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is that plain C, or C++? Btw - how does Cyphre wrap AGG, if AGG is 
said to be strict C++? Does he have to write any wrapper in C first? 
(He said he has AGG in a form of DLL for R2)

Magnusso - Cyphre said, that he has new framework in mind, kind of 
View like, just a bit abstracted, so that it could use different 
backend systems (Cairo, AGG, Skia, Fog ....). But - not sure his 
target is Red. But maybe we convince him to port it for some fee 
:-)

Robert - it is just that talking to Cyphre, he was eventually interested 
in a "port", which would be more of a new implementation, supporting 
more advanced stuff in the backend (as switching targets, hw acceleration, 
etc.), and doing it in his free time the initial guess was 12 months. 
Such product would be surely cool, but it seems to me, that it could 
be just the second stage. 


In first stage, I would prefer having windowing/events plus AGG ported 
(still fast enough for many things, I don't understand the obsession 
about the speec, well, apart from devices lacking float support, 
here, AGG would be really slow). Such step could be done in 2-3 months 
of work? Then ppl could start port R3 GUI to it ....

Well, for Robert, anyway, if Carl does not decide to go open-sourced, 
that thing is mostly dead anyway. But who knows, who owns the licence 
of View engine? IIRC the work was done by Cyphre. But what's the 
licence of the sources coming with Host Kit? Or is Cyphre still the 
owner of the work/licence?

Get Cyphre to do a modern View like engine, and we will be kings 
- just believe me :-)

Kaj - but it is not like Cyphre creted JIT for R2, which looked like 
REBOL and was just faster. Red/System code surely can't run that 
way - it is for offline stuff, where you first have to compile the 
app, no runtime stuff ...

Cyphre's code also needed to be JITed first. I don't see a fundamental 
difference

Pekr: the difference between AOT and JIT compilation is much thiner 
than you think. Just load Red/System compiler code to your R2 app, 
pass it any source code at runtime, use the link?: no option and 
you get compiled code and related data in form of binary! values...and 
voilà! :-) The rest is same as for Cyphre's JIT, you need a way to 
call native code in memory, something that is hardly possible in 
R2, but maybe Cyphre found a hole to achieve it anyway.

I tried to attract Cyphre, unfortunatelly he has new View like engine 
in mind, which would require some extensive resources to spend to 
get that. And I don't have such resources, so I am "a bit" nervous 
:-)

OK, I need to work 32 hours a day to contract Cyphre, to make it 
a bit higher priority :-)

Cyphre: don't count on that (at least for Red)! ;-)

Actually, I am trying to send 50 on a month basis. Now r3 gui project 
is temting too, but i would have to see the project outline, eg seeing, 
that cyphre will be paid to update the engine to use hw acceleration, 
etc. I would love View engine to be useable with Red too. I ca feel 
some excitement last few weeks, fort both r3 and red projects :-)

And my "remerciements" have to go to every direct and indirect contributor 
too (Carl S, KaJ, Peter, Andreas, Ladislav, BrianH, Nick, Maxim, 
Pekr,  Jerry, many guys of the French and other international communities 
too ... name them - there's too much to name all of them without 
leaving someone behind). My best wishes to you all Gang- you're forming 
an exceptionally tight and prosperous team. Your tools are the best 
I saw for being productive and easyness of use. Let's the Red/Red-System 
combination, to be the future C language replacement as the new World's 
low/high level language mix of choice.  Not to be without mentioning 
the REBOL and its loyal followers too (many of the same Red contributors 
but many more like Robert, Cyphre, Henrik ... and many others which 
have found their way while we were waiting for R3 to become open 
source, like Gabriele, Geomol ... - without which we would never 
be here now.

Doc or Kaj, do you think it would be usable on my Android tablet 
- since it uses Linux on Arm as basis ? Already I can use the R3 
port from Cyphre and the console is working fine. The single problem 
I see for now is that the Red/System app is still not working on 
my tablet ... but I suppose some time in a near future this will 
be a thing of the past. Bue Doc I don't tell you this so you feel 
yourself as if you would put more time on this issue. This is not 
even disturbing me for the moment sinc in any case I don't have much 
time left for now - so even if it already worked I couldn't use it 
anyway. It's damage I don't know more by myself about all these new 
computers and environments but I have to think I'm not alone in this 
case ... Regards

