AltME groups: search

I by myself about 3 month later make a port of the cyphre menu for 
rebgui so we can now that AGG is officially involve Cyphre into an 
optimization process to achive in short code a as flexible and advanced 
menu in term of design ;)

Carl wrote:

Q: "So, what should be the rules? "

A: Let's lock these down as fast as possible.  It would be great 
to post this in 2005.

Q: "Perhaps a limit on the size of the script."


A: I would like to suggest it has to be a free standing script (not 
a script that grabs other scripts, or other media.  Given AGG, I 
would like to suggest 32K (32,768 bytes) total.  It can be in multiple 
files, but the combined total must not exceed this.  Compatible with 
Rebol View 1.3.


Q: "It needs to be fast to download. We can setup a demo upload/download 
area on the View desktop."


A: I suggest not doing this, but rather put this on a public website. 
 We are trying to invite new developers, the less steps the better. 
 A copy can be on the view Desktop though.


Q: "So, what deadline date? Early January? Before students return 
to school." 


A: I vote the contest ends Dec 31st 11:59.59 (this should be 11:59.60 
but Rebol has a bug representing leap seconds, which happens this 
year).


Q: Who should judge the winner? Vote of the REBOL community or RT 
worldwide staff?


A: I think the people giving the prizes should not do the voting. 
 I can suggest using someone more famous, I can get one of my friends 
like Charles Fleischer the comedian to vote, or better David Brin 
(author of Earth, the postman, Transparent Society), they would both 
enjoy doing the voting I suspect.  


Lastly, I would like to offer the following:  Prolific will put up 
a brand new Xbox 360 (when available).


Instead of having a first and second place, rather, both can pick 
which prize they want.  


So the award wording would be "Win your choice of an Apple iPod video, 
or a Microsoft Xbox 360.  Awarded to the first and second place winners."


Third place should be a choice between SDK license, or Command (and 
in fact, the first and second place winners could chose these as 
well).

What means os-specific? Only windows has agg-fonts, which is cool 
for demos. And mac-alpha lacks even timers.

When only windows version of 1.3.2 has font support in AGG, is it 
considered as an OS specific feature? I hope not.

I haven't had a chance to actually test it with the AGG betas though...

I know that fill is not working on AGG alpha version (problem due 
to antialias).
On what version did you found 'fill not working ?

I read something in Carls Blogging that from the AGG project there 
was a Vote over 4 tupple RGB colors... with the last tupple as alpha 
bending/ transparentcy option? Or did i not understand it quite well..

I think there is great potential to unifying all the tools that are 
forming now: pdf-maker, AGG, SVG input and makedoc2. Allow these 
things to talk to eachother! imagine making a drawing in AGG or import 
an SVG into a DRAW and then use the very same block with layout-pdf. 
Future versions of makedoc could print pdfs as well as HTML through 
pdf-maker. by letting these tools use eachother, the combination 
could be a very fast and powerful document creation system.

AGG to PDF Maker is rather trivial for most cases; no gradients in 
PDF Maker though. i also didn't expose access to the CTM, pdf maker 
only offers higher level operations like scaling, rotations and translations.

Created AGG group because some of you wanted links for some of the 
AGG demo scripts from Rebol2 world. Also feel free to discuss anything 
related to AGG, View, graphics etc.

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/agg-demo-01.r

I was looking for an AGG demo, thanks!

i was surprised nobody was shouting for Draw/AGG ! This clearly opens 
the door to many possibilities. Cyphre, could you pls give us a brief 
update of where the project is going and your opinions on the different 
possibilities ?

here you are few links I posted in the past:

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/rebol-agg-faces.jpg

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/agg-rebol.jpg

http://cyphre.mysteria.cz/agg-image-patterns.jpg

can you pls post again the code sample for the agg-image-patterns 
that you had posted on the original rebol world ? thxs

After succesfull implementation of native affine transformations 
we are solving the rest of items on our 'to-do beta' list. I cannot 
tell you more for now but stay tuned. I believe the beta release 
of View/AGG will be very soon.

