scratch (and the enhanced 
version BYOB -build your own blocks) from MIT, as well as the newsest 
version of Alice (3.0 beta) from Carnegie Mellon.


It would be a good little project to create REBOL tools for content 
creation/edition for Kodu. Later, when Maxim's 3D and other UI candy 
is in place, maybe REBOL could be used to create the best kids' programming 
tool ever.

Sikuli is intersting.... reminds me of a thing on the Amiga called 
Madala... where you could write scripts as I recall that were visual, 
to do actions based on what it found under hot points.

You could for example select a region, it would use a simple OCR 
to read that region, and then, if let's say a word or number was 
reached, like let's say a counter that you knew was sending 10,000 
files reached 9,900, you could have it play a sound, so you could 
know it was done....


Would prefer a better version where you can simply pipe all text 
or widgets to other places.  Wouldn't it be cool if you could "pull" 
like a sticker a widget from one place (an application or even website) 
and "stick it" on some other place, like your dashboard or toolbar 
somewhere else?.


Is there really any reason I should not be able to take some group 
here in AltME, pull it "Tech News" over to my Googl page, which I 
look at a lot, and when somoene posts here, I see it turn red "there".

or if you've got too many to do it that way, disable everything but 
S3 organizer and see if it works by itself - if it doesn't then you've 
saved some time testing

Apparently Buzz is excellent tool for Email harvesting.. If you just 
happen to have right client to do it.. 

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/1591657/google-buzz-criticised-lack-privacy

google has become a malevolant  liberator.... like the US in Irak. 
 we will free you from others... then remove your free will.


Buzz should NEVER have been forced upon me.  I am VERY pissed off. 
 I don't give a SHIT about buzz... I never will.  its a stupid idea 
in the first place.  

mail is a private thing.  Something to which I SPECIFICALLY DO NOT 
WANT to add a social experience to.


I mean, can you imagine people learning that you have subscribed 
to a porn site or some private agency (medical, govt, etc), because 
a very obvious mail address is listed as someone you correspond with 
often (cause you receive automated mails)?


then when any robot visits the url, it gets cached and you can't 
EVER remove that information from the net.  its freakin insulting 
to intelligence.

Gregg: strange, it did not ask me to log in, and I do not have a 
wordpress account. Maybe this was changed after I posted the link?

NoSQL is for people who need speed rather than acid.


I worked on stuff in the 1980s and 1990s that sacrificed guarantees 
of data consistency for higher rates of throughput. At the time, 
it was the only way to build those systems as we did not have the 
raw machine power needed to run large-scale real time systems.


These days, the same may still be true for some huge write-heavy 
applications. If so, people will do what they can get get the performance. 


But most applications need data consistency more than raw performance.

Reichart...I agree. I do not understand with the millions, maybe 
billions lost in time, resources etc why there is not some  agency 
set up to get this type of scam....they are hiding in plain site.

Just to make sure we are all clear here... I'm using no humour.


I believe Pekr to have asked me about the link I posted to the virus 
called "Security Tool".

By asking me if it is a "prohibited business practice" he is implying 
it is a business in the first place.
I see no evidence this is a real product, or a business.


In any case, let's pretend that it is a real product, now let's pretend 
(and this does not require much of a stretch) that it gets onto your 
doctor's computer, who is trying to look up an emergency peice of 
data.


This softtware actually PREVENTS other software from running on your 
computer.


If we prove malice, which is not hard to do here, then ALL issues 
are open.  It is not going to happen, but I would fight for this 
to be a felony, and put them in prison:

- Obstruciton of justive
- Distrubing the piece
- You can tack on to anything "With teh intent to do harm"

etc.

who don't remember the situation where do you wish having direct 
access to a virus hacker's face 
in the moment you are cleaning up your computer. 

but what I mean with my post was not humor also, it was about relation. 
for a very short moment your 

words (hunted/war) remind me a to another person using this 'size 
of reality building symbols' very 

strongly with a current result many people don't like. it is also 
significant to see how words

going into a kind of inflation and devaluating quickly by it's unrelational 
usage supported by the media. 
therefore the reference to the media who is responible for this.

Those ppl are just admitting, that the REBOL way was correct from 
the very beginning - to have "rich client", which can do stuff for 
you things directly on user's machine - no server, no html ... how 
funny ....

