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@Arnold: once you finish with the PRNG algorithms, you could have 
a look at Lz4, I would love to have it built in Red! ;-) 

https://code.google.com/p/lz4/

Doc also did some of that with Red where he developed a non-Microsoft 
method to interface with the Microsoft kernel.  Microsoft doesn't 
provide complete documentation for doing that sort of thing, but 
he did it anyway.

@Doc, I will take a look at that. It is another thing of magnitude. 
Downloaded the source for starters.

@Bo, you understand why Kaj need to drive the Windows Kernel. M$ 
is not able to do so anymore?

Yes, that's a bit unexpected

myresult was: 1
 myresult is : 0.5
 myresult is : 1
It did also on the first printed line. Could be a design choice.

int-to-float causes a error. Or does it? I added some prints and 
inbetween steps
	genrand-real2: func [
		return: [float!] 
		/local result [float!] between [float!] intermediate [integer!]
	][  
	    intermediate: genrand-int32
	    print ["intermediate: " intermediate lf]
		;result: int-to-float genrand-int32
		between: int-to-float intermediate
        print ["between: " between lf]
		result: ((1.0 / 4294967296.0) * between) ;; divided by 2^32 
		return result
	]

ON the second value the program errs:
intermediate: -1734706621
between: -1734706560
-0.40389284491539 intermediate: -1052231088

*** Runtime Error 9: float invalid operation
*** at: 00002033h
logout

When I make my testprogram for user.reds tell me why int-to-float 
behaves like this:
intval: -1052231088
floval: int-to-float intval
print ["intval: " intval " lets floval become: " floval lf]
The output is not a runtime error:
intval: -1052231088 lets floval become: -1052231040

But the print line was not executed in my real program? I only have 
one user.reds file in my directory. Suggestions?

I'm sure it will be fine. /ONLY has a different meaning everywhere 
else, and that meaning could be assumed here, so people just need 
to be aware.

@Kaj, that will be a test of rebolbot's error handling :)

AdrianS: Thank you for sharing RebolBot, it is a good example script 
of R3 as well.

Rebolbot: thank you for doing it Graham!


In the README, "About" section, is it normal that a Rebol link is 
pointing at Graham's SO profil while a Red link is pointing at Adrian's 
one?

Endo, just pasting in a func to test, but it always crashes.

Typed in a simple func and that also crashes. 

-= Red Compiler =- 
Compiling /C/Cheyenne/www/_ahb472d1f5g6c38e.red ...
*** Syntax Error: Invalid Red program
*** line: 1
*** at: "incr: func ['n] [set n add get n 1]"

Gregg, the error is what it says. It needs to start with a Red [] 
header, just like when you run the compiler locally

I know, and just when things like this happen there are a bunch of 
people who decide they want to use the site(s)..

I've postponed a Red article until this has blown over

Smart, intuitive, and powerful analysis tool for finding cost optimizations, 
calculate benchmarks and price forecasting.

Suggest:


A smart, intuitive, and powerful analysis tool that finds cost optimizations, 
calculates benchmarks, and forecasts prices.

Awesome news Robert.  Demo crashed after a bit of play:

** Script Error: event: needs a value
** Where: loop -apply- wait do-events
if view demo 
** near:  loop 8

Nick, thanks for the report. As said it's a very early release but 
we wanted to let you play with it.

Nick, yup, this is know problem. The event handling is a bit unstable 
as I had not enough time for additional debugging before making the 
release (It's a "tax" to have the release now rather than wait one 
more week or so :-)). Will be sorted out in the next release.

Thanks Bo for giving it a try. Yup, the tile game is a bit "buggy" 
even at the rebol script level as I wrote it around 3 or 4 AM on 
Friday night(or should I say Saturday morning? ;-)) I tried to quickly 
mimick the 'swipe' gesture but it is not perfect at all. Let's see 
if I can improve it in the new release...or maybe anyone here could 
write simple game in R3 even on Windows that will use the DOWN, UP 
and MOVE mouse events the way so it is fun on touch screen? We can 
embedd it in the new release as a bonus or if there are more demos 
we can create simple menu where you can download it and have fun...anyone? 
;-)

www.rebol.net is not a wiki

In any case, you might find my attempts at a CMake-based build useful, 
as I explicitly list the `make prep` scripts and their dependencies 
there:

https://github.com/earl/r3/blob/wip-cmake/CMakeLists.txt#L109

I don't consider rebol.informe.com my child, on the contrary it is 
totaly open to everybody.  I never used www.rebol.net/wiki becuase 
it is outdated, the last big additions are of 2010.  I tried to use 
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/REBOL_Programming(more than 750 contributions)), 
then I switched to rebol.inform.com in order to maintain a unique 
place for the rebol community.  With a single account you have forum, 
wiki, images gallery and blog.

