AltME groups: search

altme\worlds\rebol3\users.set tells you the names of the groups to 
which the .set files in the chat folder belong to...

http://membres.lycos.fr/didec/rebol/altme-chat-reader.r

I think of communication software a little differently (in general), 
so I will share this.  

Read states

 (like the Red we are talking about) are a very interesting issue. 
  


Most computer software does a very poor job of replicating empirical 
or visceral conversations.  Email for example has a method of describing 
the "direction" you are speaking.  TO: Bob, CC: Carry.  Where the 
TO: indicates you are speaking directly to Bob, and that Carry is 
standing somewhere to the left or right of you.  BCC is someone hiding 
behind you. 


Email could have an interface where you first pick the people in 
the "room." And then use something like a 2D interface to move the 
listeners around a symbolic version of you.  This would be both silly, 
time consuming, and somewhat confusing, but you get the point.


What you have read and what you have not read though has a similar 
analogy.   There are thousands of sub states and markers people use 
to sort things they have read, will read, need to read again, need 
to respond to, etc.


In Box, Out Box, Papers upside down, putting papers you need to sign 
under your car keys on the floor in front of the door leading to 
the car, etc.


I have one friend who re-wrote some open source email program to 
have some huge number of states and then some simple filters.  It 
works VERY WELL, if you know his system.  He never forgets anything.


So the current model AltME has (right now) is a very simple interface. 
 Tantimount to "Have I ever seen this before."


We are playing with some other models in Qtask, which may get adopted 
into AltME.  I'm working on a system I call Venn Chat.  Some features 
include:

Have I read this before? (like AltME)
Mark this:  

Follow up (add to a list of messages you want to think about more)
Note (All should read this when they come into the group)
All Must Read (converts it into an AltME-like alert)


Convert to a task (and keep the context of the chat in place, this 
is opens up a whole other area)
Branch (something like forum threading)
Re-file (move from one group to another)

Re-post (copy to another group, at the same time, similar to branch).
Trigger (tell me when someone has finally read this).
Status (tell me who has read this so far).
Attach (files, links, etc)

whish-list: mark a message for other people. kind of headlines in 
a group. idea: if we fill an important group with chat, we could 
mark up the topic-entries later. like "Carl: about syntax:".

If anyone knows a good chat client has altme like features of self 
archiving dialogue and paging features please let me know as I have 
some immediate needs for that.

FTP is evil.
But some of us have to use it.
As far as I know, REBOL doesn't support SCP
http://support.real-time.com/linux/web/scp.html

(Technically this is not an Altme message, so perhaps replies could 
go to Chat)

PS: a feature im using on my chat tool too and its sometimes very 
handy!

Or even Wrong Copy&Pasts between different Chat tools...

Reichart, just wondering with the world of IM clients getting more 
and more cluttered with Google's Chat application.  And with enhancements 
coming to AltME, QTask etc.  Are you able to give us any feedback 
to some of the plans for AltME or other apps with respect to your 
IM future?  Specifically I was wondering if other IM communication 
standards are going to be integrated so we are not an island of private 
chat?  Of course, having the option to not be a private world in 
some situations is a great option.


I see that most IM services today are going to a smart-client (x-internet) 
type application requiring software install.  Maybe Prolific's plan 
(I believe I recall anyway) to provide both a smart-client/web-client 
will be a plus.


With Google generating IM chatter in the computer world, just hope 
you don't miss the boat and can make an impact in the IM world when 
you release your updated product(s).

Performance issue with copying links: Set number of messages per 
group to a big number, say 5-10000, go to the View group and copy 
a link. It reacts very slowly before the OK dialog comes up. Click 
OK and it takes a few seconds to disappear.


Now copy some ordinary text by rightclicking on a chat entry, no 
performance problems.

Because AltME is not visible to the googlebots, it's also not visible 
to google ads .. think of the potential income a chat room could 
earn!

I'm still seeing you connected to Synapse chat though!

well, I'm OK with AltME. When using AltME, IRC, ICQ and Jabber, AltME 
is usually the one that connects first in a low bandwidth situation. 
But the killer feature for me is persistent chat logs, which has 
the side effect that if I post a problem, I can get response within 
minutes or hours. It's simply convenient to have running.