Pekr, you do realize that Google's Native Client is a browser extension, 
right? And it's for use within HTML, which will usually be served 
up from a server? And that it won't run outside of a browser? Google 
has been advocating the rich client for years, but the rich client 
that it has been advocating is the web browser. This is just them 
acknowledging that Javascript sucks for some purposes - they still 
want you to use the rest of the web stuff.

you said you were going to get an Android phone - do you want to 
take on the ARM hostkit?

I have... (iPhone) and I do wish more things where gesture driven 
I'd love to do more things one handed.  with the iphone, you are 
just about forced to use it two handed-for anything... the touch 
screen is quite awkward to use with thumbs I find.


but these gestures have to be user controlable.... cause for example, 
itunes allows me to shake the phone and it randomizes to a new track... 
well when the phone is jacked into my car... hehehe, it can be *interesting* 
 ;-)

Maxim, it could probably be used, but it fails more than it should: 
I own the Mass Effect game, which allows movement of the character 
via tilting the iPod, but you need a frame of reference to do that, 
hence you must sit very still when playing the game, and you must 
perform calibration, if you change your position.

Another app is a bit more reasonable: A star chart app that I have, 
will change the field of view if I move the iPod over my head, perpendicular 
to my face, but it has limited usefulness.

One where it makes perfect sense is a sleep application, where I 
place the iPod on my bed and it passively registers motions I do 
throughout the night and then records them. Based on the motion it 
wakes me at the correct time in the morning. This requires no feedback 
to the display, so it makes good sense here.

AdrianS, and I think you're underestimating what it takes to learn 
and do these things in practice.

one or two word voice commands (i.e. a limited grammar) is not hard 
to do and would just add to the kind of gesture filtering that can 
be done

you do have to speak "computer" well   ;-)

Google has been playing around with that idea for a while, kind of 
announced it a year ago actually in the Google Wave group because 
they needed a way to allow people to make money with robots and gadgets. 
Robots and gadgets are both web apps and Chrome OS only runs web 
apps. They would be stupid not to do this, they *need* an app store 
for web apps.

What do you mean by "smart client"? Efika is not only a terminal. 
It can have full OS you can install. It is just that they use something 
like VNC/Citrix aproach, to get you SW you don't have installed physically 
on the machine itself ...

it does not seem powerful enough to replacy typing... but, it would 
be interesting to have that device on while you type / user the mouse 
and let the computer "learn" and see how much it can predict. if 
you also process what's coming from the camera and microphone maybe 
we can get something useful. probably needs much faster computers 
to do all that though.

Likely you'd do something similar to speech recognition and select 
words off the screen using the interface

http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2010/07/26

Hacking your device to make it do what you want is now legal.

I don't think the UI was hard at all. My parents were able to use 
it without any problems (and they can't even rename a folder on their 
PCs), my sister had no trouble (and she's not much better than my 
parents with computers) and a friend of mine who is reeeeallly bad 
with computers (like, worst case scenario) figured everything out 
pretty much on her own (and she doesn't understand a word of english). 
I think the much bigger issues here were that people always tried 
to compare it to vastly different things (Skype, Facebook, Twitter, 
etc.) which made them completely oblivious to it's potential. It 
was also maybe hard to see the potential because third party adoption 
was really low. I think there are two reasons for the low adoption. 
For one, there was no real incentive for a developer to write an 
extension for Google because there were no real solutions to easily 
make money with Wave (an app store could have helped here, which 
Google planned to do at one point but never did). The other is something 
I don't understand at all, the API documentation. It's horrible. 
You have to look up everything in the source code because the docs 
tell you next to nothing. This hasn't improved at all over time and 
it's a shame because writing an extension for Wave is actually very, 
very easy and it allows you to do stuff that just wasn't possible 
before Wave unless yo spend a 100 times more time on it to get all 
the necessary behind the scenes stuff working.

It's also pretty much what I advised Reichart to do with AltME some 
seven years ago or so

The biggest issue with Facebook is, that you don't have to visit 
the FB page, but you are still visible as more and more pages add 
the small facebook webparts like the "I like" buttons etc.  So FB 
can see what pages do you visit, what articles in newspapers do you 
read and other, for most people invisible informations. You don't 
even don't need FB accout. The only way how to avoid it is to block 
the FB's javascripts.

Correction: The problem was solved years ago with socalled Time of 
Flight cameras. The kinect is just a much cheaper way to do the same 
thing, so now, everyone can do it.