(please note I'm working on agg project as a volunteer and I'm not 
RT member or speaker so I cannot tell you anything more..you have 
to ask Carl or anyone from RT)

all those issues I mentioned in the REBOL/Zine are solved (some of 
them even in non-agg alpha/beta versions)

thanks. I can't wait to use draw/AGG effects !

keying at level of DRAW is not supported in the latest alpha of Rebol 
with AGG. You can yse the KEY command in the EFFECT blocku though. 
I'm looking into this so this feature will be hopefully back in the 
betaversion of Rebol/AGG release.

yes,  AGG will support 2D affine transformation matrices. So you 
can apply translation, rotation, scaling and inversion on  the actual 
matrix.

general matrix operation? I am not sure it belongs to AGG, but we 
asked for it long time ago :-)

I want to thank Cyphre for all his test scripts in REBOL/View/tests/. 
Very a good good source of inspiration  and a perfect show room for 
the AGG capabilities ...

Agreed. Has anyone done (or is working on) an AGG based SVG renderer? 
Or an SVG2DRAW converter? If so, there's a wealth of SVG content 
out there that we could use ...

Cyphre, or others - I am curious. I just read latest blogs about 
Mozilla technology - they will switch rendering to Cairo open source 
library. It will handle svg as well as the rest of rendering too. 
IIRC Cairo was already mentioned here. I wonder how AGG compares?

DideC, those are great. Really easy to warm up to AGG with those 
:-)

PekR yes 5K  script for SVG parsing to Draw/AGG then rendering engine 
AShley have done thanks to REBOL/View 1.3 the smallest and fastest 
SVG renderer I saw until now ;)

Pekr: the SVG Demo is just a quick and dirty prototype. I'm just 
going to get it to the stage where it can display simple SVG icons 
(for RebGUI). If someone else wants to write an SVG viewer that is 
fully SVG 1.1 (with 1.2 around the corner) compatible then good luck 
... I'm *not* going to be doing that! ;)


yeksoon: see above comments. I'm tweaking the SVG Demo code on an 
SVG icon by icon basis. As long as it works for the icons I use (or 
intend to use) I'm happy - I don't guarantee the code will work with 
anything other than the specific SVG files I have tested it on.


Cyphre: SVG is such a "flexible" standard isn't it? :) One question; 
how did you map SVG "path d" commands (e.g. <path style=... d="M 
10 10 C 20 20 ... z") where there is no "z" command to close the 
"shape" (i.e. the AGG shape command closes by default).


shadwolf: Having our own SVG icons is a good idea as we don't have 
to worry about licence / distribution issues and we can tweak the 
generation to make it as AGG compatible as possible. To do that we 
need to settle on *one* tool so as we generate consistent SVG code, 
and we should generate SVG that uses a single unit of measure, preferably 
pixels, as it's a real pain trying to handle multiple units of measure 
within the same file. I'll continue this discussion in the RebGUI 
group.

Pekr no but draw//AGG  code for a sharpe and complicated rendering 
draw neither ? :)

take my file fraisier.jpg and draw it the same translating it to 
VID Draw AGG dialect you will see that it's  afull too (take left 
space i'm agree ...)

in all cases SVG in rEBOL/View is only a common base to allow lot 
of reuse of this format you have 20  draw/AGG guru around the world 
and 200 .000 SVG drawers that use WebBRowser Plugins and SVG EDITOR 
like photoshop, the gimp or InkScape ...

... Adding SVG support is a feature un plus you have to keep in mind 
that the rendering is done in Draw ... As we don't have the time, 
the volunty etc to make an Hight LEVEL graphic draw sofware that 
instead of outputing SVG output ready to show AGG code ...

but i'm agree betwin SVG and AGG I would prefer an AGG draw maker 
tool ... And the good thing would be that this king of editor outputs 
SVG, DRAW/AGG and bitmap format as well with out any change or loos

REBOL  in my opinion and Draw AGG are more a joint betwin all existing 
so this ensure that people will still be using it

what is more easier and productiv (sorry but if you spent 3 weeks 
to draw the logo of your website in DrawAGG commands you will be 
fired and that's all) Making a description of your image in pure 
draw dialect ? Making it in SVG using a SVG Drawer editor then integer 
it to a VID renderer to have the snapshot ?  And then if your boss 
or client found that the produced graphic doesn't complity to his 
thought how difficult would it be to modify it in AGG code (pure 
texte no graphical editor) in SVG (there you have an editor and you 
can retake the file and then modify it very easyly ) or in bitmap 
once produced it's very hard to modify (a part if you save it into 
an intermediate format ? )

SVG  is a step In my mind to exploite AGG ready code we have no tools 
and we have too less gurus to make a relevent tool to improve production 
...

