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in the code... 


rsize: 3   is the record size...  like the /skip value in most series 
handlers  

my two funcs will adapt, since you provide it the record size


but ... ehehe, I just realized that find HAS the /skip attribute... 
doh!!! the above can be made MUCH faster still, especially by removing 
the need for the keys (which take a bit of time to generate on large 
lists).

here's a better example  

dataset: [ "subject" "predicate" "value" "bob" "fname" "Bob" "bob" 
"age" "42" "Maxim" "age" "unknown" ... ]
so the triple is subject, predicate value  

with the ability to say quickly return   every triple  where "predicate" 
(the second part of the triple)  = "age"


i'm doing this now with MySQL as a triple store, but series should 
be much faster

>> dataset: [1 "a" "B" 4 "h" "V" 1 "z" "Z" 4 "p" "d" 4 "k" "i" 4 
"y" "o"]
== [1 "a" "B" 4 "h" "V" 1 "z" "Z" 4 "p" "d" 4 "k" "i" 4 "y" "o"]
>> ultimate-find dataset 4 1 3 1
ultimate find(): 1. -> 0:00   4 matches found
== [4 "h" "V" 4 "p" "d" 4 "k" "i" 4 "y" "o"]

ultimate find(): 1. -> 0:00   1 matches found
== [1 "a" "B"]

:-)

>> ultimate-find dataset "a" 2 3 1
ultimate find(): 1. -> 0:00   1 matches found
== [1 "a" "B"]

I'll say that's a respectable time... and the leading contestant 
:)

interesting... im not too worried as density isn't a big issue with 
triple stores

both dense tests perform pretty much the same, the moment I convert 
it to a hash, it gets reallllly slow.

the strange thing is i did tests using a record size of 2, which 
wouldn't trigger strange mis aligned key/value issues.  I even removed 
the copy to make sure that wasn't the issue and one test with only 
400000 records took more than 4 minutes to complete vs .297 for the 
feach test!

must be a loop error

Max - just a question - wouldn't using parse be faster than find/skip?

my advice would be:

1) to test Parse as Pekr noted (traversing only the respective field)
2) to use a hash to index the respective field

I didn't do any parse test tweaks... but find/skip is very fast so 
far, we can skip over 100 million records within a millisecond.  
not sure parse can beat that

Did you find a solution to the density issue Max?

nope... I'm working on urgent stuff won't have time for a few days 
to put more time on this.

didn't tested since a while in R2, but in R3, parse is faster in 
most of the cases (if you write correctly the rules)

I'm wondering if it has something to do with recreating the hash 
each time a value is found?

I think, that it is quite natural. You should probably generate some 
random data having (approximately) similar properties as what you 
intend to process and try some variant approaches to really find 
out, which one is best for the task. Do you know, that it is possible 
to index just a specific record field, i.e. you don't need to make 
a hash containing all the data from the database?

Yeah, i've tried some actual data finding 3270 matches out of a hash 
that is 732981 in length.. 

when it's block the search takes .033 s, and same run against has 
is 0.6

but if the matches are just a few, hash is 1000x faster

ladislav, there is a script earlier in this discussion which has 
a complete working example.

This is a list of open projects .. but note that there is no prioritization 
visible

It will be released. To really be convinient we need R3 callbacks. 
So, it's to much a prototype yet. My experience showed that things 
need to have a critical maturity level before others will pick it 
up and really use it.

So, did you do a R3 or R2 implementation?

Brian, you say "We have a task! type now, and have had it for a while. 
It doesn't work well but when last I checked it does work."


Could you elaborate on this? How does one actually use task!, with 
current R3?

In general, one doesn't. There is no infrastructure code around tasks, 
no way to stop or track them that I know of (they may stop on their 
own), and the only testing of them that I have done is to track down 
errors. But they seem to do something. The task-local user context 
is for the moment by definition rather than actual - it hasn't yet 
been implemented. But you can MAKE a task! and it will do something.

a: make task! [wait 5 print "Hello in a task"] do a print "Hello"

as you can see, it will print "Hello" first, and after 5 secs it 
will print "Hello in a task" .... the question is, if I got the usage 
right :-)

It's been like that for more than a year now. Oh, and if an error 
is triggered in a task and not handled, it will crash R3. I'm not 
sure it is stable to trigger an error and handle it either.