I still think as a full package, REBOL is better, but R2 is getting 
old an losing support for new, cool features and platforms.  If Cyphre 
is succesful porting R3 GUI to Android, it's got a chance.  If Doc 
gets Red evolved enough to support basic features, it's got a helluva 
chance.

yes, and as a contributor, you have been surely noticed :-) I am 
still somehow satisfied with how Red development goes, eg. even in 
comparison with R3. Nothing against R3, I wish Cyphre takes us to 
Android, but for general purpose needs, untill R3 gets protocols, 
multiline console, etc, stuff noticed on SO, it is no go for me. 
So, I keep my fingers crossed as far as Red development goes - it 
is nice to have a strong leader around ...

btw - is ELF emitter finished? Noticed Cyphre used some of Adrian's 
work for R3 droid port too ...

Dockimbel - I thought so, my idea was, that Cyphre used some ELF 
support from Adrian too ... or who did it ...

Pekr: I strongly doubt that Cyphre is using Red's ELF emitter while 
compiling with gcc. ;-)

We have made an other big achievement of bringing R3 to Android OS 
based devices. In the last couple of days Cyphre added console support. 
So you now can input stuff on your Android. Further .r extension 
is now associated with the interpreter. So you can run downloaded 
scripts. We have uploaded a script, so you try it out.


Android R3 installation package: http://development.saphirion.com/experimental/R3droid.apk


Test script, for direct access from Android device: http://development.saphirion.com/experimental/oneline-prime-numbers.r


Thanks again to all who made a donation to drive this stream. We 
still can spend 10-15 days on this project at the moment. If you 
would like to help push this developement forward, feel free to donate, 
sponsor or make a bounty for features.

I'm happy to announce our next Android release. Cyphre did a great 
job and pushed the port further forward. Here are the highlights 
of the new release:

-added full file access
-added networking
-added console user input (ASK etc. works)
-improved threading (at the app level, not R3)
-misc small internal changes in the console code


With this it's possible to run R3 chat on your Android phone :-) 
Here is how to do it:

make-dir %/mnt/sdcard/r3/
change-dir %/mnt/sdcard/r3/
chat


The paths might be a bit different on your device. The trick is to 
use the /sdcard path and put everything below it.

The link is as always:

http://development.saphirion.com/experimental/R3droid.apk

Again, thanks to all who made a donation for this project!

Both the "clipboard" and "platform" change made by Cyphre.

Announcing update to

http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=ladislav-include.r

Changes:

* INCLUDE/only update
** to help Cyphre use it for encapping purposes

** returns the REBOL header spec part in the result block if available

Robert, Cyphre Congratulations !! Correct link for r3-gui is: http://development.saphirion.com/resources/r3-gui.r3
(no .r)

Thanks Cyphre.

Cyphre, that's strange, I did the same (do http://arnoldvanhofwegen.com/stuff/mirror.rebol) 
and it works for me.

Cyphre can tell, but IMO it should work on pretty most of them.

Robert and Cyphre : As already stated under the Android group I have 
succeessfully tested the new console based R3 for Android under my 
Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1 tablet - running Android 3.2. works well 
- thanks again a lot for this achievement - I wil shortly follow 
with some donation - simply waiting for my next salary deposit ...

I'm proud to say I have the second fastest Android phone tested so 
far. ;-)  I am SO excited for the future, especially for the Android 
network and file access and the graphics port.  Cyphre, how do we 
make donations again?

Bo, I upped my matching donation and additional $500 today.  Cyphre's 
doing fantastic work on Android.  Please help them stay funded, and 
I'll match donations.

Robert, when you say that I can make a donation to Saphirion, does 
that help Cyphre with his Android port?  Or is that a different fund? 
 It sounds like it is the same fund because Endo's $100 donation 
added some days to the Android port, but I just wanted to be clear.

There is a different fund for Red as well, correct?

Thanks Andreas, Cyphre, Robert and all the others actively implied 
in R3 dev, the ongoing progress and all the tools you shared and 
have committed online. The R3Droid chat works well under my Android 
3.2 (Samsung Galaxy Tab 10.1). and the chat also runs fine under 
my Win7 Toshiba -  from the binaries set online at http://www.rebolsource.net

What imo R3 misses is some built-in protocols, databases. OTOH Cyphre 
created TLS scheme .....

Thank you Robert and Cyphre... Good news indeed.

Rock n roll Cyphre

Cyphre has a huge responsibility getting R3GUI running on Android. 
 Everything he's ever created for REBOL has been top notch.  If we 
had 5 - 10 more Cyphres in this community, REBOL would be in a totally 
different place.