Let me know what's missing on rebol.informe.com, and I'll copy there 
in few days.

R3 droid is a nice work. Hope to see it with nice GUI elements.

MaxV: we apreciate your work but I personally prefer a MediaWiki 
page because upgrading the engine we will have true international 
language support.

its nice that Carl is willing to hand over control of various rebol 
main sites to the community... this is a big deal everyone.  :-)

Hello MaxV: Congrats to your first R3GUI app! ;-) I have some questions/notes 
though:

1. Why one needs to download the two DLL files to get R3B running?? 
(not much user friendly IMO)


2. On your Blog page you say: "First of all there are some bugs, 
most of them depends on R3GUI, for example this one: https://github.com/angerangel/r3bazaar/issues/8"

I bet this is not related to R3GUI at all but more to your R3B build. 
The REQUEST-FILE works without any problems in our Saphirion build 
(and I think also the "official" Carl's build works well but haven't 
tried it). I tried to download and run your R3B binary and I can 
confirm the bug is related only to this version so it would be fair 
enough if you remove your R3GUI blaming from the blog entry if possible. 
I know R3GUi is not perfect so maybe you can just change the blame 
for some other which is really related to the framework. Or better 
feel free to ask any questions in RgGUI group here!

3. I've looked into the EDITOR function code and comparing to the 
R3 editor code (which is still twice as big as the R3GUI version 
- but I don't know if they match the features though) the R3GUI code 
looks much cleaner and abstracted that the R2 style even if you are 
not expereienced writing R3GUI apps. Some notes:


3.1 I'm curious why are you accessing the internal AREA style value 
like face/names/tb or aa/names/tb/state/value? Is that for some reason? 
Why you don't use the AREA directly like:
do-actor/style face 'on-key arg 'area
instead of
do-actor/style face/names/tb 'on-key arg 'text-box

or

write (to-file AA-INFO/OPTIONS/text-edit) get-face aa


write (to-file AA-INFO/OPTIONS/text-edit) aa/names/tb/state/value 


3.2 There is "classic" but anoying bug. If you open file requester 
and close it without selecting a file the editor errors out. (but 
you probably already noticed)


3.3 Would be great if you add keyboard shortcuts. It's easy to add 
them. See the layouts-15.r3 file in R3GUI Saphirion package as an 
example.


3.4 Maybe you could try to write your first R3GUI style - MENU It 
would be handy in the editor(and also in other apps) instead of the 
buttons on top.


Anyway, thanks for promoting R3 and R3GUI. I appreciate all your 
efforts!

1. Saphirion public source works that way, I didn't change anything. 
So if you have some trick to make it better, your are welcome to 
contribute. I use MinGW to compile it.


2. "official" R3 has no graphic support, R3B is the public Saphirion, 
so some investigation is needed.


3.  Thak you, but I never found a R3 editor, I don't know of what 
are you writing. Where is R3 editor?


3.1 I'm a total beginner and too much documentation is missing. I 
just copied the "on-key" area action. I would strongly appreciate 
if you send me your version.

3.2 TO-DO list


3.3 I added F5 shortcut to execute code, but I have trouble to add 
keys combinations. How to control CTRL+S for example? There is anymore 
the old event/control and event/shift.

I'll never blame R3GUI anymore.

