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with liquid being lazy, its processing the least so all it neads 
to refresh on any element change is that AGG line block and then 
it just reassembles the draw list.  updating both lists when it needs 
to (not all changes will actually rebuild the 2nd draw block look, 
since it does not share all properties )

ok, i ve followed some discussions about agg and i can only dream 
about what can be done with it.  I know that R3 is a major re creation 
of the virtual machine, but as a programmer i cant wait to see a 
version of rebol that interest the corporate world....  I	ll try 
to help as far as i can

grr.. maybe its agg.. its getting invalid memory reads

bug is in the Shape dialect of AGG

bah - i needed that agg code for my wheels.. it works fine with the 
shape commented out :(

I have grown elixir to 6000 nodes.  and it was still reacting in 
real time with less than 100 of ram useage... most of which is gfx 
data from the AGG gui.

Do recent /Commands include AGG already?

hmm, but how you want to achieve that? You would have to have complete 
PDF specification parser and convert to AGG to display ...

I was cleaning my FTP accound and I found AGG Animation engine I 
wrote year ago. It's probably not finished, but there's a small working 
demo. >> do http://krutek.info/rebol/aggregator-cleaned.r

Geomol, please be patient, lot of cool things is happening right 
now ;) I think Carl is planning to build a new View with updated 
AGG very soon.

it's probably depending on the graphics driver, but it doesn't really 
matter what I do, whether its rebcode, AGG or VID, things slow down 
to a crawl when going full screen. I did some time profiling which 
showed that SHOW takes up probably more than 75-90% of a drawing 
cycle, much depending on resolution. removing that obstacle or making 
SHOW more intelligent will speed animation up a lot.

I'm trying to do thumbnails with AGG. doesn't it do subsampling when 
scaling down an image? It looks just as choppy as with the old DRAW.

shadolf i dead waiting lol  ... Well SVG renderer widget  for RebGUI 
is not a urgent stuff at all ... Well yes if the 2 needs i have are 
integred to next rebol/view AGG  release it would be really nice 
this will allow us to enlight  rebGUI look with scalable graphics 
^^. next thing once the 2 needs i have are available will be to work 
on the renderer engine widget to make it as fast as possible to allow 
a lot of  SVG content to be rendered without impacting rebgui performencies.

Cyphre, when you say "Rebol with Rebcode is faster", do you mean 
the AGG library?

No, he means using Rebcode with AGG.

I'm guessing AGG to do the rendering, rebcode to do the computation 
to generate the data for AGG to render.

If AGG is incorporated into Rebol, isn't there a need to mention 
that in the license?

And when will be able to use AGG with async?

Is AGG licensed as BSD with the advertising clause or without?

If without then RT doesn't have to mention anything. As it is, REBOL 
is mentioned on AGG's website as a user.

No. The advertising clause would say that they should publically 
say in all advertising of REBOL that it uses AGG. This clause just 
says that they need to include the copyright notice of AGG somewhere, 
not that the notice has to be really visible.

Most of the time that info is put in a ReadMe file or an About dialog, 
but since View has that info online, online docs are where it needs 
to be. And the online docs related to Draw do mention AGG (I think). 
That clause is less restrictive than you think.

AGG is mentioned in the View release notes, including links to the 
AGG web site.

Yeah, AGG may be good, but I bet it can't do this  http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

Terry, what you should probably realise is, that that are only probably 
TWO libraries for vector graphics in the open-source world - one 
being AGG, second one being Cairo, library which was selected by 
Mozilla foundation, Apple etc. to do SVG. Both are very good work 
imo ...

And looking at Laszlo - it is nice but definitely slower than VID. 
I think that AGG, performance wise, is even better than Flash ...

http://www.epsitec.ch/cresus/documents/base-f.php- All in AGG! Other 
companies using AGG here - http://www.antigrain.com/customers/index.html

AGG is definitely a win for Rebol (compare it to old draw, right?) 
and it provides us with professional grade vector graphics .... Look 
at Canvas RPaint - very good example of what is it capable of ...

DIDEC you get the point ...  the ask is un precise. My case is particular 
a gradient iss that take in charge percent and vertorial orientation 
to feet SVG datas would be a plus. I think gradient the way they 
are yet implement in Draw/AGG are better than the SVG way. SVG is 
huum less natural less close to human way of thinking and in that 
philosophy it feets perfectly with the REBOL .

