AltME groups: search

Situations like that are why DevBase and chat are integrated now.

Finally some simple thread reading ability in Chat:

3928

lr will display all messages related to that thread.

j will jump to the previous message in the thread.

Progress milestones:

Single graphics engine
VID3.4
Unicode
Tasks
Modules
Built-in chat system
Built-in open source management

Completely redesigned ports (fully documented and ready to use, you 
protocol writers)

When finished:


Fixing almost every deficiency that R2 has through 10 years of use 
by expert developers.

I hope you never put "built-in chat system" as a milestone on Slashdot...

Gabriele - why not? The chat system is more powerfull than that of 
AltME, and I find AltME usefull, although it has its limitations. 
Once we create GUI for it, it will allow for some nice simple IM 
stuff. Why do you think SlashDot ppl would have problem with it?

At least don't call it a "chat system" without the description "direct 
hotline to the main developer", as that line would stand out and 
make people think it's a joke

R3 chat heading #1318 is the place to be having this discussion.

Sweet. Post those links in R3 chat #1318 - Carl is there now.

you want me to understand R3 chat that I never used in 5mins? ;)

BrianH: already requested earlier today on R3 Chat :-)

you can talk to carl about the fact that you need them, in r3 chat. 
 I'm there yet but if you explain that you're doing worthwhile stuff, 
he might just  put them back... until the better funcs are put in 
place...

I wonder how he resolved the problem he advised in R3 Chat, that 
with his initial idea not everything could be dynamic (draw). Hopefully 
he found some solution.

same name as in chat

continuing discussion in I'm new group...


brian: no R3 chat account yet... its basically that I'm keeping my 
energy.  I really would love to participate more in R3 but since 
most of what I do is commercial (REBOL), time invested in R3 is severely 
lost in the short to medium term.


but I think its now progressed enough that I really should participate 
more.  


I think I have a lot of insight to bring to the table since I'm one 
of those few developpers who has been using REBOL commercially for 
just about ever, I've been using a module clone for the last 7-8 
years,  built 4 complete view engines (even ported glayout to python 
;-),  implemented some of the largest apps (code wise), and have 
several dozen REBOL APIs under my belt.

for example i would like to make it something like 1 color for server 
messages then 1 color for each chat you enter in

perhaps it's a bit too many fixes for one release. one part of chat 
is mysteriously broken right now.

Henrik - I just use: chat .... n .... lm :-)

Maybe it would be get to post your idea to R3 Chat, R3/Datytypes 
section, or as a wish to CureCode, as Carl will not be able to read 
it here ....

Here's a good place for that kind of chat.

where's the src to the r3 chat server?

btw - I can see some new users in R3 Chat - it is a good sign. From 
the point of RT - are you still contacted by new users/companies? 
Is there any interest in R3? Sometimes I feel that we are unnoticed 
:-)

R3 Chat #4395:
  

Re #1890: Question on DO/next: currently, it returns a block as a 
result. That means it must allocate a new block each time. An alternative 
would be to provide a variable name as an argument, and it would 
not need to allocate a new block each time.

   result: do/next block1 'block2

It would also be possible to:

   result: do/next block 'block

Something to think about.

See R3 Chat #4403 regarding how to get new R3 to test DO/next.

I think proposing a collaborative real time tool for making rebol 
script is a good idea as a leading project to make every one acquiere 
or show high level skills. That's in my opinion more productive than 
having Gurus explaining to stupid morons like me things during weeks 
with no concrete result to it.  Sooooooooooo I propose to KEEP IT 
SIMPLE. Instead of explaining me the solution take half of the time 
you normally use to answer me to edit my script make the changes 
and then ofcourse we can have a nice chat on why you used that and 
not this and that will make my level progress a lot. And most important 
of all the problem and my project will be solved and working.

I think R3 chat would be better suited for this. It would theoretically 
be possible to create twitter like feeds.

Carl was the one who was complaining about the status updates overwhelming 
the chat in the first place.

hm.... i don't think so, all the remaining messages are sent after 
each sync in the CHAT

The chat protocoll doesn't know how to request a specific message 
from the server, all is loaded in local and the requests are performed 
in your client memory

The R3 chat protocol (as it is now) is not suited for real chatting 
with a massive exchange of short messages between users or specific 
channel.
Because each time you sync, all is loaded in local.