I started my binding first, to try to help Doc make progress towards 
supporting Android. He used some code from it, but he doesn't need 
a complete JNI binding in Red itself

My binding implements the complete JNI interface now, at the lowest 
Red/System level. Doc's bridge binds only a handful of JNI functions, 
but he is building higher levels on them now towards a bridge with 
Red

For the R3 bridge, there's a Red example and a Red/System example 
in source form. No binaries at the moment

Compilation depends on a Red development branch, so I can't integrate 
it with my build runs for binary downloads yet

The example for JNI is hello-JNI.*, but you have to compile two parts. 
The Red/System part needs to be compiled like the R3 bridge, as a 
library. The Java part needs to be compiled by Java, similar to Doc's 
instructions for his Java bridge

Kaj, great work on OpenGL!  Question: Am I understanding correctly 
that the OpenGL backends currently available don't use the hardware 
rendering in the GPU?  If this is a correct understanding, do you 
have a roadmap for including hardware rendering capability?  Just 
curious.

@Kaj, so you static binding could be wrttten as a r3 extension as 
well?

so, can you make a GUI out of all this?

I'm struggling with a fully built r3gui so I might just wait a bit!

well, there's a billion$ out there for medical apps

A horrible site that is completely broken without cookies

The problem with the USA is a western life style.  Take away the 
western life style ... and the western diseases go

Immigrants move to the USA looking for a better life than they had 
. yet typically immigrant children have shorter life spans then their 
migrant parents

Feed them a saturated fat diet ( from animal products such as milk, 
cheese, meat ) and they get the same illnesses

and is a grass

The only thing missing from a pure plant based diet for humans is 
B12

Kaj, I ran into Carl today in Home Depot and we talked about your 
SDL binding for Red.  Do you think it would be difficult to make 
a binding for R3?  Carl was saying that he thought it wouldn't be 
too hard to convert R3-GUI to run off of OpenGL instead of the current 
foundation (was it AGG?) so it could be hardware accelerated.

Just curious.

Cool. The host backends for R3 are quite firmly in its C source, 
though, so it wouldn't be much use to use my Red/System code: you'd 
need to write the port in C to integrate it in R3. Perhaps a part 
of it could be split off in the R3 devices architecture for hosts, 
but that's incomplete, and you would have to handle a host implementation 
in an extra Red/System shared library, because the Red/System compiler 
doesn't generate object files or static libraries yet to link into 
the R3 executable

Another thing is that the classic SDL that's available everywhere, 
currently the 1.2.x series, is single-window. To get a proper R3 
host with multiple windows you need SDL 1.3, which is usable but 
is in a very stretched out development process, like R3. 1.3 has 
Android and iOS support, so you'd usually want that, anyway, but 
it's harder to get ready to download binaries for it, and I haven't 
tested it with my binding yet

sizeof(fltk::Widget) == 60.

The "core" (the "hello" program compiled & linked with a static FLTK 
library using gcc on a 486 and then stripped) is 82K.
The FLUID program (which includes every widget) is 352k.

Still fits on a 720K disk

FLTK (pronounced "fulltick") is a LGPL'd C++ graphical user interface 
toolkit for X (UNIX®), OpenGL®, Microsoft® Windows®, OS/X, and several 
other platforms.

No, Apache only has a problem with GPL

In contrast to libraries like Qt and wxWidgets, FLTK uses a more 
lightweight design and restricts itself to GUI functionality. Because 
of this, the library is very small (the FLTK "Hello World" program 
is around 100 KiB), and is usually statically linked. It also avoids 
complicated macros and separate code preprocessors, and does not 
use the following advanced C++ features: templates, exceptions, RTTI 
or, for FLTK 1.x, namespaces. Combined with the modest size of the 
package, this leads to a relatively short learning curve for new 
users.[citation needed]


These advantages come with corresponding disadvantages. FLTK offers 
fewer widgets than most GUI toolkits and, because of its use of non-native 
widgets, does not have native look-and-feel on any platform.

I don't think you would gain anything by using SDL to get R3GUI faster. 
AFAIK SDL has no 2d graphics support...it's just low-level lib for 
handling the OpenGL or 2d framebuffer. There is no support for 2d 
vector graphics, font rendering etc. so you'll end with the same 
needs for the UI engine in the end.

As Pekr mentioned above, with the new R3 graphics code reorganization 
I'm working on it will be possible to even create a compositor based 
on SDL though if anyone is interested in doing that.

That's a pretty small fridge compared to what we are using.

