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For instance, there is at least one bug report for R3 related to 
increasing the number of delimiters that should be rejected because 
implementing it would drastically reduce the readability of code 
written in any Rebol family language. If Red implemented that proposal 
it would be a bad thing for Red as well for the same reasons.

 -- my proposal is to write a special AI filter that checks for each 
 word user writes and resists to evaluate it if it reduces the readibility 
 of code. IMHO we surely can't say that ony specific delimiter reduces 
 readibilty and anything else a stupid programmer might cobble together 
 with the ones left doesn't  <-ironic .. I hoped the comma wars won't 
 have to continue in Red also :(

Andreas, yes exactly these considerations are important because the 
sore temptation could lead into an overload and therefore polluted 
R3 with embedded extensions beyond a usefull 'R3 with batteries included' 
;-) 

there are tons of usefull libs and free code out there, compression, 
crypto, text processing, serialisation, image manipulation, audio, 
math, ai and very important;  db connectors. filling these areas 
step by step is a lot of work but I think it's worth. As soon R3 
has reached a stable structure (couple of weeks I think) a new bounty 
system should be established for extensions we need but haven't the 
time or skills to create those. Just now I started with a simple 
one to get a feeling for the handling and any advise in this is highly 
appreciated.

again, the reason is that it is impossible to come up with a general 
solution, and that this is a UI issue and NOT a language issue. unless 
you throw in AI, "language" for a computer cannot be the same as 
"language" for a human.

so, either we have AI, and the computer can figure out what a human 
means when reading the text the human wrote (but it'll have to ask 
questions most of the times! like when a human is talking to another 
human), or it can only be a specilized thing (eg. a date field that 
tries to be "smart" - but that's just a big set of rules)

I think that your answer is too abstract :-) All that guys wanted 
was - any known rebol datatype should be recognised, and the rest 
should be assigned under junk! or similiarly named datatype. What 
is AI about that? :-)

Gabriele; no sorry; I guess I obfuscated my point too much with the 
money! example.  I don't want REBOL to figure out all the possible 
human combinations of money.  I want REBOL to load a value that we 
humans commonly use as a format of money, without a syntax error. 
  The make phase would create a foreign data value and keep going. 
  Let the gurus that write general applications worry about the math 
operations on junk and account for it.  But let a professor load 
his book and use the uber powerful series operations of REBOL for 
ad hoc analysis.   No AI involved here, just a feature of the language 
that "if a piece of source does not match one of the lexically strict 
57 datatypes, it floats in a REBOL block as foreign".    And foreign 
is similar but not quite exactly the same as quoting the text as 
string!, without need of quoting the text.   I see great power in 
this feature.


Excuse the poor example;   I misdirected my intention when I mentioned 
that arg1 had a good hint, my mistake (but I would if I had brains, 
include this hint as a subfield of foreign! data, just because, why 
not, the current lexical parser already made a guess).  Our good 
Mr Hawley has a plan for a LOAD refinement /else with a type spec 
that looks very promising, but then it leads to being able to distinguish 
actual quoted input from coerced input, so I still lean toward foreign.


My plan (and I place burden of foreign! management for CODE blocks 
to the gurus) would let normal people load any data and run with 
it.  Even it they only use 4 or 5 REBOL functions at the console, 
the potential userbase becomes orders of magnitude greater than what 
we have today.   That it turn opens up a few that will write concise 
clear time lasting code that could analyze books or the sum of human 
knowledge using our favourite thinking environment.  No?

any known rebol datatype should be recognised, and the rest should 
be assigned under junk! or similiarly named datatype. What is AI 
about that?

 Telling the different between a REBOL value and "the rest" is AI. 
 If you can without AI, then "the rest" is defined with a specific 
 parse rule... then you can just use string parsing, and it's not 
 a human language anymore but a specific language you just designed.

IMO, designing a good DSL is far more difficult than writing parse 
rules.


I think that ppl here are underestimating the complexity of implementing 
a jump-over-foreign-data feature that would work in the general case. 
REBOL syntax is not based only on whitespaces, but on delimiters 
too : double-quotes, curly and square brackets, parenthesis,.... 