It'd be nice to have  VIEWPORT command for creating virtual surfaces 
inside AGG/Draw - especially to use it to constrain text for applications 
such as scrolling and spreadsheets..

SVG support the element  in a stackable way so it's good to be able 
to reproduce that feature with draw/AGG push

for example  you draw a black cirle and on top of it you put 2 spots 
yellow and a yellow line  SVG keep the track of that and rebol drew/AGG 
is abe re produce it perfectly...

IS ther a good description of AGG somewhere?

would it be possible to use agg to create kind of Corel Draw? Simply 
to detect objects you draw? If I understand it correctly, currently 
when once you draw, it is laid down to face bitmap ...

That's related to Rebol itself, not just AGG. And it's very bad that 
it's not possible.

Rebolek's AGG demo called "Cyphre" reminds me a bit of Tempest 2000 
- anyone planning on a Tempest 2000 clone ?? :)

i will be really glad if  some AGG guru could have a look on this 
script and modify enhace it and maybe make a tiny lib  ^^

I'm intending to move flounder to AGG when i get a spare moment

Are the AGG bugfixes part of View 1.3.2 ?

I'll post resume of AGG fixes/improvement very soon in this group 
so you are informed.

9-Dec 9:53 Cyphre "I'll post resume of AGG fixes/improvement very 
soon in this group so you are informed." Please, Cyphre, can you 
post it before competition's dead line so everyone can made use of 
it? :)

We can provide 'bilinear' transformer. But the bilinear algorithm 
in AGG is behave somehow strange. If anoyne know about correct one 
we might try to implement it or fix the current one in AGG.

Now, using AGG style, I don't see any difference using bilinear or 
nearest neighboor... maybe I'm wrong in my code...

ReViewver: the FIT and ASPECT effect block command are using the 
old(non Agg based) scaling algorithm. You can use the bilinear filter 
mode only in the DRAW block.

AGG and flash rendering... Cyphre, what's your view on this news?

I'll be reviewing the new official version of AGG (2.4) very soon. 
Maybe we could put the Flash rasterizer into DRAW dialect (it depends 
how much usable it is in real world, also how much code increase 
ould cost etc.

hmm, I thought we could use Flash IDE tools, "export" curves and 
let it be "played" by rebol/agg :-)

Which means you need either a clever parser, or a call to new AGG.

changed in AGG or in the code?

in AGG.

just labelling the y-axis is a problem because of the way AGG does 
the rotate vs PostScript rotate command

and there's no way to save a graphic state in AGG.

Graham, AGG rotation: that's just an effect of the way AGG does its 
transformations which apply to the whole image. The rotate command 
is just a shortcut method of specifying just the rotation angle of 
a transformation.

One developer was tryting to prepare AGG as an replacement to Mozilla 
Cairo vector engine. So we would get AGG in browsers too :-) ... 
unfortunatelly, licence change ruins the effort

We can assume, Cairo is distributed under LGPL, right? If so, it 
becomes 
really incompatible with the GPL. For now I'd suggest you 
to keep using AGG 
2.4, at least until we can come up with a better 
legal solution. Basically, 
I want to prevent some 
commercial monster corporations" from free use of 

AGG. But I do want the Linux world to keep using it for free. I'm 
not quite 

sure how well LGPL protects from uncontrolled free commercial use; 
if it 

does, I may re-think and switch to the LGPL. But I'm not willing 
to keep 

using totally free, BSD-like licences in future versions. Ideally, 
I'd like 
to come up with some kind of a QT-like licensing scheme."

but he also adds:


We are working on a legal solution that allows us to prepare special
releases 
of AGG under a commercial license along with GPL. Currently you can
keep 
using AGG 2.4 for free, but I'll stop supporting it soon.
We are 
also working on different fee plans, to make it as flexible as
possible. 
It's hard to tell you concrete values right now, but there won't
be 
anything extraordinary. Depending on the projects and your revenue
we 
can even provide you a 
free commercial license".
We will inform you soon about possible options.