Yup, that works Pekr, and the task ends on its own.

>> a: make task! [wait 5 print "Hello in a task"] do a print "Hello"
Begin Task
Hello
>> Hello in a task
End Task

There's a lot of R3 that only works on Windows for now, if there.

Interesting .. so I can start my gui that way as a task

oh .. I think it's a Qt error message

Surely, a bug nevertheless.

Well, nevermind. Considering that it's mostly unsupported functionality 
at this point, probably not worth a bug report :)

still a bug if you can't use it for cgi ...

We're not disputing that it is a bug - actually, we think it is debug 
code that is only there temporarily. But reporting it is of no good 
for the moment, and it's not nearly as bad as its other bugs.

i implemented the thread management functions in the host lib. the 
create_thread hostlib function gets a function pointer as argument 
that is to be run in the new thread. and the error is occuring within 
this function, so it's a bit outside my reach

That's a good start. Keep that code for when we start working on 
this :)

ok another question i know i'm a bother ... but if  us tiny bunch 
of crazy fans we don't ask us silly asks we will never get steps 
further and get rebol writed in history. So the crazy is is why not 
doing rebol in java instead of C or C++ ?


I mean now in days having rebol based on java what are the possible 
gains ?

1) Easier way to handle multiplateform

2) Big big java comunity and so getting strong specialised people 
to enhance rebol VM will be easier.
3) no need to adapt algorithms across plateform.
4) all the curent technologies are adapted to java. 

the bad points are:


1) jre weights alot and rebol being based on it will not be stand 
alone so it will need the jre to be installed to run
2) goodbye AGG 
3) interfacing with java libraries can be problematic.

I think the good points overcome the bad points.

Add a few bad points:

4) We would have to throw all of the current code away and start 
over.

5) The semantics of REBOL have very little in common with Java, so 
we would be very limited in what Java libraries we could use.

6) The JVM is much worse at dynamic languages than its competitors, 
such as the CLR.
7) SLOW.
This might tip the tables in the other direction.

Brianh's bad point: 
 

4) hum yes but maybe you will attrack some more hella programers 
ultra specialised that will help us do the translation ...

5) the semantic and datatypes of rebol have few in comon with C/C++ 

6) yes but looking at the jobs offers now in day most of them aorund 
70% are based on java jdbc job offers ... 

7) slow but now we have 4 to 6 cores processors that was a good excuses 
10 years ago but today that's not...

But if you make this change: "doing rebol in java instead of C or 
C++" -> "doing another rebol in java in addition to the current C/C++ 
version"

Then you can get rid of bad points 1, 2 and 4. And add a good point: 
5) R3 for Android.

It's the replacement idea that is bad. We can make a vaguely REBOL-like 
language for Java that is good enough to interoperate with the C-based 
R3, but throwing away the R3 codebase like you said and starting 
over would kill the language and make us wait another 5-10 years. 
The "instead of" part is a BAD IDEA.

BrianH R3 is stuck in alpha since 3 years and it will take 3 more 
years to be officially released ... and mean while we keep a design 
based on  90's year design  i mean it implicates too a lot of difficulties 
that can't be overcomed easyly

R3 is not stuck in alpha. What you are doing is suggesting throwing 
away a codebase and starting over. Perl 6 did that and they are still 
in alpha after 10 years.

BrianH yes that can be a side project ... but it have to be seriously 
done not another abandoned clone project that convince no one and 
get no support...

BrianH but what is the purpose to have a deposited thing no one want 
to use ...

So? That is not an excuse to do the number-one worst thing that you 
can ever do as a programmer.