So it's perfectly valid to not use whitespaces at some places, like 
in : "either conditon [true][false]". So what should LOAD do in case 
of, e.g. : "either condition [f,o,r,e,i,g,n,0,1][false]" ? IMHO, 
besides reporting a syntax error at "f," , there's no much point 
returning [either condition "[f,o,r,e,i,g,n,0,1][false]"]. And if 
you think that LOAD could just return [either condition ["f,o,r,e,i,g,n,0,1"][false]], 
then you just jumped over the complexity by creating some syntax 
rules in your mind, but LOAD can't do that. Once LOAD has passed 
the syntax error point, it has no sure way to determine where the 
foreign data ends and where REBOL correct syntax starts again. That 
would require at least, an AI engine (like Gabriele stated above). 
I'm not even sure that all possible cases could be covered that way.


Btw, does such feature exists in any other programming language? 
I've personally never seen or read about such feature elsewhere, 
maybe for a good reason.

I still vote for foreign!  as a datatype.  Sure there will still 
be reasons for throwing errors on evaluation on foreign! but I don't 
like the fact that the errors occur on load.

Give linguists a tool that out-of-the-box can load a poem and let 
them count characters, words, and transitions.


Let REBOL pros worry about the hassles of evaluation.   Re: where 
the foreign data ends; Skip AI, just go with delimiters.  Whitespace 
or quotes or any of the braces etc.  And if a missing quote causes 
a script to fail ... well bad on the coder for not testing before 
release.  If the English professor gets wonky counts, well let them 
figure it out, but give them the wonky counts not a LOAD failure. 
 IMHO it really would open the door to so many more uses and users. 
 


And with Steeve's example ... build something like that into the 
product.  Don't make poor Professor Keating try and figure out why 
most of the Dead Poet's prose can't be analysed with REBOL's nifty 
cool block data functions.


And as long as REBOL had foreign! as a native datatype, writing a 
LINT would be dirt easy.

and that even one of the ways to evaluate the intelligence of an 
AI how many time it will spend before saying supid things or repeating 
itself

s2: copy a parse/all s2 [some [p: "^/" (change/part p "^^/" 1) skip 
| "^-" (chang
e/part p "^^-" 1) skip | skip]]
== true
>> s2
== {a^^/^^-b^^/^^-c}
>> print s2
a^/^-b^/^-c


Anton, It looks like what I want but if aI print it the newlines 
are not reconized???

well good night efishant ai'm burned here it's ùùè oclock in the 
morning see you later ;)

Maxim, it's to blame on the AI mongerers who implanted that thought 
in the public's mind in the previous century :-)

RebTower 0.1.5 - small fix to stop player/ai loops using 100% cpu 
- thanks doc ;)
Full version: http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/rebtower.zip(661kb)

Update version (from 0.0.7 upwards): http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/rebtower.r
(34kb)

New 'opt-in' group created for the Cheyenne - Framewerks Project


This FOSS project is a port of Redwerks CMS system (http://redwerks.org) 
to use Cheyenne rather than Apache. Continued exploration of AI / 
NLP using LFReD, AtomDB and other techs with Cheyenne to build the 
next generation of web servers.

Send me a request to me directly if you would like to join.

you will always need good programmers


We strongly disagree, in fact the time of no need for programmers 
is probably closer than we (programmers) want. 


AI will one day be good enough to solve domain problems.  The architecture 
of computer systems will be self correcting, responsive, and self 
writing one day.


Software will fix itself in response to millions if not billions 
of people reacting to using it, and it will slowly and systematically 
correct itself, improve itself, and even offer new features simply 
for test.  In other words, software will eventually self evolve.

I know I'm not saying anything revolutionary... but "programming" 
has always been around us.  and since we will foreseeably continue 
to use machines... we'll always do so in the future... I only guess 
that in 50 years, we'll be making AI apps which learn concepts.  
and the interface to these systems will be more easy to use... but 
there will always be people who do work for others...

Reichart, about AI, if the AI does the programming, then the AI is 
the programmer. Note, that I don't see any reason why we should not 
consider the AI a "person". (if we don't, and the AI eventually kills 
all of us, I won't blame "it")

its funny (or rather not) cause I see no point in developping AI 
within the confines of an economy.  once a true AI "conscience" will 
be feasible. we suddenly loose the need for "employes".  just like 
the romans soldiers, at one point, didn't have any new lands to conquer, 
so basically a big social rift was caused.