Grham ..Is it a coinsidence that I like FileSharing very much in 
your Chat Applet and its now inside Altme ? ;-)

Another thing is that private folders are visible to other people. 
I think their existence should be unknown, like chat groups

Mmm.. Some of these groups are web-public, so they are obtainable 
through the web here
http://www.rebol.net/altweb/rebol3/


otherwise with a bit of analysis maybe we could try to transplant 
some chat files over to your computer.

Just one question; what version of AltME do you have written at the 
top of your window ?

I think about a year ago we did a successful transplant. I just gave 
someone some chat files, they put it into the correct directory and 
it worked.

No problems, Reichart. Thor, I think Reichart means to go up to the 
chat settings icon (spanner and screwdriver icon at top-right) and 
change the "Message Limit ... Per chat room" field.

Here is a trick in syncing. There is a chat folder that has all the 
chat messages for each group are kept. Inside that folder is a file 
called chat55. If you delete a line entry from that file, the group 
that corresponds with that line will be resycnc like it was never 
been there before.

Sometimes I also see the "logon" status on some people who are actually 
chat with me.

Server reported error in chat because of: User does not exist

(with inbuild chat :)

Henrik wrote - "maybe I am just unlucky, but I managed to draw 4-5 
people into AltME, but they all left again. I can't exactly explain 
why. I suppose they were expecting a 100% feature complete ready-for-enterprise 
groupware system for free. the questions usually are "why don't we 
just use IRC or ICQ?".


They just didn't see the advantage. another factor could be that 
there already are many ordinary chat solutions available and they 
are tired of having to adopt yet another one."

I think it was caused by my setting message limit to 10000 per chat 
room so I could do some searching.

I changed it back to 100 per chat room, and now the problem is gone.

If you have bugs or minor enhancements (no majors accepted right 
now), be sure to report them using AltME feedback.  We do not scan 
this chat group (sorry, not enough time!)

actually synapse chat maintains a list of all you type .. but only 
the last message is accessible

Tried synching to the RebGUI discussion twice, but got disconnected 
at more or less the same percentage. Is it possible to have AltME 
download the "chat files" on a per "number of messages"  basis, instead 
of downloading the entire chat file in one session? That way people 
having synching problems like myself could at least download the 
messages from the discussion group a little at a time until the entire 
"chat file" is downloaded, rather than be frustrated when we get 
disconnected at 99% and retry synching again. It will also lessen 
the annoyance of other people seeing several dots made by the same 
poster.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

for the problem: See Chat group. :-) for the solution, maybe one 
could click on a quote button next to the timestamp on the item you 
wish to respond to. A single line could automatically be pasted with: 

Reichart said: "Give an example please."
enter text here

Invalid datatype during recycly, repeatedly, if I go to the chat 
group directly after start of altme. Let's see, if it remains the 
same after this post ...

Yes, I have a world running but it is just for personal chat between 
family and doesn't get used very often.

There is one other issue about archiving AltME chat - the conversations 
aren't threaded. You'd never know if a search took you to the beginning, 
middle or end of the information for which you were hunting.

I once tried to create a threading extension to the 'link chat. You 
had to click on a message, and then your message was tagged as an 
answer to the original.

ah, thanks ... I continue to discuss some aspects in blog-chat ...

Sunanda - OK, maybe rebol.org could add another button - IM community 
... and link to info about AltME, and also to rebol.net altme chat 
....

Hi, you did well by making this group web visible, I have no more 
time to chat on AltMe only checking sometime the web export of AltMe 
channels.

We're on the virge of having reasonable browser, email, chat and 
SDL games. I believe UAE is a priority for our project leader. :-)

ok, it's a bit funny, because some fonts are bigger, such as in the 
chat area, but headlines are smaller.

it's running: http://195.122.214.59/~hmm/flash-chat.html

So I can test my micro chat : http://195.122.214.59/~hmm/flash-chat.html

got to go. good chat. bye

only if you belong in the chit chat group!