Another drawabck, if an existing user launch the chat from another 
one place (another directory, disk, or computer), the all the database 
is loaded again in local

Only if they are mirrored to chat, which they currently aren't (thankfully).

loading http://twitter.com/rebol3here is a 14 kb webpage for 8 messages, 
excluding images, so it's probably 20-30 kb each time you want to 
read it. With the information amount we want, R3 Chat can probably 
deliver over 200 times more messages in the same bandwidth, assuming 
that each message is < 140 chars. And also R3 chat only retrieves 
them once. After that, they're local. Twitter loses. :-)

Not really a problem for R3 chat, but a big problem for AltME.

but i read in rebol.com that a gui for rebol chat will be proposed 
!!! normaly in february 2009 "Resume work on the R3 GUI. The primary 
focus needs to be on styles for lists and tables." (carryover)."

and for MARCH 20009 "The R3 GUI has been running for several months, 
but it needs a few more key components. For example, we can ask why 
the new DevBase (RebDev chat) runs in the console, not in the GUI. 
The reason is simple: the GUI does not yet have an efficient table 
display style. So, although it does have dozens of other widgets, 
a way to display and scroll large message lists is really the key 
here. I will be happy if this can be accomplished this month, and 
we can begin using the R3 GUI for an actual application."

Isn't R3 chat server running on R3?

I also need to get myself an account for the R3 chat.

I'll poke him with that when I get to enabling my R3 chat later on.

Janko: did you post it to the R3 chat too?  - may be better for Carl 
than this place

thanks .. I am not on R3 chat. I don't use R3 and R2 has enough secrets 
to discover for me still

Cool - we need as much help as we can get. I'm glad he participates 
in the chat too, and his testing has been very helpful.

In any case, this chat should be the basis for the docs that go with 
it. People aren't aware of how much thought goes into these things.

put it to R3 chat, Carl may honor your request

posted to R3/Parse thread on R3 Chat ...

Ah, you're meijeru, cool. Nice to chat with you :)

First plugin example posted to Chat. You can get it going to:

1) chat
2) 5045
3) get *

I am going to wait for answers to the questions in R3 chat #5126 
to finalize my changes. I've already worked out the integration, 
but a few policy/informational matters need to be addressed.

more interesting stuff on Chat :-) I expressed opinion, that we use 
assymetry for read and write with strings, Carl objected. His second 
post might be interesting for you, as he for few moments thought, 
where is the right place for such stuff. I think that you would enjoy 
putting your opinion there. Of course - my post was done just to 
provoke some discussion :-)

as for Chat - is there any shortcut to know, where I am posting by 
default? I mean - the only commands I use is "n" for new posts. The 
I want to add a reply. But adding a reply is different then simply 
posting "p". But - when adding a reply "r", I specify the message 
number, so I can be sure, where it goes. But where does simple "p" 
post it?

posted a note about it in R3 chat... just to see his reaction  :-)

When I perform get * in R3 Chat, I can see some files are not probably 
updated locally? I can see:


--- Note: work file changes would be lost, skipped: work/r3/mezzanines/mezz-intrinsics.r

--- Note: work file changes would be lost, skipped: work/r3/mezzanines/mezz-load.r


Does it mean those files were not updated on my machine? I did no 
changes locally.

Then good luck to RT, as they should find another mechanism, of how 
to physically isolate various components. With View, there si event 
queue involved, so I wonder, how the eventual split so that you "import 
View can be done. While I like REBOL.dll idea and its isolation, 
I don't like one homogenic Host portion code. It will lead to tonnes 
of various releases. Any ideas here? Could extension isolation interface 
be used for Host code and its componentes? Or are there different 
requirements? I will probably post to R3 Chat, to provoke some ideas 
from Carl. So just stop me, if you think that what I am asking is 
eventually very obvious :-)

ok, posted Chat questions and suggestion for blog article describing 
"REBOL packaging methods"

No callbacks yet. Max proposed interesting solution - one mezzanine 
dispatcher for one extension handler. You can see his proposals in 
R3 Chat realated topic. As for threading - dunno. There are simply 
still some features missing, e.g. it is not clear how to work with 
Devices yet, but I only parrot what BrianH said, so better wait for 
gurus to give you some real answers :-)

It seems OSX A82 is more stable. It can at least launch chat.

... or we work with what we've got, which covers your requests, albeit 
a bit more complexly, otoh without the need to introduce new word-type 
:-) As for your second point, I want to have freedom to clone/share 
anywhere, not just whery system prescribes me to do so (subobject). 
You can post your comment to R3 Chat, to see what Carl thinks. Hopefully 
some other ppl will comment here ... especially Max ... where's MAX, 
when you need him? :-)

Robert - do you need such lazy evaluation? I mean - even 'alias seems 
being removed from R3. Don't we have enough of reflectivity? Anyway 
- anyone who imo wants to propose something, should definitely do 
so in terms of CureCode or R3 Chat, or Carl WILL NOT know about the 
request at all, and your only chance here will be BrianH :-)

Max just proposed interesting way to implement utypes on R3 chat.