It's a [Red]uced fridge

MDP style: Well, we need a pretty printer ;-)

Reactors: I just packed everything on the docs dir we have as a start. 
So, yes, we need to sort it out, get rid of the old stuff etc. So 
feel free to delete it and send a pull-request.

No, as said I just used the docs dir and didn't went through it. 
Well, seems next time we prepare it a bit better.

Ok, I'll figure out how to send a pull request on these

This coult be done with a commit hook on our side, but yes, HTML 
is not needed.

Looks like a number of other docs are not there.

I don't think it's contradictory. He focuses deeply on one thing 
at a time, and everything else is lucky to get any time at all. It's 
just that now, Roku is his focus.

OTOH, his work there may lead to new thoughts for REBOL and other 
languages targeted at small devices in a networked world.

It's a bit odd that his creation is so fantastic that he can't use 
it

I smell a troll

I think that reason for not using R3 is not technology related. Carl 
even talked about it in the past, that - maybe one day. Imo the reason 
is two-three-fold - 1) RT's failure, to set up R3 in the wild, business 
wise 2) at the time Carl joined Roku, R3 was not open-sourced. 3) 
I also remember, that on R3 Chat, he asked about Gstreamer. So imo 
even a toolset problem - R3 lacking extensions to popular subsystems, 
and also risky situation - what if Carl would decide to leave the 
company? Who would work with his R3 code?

He said he would only use r3chat before .. but he says that the SO 
chat is very nice and usable from a browser

How hard can it be to create a terminal version of AltME? Well...

But is that usable with e.g. this world? If yes, then he could just 
use that and join a chat here, couldn't he?

So
How hard can it be to create a terminal version of AltME? Well...

No, an interface to this world, but from a text terminal. Like R3 
chat, but which actually work with AltME worlds.

fine.. so after 45min of waiting, what he said instead of a note, 
that SO chat is nice?

Well, I have mixed feelings ... Carl simply gave up on Rebol and 
its message imo ... felt strange: " I'm no longer in the mode of 
convincing the world about Rebol. I've learned a lot over the last 
couple years in the trenches." ..... later .... "So, I know really 
well now that Rebol is not for every developer.... but it would get 
more interest if R3+GUI was easy to download an get running on a 
variety of those devices on your list."

I had the same argument as you with a boss of a company, I did free-lance 
work for. I was able to convince them to buy REBOL/Command though, 
because the develop time went down by a factor 10 or so.


A bit along the same type or argument, I convinced a business partner 
of that company to implement XML-RPC instead of using SOAP based 
calling method across the internet. It saved us months of development 
time, and the other company could implement XML-RPC feature within 
days.


Just keep on arguing, also from a cost viewpoint. Don't give in! 
:) It pays.

Geomol - my boss bought me an SDK, because he know, that I would 
not program in anything else. It was not so expensive after all, 
not for a company running systems like SAP :-) I personally bought 
SDKs, Several command versions (prior to SDK), Pro version, and one 
IOS for 2K USD .... but nowadays I can state, that sponsoring stuff 
on voluntary basis is even better. So I actually put more money in 
Red than into REBOL SDK for e.g. :-)

What is more interesting imo is Carl attending a devcon. I believe 
guys will discuss many ideas about further Rebol development ....

And then we build a spaceship and take a trip to the Moon. I always 
wanted that!

OK, I build a telescope for our observatory, to watch you walking 
on the moon :-)

I have Amiga running on my cell phone.  It doesn't have quite the 
luster it used to.  In the 90's, I owned a large Amiga store and 
I did all my work on Amiga computers.  It was so much nicer than 
PCs.  However, there are now hundreds of Linux and BSD distributions, 
not to mention Windows, Mac and Android (yes, also a Linux distribution). 
 What I really miss is simplicity and the ability to easily customize 
a system to do only what you want and no more in a lightweight and 
efficient manner.

I wonder, if it's worth getting a Raspberry Pi at this point and 
try compile World to it.

The main difference between the Beagle Bone Black and the Raspberry 
Pi is the manufacturer of the system on a chip (SoC).  RasPi is Broadcom 
and Beagle Bone is Texas Instruments (TI).  The Beagle Bone Black 
has a faster processor (1GHz vs. 700MHz), but the RasPi can usually 
be reliably overclocked to 1GHz.  They both have a lot of I/O pins. 
 The RasPi is also a little cheaper.