I have no problem with there being a semi-compatible R3 clone based 
on Java, and if I buy an Android phone I will start such a clone. 
But it will not replace R3 because that code is useful for many people 
*now*, and doesn't have any of the significant downsides of the JVM 
and its ilk, which is part of what makes it useful. And any clone 
that is based on (L)GPL can't share code with R3, so anyone who wants 
to help the community can't contribute it it.

brianH thing is no one consider rebol as a reliable programing solution 
.. apart a hundred of crazy us ...  you know sometimes the marketing 
thing is better than the truth ask microsoft about it :)

and in that hundred of fanatics you have only 10 to 20 guys participating 
to the REBOL project actively ... personally i don't feel motivated 
to help apporting my know how to a project that will feed someone 
else without retribution i think as american you understand my point 
buissness is buissness ... I don't work for free for a project that 
will bring money to someone else.. that's plain and simple ... And 
it will be different if it was organised as a foundation people give 
the money they want and then the monney is splitted to remunerate 
the contributions according to their importance ...

I have no problem with doing what it takes to get REBOL interoperating 
with Java and .NET (particularly Silverlight). It's just a matter 
of resources. It's the "instead of" idea that is bad.

I don't work for free for a project that will bring money to someone 
else

 - So much for any community, free software or open source project 
 then. Stick to proprietary software or work-for-hire.

brianH we are not anough to end properly R3 in a time span that don't 
mean a decade ... so the instead of is in the actual situation a 
logical thing we can't be doing 3 kind of rebol VM at same time ...

all i can do in rebol is selling the  programs i do using rebol... 
but what credibility i have imagine my clients how they work they 
give me specs i propose them to do it in rebol they say no because 
if you get any problem we the client will not be able to get easyly 
a substitute to you  to retake your work and get it enhanced ...

Since you haven't been participating as much, you don't know how 
far along we are, so you don't understand how incredibly dumb it 
would be to scrap the code base and start over. We are only working 
on one VM. If someone else wants to start another project, fine, 
but they should have a good case for allocating the resources, and 
not do anything to preclude others from helping them.

If I start up a project for R3 interoperability with Java would you 
help? Don't worry, I won't use a (L)GPL license so you won't be prevented 
from working on other projects with the code you write.

if i can if i have access to the whole source code, but i will try 
...  most of the time i need to see the big picture to get ideas 
on how to proceed ... a mono C# clone intent have been tryed 4 years 
ago it was spirit then sudently the author disapeared and that's 
it ...

Scala is the second-most popular language on the Java platform, in 
terms of job postings. It is basically Java's version of F#, but 
better. Clojure is a somewhat Common-Lisp-like language for Java. 
Both of these languages exist because of how breathtakingly bad Java 
sucks for everything Java is used for.

ok so i would run for a rebol on scala :)

Scala is a functional-oop programming language, so it can do everything 
Java can do and a lot more, plus strong concurrency support that 
Java drastically lacks. Its syntax has nothing in common with Java.

mono the opened C# doesn't have a complete compatibility with official 
.net thing  and it's slower than the real thing ...

oop means it's a you can do objects but you are not forced to do 
this ...  it's like php ?

It was a bad picture. Now I need mind bleach.

silverlight isn't it a for windows only Microsoft intent to replace 
flash ?

Silverlight works on Windows, Mac, Windows Phone 7, Meego, and Linux 
(as Moonlight). You are underestimating the Mono project: They have 
a lot of funding and support.

Scala is supported by many Java development tools, mostly IDEs. This 
is a really off-topic conversation. The whole thing should have been 
in the Other Languages group.

ok so basing rebol on moonlight/silverlight or rebol would be a plus 
?

ok the main idea behind my ask was more a way to say can't be the 
rebol VM inner source code can be more effective ?

Basing some REBOL-related tools on Silverlight and/or the DLR would 
be a plus. Keep in mind that we don't have to make the whole of REBOL 
run within the JVM or DLR - REBOL is great for making development 
tools, which can be used to generate Silverlight applications, just 
like they generate Flash applications. Or R3 could be used as a library 
by Java, or as a supplemental developemtn tool, or a code generator, 
whatever. Remember, most of REBOL is a set of awesome libraries and 
dialects. REBOL without most of DO or AGG is still useful.

ok so we have a rebol base in a language that means alot of work 
to have it on windows / linux/ macOSX  and some mobile thingies

but then we have extension/ modules what ever things based on moonlight 
and C# easyly portable but then obviously the part that would be 
a better fit to moonlight would be the VID / draw part ... and can 
that really coexists with the rest of rebol ?

let's take an example could a video stream be displayed by a rebol/moonlight 
thing ? using rebol natural easy network  layer to feed the moonlight 
extension for displyaing at screen ?