I use IceApe; Debian's SeaMonkey.  email, browser, chat, calendar 
app (I never use the composer, have Quanta for that)  Because it's 
a be everything suite it's not the best at anything, but it's functional 
for me.

Is that the tune that  sounds like "God Save The King?"'   If there's 
a sugar maple blight, 'The Maple Leaf Forever' will sound lame ... 
and they'll never see the Eastern Townships annexed by Vermont.  
'CGI'  does stand for 'Chat Gateway Interfarce' doesn't it ?

that's the "chat and ask questions part"....

ok then... let me create a group for Remark and maybe that can be 
used as a common chat room.  then whoever feels enclined to do so 
can just compile the stuff in whatever means he like and we can start 
some collaborative work on the beast...

what we probably need is a weekend chat room

-----> Chat

I redone it completely ;) changing the way data was handled ...After 
a little chat with Vinxent it appears that sort algorithms would 
be easier to write if the data was handled by rows instead of beeing 
handled by row ;)

But we are Off topic here :-) Shouldn't we move to the "Chat" group 
?

Have a chat, if you haven't already, to Robert about the RPC as there 
may be some overlap in efforts. I'm more than happy to work with 
you to ensure RebGUI fits the proposed model (from both a code and 
documentation perspective). Some things to consider:

	- Coding standard(s)
	- Documentation standard(s)
	- Optimization methodology
	- Testing methodology
	- REBOL baseline (I'd aim for 1.3 - forget the past)


I've said this to a few people on AltME already, but for this type 
of project to succeed it needs four things:


 1) Technology (including a sound & easily understood conceptual basis)
	2) Documentation (good documentation is better than good code)
	3) Momentum (a sense that things are happening)

 4) Community (an environment where people are encouraged to contribute)


Getting all four right is *hard* work. *My* definition of success 
for a project is to be able to answer YES to the following two questions:

	1) Does it work?
	2) Is it used?

There's a new private chat group. I'll add you to it.

At this moment I'm testing it for logging messages into DB form this 
experimental chat I'm working on: http://box.lebeda.ws/~hmm/and 
it was running without problems, the chat is working and data stared. 
I will make more tests after I finish some app. design things.

I want to kick of some sort of simi-regular Rebol School for new 
comers.


We need to expose more people to Rebol, the best way is a 2 hour 
school online.


I'm thinking like the old days where we all jump online, but I want 
Video too!


My idea is that we would focus on a given topic, like: parse, data 
driven programming, view, etc.


Someone would be picked as the lead speaker, and someone else might 
be in charge of moderating the Chat.



People could ask for examples, and would write them up on the spot. 
 Hopefully many Rebol Experts would be on hand to throw some samples 
up.


I have about 5 newbies that really want lessons.  I know that another 
5-7 of my team would be present to help, to learn, to be friendly.

Any one else interested?
Anyone know the best way (what software) to do this?

It needs Chat (writte), Talk (Spoken), Video, and several Whiteboards, 
and a way to view somoeone's computer screen.

not sure if we should not use different Chnnel? Which one, as we 
will chat here, our request will scroll-off ....

I am just a bit scared, that you guys don't get your answers, or 
chat here with Carl ....

btw - what about restricting this channel to only Questions and answers? 
I mean - let's create even other group - RT QA chat

since I saw Unicode mentioned in the chat message....


I am putting in my "+1" request for Unicode support. eg. languages 
like Chinese

My synapse chat program also stores timestamps and needs the timezone 
so that other users not in NZ can translate the timestamp to local 
time.

I didn't expect to win the fight, but I wasn't really expecting to 
get pinned on the first move.  :)  But I'll struggle a little more. 
 In the long run I think the simplicity of the pure REBOL solutions 
(and a little careful manual (or scripted) management) will have 
fewer headaches than a larger full scale  ACID database (again in 
the small dataset arena).


My opinion may vary over time and over projects...but not today. 
  And sorry about clogging the SQLite chat.  rebols could well build 
up a fair amount of expertise with this engine given that  load/library 
is now open to all.

My chat client also runs in the plugin ...