If you want real power for a little more ($89), get this:

http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php


Quad-core 1.7GHz Arm-A9 processor, 2GB on-board RAM, 10/100 Ethernet, 
2xUSB2.0 ports, Micro HDMI, Micro SD card slot, hardware audio codec, 
run Android 4.x or Ubuntu 12.10

Pretty hot specs for the price!

DC Input is statet as 5V / 2A. That's 10W. The Amiga1200 used 20W, 
if I remember correctly. Not bad for these new small computers. Ras 
Pi may use half of the ODROID, so about 5W.


A cluster of computers each running at a couple Watts, that would 
be something! :)

When you buy such a bare board, you have to build a computer around 
it, which makes it much more expensive and uses a lot more power

RPi runs at ~3.5W in my experience. But performance / watt efficiency 
of a RPi is rather low.

Agreed.  However, for some applications there has been more developed 
for the Raspberry Pi, which makes it easier to develop a finished 
product, especially if a lot of I/O is not needed.

Kaj: For embedded applications, all you need to add to the ODROID 
is a MicroSD card with the OS on it.  That doesn't add any higher 
power requirements.  If you want to add a hard drive, DVD-RW, monitor, 
etc. to it, of course it will take more power.  However, those aren't 
needed for most embedded applications.

Yes, but John compared it to an Amiga 1200, so you have to take into 
account the floppy drive it had and such. It was used as a personal 
computer, so you have to add a monitor, keyboard, mouse, perhaps 
a hard drive, etc.

We're picking up written off PCs that are hardly used for less than 
a Raspberry, so the price advantage is not that clear cut

My laptop takes 6-8W during normal desktop+internet usage on battery. 
But can take up to 80W when running at full CPU/GFX performance when 
running a 3d game :-)

RPI would be size and weight advantage. Hide it under a table. Hard 
to do with a 10 year old desktop for the same price.

The Pi can also be used as a cheap thin-client.  Just hook it up 
to the back of a monitor and have it run a remote desktop connection 
on boot. :-)

I actually wanted to use RPIs in that project I am still a part of, 
instead of those old desktops, but no REBOL or Red and won't be relevant 
when I'm leaving the project.

For such mobile systems, I think it would be better to use those 
new mini PCs inside a USB stick. They're very similar to a Raspberry, 
you get them in a case, and they can feed off a monitor

Is there a link for the mac saphir build?  Or was that just to say 
it builds?

Reagarding Saphirion's documentation - maybe it's silly question, 
but could you try to change extension from .mdp to .md and see what's 
the difference on GitHub? I'm sure that it would look a little bit 
better directly in the browser as at least syntex for headers is 
almost similar in MarkDown as in MakeDocPro.

Hmmm... the syntax is a little bit different, but it's not too hard 
to change it to md.
Compare:

https://github.com/Oldes/documentation/blob/master/argpass.mdwith 
https://github.com/saphirion/documentation/blob/master/argpass.mdp

Ladislav, is the method you outlined for defining variadic functions 
is there a way not to have the variadic function not change the arity 
of any functions following the variadic function?


i.e. with the definition of 'sumn, as you have it, if you have the 
following in a script:

print sumn 1 2
print "hello"


The "hello" doesn't print. I guess this is because when Rebol is 
'do-ing the script, the 'print is returned by the variadic function 
and the 'do dialect somehow doesn't re-interpret that word with its 
following argument, but sees it as a no-argument 'print. 

If, on the other hand, you have:

print sumn 1 2

do print "hello"	;or if you have something like "foo" instead of 
the 'do

hello
 will be printed out as intended


Could you describe what is happening here since I'm not exactly sure 
I understand how Rebol is handling things? Among other things, how 
is it OK to invoke arg-adder without providing the one arg it expects 
when you have "return/redo :arg-adder?

I don't know if I should spam the message into a third group, but 
it's fine with me to move discussion there.

Oldes, I have a dream about an MDP2 that will start with Markdown 
compatibility. Actually, no, I have a spec document, but am not sure 
I should publish it yet.