Agreed. We had better cherish the one Cyphre we have.

I have to agree with that. Cyphre is doing so much for us. :-)

There is only so much Cyphre that we can apply to the projects, alas. 
I hope that we can get some other talented people to take on perhaps 
individual Cyphre-class projects so he doesn't have to do so much 
overall. Hopefully the new open source projects can attract more 
people, or even have some come back (Hi Maarten!). Fork's efforts 
may help here.

I like Cyphre's proposal for rehaul of View engine :-)

Haven't you seen Google Cyphre's post?

Robert, Cyphre & team, thank you so much!

Thank you Saphirion and Cyphre.  Don't have an Android device at 
the moment (64 IOS devices).  But I will be taking after the next 
release.

Cyphre and Robert! Thank you so much for the Android release. I can't 
wait to try it out.

Bo - I wonder if you know about Cyphre's intent to accelerate View 
anyway, so imo Carl just misses important info on what is actually 
going on ;-)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rebol/6MMlv-E3j-E

Nice addition, Cyphre :)

Thank you Robert and Cyphre for the new Android release!

So to work on / debug R3-GUI (Cyphre please correct me, if I'm wrong):

;; Load INCLUDE (once)
>>  do https://raw.github.com/saphirion/include/master/include.r


;; (Re-)load R3-GUI (multiple times; assumes you are in the R3-GUI 
toplevel directory)
>> include %loader/loader.r3

Yes, the strategy Cyphre describes is ideal for immediate testing 
of any changes made to R3-GUI sources.

Cyphre, aha, thanks.

Got it! Thanks Cyphre, much appreciated.

...but the GUI example should be in the repertoire of beginners, 
don't you think? (and it even "caught" Cyphre, so he asked me how 
to do it properly using function, so I had to tell him: "don't")

Wrong addressee. I do not expect anything at all as I proved. What 
Pekr, Cyphre or other users expect is "real" to me, though.

Thanks Cyphre, I've just downloaded from Saphirion -- Looks exciting!

what red flags? The licence is not set, and the author and owner 
of the code is Cyphre, not RT, so if it is licence related, we should 
talk to Cyphre imo ... but anyway - wrong group. It is just that 
we are binding to some heavy solutions as GTK, Enlightenment, instead 
of going probably the less hard route?

Even Cyphre doesn't want to use it anymore, for technical reasons

Even Cyphre doesn't want to use it anymore, for technical reasons

 - I never heard anything like that, and it even does not correspond 
 with my info, that in fact Cyphre would like to redo the View engine 
 completly ...

Cyphre redoing the View engine is the same as not wanting to use 
the current one anymore, isn't it?

Cyphre redoing the View engine is the same as not wanting to use 
the current one anymore, isn't it?

 - Well, I actually use the current one with R3 almost everyday ;-) 
  And to make things clear I won't be redoing it...my plan is to update 
 it to 'next generation'  also add more features and improve some 
 parts of the current base etc.

Kaj - I do remember View 1.0 alpha with CID (predecessor to VID) 
on a Pentium 75, 130 - ran "acceptable". Cell phones have limited 
UI needs imo, I doubt AGG will be slow. Of course some heavy operations 
might drag some juice from the battery, as it is not accelerated. 
We now need to find the ways of how to get Cyphre's idea becoming 
a reality ...

The issue is with phones that don't have FPUs. I'm just basing myself 
on what Cyphre said several months ago

Bolek, Cyphre, Henrik, Ladislav, Robert (alphabetically) are working 
on it.

Cyphre, I was under the impression that there were core bugs affecting 
R3GUI ?

Probably it is a missed file on your fork. I didn't build R3 on Windows 
yet. Cyphre can send that file I think.

I don't have that binary. I think it's used by Cyphre and it's missed 
on the svn.

And my "remerciements" have to go to every direct and indirect contributor 
too (Carl S, KaJ, Peter, Andreas, Ladislav, BrianH, Nick, Maxim, 
Pekr,  Jerry, many guys of the French and other international communities 
too ... name them - there's too much to name all of them without 
leaving someone behind). My best wishes to you all Gang- you're forming 
an exceptionally tight and prosperous team. Your tools are the best 
I saw for being productive and easyness of use. Let's the Red/Red-System 
combination, to be the future C language replacement as the new World's 
low/high level language mix of choice.  Not to be without mentioning 
the REBOL and its loyal followers too (many of the same Red contributors 
but many more like Robert, Cyphre, Henrik ... and many others which 
have found their way while we were waiting for R3 to become open 
source, like Gabriele, Geomol ... - without which we would never 
be here now.