Reichart, I wouldn't worry too much. What you're talking about require 
true AI, and we're not even close to have that. First we need computer 
technology based on quantum physics, then we need someone to build 
the system. I don't see this happen any time soon.

I'm not worried at all, and I'm privy to project in AI that are already 
demonstrating very impressive results.  


Systematic automation of a large quantity of currently menial jobs 
will occur in dramatic proportions in the next 50 years.


Where are the secretaries of yesterday?  The banks and rooms of young 
ladies typing away?


Several years ago the FDIC (American banking overview group), mandated 
Electronic fund transfer over paper.  Who suffered?  10,000 pilots 
lost their jobs.  Since they were not union, no one made a fuss in 
the news.  They used to fly boxes of receipts from place to place.


Instead of asking what jobs will be lost, think of it in terms of 
what jobs are people currently doing that simply don't need to be 
done a person.


It is so odd to me how people (even smart people) hold on to the 
past like a dog with an old bone.


No AI was needed to replace these jobs.  Are these young ladies without 
work?  Are all these lads no longer flying.  NOPE.


There are more jobs for people that can type than any time in history. 
 And pilots are in huge demand, as the prices of private planes have 
dramatically fallen (Honda is releasing a plane!) the private executive 
sector has grown.

but real AI has the potential to replace a majority of jobs.  that 
is the issue... not just a type of job.  AI means downloadable and 
infinitely replicatable things you purchase once and abuse forever.

obviously one will say that you will have more AI tech and robot 
techs... but  when you look at the textile industry... in america, 
the places which make profit have very little employes.  apply this 
to the whole manufacturing process... where you don't need to build 
costly custom equipment but rather a generic worker bot.  then it 
start getting a bit scarier... my guess is that the countries with 
the most to loose with AI are places like india and china... which 
the west is using as an equivalent to AI.

I am not fearing real AI, but other aspect around it. It is job - 
dehumanisation as a result of globalisation.

AI is a radical change, and as such, it could shake things enough 
to let people out of the Matrix.

It's grwat that AI is replacing

It's great that AI is replacing jobs. We don't live in 19th century 
where our grand-grand-fathers destroyed machines because they took 
their jobs away. But, please, can somebody write some AI to replace 
middle management? I don't think it's hard to write something that 
does forward emails, produces lot of useless *.XLS and *.PPT, does 
not understand a bit of what the team is doing and in the end collects 
bonus for the team's work.

Oh I see, there's the problem. The AI couldn't probably collect the 
bonus and paying to people who actually did some work is not in the 
interest of succesful, young & dynamic company.

Adaptive A.I. Inc. launches commercial AGI-based virtual agent for 
call centers

Playa del Rey, California
January 12, 2009


Adaptive A.I. Inc. (a2i2) today released its first commercial product 
based on its artificial general intelligence (AGI) technology under 
development since 2001. It is a virtual call center operator that 
promises to propel speech-based interactive voice response (IVR) 
systems to much higher levels of performance.


Known as the SmartAction™ IVR System, it being sold and supported 
by a2i2’s recently formed commercial subsidiary, the Smart Action 
Company LLC.


The system is based on a2i2’s LiveAGI™ engine. Its integrated language 
processing, reasoning, memory, and knowledge-base capabilities allow 
it to hold smart, productive conversations. The LiveAGI brain manages 
conversation flow, meta-cognitive state (such as mood, degree of 
certainty and surprise), and determines when clarification or live-agent 
assistance is needed. Its built-in intelligence also allows the system 
to be taught new skills and knowledge, instead of these having to 
be custom programmed. Existing skills include email, as well as web 
and database interaction.


To achieve beyond state-of-the-art voice interaction, top of the 
line speech recognition technology is tightly integrated with the 
AGI brain to provide bi-directional benefits: The speech engine is 
dynamically tuned to current conversation context, while the cognitive 
engine analyzes multiple speech hypotheses for the most likely meaning 
and resolves ambiguities.