Pekr sure I milite since 3 years to have a complete multimedia solution 
in rebol ... AGG for me is a good step forward in this way

oh, we ar in AGG group, sorry, off-topic ...

Pekr imagine you compose you graphics with inkscape (SVG editor very 
complete and free) then you set your animation process with AGG and 
then you put it online in your site. People come along in you web 
site make the click on the link to you new file then rebol/view plugin 
launch and run you SVG graphics with you AGG animation. In front 
of that you have flash sure but flash is made by a specialised in 
the grpahic industry company and not by a generic company ;)

Agreed, that agg does good things to refrsh-speed :)

CArl franckly I use all the day long Crimson Editor and it's suffisant 
... but sure an IDE that allow people to manage code / AGG graphics 
animation (a little bit like flash studio ) would be top ...

Oh no! What is this conversation doing in AGG group!?

the IDE will interger a AGG draw editor lol ;)

Back to AGG ... "add a move to the end to keep the shape open" ... 
thanks Gabriele, that solves the problem nicely.

so actually I'm working on <G></G> block  and I yet support in <g> 
block path definition but I need to be able to support the transform 
matrix how can i do this in DRAW AGG ?

shadwolf: there's the 'matrix command for 2x3 matrix in draw/AGG 
: the syntax is
  matrix [a b c d e f]
where the equivalent 3x3 matrix is:
  | a c e |
  | b d f |
  | 0 0 1 |

if I'm correct , "matrix(2.082761,0.529757,-0.491943,1.944909,4.543758,-12.39301)" 
translates to
matrix [2.082761 0.529757 -0.491943 1.944909 4.543758 -12.39301]

We gonna have some docs on agg useage or is it not included in view 
1.3?

AGG docs / infos :
http://www.rebol.net/notes/draw-commands.txt
http://www.rebol.net/draw/index.html

Also would be nice to input text like that into a field so that its 
already formatted and then when one types in the field its AGG style 
text

AGG rendered *editable* text, you mean? I guess that would require 
some reasonable work, and it would probably be very slow, since you'd 
have to write your own OFFSET-TO-CARET and CARET-TO-OFFSET.

Wow that looks good!  This AGG stuff dramatically improves the type 
of GUI's were capable of.  I really need to dive into this stuff 
more.  I do think they should look for ways to add that capability 
to fields and text-lists etc..

I don't really understand how to use matrix (global ones and local 
ones) I'm try to make a SVG renderer so matrix are some times declared 
first globally for all the content of a group <g></g> and into the 
primitives of those block so how to add the matrix in the AGG code

matrix in SVG are in this format matrix [a b c d e f ] (decimal!) 
and this represent a transform  matrix of this from 
[ a c e]
[ b d f ] 

[ 0 0 1] so I really don't know if this is the same for a matrix 
in draw AGG.  As the gap is not very  hudge this means for me that 
the AGG matrix i close to be handled the same as the SVG ones ...

according to the SVG documentation a = scale X b =  skew X c = skew 
Y d = scale Y e = translate X f =  translate Y. For example in blender.svg 
file the group global matrix is  matrix [1.462522 0.0 0.0 1.462522 
-11.43136 -22.46338] (this is made with raw datas from the file no 
more compute than retrieving and converting the datas from dtring! 
to decimal!) So according to the informations I read in the SVG doc 
this matrix represent a scale X/Y of 1.46  and a translation X/Y 
of -11.43 and -22.46.  I'm working with a premaid scaling environnement 
applyed to the coord of the shapes maybe I need to apply this scale 
to the a b and e f value of the SVG matrix when I build the matrix 
 in AGG.

personally I would prefer the AGG doc to be release in the mean time 
of the VM.