Cyphre, how much work would it take to get https in ?  I see that 
you have tls now

Who decides an issue is closed?

 Depends on the convention set for R3 project. I usually consider 
 that it should be closed by the developer processing it, once the 
 issue is fixed. It could also be closed by the one that opened it 
 if he's satisfied by the provided answer or the fix.

Who can re-open issues?

 Admin can, Developer should too. Currently in addition to admins, 
 there are 3 people with Developer roles/rights: Henrik, Cyphre and 
 Gabriele.

Cyphre, that would be very nice.

Cyphre: that sounds fine to me.

Cyphre, Rebol compression is the same as zip deflate, but it's not 
the compressed part that's more efficient, it's the headers. The 
zip format has some fairly extensive headers, and Rebol compression 
doesn't. We do need compression to support compressed scripts though, 
so we need something. That doesn't mean we can't have something more 
flexible, and if we stick to what we can get from zlib (since we're 
linking it anyway) we can get this flexibility nearly for free.

It is a great now coming from a great man Cyphre !

For those interested in the "alpha-channel change":

Here is the branch with first round of related code changes to the 
image! and image codecs: https://github.com/cyphre/r3/commit/472c106a0f177ead82a6f29be1ae98b4cd33b9ad


Note: This code doesn't contain any graphics related changes...just 
the image! datatype + image codecs so you can MAKE images and load 
BMP, GIF, PNG and JPG files. But it should be enough to test the 
change.

(I have this code already intergated with changed AGG graphics and 
it works well but I haven't published it as this part is not compatible 
with the 'official' git source at the moment.)

Note2: the code was not tested on big-endian systems so it is possible 
there can be some quirks. Use at your own risk and let me know about 
any problems.


The RGBA tuples on IMAGE! now work so if the fourth(alpha) value 
is not defined it is assumed the RGB tuple is opaque (ie. alpha = 
255) so 0.0.0 = 0.0.0.255 etc. This way color values in old code 
that doesn't explicitly define alpha values are still compatible.


If you are interested, try to compile and test a bit. Let me know 
if you see any issues. Thanks.

Cyphre wrote 2-Apr 2013 22:03:
For those interested in the 
alpha-channel change": ..."


It's a good change to get the alpha-channel 'right' or similar to 
most other standards. Have there been thoughts about including the 
alpha-channel with the RGB values, so it becomes RGBA, which we know 
from OpenGL and other places?

From my R3 console:

>> i: make image! [1x1 #{01020304}]
== make image! [1x1 #{
010203
}]


The alpha values seems to be left out. (It might have changed in 
newer versions.) Setting the pixel will include alpha values:

>> i/1: 1.2.3.4
== 1.2.3.4
>> i
== make image! [1x1 #{
010203
} #{
04
}]


But it seems, the alpha channel is separate from RGB values. Why 
not always have the alpha channel, and include it with the RGB values, 
so we have: [1x1 #{01020304}]

NickA: during my private talks to Cyphre, he told me that if he would 
aproach the View engine nowadays, he would abstract it a bit, so 
that it could use various rendering backends - AGG, Cairo, so that 
where platform permits, it could be HW accelerated. But - such project 
would take some time, and Cyphre would have to be sponsored, in order 
to be able to do the work. I think, that it could be even written 
in a way, so that both R3 and Red benefit. But who knows ...


As for Red - no party is willing to port View engine, yet :-) Doc 
wants to aproach it other way - to use something like VID dialect, 
but final toolkit used would be the native platform one. Kaj did 
some example with Red/System + GTK, if I understand it correctly. 
I still think that even for Red, something like small View  engine 
would be benefical, e.g. for embedded work, where non traditional 
graphics is not a problem.


Dunno, how difficult would it be to get View sources adapted to Red/System. 
Red is missing on timers, events, etc., so maybe later, so that it 
can be naturally plugged in to its architecture ...

Thanks Pekr.  I spoke with Cyphre too - waiting to here if he's interested 
in being sponsored, and how much it would cost to make Android a 
priority.

Cyphre, thanks for that info.  So does the R3GUI framework work on 
all current R3 platforms?  I understand Android is a no, but everything 
else?