These innovations combine to provide solutions that significantly 
reduce the number of routine – and frequently boring and poorly handled 
-- calls taken by human agents while improving customer service levels. 
In addition to providing expected IVR capabilities such as 24/7 availability, 
consistent service quality, and the capacity to handle surges in 
call traffic, the SmartAction IVR System offers personalized responses 
by remembering the caller’s preferences, previous calls and other 
relevant data. Applied over multiple calls, callers don’t have to 
answer the same questions every time they call. If a call is interrupted, 
the system can call the customer back and pick up the conversation 
where it left off.


The company offers the SmartAction IVR System both as a hosted service 
and an in-house hardware-software turnkey solution. A web-based chat 
version is also available.


The ultimate purpose of a2i2’s LiveAGI Brain is to enable a major 
transformation of human-computer interfaces for a broad range of 
applications, such as websites, search engines, console and online 
games, virtual worlds, enterprise software, and consumer products. 
The company is currently researching and developing these applications, 
and under certain conditions will consider creating commercial versions 
in the near term.

About Adaptive AI, Inc.


Adaptive A.I. Inc. was founded in 2001 with the mission of researching, 
developing and commercializing far-reaching inventions in artificial 
general intelligence. Its founder, Peter Voss, has an accomplished 
career as an entrepreneur, inventor, engineer and scientist. His 
contributions to artificial general intelligence cover the fields 
of cognitive science, philosophy and theory of knowledge, psychology, 
intelligence and learning theory, and computer science.

www.adaptiveai.com    www.SmartAction.com

Adrian, there was an article about it that points out how it's not 
really AI, but rather a system that can compute answers. it is surely 
a breakthrough and it's going to change our lives maybe... but that 
is sort of like google, in that it is a support tool for intelligence, 
not intelligence. that is, it is a tool that intelligent beings use. 
so, AI systems will find things like Google and Wolfram Alpha extremely 
useful, because they allow independent learning (without humans having 
to teach).

I didn't mean to imply that it was AI - I don't know if what AdaptiveAI 
uses "real" AI despite their name (though it's hard to tell from 
the info on the site). I was just thinking that they might use similar 
approaches and was curious to know if Reichart's friend who works 
there was possibly an acquaintance of Stephen Wolfram's.

Ai, I'm not interested in the SOAP interface, either

It's called a "Pseudo-Relational Database" for a good reason. ;)


But in answer to Pekr's previous point; *you* can work out *how* 
to do that aggregation more efficiently than the limited AI of most 
RDBMS systems. I've worked at DB2 and Oracle shops where it was mandated 
that all JOINs be performed inline! SQL optimizers are not trivial 
to write, and the meta-data overhead (indexes, statistics, hints, 
etc) required to get them to make the "right" choices are often a 
false economy.

j'ai deja du mal a me maintennir a flot sur paris si je dois bouger 
sur lyon je vais devoir dormir sous un pont ...

a noter (ds les headers poste ds group Cheyenne) le premier redirect 
envoie:
Cache-Control: no-cache, no-store, max-age=0, must-revalidate
Pragma: no-cache
Expires: Fri, 01 Jan 1990 00:00:00 GMT
le deuxieme:
Expires: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 21:43:59 GMT
Cache-Control: private, max-age=0
a noter aussi, le premier envoie aussi:
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
mais pas de Content-Length
le deuxieme envoie:
Content-Encoding: gzip
Content-Length: 232
et pas de Content-Type

.. un vrai mess.. normalment j'ai confiance en google, ils sont tres 
peeki mais la je comprends pas

Its close to AI...

Just out of curriosity, is there any existing relation to Intelligent 
(AI) software, 3th party software, with this concept?

add an AI to this and you can get pretty cool long term solo playing 
with an infinite range of playability.

but its doable.  every game out there is an implementation of this 
concept... with preset rules, preset AI, and loaded graphics.  basically, 
all that is needed (like in the matrix) is to define the construct 
(laws of physics and rule set which can be exposed and perceived 
by the agents).