Carl`s reaction on the R3 chat wrt callbacks sort of seems to imply 
that he likes my callback idea and it might make the cut for extensions. 
 crossing my fingers.

I was quite keen on the plugin .. I wrote a chat client, and a fax 
editor to run under the plugin.

Max - in R3 Chat you requested user types and set/get function accessors. 
I am not good in internals, but aren't such set/get functions the 
same as 'action types?

if we don't close networking, we might allow ppl to use R3 chat :-)

see the system/catalog/codecs for a list of loaded codecs

 - hmm, docs need an update. Dunno why the section was moved to system/codecs 
 ... will ask on R3 chat ...

BrianH: I know Carl, and I know what I am talking about. You'll see 
- it happened several times already in the past. The group discussing 
stuff xy, and RT rushing things into "final stage". And you are wrong 
- there was no single public reaction to either user-types or concurrency, 
and as for callbacks, we can only guess by reading between the line 
of one single Chat msg.

(off topic sorry - move to ~Chat).

Maybe you can ping Carl on Chat on that, because otherwise he might 
get scared to read the doc :-) Curious about what you choose for 
the priority ...

BrianH: Carl asked me, that if I want some of following implemented/noticed, 
we should put them to the parse document. I gathered them in R3 chat. 
So - I would like to open short discussion about following proposals:
------------------

I would like to ask, what will happen to proposals, which are not 
part of the do

cument? I mean - I do remember following kind of proposals, which 
are discussed
in parent thread:


1) make /all option be the default parse mode. If I want to get really 
reliable
results, I always use /all, to be safe


2) there was some proposal to add /space, or /ignore, to allow easier 
parsing of

 CSV, etc., but other proposal was, that it might be better to let 
 it to the enc
oder/decoder level


3) there was a proposal to allow quoting of "", to make parsing easier.

in R3 chat is there a way to read through the new posts sequentially? 
 its very tedious to access new stuff when its all spread around.

R3 Chat, type "n" for new messages, and "lm" to list the messages. 
It is generally enough to be able to participate. For reply, just 
type the msg number you want to reply to, and type "p" to post to 
the thread, or "r" to reply to such a message ...

Sometimes it is difficult for me to understand - most devs here are 
gurus being able to handle 100times more complex systems, yet they 
refuse to use Chat :-)

I don't mind the text chat.  its just not really effective at handling 
large volumes of posts.

Don't worry - a chat GUI is planned.

Brian - what is your "parse ports" proposal like? I noticed you mentioned 
it in one Chat reply, that you might know, how to parse ports in 
future?

Chat ... it was about callbacks IIRC and some ideas ...

In R3 chat, plls a referenced web address.

#5045 in Chat ...

so why just not to chat upon some areas and fill in already good 
project-plan?

Carl - R3 Chat is not nowhere, no? It was created to be a developer's 
tool too. But - we can make projects-plan.html a wiki page, so we 
can edit it and fill it with detail?

Pekr: what do you mean "R3 Chat is not nowhere, no?"

Carl - because you said you need more than particular thread posted. 
So I replied, that R3 Chat was supposed to be a streamlined and isolated 
Dev comm channel for us, and as such is not "nowhere", but now I 
can see I mixed two your replies, so forget it ...

so what should we do? Suggest some stuff we think should be in-there 
for beta? But where to suggest it? Most interested ppl are here, 
not just right now. So we can collect some stuff, and post it to 
you "somewhere" - maybe R3 chat Priorities group?

I suspect community involvement in R3 will increase once there's 
a modern communication channel.  Asking people to participate in 
some shell based chat is really retro.

about chat ... i always said it was hard to have a precise location 
of interresting exchanges ... but that's the same in altme...  in 
fact any discussion here or in chat when it pops out interresting 
ideas should then be resume into a temporary task list  but ... that's 
normal most of the time discussion here are mixed we don't only propose 
enhancements we try to figure out how things works then  we try to 
give how things could or should be working in order to make our lifes 
easier... It's a difficult task to keep tracks on every good idea 
passed throught altme or Chat  system...

Shadwolf, all of my contributions to R3 and R2 have been in the open 
source portions, which is already a significant fraction of REBOL. 
This source has been open for a year at least, effectively. In that 
time, having the source open has brought the code contributions of 
a couple people. This is what I mean when I say that opening the 
source isn't some magic trick that will get you help.