It's only a lot of work if you add it up. Noone will need all of 
this. The small part that they need will be a smaller bit of work. 
And others will need different things, and will do their own work. 
As long as people contribute back to the community and don't say 
things like "I don't work for free for a project that will bring 
money to someone else", without realizing that you will befefit from 
those other people's contributions, then we will all benefit.

Silverlight and Moonlight are good. If you want to make a REBOL browser 
plugin, they are the thing to beat. Flash is not as good, and not 
really competition if it weren't for the installed base.

R3 is best as its own thing. But it can be used to supplement applications 
in other languages, like Lua. Or it can be used to generate applications 
for other platforms, as a development tool.

could then moonlight and mono be interfaced with other side libraries 
like opengl  can i make a part of my interface as an opengl display 
etc??

Or we can use R3 to solve problems that need solving, where having 
a solution is more important than how. REBOL is great at solving 
problems quickly.

With Silverlight/Moonlight, you don't need a side interface, it has 
a GUI. That GUI will be accellerated by OpenGL or whatever is available. 
With Mono, you can integrate anything.

brianh right ... to the problem can rebol display formated dynamic 
text using Draw/agg dialect it only took me a steeve and 3 yeart 
to apport the solution ... and lot of discutions ...

and when you look at the solution that's so evident that you are 
amazed no one thought about that before ... mainly area-tc and viva-rebol 
are splitted in 3 you have the color text engine based on color-code.r 
carl script but instead of generating html it generates draw code 
in a block then it's rendered to a vid face using it's draw block 
 for the ihm the feel block is used on the same vid face ...

and having a proper resume of what is done is hard ...

Oh, then this conversation is more off-topic in this group than I 
thought. Well, here's what you missed:

- The R3 GUI is being actively developed by commercial developers, 
and it is much faster than the approach you just mentioned.

- We have had a couple releases in the last week, with more to come. 
In other words, we're not stuck.

- The GUI code has been moved to the host, and is thus open source.

- Everyone involved is hard at work, communicating, and busy. This 
includes Carl.
- All of your criticisms of the project are outdated.

Check the other !REBOL3 groups before you make any suggestions to 
throw out a code base that is already being used for commercial development.

and i clearly foresee the actual i port 10 times the code  of rebol 
isn't a suitable way for futur...

does R3 have a mezz called  'LAST?


similar to 'TAIL? I find it usefull... it returns if we are AT last 
item in a series.  

while [not last? series] [.... series: next series]

ahh yes.  do you think that last?  might be a viable official alternate 
notation?   just as empty? is an alternate for tail?

Maybe - make a wish in Curecode :)

but he might not have tought of LAST?   sometimes these little things 
escape us, since we implement this or that within a current "frame 
of mind" ;-)

The change would need to be backported to 2.7.8, so we need a ticket.

in any way, i guess that anyone interested in them can simply ask 
me here. if you think there may be a real interest outside of this 
group... then it would be worth uploading them to youtube instead 
of keeping them in a obscure web site :)

so what is required to organize a DevCon 2010 ?

its a 12 person max event... open to anyone, who wants to help with 
REBOL adoption, platform growth.

It will be a tiny chat you know, you don't miss something.
We have better debates here

Maybe we should have a central place for all  the devcon videos ... 
I was just looking at Yahoo's developer movie collection  ( JS and 
the YUI )

Alright 2010 is almost over now. Why don't we set something up virtually 
and "just do it"?  I just had a Teamviewer http://www.teamviewer.com/download/index.aspx?os=windows
session with some people from Singapore and Taiwan from California 
and it worked flawlessly. You guys sound like you are all doing some 
very interesting things.

it would be neet to setup, I think that setting up an official contest 
to ask for a date & time amongst all rebolers as well as proposed 
demos and topics would be a good first start.


I don't thing this should be planned for 2010 though, the holidays 
are here and I know that I'm not available until january, already, 
and I presume this is a common issue for all of us now.

There's the ReBorCon in a few months

as long as it has AGG it would work. though its possible the plugin 
is old enough for a bit of the code to need some fixes.

Thanks. That's a gem.