Here's my thanks for the AGG support in Rebol.  Just make sure you 
have plenty of memory before you run it.  It runs very smoothly on 
my AMD XP 2500+ w/512MB.

fovsz: 450x450

layout compose [starfield: image (fovsz) black]

starfield: to-image starfield

loop 1000 [
	col: random 255
	starcol: to-tuple reduce [col col col]
	poke starfield random fovsz/x * fovsz/y starcol
]

view/new layout compose [
	b: image starfield
]

hvector: func [x y v][

 (fovsz/x / fov) * (fov / 2 + either zero? pos/2 - y [90][arctangent 
 (pos/1 - x) / (pos/2 - y)])
]

vvector: func [y z v][

 (fovsz/y / fov) * (fov / 4 + either zero? pos/2 - y [90][arctangent 
 (pos/3 - z) / (pos/2 - y)])
]

map: [
	"A New Beginning"
	""
	"Rebol HQ, led by their jedi leader,"
	"Carl Sassenrath, has begun"
	"preparations to strike back against"
	"Darth Gates at the Redmond system"
	"during a time of growing unrest"
	"among the netizens of the Empire."
	""
	"As the Empire works to complete"
	"construction of their hailed"
	"planetary domination device, code"
	{named "Longhorn Death Star", small}
	"centers of resistance continue to"
	"gain support among the"
	"oppressed masses."
	""
	"Even with mounting support, only"
	"One is powerful enough to overcome"
	"the dark side of the Force --"
	""
	"Rebol/View 1.3"
]

mapimg: copy []

foreach line map [

 b1: layout/origin compose/deep [text (line) 840 center font-size 
 48 sky black (either any [line = map/1 line = last map]['bold][])] 
 0x0
	append mapimg to-image b1
]

pos: [0 30 20]
dir: [0 0]

fov: 45

for l pos/2 200 .1 [
	agg: copy []
	x: 0 y: 0
	foreach item mapimg [
		y: y + 5
		if y < pos/2 [
			append agg compose [
				image (item)
				(to-pair reduce [hvector x + 15 y dir/1 vvector y 0 dir/2])
				(to-pair reduce [hvector x - 15 y dir/1 vvector y 0 dir/2])

    (to-pair reduce [hvector x - 15 y + 5 dir/1 vvector y + 5 0 dir/2])

    (to-pair reduce [hvector x + 15 y + 5 dir/1 vvector y + 5 0 dir/2])
				black
			]
		]
	]
	b/effect: compose/deep [draw [(agg)]]

	show b

	pos/2: l
]

The crash should be submitted to RAMBO as a bug. But would be nice 
if we could try to target the specific cause a little more as a group. 
I mean is it the integration of AGG and REBOL, or is it the interpreter 
or is it provoking an XP or intel or Graphics card instability?

since version 03 I have changed the way to handle svg content but 
I don't inserted the transformation support in those lastest version 
(04 and 05) My other problem is how to suppoer localtransformation 
information and global one. So transformation informations are attached 
to a group and some other are attached to a draw primitive so How 
to represent it to AGG code

how to convert SVG gradient information to AGG one to make it simplier 
SVG use vector information x1  X2 y1 y2  they use a list of color 
with there position along the  vector ( from 0 to 1)  and they encap 
transformation information too So how to translate this to the fil-pen 
gradient linear exploitable issues

You can see some light green pixels at top left of the outside of 
the circle, and at the bottom left, on the inside of the circle.

I wonder if this is a rebol agg implementation issue or an agg issue.

Cyphre Great !!!! I'm happy to have found a difficult bug regarding 
MATRIX in AGG/DRAW :) I hope this will be solved as soon as possible. 
I all cases tahnk you to have take the time to scout my problems 
:)

SVG matrix (a b c d e f) -> AGG scale [a d] rotate [b c] translate 
[e f] can I do this ???