If the chat client wipes your hard drive, consider it a security 
exploit!

graham, how do i register for an account with your chat program?

does my chat client work under firefox now?

ok, well... I've got to go, ciao brian, thanks for the chat.  :-)

Goodnight Josh. Good to chat with you.

My chat program still works...

Ok, thanks to hints from Volker, I got my chat working with the new 
plugin under firefox

I don't want to fragment this group, but one project I am working 
on now is the Console....so if you have any ideas for console improvements 
in R3.0 please let me know in private chat.

the plugin version i used wasnt the good one for the demo on the 
site, but i could use the chat on compkarori.  Can someone tell me 
how much version of the plugin exists and wich is the last stable 
one ?

maybe I could connect it with my chat server:]

moving to chat

and gmail chat

moving to chat group....

But it's a little bit out of topic chat:-)

you know... it doesn't have to be 4 hours of chat.

wishlist: laarge images seem to break gc, betterkey-supportwould 
 be nice, async"chat".

it has a  chat, meet  me and  i translate^^

But mainly  it shows  that  rebol can do some kind of adventure-graphic 
 and fast enough networking.

Hi James,


I've got 20 rooms set up already that I use to do live online music 
lessons on a daily basis.  I think the existing format of those rooms 
could work very well as they stand.  I'll create a special room just 
for Rebol Devcon.  I'd like to show you what I've got, to see if 
it'd work for your needs.  The audio/video conference software works 
on PC/Mac/Linux, in any browser that has a fairly recent version 
of the flash plugin installed (I believe version 6 onward will work 
- 8+ will definitely work).  Aside from flash, there's no installation 
required to use the system - just go to the designated web page. 
 It will allow anyone in the room to take turns jumping onto the 
mic/camera to speak (admin can ban unwanted users), there's a text 
chat, and I've got a really simple way of sharing screen shots already 
installed in the existing room setup.  It should take only a minute 
or 2 to show presenters how it works...


I've being doing daily live online music lessons as a part of my 
commercial music lesson business for the past 4.5 years, and this 
system is the most stable and simple that I'm aware of.  It'll work 
through just about any router/firewall configuration, and it's dead 
simple to use - visitors just go the url, and they'll hear and see 
the speaker.  If they want to be seen on camera and speak, they just 
need to have a web cam and microphone installed and working.  If 
flash is running in the browser, it'll work immediately, no download 
or installs to do.


There's a video that I send to students which explains a little about 
it:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sx5qI0GWig


The online lesson page for my business, which has basic info about 
web cams, microphones, and headphones, is here:

http://rockfactory.us/OnlineLessons.html

Please let me know if you have any questions :)


> If someone will email me personally, I can start putting together 
some 

> suggestions about how to organize and manage the presentation. 
 I need

> to get an idea of what sort of software components will be needed: 

> white board, text chat, file sharing, 1-to-many/many-to-many video 

> conferencing, etc...  I'd also need to get a close estimate beforehand

> of the number of people attending, to make sure I prepare enough 

> bandwidth and available connections for the live event (If you'd 
like,

> I've got a little Rebol sign-up script that I use in my business 
to 

> let people sign up for events, you're welcome to use that if you'd 

> like, to help organize things).  Please let me know whenever you 
get a 
> chance!
>
> - Nick Antonaccoio

==================
Current video list
==================

- Times Roman font is ugly

- Welcome page needs a better looking welcome page (put it in a nice 
standard box)
- Stealing Vista UI on video is a copyright infringement.

- Bottom controls (just under 3 video frames) were hidden when I 
first came in (I needed to pull the iframe down).
- "Who is online" needs to be a list on the left side.

- The chance to send video took about 3 minutes, so I did not see 
how to do this.  The video box should say it will do this for you 
at some point.
- Chat box shows "viewer n" as opposed to <name>
- Each iframe seems to come up too small.
- Chat buffer is too small (and allows too few characters.

- Echo is a big problem (Other systems have this problem, but TeamSpeak 
less than others).

==================
Current video list (ver 2)
==================

- What is the actual architecture here?

- Times Roman font is ugly

- Welcome page needs a better looking welcome page (put it in a nice 
standard box)
- Stealing Vista UI on video is a copyright infringement.