RebTower (Old School MTG based card game) almost complete - just 
finishing deck art and AI for computer player.  http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/rebtower-wip.jpg

The AI isi proving to be a pain :)  I keep thinking - "What would 
i do next" .. takes ages :(

RebTower Demo available at: http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/rebtower-demo.zip
   - non demo version should hopefully be out in a couple of days 
once I get the artwork finalised and the AI beaten into shape.  Current 
demo plays computer vs computer in simulation mode.

from the stupid menu and useless extra screens (which are slow to 
load, pointless, irritate and can't be turned off), to the cosmically 
idiotic AI which repeatedly slams your car if you dare get into the 
driving line until it eventually drives you out of the road wtf?... 
funny that they don't bounce out... did the authors forget the basic 
laws of physics... the same force is applied to both objects in a 
collision.


I mean like come one.  even GT3, 15 years ago, was more fun and actually 
felt a lot more real in many things.


the braking is ridiculous and many times, cars just spin out of control 
completely randomly.  NASCAR racing is totally bullshit.

Reichart: I'm playing "IGoWin" from David Fotland which has good 
AI (or my "AI" is not good :) ).

It is not an online game but you can test yourself with computer. 
As I heard it plays dan level. 
http://www.smart-games.com/igowin.exe

I think that good AI on Go is an unsolved problem still.

Ladislav: Yes I thought that it is not dan level. I'm not good on 
Go but I mostly win until 2-4 kyu on IGoWin.

Gabriele: Many Go player says that you should not play with a computer, 
instead, play a human. Or start with a higher handicap.
Its AI is much more difficult than Chess.

Kaj, .... Gab pretty much nailed it.


Endo, .... Indeed, so are you saying you can't beat this go program 
every single time in just a few moves?  I seem to be able to beat 
it every single time almost instantly, which I think was Ladislav's 
point.


I'm just confirming I did not simply find a way to beat it as a sort 
of trick.  I used to design AI for games, so I tend to get around 
it pretty quickly.


If you would like I will send you a video of me plaything this game 
several times.

Reichart: I really want to see to trick :) You can find my email 
address on Altme.

I mostly can guess next moves of the computer, but couldn't find 
a trick to win every game (Well actually I know one, after a game 
finished you can still continue to play, like 2 two players game. 
By that way you can increase your rank.. But this is nothing about 
AI ofcourse.

At the first a few games I can win immediately, but after several 
games (say 10-15 games) then I cannot win easily. After computer 
rank is 2-3 kyu I cannot win at all (as I'm a beginner Go player.)
By the way its help files are also very well to teach the rules.

offered by:
	TomBon
Task:

 R3 - Bindings for a KNNL - SOM (Self-organizing map) /Kohonen Network
	http://knnl.sourceforge.net/

	API - http://knnl.sourceforge.net/html/index.html

	Further Readings:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing_map
	http://www.ifs.tuwien.ac.at/dm/somtoolbox/
	http://accu.org/index.php/journals/1378
	http://www.codeproject.com/KB/graphics/som.aspx

	Alternativ:
	Quick Tutorial on how to construct a SOM.
	Perhaps to create a modul directly in R3?
	http://www.ai-junkie.com/ann/som/som1.html


Amount:
	$350
Valid until:
	01.04.2011
Terms:
	PayPal

offered by:
	TomBon
Task:

 converting code to native R2/R3  code for three basic AI components.
	
	Genetic Algorithms in Plain English
	http://www.ai-junkie.com/ga/intro/gat1.html
 
	Kohonen's Self Organizing Feature Maps
	http://www.ai-junkie.com/ann/som/som1.html

	Neural Networks
	http://www.ai-junkie.com/ann/evolved/nnt1.html

Amount:
	$500
Valid until:
	01.04.2011
Terms:
	PayPal

again, there are tons of very usefull libs out there
for so many cool things like mpi, concurrent programming,
ai, ea and so on but we can't use them. what kind of professional
or even commercial software is creatable with rebol without 
having access to resources like that?

I can tell you:   the micro/tiny/fabulous/boring/oneliner bulletin 
board version 5243?
(sorry but I couldn't resist :-))

On the word KWATZ!, someone found a couple of good links:

http://seedsforsanctuary.blogspot.com/2008/06/kwatz.html
http://www.livingworkshop.net/kwatz.html


I first heard the word in a dialogue between an AI and a poet in 
a very good book by Dan Simmons.
[KWATZ!]