Don't know if transform REBOL/AGG command can do this 

I not enoght skilled in AGG to answer ... I will try to use transform 
instead of matrix

it's yet a kind of miracle for me totally noob in AGG and in SVG 
to have arrived to the actual point of the svg renderer. Lot of code 
and ideas have helped me a lot Ashley is trully a idea fountain. 
Those idea only claim to be worked again and again to arrive to a 
very very good and usefull tool

I have a feeling that draw TEXT is still using old draw code, and 
not merged so well with AGG yet.
I noticed that draw text offset doesn't scale:

rebol [
	date: 24-Jul-2005 
	author: "Anton Rolls"
	comment: {

  Investigating why adding/removing 'merge from effect block seems 
  to change line-width on
		arc, circle etc.:

		ToDo:
		  - try to 

  - It looks like the AGG anti-aliasing is with the default window 
  background color ?

    When MERGE is added, then it's with the actual color that is merged 
    (seems ok and good to me).

    - so try to set b1/color so it's the same as the color anti-aliased 
    against in the merged version

    Perhaps default window background color (200.200.200) is close to 
    the default agg anti-aliasing color ?
		  (do not use custom window color)
		- try a simple LINE
		- report to RAMBO or AGG group
		- submit to RAMBO


  This shows that the addition of 'merge seems to add 0.5... (?) or 
  some scaled factor to the line-width:
	}
]

effect-blk: [
	draw [
		pen black
		line-width 0
		translate 25x25
		scale 1 1 
		circle 0x0 24 ;arc 0x0 24x24 0 270
	]
]
make-2nd-effect: func [/local result][
	result: copy/deep effect-blk
	insert result 'merge

 ;result/draw/line-width: result/draw/line-width - 0.5 ; <- even with 
 this they don't look quite the same

 result/draw/line-width: result/draw/line-width - any [attempt [correction-scr/data 
 * 0.1 + 0.5] 0]
	result
]
refresh: does [
	b2/effect: make-2nd-effect
	show [b1 b2]
	big1/image: to-image b1
	big2/image: to-image b2
	diff/image: xor big1/image big2/image
	same-txt/text: join "same? " big1/image = big2/image
	show [big1 big2 diff same-txt]
]
view/new window: center-face layout compose/only [
	across
	label 80 "scale"
	scroller 200x20 with [data: 1][
		change/dup next find b1/effect/draw 'scale face/data 2
		refresh
	]
	return
	label 80 "line-width"
	scroller 200x20 [
		b1/effect/draw/line-width: face/data * 4
		refresh
	]
	return
	label "line-width correction"
	correction-scr: scroller 200x20 [
		refresh
	]
	return
	b1: box 50x50 [refresh] effect (effect-blk)
	b2: box 50x50 [refresh] effect (make-2nd-effect)
	same-txt: text 200
	return
	big1: image 200x200
	big2: image 200x200
	return
	diff: image 200x200
]
refresh
do-events

I just took a look at Zeta (the BeOS clone) and saw that they use 
AGG for the rendering system. Nice.

What's the likelyhood, or possibility of a PDF renderer now for View/Agg 
?

By the way, our video expert evaluated several drawing libraries, 
among which AGG and Cairo, and deemed them unsuitable for the Syllable 
graphics system

AGG could still be ported to Syllable, but I guess, being a crossplatform 
library, it would have lower performance

I would like to know when the problem with Agg Matrix will be solved 
and when Carl plans to integrate in REBOL/AGG a radiant function 
that can better feet with SVG datas  ? I started 3 month ago an SVG 
engine and since then I'm stuck because of those 2 problems... SVG 
without transformation matrix and without gradients it's like nothing 
.... ( see greoup SVG renderer for more informations and test code)

also, i don't know if AGG is able to scale a line width if the scale 
is not the same for x and y.

Cyphre there is no missing thing in AGG  gradient the coordinate 
datas given by SVG gradient data block is different. To make it short 
and simple SVG work with area pourcentage of filling (what ever the 
 size of the area to colorize is you will allways have red 20% blue 
40% black  40% if red blue black are your 3 colors that are used 
to make the gradient effect) Then we have a vectorial information 
that  give the orrientation of the gradient effect. SVG gradeint 
are linear, circular or parterned (in most case linear is applyed 
...). REbol AGG gradient use area offset you have a start offset 
a end offset and the  colors are degraded along this vector  nothing 
more nothing less you have no area coloring infos. This is if  my 
recalls are good the differencies betwin AGG gradient and SVG gradient.

and the proposed solution is? Can we have some helper parameters 
in rebol AGG to allow SVG kind of parameters? Are AGG gradients subset 
of SVG? Is there 1:1 equation, so that we can transform between the 
two? Maybe the problem is a bit more complex?