Actually, the VLC player (free) lets you do that, but you have to 
provide it the link to the stream, whereas with MySpeed, embedded 
videos play at a speed controlled by a little tool tray UI

wrt the maya trick... its obviously a bit misleading since its  noted 
that they are using networked processing within autodesk which actually 
has nothing to do with onlive  :-)

Do not look for logical reason, they simply are politicians, who 
search for any pretext to increase taxes

Why not? Our kiosk systems do work with touch since 2003. I dare 
to say, that I know most touch technologies. Most of those simulate 
mouse ... multi-touch, I don't know. But imo View is as manageable 
as any other app out there ...

I've been studying some books on software engineering, and the more 
I learn the more I like rebol. As hard as it may be to be patient, 
I'm for not rushing RT.  Let them have the peace they need to devote 
themselves to producing the cutting edge technology we expect from 
them.  Let them do the work in the order they know to be most logical. 
Regular updates on progress would be encouraging, of course; especially 
for the pros here that need to be able to give their customers valid 
facts in order not to lose them.  Also, putting the major emphasis 
on a simplier, more capable View is great as far as I'm concerned, 
as View is what I've had the hardest time learning, and is also what 
I think will make the greatest difference for RT's success.

I have the only "difficulcy" with View - it is when I try to think 
how to "integrate it with web the other way =  not View in a browser, 
but pure View app, being able to display html container. We would 
have to be able to link to mozilla embedding product, or khtml one, 
or create at least simple html viewer. But then I worry where do 
we end - creating View based web-browser? :-)

Graham - yes, he was - his FireSide (aka DevBase) R2 VID based tool. 
It is not created from scratch, as it was already used in the past, 
but Carl wanted to do some small changes, to better fit R3 model. 
It was supposed to be done yesterday or today. We will see.

He said he was going to do so Monday, but had some things to tend 
to and so said Tuesday, but nothing was released Tuesday. Let's see 
what happens today. He usually starts talking in about 7-8 hours.

Small teaser - doing some basic tasking testing in console. I thought 
tasking does not work yet, but apart from missing IPC:// scheme it 
seems to work:


>> test: make task! [wait 10 print ["Does tasking work?" newline]]
== task!
>> do test
Begin Task
== task!
>> print "Doing something else in conDoes tasking work?

End Task
sole"
Doing something else in console

>> test: make task! [wait 10 print ["Does tasking work?" newline]]
== task!
>> do test
Begin Task
== task!
>> print "Doing something else in console..."
Doing something else in console...
>> Does tasking work?

End Task

>>

do I need to create a new type of close button?

I meant in terms of where a UI can be displayed. Not whether we can 
hard scale it to a PDA or an HDTV like they do. If you want to display 
big and pretty buttons on an HDTV, you'd use one set of styles. If 
you want to display on a text only console, you'd use a different 
set of styles, but the layout code would be the same. Some work needs 
to be done here before I can say anything more. We're only testing 
ordinary WindowsXP graphics for now.

Years ago there was a project trying to do this in XML, UIML

If it could do these things .. it would greatly enhance it's attractiveness 
to non Rebol users

Anyway, I would to see V3 create windows that can scroll easily with 
text and graphics as browser  windows do

Other integration is web technologies - there are here to stay .... 
I don't think we will be successfull in creating html, css output 
it rebol. Do we want to write web-browser in rebol? OTOH, even Python, 
using e.g. VxWidgets, has rather simple html support widget, not 
full browser support. So, DaveC, what kind of html integration in 
Python are you talking about?

Having REBOL in JAVA would get rebol onto most mobile devices and 
nearly everywhere. OTOH - JAVA on mobile devices is restricted, not 
consistent across the platforms - just ask Cyphre for his experience. 
So, maybe, and I repeat - maybe - it will be easier to port REBOL 
to most platforms, rather than to do REBOL-in-JAVA project.

sorry, I'm in fact wrong. it is in fact different lines. but it would 
be possible to do in rich text.

do you think that it will be impossible to make such a design decision?

and then R3 LIST-VIEW would just display whatever is fed to it. that's 
a smarter way to do it.

but nothing is written yet. Gabriele probably has much better ideas 
than me on how to do it fast and efficiently. :-)

i mean, that the app programmers only specifies what he *means*, 
not what the UI should look like. "I want to get a string from the 
user". "I want to get the name and birth date from the user, and 
show the age". how this looks depends on 1) the look defined by the 
gfx designer (which can be the programmer himself, if he is able 
to do that too) 2) user preferences, to the point that an advanced 
user should be able to edit the UI.