McSeem"

Does someone have a demo-script with agg-fonts on debian? I have 
no deep clue how to use 'draws deper features and dont want to spend 
some hours figuring that out^^

there is the AGG Draw test in the viewtop. it uses both VID and AGG 
fonts

http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla/display/AGG

Is there a way in Draw/AGG to globally set TEXT rendering mode (aliased, 
antialiased, vectorial) instead of setting it each time you  call 
TEXT ?

Cyphre, can you tell us what changes will bring the next Draw/AGG 
releases ? Wider font support ? Dialect improvements ?

I'd like to have better font support (most of Windows TT fonts seems 
to not work), better font objet support (things like 'offset and 
'valign doesn't seem to work), persistent Draw settings (like Text 
rendering mode). These font issues may be due to my lack of experience 
with the new Draw/AGG, did other ppl had the same issues on windows 
?

AGG based DRAW is platform independent so it doesn't need X-Win or 
any other API framework. The only dependent part is TEXT rendering(which 
is not included in the AGG). Currently it supports Win32API and FreeType2 
library to be able render text. So even if you have rebol on Linux 
you only need freetype2 lib, not Xserver in your setup. (the X-win 
dependecies are in the older Text rendering engine of R2 used for 
text in faces which will be eliminated in R3).

AGG wouldn't have this effect since it does not seem to use clear 
text.  in fact, in general I find AGG font AA pretty ugly... is there 
a way to improve this?  even if its slow?  there are some situations 
which do not mind speed (generating HQ output graphics, for example) 
 or small GUIs or when converting face looks to bitmaps before display.. 
(trades speed for ram)

Is carl going to release a linux sdk with agg enabled?

agg font support ie.

Graham: I think the linux SDK will have agg enabled once we solve 
the font path identification thing.

I was just looking for some Rebol/draw (agg) manual and found this 
interesting project made using AGG (not Rebol related) http://www.contextfreeart.org/gallery/

Contextfreeart. I always thought it wouldn't be that hard for one 
of you guys to implement it in Rebol/AGG.

In the new DRAW/AGG dialect, it seems that the 'reset-matrix command 
just don't work with 'matrix or 'translate. I've tried the examples 
from TRANSLATE command found in the online DRAW documentation, the 
2nd and 3rd examples are supposed to reset the translation, it just 
don't work (unless I've missed something obvious). Tested with View 
1.3.2.3.1 and View 2.7.5.3.1. Examples URL: http://www.rebol.com/docs/draw-ref.html#section-3.33

Is the AGG implementation capable of drawing filled donuts such as 
the third example in - http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/painting.html#FillProperties

I would like our agg command structure to concentrate upon compatibility 
with SVG, if possible and if it would be benefical to us. E.g. I 
remember we could not produce compatible gradients ...

eg: i might have an effect: [draw [viewport [any agg commands.. text 
etc....] .. viewport [...] viewport [ .. viewport []]]]

if viewport was to be done like shape - but contain the full AGG 
dialect we could do nesting.

i think AGG can probably handle non-rect clipping too.

A menu generator for AGG - work in progress ;-)   http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/menu-wip.png

the coolness that is AGG/Draw realtime terrain rendering :)   http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/terrain.jpg

more playing with AGG/Draw - Comic Terrain - http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/comic-terrain.png
 or for the script - http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/comic-terrain.r
  Admittedly I am not an artist ;-)

all of which you can change to expected agg fonts etc before calling 
size-text

s: size-text make face compose [text: (t) font/name: "arial" para/wrap?: 
off]  ;etc..

In most graphics programs there is something called the z-index or 
something to that effect, that controls the depth of the objects 
in a view.  Usually range in value from 256 (top) to -256 (furthest 
away).  I can't speak for AGG though as I have not played with it 
yet.

The AGG/Draw dialect will process and render things in the order 
they are specified inside the draw block for the face.  There is 
no z-index for AGG.

Are there any demo's that show the manipulation of AGG graphics within 
a GUI?  For example, dragging points of a bezier curve to reshape 
the line etc?  I thought I saw some from either Cypher or the AGG 
demos done by others.  Can anyone point me to them?

well My svg engine is working and got trouble only with matrix calulations 
due to an odd bug in the adapted version. Next i don't like the way 
my SVG works  I wish to be able to do it  in plain parse way (My 
method in not really elegant but it works fine  in most cases SVG 
is an XML file so the XML data is converted to REBOL  objects using 
parse and then i process those objects to convert into draw/Agg instructions). 
That was the fastest way i found at that time since what was important 
to me was the result not the beauty of the processing way.

that show how you can input an svg image and use it to draw on top 
of it  using AGG (we can imagine too animation displaying too etc...)