Pekr and the solution proposed by Cyphre  was to insert to agg in 
built fonction complying with SVG datas ...

yes, that should be enoug, no? If Cyphre can use AGG internals to 
simply make it working, so he will, no?

I am not talking about adaptation in rebol level code, but directly 
in rebol AGG layer = C code - that should not be slow, no? Cyphre 
would then expose it via e.g. gradient-svg new command ...

yes the actual svg render have been made in one week it's pretty 
fast and the code is very tiny ( 400 lines for a svg to AGG/Vid rendering 
engine that not so mutch  ^^)

There is some 1.3.1d or so called 1.3.2 beta VIEW version. Are the 
AGG fixes going to be part of it?

I also read someone reporting problems with different characters 
rendered using AGG. This should be also fixed in the next release.

I hope you get all the informations now to make gradient function 
in AGG/Draw complying with SVG informations

Draw SVG/AGG have progress so far that I cannot catch up with what 
it supports currently.


Does anyone have a quick feature overview of this? either a link 
or point form will do.

I already thought about some small app in View, encapped. But it 
would have to have auto-updating framework, which I don't have yet. 
It seems to me, that if I will have to manage our router traffic 
log, then doing things in View is MUCH easier (with AGG for e.g.) 
then to think of portal based solution, logging of users etc ....

I will have to find a way of how to study it - it is very late here 
and I just looked into archive size - 1.6 MB  archive - oh my ... 
so - if there is no simple way of how to wrap it, I will go my own 
way, as usual, even with limited featureset - I don't need fancy 
javascript/java/whatever graphing - if I go View way, I will have 
to develop AGG based graphing anyway ...

yes, with Cairo crap instead of AGG, right? :-)

so test it send bugs report to rambo and we will get a pretty good 
version

It's yet very good to have a working alpha version for MacOSX after 
only 1 month of the Win32 1.3  stable release. Even in the 1.3 stable 
version for win 32  we have remaining bugs like agg matrix key word 
or gradient effect converion from SVG

1.3 Linux BETA was released. I imagine the release will take a while 
b/c AGG fonts under Linux

After more hair pulling, I find that Debian will display truetype 
fonts in AGG draw, but when encapped it does not!

Latest build available at: http://www.dobeash.com/files/RebGUI-033.zip


*** Unzip this file into your existing RebGUI 0.3.0 distribution. 
Requires View 1.3.1 ***


Minor synchronization release to align with latest REBOL/View 1.3.1 
builds and documentation. I've also removed all SVG related code 
until such time as AGG fixes allow SVG Renderer project to complete.

Pekr, yes. The code for svg-toolbar, icon, etc widgets is all there 
... just waiting on SVG renderer project (which in turn is waiting 
on some REBOL/AGG fixes).

I remember some talk between Cyphre and Carl about "subpixel accuracy" 
in regards to AGG, but dunno if related. Carl was thinking if he 
should allow decimals for pairs IIRC.

imagine being able to call rebcode directly within AGG draw loop 
 :-)

It seems that Maxim Shemanarev (Author of AGG) now works for ScaleForm 
- http://www.scaleform.com....

btw - openVG seems being HW accelerated, AGG is not (yet)

true but minus a lot of the newer stuff ie. agg/etc

Is it so small as AGG? Does it have good license for us? I thought 
that Amanith is indeed based upon AGG, but maybe I am wrong :-)

IIRC Cyphre had some old comparisons, and AGG was the fastest one. 
There is still some place to optimise stuff. E.g. bitmap/image node 
caching is not done in View yet ...

since pairs are only integers not decimals vector and matrix could 
be replacement for draw dialect coordinates, AGG has subpixel accuracy

And I think we have them already in Rebol ............ in AGG