If you want to build your web apps, then you have everything you 
probably need, no? html, js, css. Where's the place for VID there? 
Why the translator? Because some JAVA monkeys do that? Yes, because 
noone is going to tolerate monstrose JAVA web browser plug-in, which 
badly failed. Why don't you ask Flash guys for Flash to xhtml + css 
translator? I am against andy degradation of possible VID advancement.

Chris: "From a visual pov, it's very easy to put together an interface 
in HTML -- it's the behaviour part that bites."


From a visual pov, it's very easy to put together a document in HTML. 
For application interfaces, it's way too underdimensioned for the 
needs we have. I have been working for years with HTML+CSS+Ajax interfaces. 

 hope with VID3, I won't have to do that ever again. It's almost a 
 sad parody of real user interface construction. I'm amazed that people 
 are already forgetting how real user interfaces work.

I'll +1 on Kaj's remarks.  I'd like to see Gabriele be allowed to 
apply some genius to VID3 then drag the rest (most) of us up to where 
we should be.  Chris and Henrik and Robert and Maarten et al will 
then produce all the cool code we've come to expect, but from a higher 
view point and perhaps from a slightly different slant than we are 
used to. imho.  And I do hope that VID3 work will be as shareable 
as the best of the library functions, umm, we don't really have yet. 
 :)

As long as it's only _console_ I don't care about readybility. If 
it ends up in code, I do care much. I wouldn't like rebol to become 
the second perl ... 

Actually, if it ends up to be only the last console expression, I'd 
vote for something like 'last-console-expression . This is Rebol, 
after all, so you can always add sometthing like:
.: :last-console-expression
to your user.r

it would make it easier to do typesetting if we had a currentposition 
command as in postscrip

I have the need for long running server applications to do house 
keeping at night ...

a bit more progress on DevBase today to allow uploading of many files 
in bulk. still a few more bits to do. DevBase will hold the code 
to itself, so we can help updating it along the way.

I really don't undersant why there is so many people crying... I 
have Uniserve runing for several months without problems, parsing 
about 50 pages two times per day to provide culture informations 
in the city I live, I use Rebol to build PHP sites, Flash apps, as 
a proxy server as, a clasic system console and for so many every 
day scripting and I really cannot imagine I would use something else 
than Rebol for such a job. And if you still think that you cannot 
do anything in R2 and have to wait for R3 to start, you can take 
a look for other technology. With computer languages it's same like 
with normal languages - the more languages you know, the better you 
are.

I just had a though this morning about just how different R3 is going 
to be syntactically from R1-R2. For those of you using it, is it 
grossly different? I think I should just continue to study the current 
Rebol since I still have plenty of jobs to do, however, I'm still 
curious what it looks like myself. Personally I doubt if it can be 
so new that what I've learned so far will not be useful but I'd like 
to hear it from those who have real-world experience.

Excellent Henrik. That's what I needed to know. Most of my issues 
are not that R2 doesn't do something or another; they have to do 
with knowledge and experience. Thanks.

Ok, currently the latest build provides support for modules, but 
some tests need to be done on that. There are also some discussions 
on how to do proper testing. We're not good testers. Now Carl is 
working on unicode and how R3 should support it. There is also talks 
about a document which provides the real roadmap to R3, but I don't 
think it's done.

Kaj - yes, it is going to happen. In fact - I had some private chat 
with Carl, trying to explain him, that we should do something concrete. 
That is why I pushed for core-like release sooner, than full View 
release later, while initially most other users were against my proposition. 
Carl decided, that it will be that way. The plan was set, and now 
Carl is heading towards the core-like initial alpha release.

Kaj, the annoying thing is that unrealistic time tables were published. 
We could see that immediately that it was too little time to do this 
work. I don't feel there is anything being postponed. Everything 
is going according to plan... just ignore the time tables.

As I have written to the mailing list: dear collegues, use R2 and 
do not wait for R3. It will be a gift of God when it will come. If 
we put R3 developers under pressure there is the probability that 
wrong choices will be made.

Kaj, ths is not the proper group to ask questions about Syllable 
but I do not see a Syllable group here...

New people here do not get into the Syllable group, as some people 
wanted it to be private