Agg spawns some interesting projects:


Cross GL - slovak library allowing some interesting things - http://www.crossgl.com/index.html


Fog GFX library - CPU instruction optimised AGG "add-on"? library 
from Czech author (author of AsmBlit and BlitJIT)
http://twopixels.blogspot.com/search/label/fog-graphics

From the CrossGL perspective, application demonstrates:

•	 	 Interactions with Hit Testing (buttons) at any angle and scale


What is missing in our AGG implementation, capturing events from 
gobs (?)  embedded in a draw design.

and we could extract data FROM the AGG image, like vertice points 
and stuff like that.

(could be video, or 3D animation etc...) AGG will be just the entring 
gate and link for those contents

yeah or drawing non image based texts ... most of the time in game 
text are all fuzzy small et because of the distance with using AGG 
to draw the text on top of your opengl embeded to VID layer you could 
at no cost  get a stable way to display them

don't know really.  but in any case, you don't have to use the library 
to do the rendering...  We can always render them using AGG or OpenGL. 
 as long as we have the coordinates.

Btw. I don't think, this belongs in this group, as it isn't directly 
related to AGG. Or did I misunderstood you?

Well, AGG and DRAW isn't used in my test. It's plain REBOL. It would 
even work with REBOL/Core, I guess. (I know, graphics in REBOL can 
be confusing.)

How it's with AGG and R3? Current REBOL version is using AGG version 
2.3, which has copyright message:

Anti-Grain Geometry - Version 2.3 
Copyright (C) 2002-2005 Maxim Shemanarev (McSeem) 


Permission to copy, use, modify, sell and distribute this software 
is granted provided this copyright notice appears in all copies. 
This software is provided "as is" without express or implied

warranty, and with no claim as to its suitability for any purpose.


The AGG version 2.4, which is basicaly same as version 2.5 has copyright:
Anti-Grain Geometry has dual licensing model. The Modified BSD 
License was first added in version v2.4 just for convenience.
It is a simple, permissive non-copyleft free software license, 
compatible with the GNU GPL. It's well proven and recognizable.
See http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html#ModifiedBSD
for details.

Note that the Modified BSD license DOES NOT restrict your rights 
if you choose the Anti-Grain Geometry Public License.

Can we update the REBOL's Agg sources to the 2.4 version to be used 
with open sourced host-kit?

I got 'yes' from the AGG author to be able use v2.4 but there is 
not much significant changes in 2.3 vs 2.4 except internal code cleanup 
and few new custom rasterizers so the priority for going to 2.4 was 
never high enough to spend time on it.

The AGG in R3 uses some code from 2.4 as it was much easier to add 
it this way than merge all the custom changes to 2.4 and then do 
all the testing to see if something went wrong.


Ofcourse any effeort to make the proper transition from the current 
2.3 based code to v2.4 is welcome.

You can basically edit each AGG canvas graphic element directly from 
the canvas using the mouse, this includes dragging, reordering and 
a pop up menu which is stroke contextual  :-)  have fun

RebRings a new AGG/Draw based puzzle game can be downloaded here: 
http://rebol.mustard.co.nz/rebrings.r

I also use liquid to build vast networks of AGG graphics for real-time 
interface creation... we are talking several thousand lines of AGG 
commands.

we have tried to run liquid within R3 an it crashes rebol...  but 
I didn't have time to figure out why, its a pretty complex object. 
 but I will have to look at in sometime this summer... the simple 
10X speed gain of AGG is enough to make it worth, especially since 
gobs provide internally of what paint simulates in R2.

now if Carl is interested in working with me on making this a reality, 
I will definitely give some time to the effort.  even if we only 
use liquid for some part of VID it would make a lot of stufff SOOOO 
much simpler to write afterwards in application, and lazy programming 
really pays off in terms of economies of processing.  in my application, 
rendering 1 graphic or 100 cause no more processing in most circumstances! 
 only the AGG aspect of things slow down.