I'm just wondering (really, just that): is dev capacity (i.e. Cyphre 
GUI. other's on OSX, 64 bit) the limiting factor to accelerate in 
the short term? Or money?

Gabriele - could you please pass my latest comments/links to Carl? 
I looked into Io slide-show and found they do use libevent library. 
I posted links into TechNews group. There is interesting reading 
in-there, also hidden is some links - liboop and The C10K problem 
..... Maybe we will find another libraries for further rebol improvements, 
like Cyphre did find agg.

Gabriele - I know about rich-text, but from Cyphre I also know, that 
at DevCon, IIRC, it was part of an external library, so hopefully 
there is no problem with further integration, all goes well, and 
we will hear some updated status info soon ... would be nice.

I don't know of anyone that's wrapped the ability to use native Windows 
controls in a REBOL dialect, though it *might* be possible. I think 
Cal (and maybe Cyphre or Oldes) have emebedded native OS windows 
in a View window. You might also be able to do it by creating your 
own windows, using the API, and then interacting with them behind 
the scenes. It would be a lot of work though, and be highly OS specific.

interview with the author is here - http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=13241
  . ... maybe Cyphre could use some techniques for draw, but it is 
GPL :-)

http://www.rebol.net/plugin/moz-1/cyphre-demo.html

Cyphre demo, I just get a white screen. Test.html worked though

Bugs found in Firefox with Cyphre demo: 

- starts with no sound (the music started when I opened a parallel 
session with Opera, in Opera the sound is ok)

- seems there are some problems with AGG: no rotating Carl Head, 
some flash with gears, no "rebol rulez" in the sky... (Opera is ok)

- when I close firefox the music continue for 4/5 seconds (until 
the buffer is empty ?). In Opera too.

- sometimes the plugin disappear if I refresh the page. I have to 
close the browser. In Opera too.


WIn2000, nVidia GeForce4 MX 440, Firefox 1.5.0.3, Opera 9.0 beta 
build 8393

cyphre-demo also works for me without restarting.

Hello Josh! I have one request. Try to run this:

under IE:
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-ie.html

under Mozilla/FF etc.:
http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-moz.html


Drag the green box using mouse and try to move it quickly over the 
screen. You can see the time lag when the green box is updating the 
position.

Now try this from normal Rebol/View console:
do http://www.rebol.cz/~cyphre/plugin-moz-test.r


You can see there is no lag and the green box is updated very quickly.

Do yo have any idea what could cause this difference?

my specualtions: 

1. Are you always blitting the whole screen in the plugin versions? 
This could cause the slowdown as there should be updated only the 
part with green box on the screen.

2. Could be the slowdown cause by different(higher)  amount of mouse 
events which are pumped from browser to the plugin?

cyphre, try resizing the browser window to fit the plugin. it doesn't 
speed up, so it might be something with mouse events

Did anybody try Cyphre's http://www.rebol.net/plugin/moz-1/cyphre-demo.html
in Mozilla? In Seamonkey I get sligtly different results than when 
it is being run in View directly ... e.g no sound, the wheels (second 
sequence) are blinking strangerly, there some some white-page breaks 
with nothing displayed, whereas in View there is some text ... (IIRC 
e.g. Sea Dream in the beginning is missing in browser)

Cyphre, I'm taking a look at that mouse event bug now....should get 
an update to you soon.

Ah, Cyphre, I know the problem.

cyphre, I already wrote my own event filtering, but had a bit of 
hope that it would be possible to do internally for R3. I just personally 
think it's a bit too high level a place to solve the problem.

guys, maybe you coudl fix older demos for new plug-in? There is link 
at the bottom of the page to user demos - bounce demo (Cyphre), and 
Color Lab (Oldes) do not work anymore ... and then there seems to 
be some spame garbage(?), which should be probably removed, if not 
functioning - it will not shed good light on us ...

Check out Cyphre's reb site too...

Cyphre does even parallax scrolling (beast demo)

darn Cyphre's arcadia breaks under 2.7

Cyphre could answer that. I invited him on ICQ to join this group 
...

If I understand the situation correctly, Cyphre is in charge of programming 
some elements of new View ....

hum actually Cyphre's defender game is pretty cool !

There are 2 OpenGL implementations for REBOL already. One by Cyphre, 
that require REBOL/Command (I think), and mine requiring GLServer 
(compiled C program, only for OS X so far).