- Bottom controls (just under 3 video frames) were hidden when I 
first came in (I needed to pull the iframe down).
- "Who is online" needs to be a list on the left side.

- The chance to send video took about 3 minutes, so I did not see 
how to do this.  The video box should say it will do this for you 
at some point.
- Chat box shows "viewer n" as opposed to <name>
- Each iframe seems to come up too small.
- Chat buffer is too small (and allows too few characters.

- Echo is a big problem (Other systems have this problem, but TeamSpeak 
less than others).


= Screen shot capture = 


- Change [Download screen sender] to [Download Windows Screen Sender]. 
 Or just ad Windows icon.

- Add icons to all functions at bottom, like an upload icon for Upload.

- Rename [RockFactory] to same name as it thinks it is PNGShot.exe. 
 My virus catcher was NOT happy about this program running.

with text chat

Yes, broadcast/viewer is probably the best. But the other one with 
names in the chat and ability to ask for mic was nice too.

I'll get a better text chat together, with name :)

Nick, I hope that guest logins timeout, because closing the browser 
window makes your login inaccessible. Reloading the page orr even 
a refresh loses your login, and then leaves your old alias logged 
in, blocking any attempt to relogin with the same alias. There is 
currently a BrianH logged into presenter chat, so I hope you can 
log that ID out because I can't. Closing the window should log the 
person out.

The presenter chat interface is too tall to fit on a 1024x768 screen, 
let alone the 1024x600 on my netbook. It would help if you got rid 
of
  <tr> 
    <td align="center">&nbsp;</td> 
  </tr> 

that is above the row where the flash is embedded, or better yet 
replace the whole table with a
  <div style="text-align: center">...</div>

However, even when you reference the the flash itself, it has some 
kind of title at the top that pushes the interface down so far that 
you can't see the text entry field on a 1024x768 screen. This is 
a bug in the flash.

Someone should talk to Flotools and get their chat client UI fixed.

Flash lets you zoom in, but not zoom out - Flash UIs are expected 
to scale to fit the screen. The presenter chat UI does not scale.

Were you using the Presenter Chat interface for your broadcast, or 
the rooms interface? For that matter, do either of you use a laptop?

I'll copy my suggestions to someplace they won't be lost in the DevCon 
chat :)

BrianH: I am so serious about REBOL, that I almost can't bear, how 
this whole project is treated :-) What you do is cool. YOU are the 
top guru in our community nowadays, as Ladislav is not here. You 
mostly patch Core mezzanines, no? I try to urge Carl to get to the 
point of release, where sources are put into DevBase. I am also not 
much satisfied with r3-gui world - while top REBOL coders are there, 
they mostly don't contribute, they rather chat here ;-)

This has broadcast area on the left (comfortably fits 640x480), text 
chat on right - with name login (and private text/video/audio chat 
between any audience members), links include a file area, with file 
area, and a separate text/video/audio room for random group discussions. 
  According to today's activities, this should satisfy our needs.

Is there a tool to demo an app so everyone can see it? (like remote 
desktop or "go to meeting"). 

I understand there will be video and audio and chat, screen grab 
and display. Anything I missed?

Thanks Sunanda, looks good and functional.  I would be very interested 
in attending the devcon as a viewer, at what time will this be going 
on? I looked at past chat but didn't notice it.

Hi Janko and RobertS :)  I added your names to the list of attendees. 
  The event will take place at 3pm EST December 27th, at http://rockfactory.us/rooms/room22
 .  As stated, user/pass is devcon/devcon  (those pages will all 
be deleted after the event, and I'll be monitoring to kick/ban unwanted 
visitors from any of the chat/audio/video communications as needed, 
so that first line of security is not a big concern - it's primarily 
just to deter random lookee-loos :)

It's above in this chat.

Were using the chat built into the website correct instead of ALTME?

I'd think this is a better channel for the chat.....At least for 
the stuff you want published on the web.

Reichart says better for him to chat via altme.....either this group 
(which is public) or the private group.
Other presenters may prefer other ways of interacting with them.