In that same time period, the introduction of CureCode, R3 chat and 
DocBase have led to huge amounts of contributed help, more testers 
finding more bugs than we ever would have found without them. Those 
contributions have been extremely valuable. However, none of them 
were related to opening the source.


Now, I am all in favor of opening the source, but I am in favor of 
it for social, business and convenience reasons. I have no illusions 
that it will get more than a few people to contribute though. And 
read-only licenses are the worst of all, because anybody who wants 
to actually do anything with what they might learn from reading the 
code is usually legally prohibited from reading the code, to prevent 
accidental copyright infringement.

Carl wikified the project plan - http://rebol.com/r3/docs/project.html


I am now suggesting the following aproach - to create October plan, 
describing R3 beta release. My proposal is to discuss particular 
items here and on chat, but the main channel should be blog. There 
we can post our priority lists. Once agreed, we edit the doc.


So hopefully soon enough, we open the discussion. We might already 
start, but save your comments for the blog. This group is moving 
fast with discussions, maybe we could set-up (temporarily?) an R3 
priorities group, and each of us could post his numberred/bulleted 
list of requested features? It would be then easier for Carl to look, 
or for us to gather ideas and repost them to blog, etc.

What do you think?

The permissions for the manual wiki are based on the R3 chat user 
rank. I don't know what the cutoff is to get editing privileges.

I tried putting a small draft of it earlier but the R3 wiki didn't 
let me... left a not on R3 chat, I'll see Carl's reply.

Both fine on my Untu and XP. Whatever.. BTW, was there ever a chat 
about assert {}   I am spending some time in Groovy and thinking 
about the errors in a Rebol book: the Manny Groovy book was generated 
so at least the code examples run ... groovy uses assert a a good 
deal ... which got me to thinking about REBOL  comment {}  which 
seems to suggest that we could have an assert {}  which is evaluated 
only when a REBOL option is set. and have it default to OFF

In addition, there are modules like Chat that are not bundled. Those 
are compressed modules, that download on demand.

How to further isolate following hard-crash?

limit: ["123"] parse "123" [limit]
chat

I also am trying to simulate other crash. When there is slow network 
connection, and e.g. downloading new R3 fails, and then I Call 'chat, 
R3 crashes too ... it happened to me several times, but I can't reproduce 
it now ...

Being able to say No was a really big deal. It is why we had to build 
our own VCS and developer communications infrastructure, with moderation 
and ranking built in. We didn't have the benefit of years or decades 
of established community development, like Perl or Python - we had 
to do this from scratch. The only way we have been able to make such 
ambitious changes so quickly and cleanly is through some group discipline 
and politeness, and that means we need to have a counter-pressure 
against flame wars and development fights. We would have never managed 
to get this far without DevBase (R3 chat) and CureCode :)

Does Chat system work? Mine shows off-line ...

Gabriele, be sure to post the correct url parsing code here or in 
R3 chat. We will be sure to get it integrated into R3. Or you could 
integrate it yourself if you like. If there need to be specific changes 
to the url syntax as accepted by TRANSCODE, please note them here 
or in CureCode. Proper url handling is important, and now is the 
time to fix it.

Jerry, why do you think that people who have problems with REBOL 
name will not have same problems with any other name? I think that 
changing name will not make things easier. They will be scared in 
the same way. Mostly that   using something new is hazardous. For 
example if you are the only one in the company who knows how to program 
in REBOL, what if you will have some incident suddenly? This is nothing 
what renaming can solve. Anyway, such a discussions are usualy in 
Advocacy chat.

where can I get the code to R3 chat?  I know where is the data, but 
not where is the source to the whole chat app.

>> source chat
chat: make function! [[
    "Open REBOL DevBase forum/BBS."
    /local err
][
    print "Fetching chat..."
    if error? err: try [do http://www.rebol.com/r3/chat.rnone] [

        either err/id = 'protocol [print "Cannot load chat from web."] [do 
        err]
    ]
    exit
]]

ah, ok, I didn't think it got it from the net at each instance... 
I was going to source the chat func in a few minutes... hehehe

only Carl can answer that, but so far only a few of us have it . 
  to keep support noise low and freedom of alteration high.

you'll have to ask Carl privately on R3 chat.

Well, if you have any questions that aren't covered by CureCode, 
ask them here, in R3 chat, or post them in CureCode. Keep in mind 
that a ticket being dismissed in CureCode is nothing to be taken 
personally - we like those tickets because they serve as documentation 
of design decisions, especially in their comments.